Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Seiterman]

Here are a few of my thoughts in response to some recent nominations;

• Blissey/Chansey- While Chansey has much better bulk on both sides, she's not really much better as a special wall than Blissey if at all. The difference in how they take special attacks is miniscule in most situations, so they both perform that job admirably. Chansey can take physical attacks here and there, but lots of physical Pokemon beat her anyway (particularly Fighting-types.) Chansey definitely outperforms Blissey nine out of ten times, but Blissey isn't heavily outperformed so often. She has benefits in passive recovery and usable SpA (frying Ferrothorn with Flamethrower on the switch is always nice,) which give perfectly valid reasons to use Blissey. Meanwhile, the weaknesses they share are basically the same. Both struggle with strong physical moves and are generally set-up fodder. Neither wants to take a Knock Off, nor do they fare well against common users of the move, so that's a moot point. Special Walls are still a great asset for slower, stallier teams, and this is basically as good as you can get. Both of these mons are fine as they are ranked.
• Hippowdon- I can certainly see this guy going up to A-. As a physical wall, Hippowdon excels. He's certainly let down by sub-par special bulk and average/poor defensive typing, but the ability to shut down physical attackers so well is incredible.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

sorry if this is off topic, but when can we nominate new pokes to be ranked?

 

[rachet67]

Wait, are we discussing B- as well, or only B and B+?

Just B and B+.

Mew B---> B-. The only thing that Mew can really do in this meta is act as a defogger. However, despite its enormous movepool, its niche is, for the most part, taken up by the combination of Skarmory, Latias, and Latios. Similarly to Mew, Skarmory can set up stealth rock, phaze, and has access to taunt (not that it often runs it). However, Skarmory has much better physical bulk, and a typing that allows it to switch into nearly every stealth rock setter. The one thing Mew has over Skarmory is speed. However, if you're going for a speedy defogger, Latias or Latios are generally better options. Latias has much better bulk on the special side, and its defensive bulk isn't that much worse. Additionally, its dragon typing gives it many more opportunities to switch in. The only real reason to use Mew is if you absolutely can't use skarmory, and have nothing else that can set up rocks on your team, giving it a pretty small niche.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

sorry if this is off topic, but when can we nominate new pokes to be ranked?

anytime. as long as you are nominating it to the ranks we are discussing.

 

[Kay [Old]]

See, I don't like this argument at all. Why is Blissey or Chansey your switch-in to Knock Off? Surely there are better things on any team to take a Knock Off than the Pokemon with base 5 Defense or whatever.

There are some. Mandibuzz, Venusaur, a lot of the more defensive Pokemon who use Knock off as a utility move instead of an attack, and who don't nearly always carry it. Blissey can come in on those Pokemon and start healing on them, Chansey can't until you're sure that it doesn't use those. Chansey however is still much better - there's a lot of special attackers who carry random physical attacks, not to mention Chansey can take Psyshocks while Blissey really can't.

 

[Ender Wiggin]

We had, like, ten pages of discussion on Chansey vs. Blissey.

Nearly everything that commonly carries Knock Off beats Blissey anyway. The only times where Knock Off is a huge concern is stuff that only uses it as a utility move, like Tentacruel.

Without its item, Chansey is just a slightly worse Blissey anyway. Their stats are very similar.

I won't argue the first two as I wouldn't know but.

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 241-285 (33.7 - 39.9%) -- 30.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 202-238 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chansey in Sun: 298-352 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

That's a pretty big difference with and without the Eviolite I wouldn't call it slightly worse.

 

[Srn]

Ugh finally

Now, what we've all been waiting for, Hippowdon for A-

How the hell this guy ended up in B+, I will honestly never know.
But this guy is great. He has reliable recovery, consistently sets rocks, can phaze, and it actually hurts things with eq. It's not set up fodder in the slightest, his eq can actually do over 70% to pokemon weak to it, and that's great. But lets get down to his real strengths.
The set I'm going off of is a spread I like: 252hp / 60def / 196 sp. def (Impish) I also run Eq/rock slide/SR/slack off

So lets see what this guy checks strongly:

Hide

Aegislash: Must watch out for crumbler sets though, you need to be at full health to take them on.
Charizard-Y: Have to switch in, but you can eat a solarbeam and fire back a rock slide if needed.
Charizard-X: Can phaze or eq, you pretty much manhandle him. Just scout for bulky wisp sets.
Thundurus: Watch out for nasty plot hidden powers or random grass knots, you pretty much manhandle this guy too.
Pinsir-mega: He can't set up on you if you carry rock slide, but with the above spread you lose at +2.

Bisharp: EQ AWWWAAAYYYY
Garchomp: you're pretty solid against this guy, don't switch in on a boosted one though.
Heatran: Read Bisharp
Kyurem-B: Run far away.
Landorus-i: Don't try and take him on without ice fang
Lando-T: You sorta force a stalemate with this one, unless its SD, which is rare.
Manaphy: See Kyu-b
Rotom-W: See Kyu-b
Talonflame: You can sit back and rock slide for the most part
Tyranitar-mega: Read Bisharp
Venusaur-Mega: See Kyu-b

Azumarill: See Kyu-b
Dragonite: I'd be wary of rock sliding
Excadrill: Watch out for boosted, otherwise you win.
Gengar: You can't do much, run
Greninja: See Kyu-b
Gyarados-mega: See Kyu-b
Keldeo: See Kyu-b
Lati@s: See Kyu-b
Mamoswine: You probably shouldn't
Mandibuzz: Sort of a stalemate here
Mawile-Mega: You're one of the best checks around, Read bisharp
Scizor-Mega: You actually lose to bulky SD variants, but other than that you can outstall.
Tyranitar: You don't even have to worry about ice beam, Read Bisharp

Clefable: You lose
Conkeldurr: You don't do much because eq damage is healed off from drain punch, and you don't want to toxic it.
Gyarados: Mega Variants win, unless you phaze
Skarmory: Stalemate, unless you somehow predict a roost and eq, which doesn't make a difference because roost probably heals more than an eq does anyway.
Terrakion: You're one of the best checks around, Read Bisharp

As you can see, Hippowdon wins against a good majority of the S/A+ pokemon and a lot of A/A- pokemon as well. Just his sheer neutral bulk and reliable recovery allow him to always carry his weight, and checking such important pokemon like charizard-X, Aegislash, and Thundurus is a job only our hungry hippo can do. He strongly checks a myriad of pokemon while also providing rocks support, and with reliable recovery he's really here to stay. As long as you keep him away from powerful special attacks that 2HKO him, he will always be able to neuter one big threat before being neutered himself.

The two only real flaws that hold him back:
Sub-par sp. def
If you get worn down, you cannot switch back in on anything unless you avoid the 2HKO with the amount of hp you currently have.
Sometimes, his slow speed really gets in the way of timing your recovery, but these few flaws barely compare his strengths.
Hippowdon for A- (if not A)

 

[Krubby]

(this is my first time doing this so sorry if i get this wrong) Anyway, I nominate Politoed for B. I feel bad doing this because I mainly use a rain team myself, but let's be honest, rain teams just aren't that great in this metagame. Although it's true that Poli has a niche that only it can fill AND it can perform it's function simply by switching in, it's really not that much of a threat. It's somewhat bulky and can hit pretty hard but it's slow and with the weather nerf, you're likely going to be forced into giving it a damp stone so you can't run the scarf set from last gen. Of course, it does give a whole lot of support to your other pokemon if your rain team is well built but Politoed itself is just yet another mediocre water type outside of its ability to make it rain. It still is the only one that can do its job and does it well without having terrible stat making it still deserve a B, but it just doesn't do enough nor does its niche due enough for it to get a B+. (ugh, this was probably pretty terrible)

 

[alexwolf]

I forgot to mention one change, but Mamoswine has dropped to A-.

As for changes on B+ and B here is my take:

Hippowdon : B+ ---> A-
Heracross (Mega): B ---> B+
Scolipede: B ---> B+
Slowbro: B ---> B+
Sylveon: B ---> B+
Suicune: B ---> B+
Zapdos: B+ ---> A-
Togekiss: B+ ---> B

Will add some reasoning later...

 

[Aragorn the King]

Here are my opinions:

: It's way too bulky on both spectrums, and can do its thing on every pokemon without Knock Off or strong Fighting coverage. I think A- suits it.

: Fighting and fire moves have both increased lately, and this makes it hard for Ferrothorn. It still does its job well, but to me it doesn't seem that effective anymore. I'd place it at B.

: VERY underrated. However, I do think B+ is right for it, as its defense is a huge issue. Sure, it has Will-o-wisp, but it still can never switch in.

: Evil pokemon. If you are slower than it and are not immune to poison or do not have a sound move/infiltrator, you will lose. Even if you have ice beam, you will lose. This is extremely aggravating, but it still is beaten by any fast special pokemon. My hatred of it wants me to move it up, but I guess, like Rotom-W, it can stay (at B+).

: What everyone else said. Really should be A- at least.

: Great wallbreaker, but its bad defensive typing, overall mediocre bulk, and unreliable or relatively weak STAB prevent it from being A-. Should be B+.

: If you want a pokemon to provide easy support for rain, you need to use Politoed. It is extremely reliable, has good support moves, and can hit at a decent power. Its specs set is also worth a mention, as it's similar to Charizard-Y, although it cannot switch moves. I think it's B+.

: What? (Not being sarcastic) Can someone tell me why this is so low? It's clerical set is good and reliable, it can defog, it can do Paraflinching tactics, and can run a full bulky set. It is hurt by its SR weakness, but that clearly isn't a reason to drop things. It'd put it at A, but A- is okay.

: What Trickzio said. I definitely would support A-.

: Its revenge killing set is really good, but its sash gets broken more easily now thanks to priority. Also, assault vest means its attack power isn't as good as before. It's still a strong mon though, easy B.

: Not much experience with this, but let me see. It seems to be pretty powerful, and also is the bulkiest rapid spinner. It seems pretty good, but I don't know enough about it. I'd leave it at B.

: Yes. I dare to agree with Kairyu_Gen1. It just seems to me to be outclassed by Chansey. This has been argued so much, so I don't really want to repeat everything, but I'd push for anything from C to B-. It just isn't that good.

: Very powerful and decently fast, but has a bad STAB combination and is not that bulky. Perfect for B.

: Similar to M-Medicham. Hits HARD, but has a bad defensive typing. However, it has hard hitting stab options to use, unlike medicham. But again, it lacks priority. I could see it stay at B or go to B+.

: This gen, it's basically the definition of B. It can do many things, but doesn't particularly excel at any. It used to be an easy way to get around Genesect, but now that isn't a relevent argument. It's still good, but not spectacular.

: Really good. Works superbly with a core involving Lando-T and Rotom-W. It doesn't hit THAT hard, but it hits hard enough, and has decent coverage. Also, its speed is excellent. It seems to be better than other B ranks, so maybe B+, but maybe B. I'm not completely sure.

: Similar to Jirachi. It has a worse typing, but has much more options. If you want a pokemon that can use Scald, Defog, Psychic, and Softboiled, Mew's your pokemon. It can learn pretty much any defensive or offensive or support combination, and so excels more when its set is unknown. Once the kind of Mew is known, it's not hard to beat, but its versatility earns it B rank.

: I'd easily put it at B+. It can baton pass defense boosts to a physically frail pokemon, baton pass attack boosts to physical attackers, and at the same time boost their speed. And, it can also run a great offensive set with nice coverage.

: Regenerator is such a good ability. Plus, without Genesect, there will be less uturns and thunderbolts to ruin its day. With assault vest it's bulky on both sides, and it actually has an offensive presence.

: It deserves to be where it is or go down to B-. It does what it does well, it's just a matter of being outclassed (sorry, I hate that word, but here it's kinda true) by mega blastoise. However, if you already have a mega, Starmie is your go to spinner if you already have too many Fighting/Fire/Water/Ground weaknesses, and so Excadrill wouldn't fit. It's probably B.

: I agree with Punchshroom, B is way too low for Suicune. I'd support B+, or maybe even A-.

: The specs set hits like a monster, and the cleric set is reliable and has offensive power. It is however hurt by its low defense. I think B is okay, but I agree with alexwolf that it could go to B+ due to its access to a sound move, bypassing Gliscor's subs, as well as being a reliable cleric.

: I have little experience with this, but it seems pretty good. It seems like it would act like a regenerating pivot like Tangrowth, while having better offense and less defense (but still more special defense). I won't argue because I know very little, but B+ seems plausible.

: It's a very good pokemon that has one major flaw in its 4x weakness to Stealth Rock. However, as we see with Charizard, that isn't an argument in itself. It is very Talonflame/Pinsir weak, but then again so is Pinsir, and that's S ranked. I feel like its major flaws aren't enough to warrant it being B, It's so good once it sets up.

I thought this time would never come...a good time to nominate Hydreigon for B Rank again.

The intruduction of Fairies and the special nerf did hurt Hydreigon's viability a bit, but the Dark Typ Buff allows it to spam that Dark Pulse without much worry. What makes Hydreigon so threatening is, that it has no 'true' counter thanks to its insane movepool. In other words, nothing really can safely switch into that thing. Looking at Hydreigon's stats it has decent speed and bulk but great offense which allows it to go mixed as well.

Special Moves: Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Dark Pulse, Earth Power, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Flash Cannon, Surf
Physical Moves: Outrage, Crunch, Superpower, Earthquake, Iron Tail, Head Smash, U-Turn
Other Notable Moves: Thunderwave, Roost, Substitute, Work Up

Not to mention, Hydreigon can pull of a great number of different sets: Specs, SpecialScarf, Expert Belt, MixScarf, Life-Orb, Bulky Attacker.
I am sure there are more, but basicly it is really easy to fit into a team and it does its job realiable enough.

I could agree to that, but I personally feel like it's more B- esque, as its weaknesses overpower its strong points. If I could nominate it for B- I would, but I can't.

 

[asterat]

Hippowdon still needs to go to A+. Find another pokemon that can beat all of S tier and half of A+ tier and he can go there too.


Also can some mod provide reasoning to why megas can't be combined with base forms, some earlier posts show this as well (including one of mine)

 

[Jukain]

Chansey needs to move up to A-. It is extremely difficult to take down and can provide loads of support. The standard set atm has to be SR / Soft-Boiled / SToss / status, SR cos Chan always gets a chance to set it up due to how much it walls and forces out. It just walls large portions of so many teams with its insane special bulk and even decent physical bulk. It handles top special threats like Megazard Y and Latios with ease. Chansey is just such a good wall that provides so much for the team. Setup bait? Sure, when it can't Toxic/TWave the threat, and stall doesn't carry Unaware Clefable 95% of the time. Knock Off? Mega Venu can absorb it, and if it can't there are plenty of things you can use to take a Knock Off (i.e. have reliable recovery). Everything points to Chansey as a veritable A- threat.

I don't think Zapdos is A-. As much as I love it, the loss of Mega Luc has hit it hard. It loses a big threat to wall. It bears the curse of a SR-weak Defogger, severely limiting its switch-in opportunities because it has to be the one to switch into Stealth Rock. I mean, it does some great things, but it isn't A- good.

---

Alright, now for something kind of big: I'm proposing Blissey be dropped to C Rank. Blissey in itself is not a bad Pokemon, but it's 100% outclassed by Chansey. Halcyon. already addressed the Knock Off argument, so I won't rehash. Another advantage commonly brought up is Special Attack. However, Blissey struggles to do much actual damage with Flamethrower > Seismic Toss, which is pretty much the only special attack you would consider. Moreover, Chansey is able to function as both a better special wall than Blissey, but also a mixed wall. Due to the Eviolite, Chansey's Defense stat is actually very usable. Blissey is extraordinarily less bulky than Chansey on the physical side, it's not even funny. Random comparison calc:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 364-430 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 499-588 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

This is just one example -- you see Chansey taking 14 percentage points less (including Leftovers) from physical attacks on average. That's huge -- it becomes an opportunity cost to use Blissey, as you're losing the capability to take a whole manner of non-CB/Fighting/boosted physical attacks, and not just be murdered by the attack. It gains the approximate equivalent of neutral 100/100 Defense, which would be consider pretty bulky. As an example of special bulk:

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 175-208 (24.8 - 29.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 212-251 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Chansey takes unboosted, neutral special attacks around the same on average as Blissey. The difference becomes more apparent when you see boosted attacks:

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 376-444 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 313-369 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

as well as super effective attacks:

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 213-252 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 40.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 255-302 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- 89.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So, overall, we can safely say that Chansey is a better overall special wall than Blissey. If you calculate using the minimum damages, Blissey appears bulkier, but due to the wider ranges of damage for attacks against Blissey, you can calculate that on average, Chansey always performs at least the same or better.

Based on this proof, it is obvious that Chansey is in a whole new league from Blissey when it comes to taking physical attacks, and performs at least the same or better against special threats depending on the attack. With other supposed "advantages" of Blissey refuted, it can be concluded that Chansey outclasses Blissey. Look at the definition of C Rank:

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

Blissey is completely eclipsed in OU by Chansey. Therefore, it fits the definition of C Rank.

Don't want to take my word for it? Well, then let's look at the SPL usage stats. Cumulatively, Chansey has 11 SPL uses, placing it at #21 (9% usage). Cumulatively, Blissey has 1 SPL use, placing it at #66 (1% usage). This is where Pokemon such as Nidoqueen, Smeargle, Shaymin, and Moltres are in usage. This clearly shows that the top players rate Chansey far above Blissey. Blissey belongs nowhere near B Rank.

 

[Salemance]

Hippowdon still needs to go to A+. Find another pokemon that can beat all of S tier and half of A+ tier and he can go there too.


Also can some mod provide reasoning to why megas can't be combined with base forms, some earlier posts show this as well (including one of mine)

As much as I love Hippowdon...if Skarmory isn't higher than A- Rank (and everyone seems to love him) then I don't think the mighty Sand Hippo can move there either (even if I find him better).

 

[Meru]

Hippowdon also thrives in a Defog-friendly meta. I'd go as far as to say Hippowdon is the wall most susceptible to Spikes, due to resisting SR and being grounded. So in a meta where they hardly see any use due to them not being worth it most of the time, Hippowdon thrives on eating up half of the S/A+ tier. Not being 4x weak to Ice is a godsend too. A rank might be more appropriate for it.

EDIT: Skarmory is only A- because it has a hard time fitting on teams that aren't stall due to it losing too much momentum, and spikes suck in this meta. Hippowdon is able to be used on a much larger variety of teams ranging from semi-stall and balanced since it is much harder to use as set-up bait and can't be freely Volt Switched on the same way Skarmory can.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

: Fighting and fire moves have both increased lately, and this makes it hard for Ferrothorn. It still does its job well, but to me it doesn't seem that effective anymore. I'd place it at B. Fighting type moves have increased? Because I've not been seeing it. The users of Fighting Type moves have always been pretty obvious, it's just random HP Fires Ferrothorn really needs to look out for. Still a very solid mon with great typing.

: VERY underrated. However, I do think B+ is right for it, as its defense is a huge issue. Sure, it has Will-o-wisp, but it still can never switch in. Honestly, not being able to switch in to much isn't that much of an issue IMO, not when (multiple) bulky slow pivots are so easy to fit on a team. Lucario is frail on both sides and never had an issue being completely broken. Gardevoir has really good special bulk anyway, and few things can safely switch in to it due to Will-o-Wisp, a nuclear STAB (that bypasses subs) and good coverage.

: Great wallbreaker, but its bad defensive typing, overall mediocre bulk, and unreliable or relatively weak STAB prevent it from being A-. Should be B+. 90% accuracy isn't that bad. Mega Medicham's HJK is ridiculously powerful and its Psycho Cut can do pretty big damage on a lot of stuff too, especially Venusaur. As a wallbreaker, Medicham is just absurdly good IMO, if you're sitting in front of nearly anything below 100 base speed or anything that's paralyzed there's pretty much nothing the opponent can do other than hope you mis-predict their switch. It was B+ before Mega Lucario was banned and I think it should be A- now.

: What? (Not being sarcastic) Can someone tell me why this is so low? It's clerical set is good and reliable, it can defog, it can do Paraflinching tactics, and can run a full bulky set. It is hurt by its SR weakness, but that clearly isn't a reason to drop things. It'd put it at A, but A- is okay. Its paraflinching set is honestly awful, it's not that effective against decent players. As a Cleric it's pretty good, but I think it's best as a bulky Nasty Plot attacker.

: Its revenge killing set is really good, but its sash gets broken more easily now thanks to priority. Also, assault vest means its attack power isn't as good as before. It's still a strong mon though, easy B. I personally don't like Alakazam because it's pretty much only capable of revenge killing/paralyzing one thing per match. B seems fine for it though, because it's really good at guaranteeing one revenge kill per match which can be pretty important.

: Not much experience with this, but let me see. It seems to be pretty powerful, and also is the bulkiest rapid spinner. It seems pretty good, but I don't know enough about it. I'd leave it at B. It is hands down the best spinner in the game but it takes up the mega slot, however it's good against Deo-D because it can't be spin blocked, period, due to its boosted Dark Pulse.

: Very powerful and decently fast, but has a bad STAB combination and is not that bulky. Perfect for B. Its STABs alone give pretty good neutral coverage, with the only relevant threats resisting them being Skarmory (Wild Charge,) Trevenant, Gourgeist, and Gengar.

: Similar to M-Medicham. Hits HARD, but has a bad defensive typing. However, it has hard hitting stab options to use, unlike medicham. But again, it lacks priority. I could see it stay at B or go to B+. Simply for being able to OHKO Deo-D and just being a good check to many things on Deosharp teams, it should be B+ or even A- because those teams make up something like half the upper ladder right now. Lack of priority is hardly an issue when your main role is wall breaker, or when you're that bulky.

: Really good. Works superbly with a core involving Lando-T and Rotom-W. It doesn't hit THAT hard, but it hits hard enough, and has decent coverage. Also, its speed is excellent. It seems to be better than other B ranks, so maybe B+, but maybe B. I'm not completely sure. Spectacularly good pivot, I would support B+ but I don't have a lot of experience with it.

: The specs set hits like a monster, and the cleric set is reliable and has offensive power. It is however hurt by its low defense. I think B is okay, but I agree with alexwolf that it could go to B+ due to its access to a sound move, bypassing Gliscor's subs, as well as being a reliable cleric. Fairy is an absolutely amazing typing and Sylveon is one of the only good bulky fairy types. Togekiss is good but it has an SR weakness, and Clefable needs to set-up before its offensive power can compare to Sylveon's. Its HP means its physical defense isn't that bad, 252/252+ sets allow it to check or counter a lot of physical attackers. I agree with B+.

Replies in bold.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Chansey needs to move up to A-. It is extremely difficult to take down and can provide loads of support. The standard set atm has to be SR / Soft-Boiled / SToss / status, SR cos Chan always gets a chance to set it up due to how much it walls and forces out. It just walls large portions of so many teams with its insane special bulk and even decent physical bulk. It handles top special threats like Megazard Y and Latios with ease. Chansey is just such a good wall that provides so much for the team. Setup bait? Sure, when it can't Toxic/TWave the threat, and stall doesn't carry Unaware Clefable 95% of the time. Knock Off? Mega Venu can absorb it, and if it can't there are plenty of things you can use to take a Knock Off (i.e. have reliable recovery). Everything points to Chansey as a veritable A- threat.

I don't think Zapdos is A-. As much as I love it, the loss of Mega Luc has hit it hard. It loses a big threat to wall. It bears the curse of a SR-weak Defogger, severely limiting its switch-in opportunities because it has to be the one to switch into Stealth Rock. I mean, it does some great things, but it isn't A- good.

---

Alright, now for something kind of big: I'm proposing Blissey be dropped to C Rank. Blissey in itself is not a bad Pokemon, but it's 100% outclassed by Chansey. Halcyon. already addressed the Knock Off argument, so I won't rehash. Another advantage commonly brought up is Special Attack. However, Blissey struggles to do much actual damage with Flamethrower > Seismic Toss, which is pretty much the only special attack you would consider. Moreover, Chansey is able to function as both a better special wall than Blissey, but also a mixed wall. Due to the Eviolite, Chansey's Defense stat is actually very usable. Blissey is extraordinarily less bulky than Chansey on the physical side, it's not even funny. Random comparison calc:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 364-430 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 499-588 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

This is just one example -- you see Chansey taking 14 percentage points less (including Leftovers) from physical attacks on average. That's huge -- it becomes an opportunity cost to use Blissey, as you're losing the capability to take a whole manner of non-CB/Fighting/boosted physical attacks, and not just be murdered by the attack. It gains the approximate equivalent of neutral 100/100 Defense, which would be consider pretty bulky. As an example of special bulk:

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 175-208 (24.8 - 29.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 212-251 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Chansey takes unboosted, neutral special attacks around the same on average as Blissey. The difference becomes more apparent when you see boosted attacks:

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 376-444 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 313-369 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

as well as super effective attacks:

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 213-252 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 40.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 255-302 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- 89.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So, overall, we can safely say that Chansey is a better overall special wall than Blissey. If you calculate using the minimum damages, Blissey appears bulkier, but due to the wider ranges of damage for attacks against Blissey, you can calculate that on average, Chansey always performs at least the same or better.

Based on this proof, it is obvious that Chansey is in a whole new league from Blissey when it comes to taking physical attacks, and performs at least the same or better against special threats depending on the attack. With other supposed "advantages" of Blissey refuted, it can be concluded that Chansey outclasses Blissey. Look at the definition of C Rank:

Blissey is completely eclipsed in OU by Chansey. Therefore, it fits the definition of C Rank.

Don't want to take my word for it? Well, then let's look at the SPL usage stats. Cumulatively, Chansey has 11 SPL uses, placing it at #21 (9% usage). Cumulatively, Blissey has 1 SPL use, placing it at #66 (1% usage). This is where Pokemon such as Nidoqueen, Smeargle, Shaymin, and Moltres are in usage. This clearly shows that the top players rate Chansey far above Blissey. Blissey belongs nowhere near B Rank.

I definitely agree with Blissey and Chansey.
Also, Mandibuzz is an A ranked defogger weak to Stealth Rocks. Sure it's more bulky and has Foul Play, but Zapdos does have an offensive presence. I feel generally Mandibuzz is superior, but I don't think they deserve to have two ranks between them. Zapdos is also useful for 100% countering Pinsir, which Mandibuzz cannot do.

As much as I love Hippowdon...if Skarmory isn't higher than A- Rank (and everyone seems to love him) then I don't think the mighty Sand Hippo can move there either (even if I find him better).

Specially defensive is probably Hippo's best set, in which it's completely different than Skarmory. It has mixed bulk, which Skarmory can't brag.

 

[LoDart210]

Mega manectric definitely deserves a b+ rank.

That dude is no slouch, sporting those 135/135 special attacking stats

With lando they form an amazing intimidate volt turn core that's really aggressive and able to hit both sides of the spectrum.

Also, on its own manectric is an excellent early game sweeper with base form's lightning rod, while also a good support mon with t-wave, light screen, rain dance, and even snarl if you want some kind of an anti work up (and can't get HP grass/ice for in game)

Rarely disappoints

 

[Assertingfire3]

I agree with scolipede becoming B+

Scoliped was always a pretty good hazard setter and baton passer. It even got ou analysis because of how good it was at thoses sets. With advent of sixth gen its hazard set has been nerfed but its baton pass has got even better with its new hidden ability speed boost! With speed boost scolipede can now pass speed boosts along with some defense and attack boosts. Scolipede also got a shiny new base 100 attack stat allowing it to also work as a sweeper, but i must say that scolipede does not make the best sweeper. But a big buff is the new resistance to the new fairy type. These traits make scolipede a wonderful adition to your team.

 

[Salemance]

I definitely agree with Blissey and Chansey.
Also, Mandibuzz is an A ranked defogger weak to Stealth Rocks. Sure it's more bulky and has Foul Play, but Zapdos does have an offensive presence. I feel generally Mandibuzz is superior, but I don't think they deserve to have two ranks between them. Zapdos is also useful for 100% countering Pinsir, which Mandibuzz cannot do.

Specially defensive is probably Hippo's best set, in which it's completely different than Skarmory. It has mixed bulk, which Skarmory can't brag.

Oh believe me, I know it has better bulk than Skarm (highlighted that in an earlier post) so don't need to preach bout it.

And I'm all for a A rank for Hippowdon, but if its just now bout to get A-, then that makes me hesitant.

 

[schlondark]

Lilligant For B- or C+

Quiver dance + Sleep powder is a good way to garner boost, Its boosted Petal Dance can ravage through unprepared teams due to OU's high usage of water mons *cough* Rotom-W *cough*

Holding it back is its mediocre starting speed, its defensively-bad grass type, and has a very shallow attacking movepool. However, I feel that Quiverpowder is a somewhat viable, if small niche in OU.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Lilligant For B- or C+

Quiver dance + Sleep powder is a good way to garner boost, Its boosted Petal Dance can ravage through unprepared teams due to OU's high usage of water mons *cough* Rotom-W *cough*

Holding it back is its mediocre starting speed, its defensively-bad grass type, and has a very shallow attacking movepool. However, I feel that Quiverpowder is a somewhat viable, if small niche in OU.

You can only nominate things for B or B+ now. You'll have to wait for Lilligant (and tbh I don't think it's worth C+, but we'll see).
Also, it's Quiver Dance, not quiverpowder.

 

[rachet67]

Chansey needs to move up to A-. It is extremely difficult to take down and can provide loads of support. The standard set atm has to be SR / Soft-Boiled / SToss / status, SR cos Chan always gets a chance to set it up due to how much it walls and forces out. It just walls large portions of so many teams with its insane special bulk and even decent physical bulk. It handles top special threats like Megazard Y and Latios with ease. Chansey is just such a good wall that provides so much for the team. Setup bait? Sure, when it can't Toxic/TWave the threat, and stall doesn't carry Unaware Clefable 95% of the time. Knock Off? Mega Venu can absorb it, and if it can't there are plenty of things you can use to take a Knock Off (i.e. have reliable recovery). Everything points to Chansey as a veritable A- threat.

I don't think Zapdos is A-. As much as I love it, the loss of Mega Luc has hit it hard. It loses a big threat to wall. It bears the curse of a SR-weak Defogger, severely limiting its switch-in opportunities because it has to be the one to switch into Stealth Rock. I mean, it does some great things, but it isn't A- good.

---

Alright, now for something kind of big: I'm proposing Blissey be dropped to C Rank. Blissey in itself is not a bad Pokemon, but it's 100% outclassed by Chansey. Halcyon. already addressed the Knock Off argument, so I won't rehash. Another advantage commonly brought up is Special Attack. However, Blissey struggles to do much actual damage with Flamethrower > Seismic Toss, which is pretty much the only special attack you would consider. Moreover, Chansey is able to function as both a better special wall than Blissey, but also a mixed wall. Due to the Eviolite, Chansey's Defense stat is actually very usable. Blissey is extraordinarily less bulky than Chansey on the physical side, it's not even funny. Random comparison calc:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 364-430 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 499-588 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

This is just one example -- you see Chansey taking 14 percentage points less (including Leftovers) from physical attacks on average. That's huge -- it becomes an opportunity cost to use Blissey, as you're losing the capability to take a whole manner of non-CB/Fighting/boosted physical attacks, and not just be murdered by the attack. It gains the approximate equivalent of neutral 100/100 Defense, which would be consider pretty bulky. As an example of special bulk:

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 175-208 (24.8 - 29.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 212-251 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Chansey takes unboosted, neutral special attacks around the same on average as Blissey. The difference becomes more apparent when you see boosted attacks:

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 376-444 (52.6 - 62.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 313-369 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

as well as super effective attacks:

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 213-252 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 40.7% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 255-302 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- 89.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So, overall, we can safely say that Chansey is a better overall special wall than Blissey. If you calculate using the minimum damages, Blissey appears bulkier, but due to the wider ranges of damage for attacks against Blissey, you can calculate that on average, Chansey always performs at least the same or better.

Based on this proof, it is obvious that Chansey is in a whole new league from Blissey when it comes to taking physical attacks, and performs at least the same or better against special threats depending on the attack. With other supposed "advantages" of Blissey refuted, it can be concluded that Chansey outclasses Blissey. Look at the definition of C Rank:

Blissey is completely eclipsed in OU by Chansey. Therefore, it fits the definition of C Rank.

Don't want to take my word for it? Well, then let's look at the SPL usage stats. Cumulatively, Chansey has 11 SPL uses, placing it at #21 (9% usage). Cumulatively, Blissey has 1 SPL use, placing it at #66 (1% usage). This is where Pokemon such as Nidoqueen, Smeargle, Shaymin, and Moltres are in usage. This clearly shows that the top players rate Chansey far above Blissey. Blissey belongs nowhere near B Rank.

Just to tack on to this argument, here's another crucial 3HKO Blissey misses out on:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 312-369 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 260-307 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Nubbins]

Mega Gardevoir for A/A- rank. Very few OU pokemon can reliably switch into hyper voice and even fewer aren't threatened by the various coverage moves it has. And while not bulky enough to switch in, it can comfortably check most non-ghost special attackers.

 

[Srn]

You can only nominate things for B or B+ now. You'll have to wait for Lilligant (and tbh I don't think it's worth C+, but we'll see).
Also, it's Quiver Dance, not quiverpowder.

When he mentioned quiverpowder, I think he was referring to the combination of quiver dance and sleep powder. (solid C material btw )

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Popping in to say that I'd like to support moving Scolipede up to B+ Rank. Speed Boost is simply an amazing ability, and Scolipede has almost everything to be able to take advantage of it. It makes for a pretty good hazard setter, providing fast Spikes for the team early in the game, and can provide momentum with a fast Baton Pass; passing the Speed Boosts to another Pokemon and maybe a Swords Dance boost too. Megahorn off of a 100 Attack also gives it a neat offensive presence, and it also has a nice physical movepool in EQ, Rock Slide, Aqua Tail, etc. so you can even try to sweep with it if you want thanks to great coverage and Speed. Scolipede can also function as a full on Baton Passer, being able to pass Speed Boosts and Iron Defense/Swords Dance as well, which make it an incredible asset when used with other full BPers such as Espeon and friends. Overall, Scolipede is a really good Pokemon right now and I definitely support it moving up.

I'd also agree with moving Sylveon up, since it's one of the better defensive Fairies out there; Fairy is a pretty great defensive typing, so Sylveon can wall some threats like Conkeldurr, Greninja, Dragons, etc. It also makes a great cleric, providing both Wish and Heal Bell support; and having a nice HP really helps. Pixilate Hyper Voice coming off of 110 Special Attack also gives it a neat offensive presence, and hitting Kyurem-B from behind its Sub is also really awesome. It can also run Calm Mind, and in general is a very good Pokemon.

I'd be okay with moving Blissey down, Jukain explained everything on that matter.