Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

[Seiterman]

While a CroCune set could work for Cresselia, it strikes me as a bit more flawed than the original. The main thing is that Steels are still everywhere and most of them take Moonblasts with ease, even boosted. Overall, Fairy has worse neutral coverage than Water, making it a tougher attacking type to use in general. Standard CB Talonflame can take a +6 Modest Moonblast. While it'll still likely lose, the point is that resists are common and Cress' SpA may be too lacking to make the set really work.

In a way that's basically saying that she is in the same boat as MegaVenu. Both shut down by wear, can stop a huge amount of threats, and is often unable to heal significantly due to sand. True, Venu can hit hard without investment (while Cress must boost) yet Cress gets Lefties (to mitigate sand/hazard damage somewhat). Correct me if im wrong, but the two are alike no?

They're definitely similar, but I'd argue that wear is a bigger problem for Cresselia despite leftovers. The big reason for this is that she lacks the healing options M-Venusaur has. Keep in mind that Moonlight only has 8 PP, making it much harder to stall out harder hits, while Synthesis has 16 also 8 don't mind me. Another thing is that M-Venu also has Giga Drain, which allows for (possibly,) good healing and damage output simultaneously. Finally, Mega Venusaur is immune to Toxic, whereas Cresselia definitely isn't (and has to be very careful about it.)

If you can only fit one into your team, I guess it's dependent on whether your Mega slot is taken and what specifically you need to wall/deal with. It has been pointed out that they're a neat pairing though.

 

[Aragorn the King]

while Synthesis has 16. Another thing is that M-Venu also has Giga Drain, which allows for (possibly,) good healing and damage output simultaneously. Finally, Mega Venusaur is immune to Toxic, whereas Cresselia definitely isn't (and has to be very careful about it.)

If you can only fit one into your team, I guess it's dependent on whether your Mega slot is taken and what specifically you need to wall/deal with. It has been pointed out that they're a neat pairing though.

Just a quick note, Synthesis also only has 8 PP.

 

[Seiterman]

Just a quick note, Synthesis also only has 8 PP.

...huh. I thought other Recover-equivalents all had 16 PP. Thanks for pointing that out!

 

[aVocado]

Psychic/Fairy Cresselia would be fucking awesome... if only it could learn Wish or Recover. But it would still be pretty fucking awesome since she has fairly solid recovery in Moonlight. It would be the ultimate Dragon counter, being immune to Earthquake (most common coverage move on all dragons) and their Dragon STAB, and it would hard-counter Garchomp.

The only drawback with Cresselia is the terrible offenses, really. If she had options like Seismic Toss or Night Shade then that could be more tolerable, but sadly she has to rely on moves like Moonblast, Ice Beam and Psychic/Psyshock.

 

[DeathCapsule]

Cress here with a Psychic/Fairy typing would be awesome, more than awesome. With access to Psycho Shift, she can at least take the common poison ailment from Poison-type attacks added. Unfortunately, her weaknesses are FAR ahead of her, as, while bulky, wouldn't do well offensively anywhere. However, with this typing, Cress could be a pretty tricky pokemon. For instance, her already great HP and pretty good typing resistance (for what would be more common against her) can help her set up Light Screens, Thunder Waves, or Moonlight. Following suit, Moonblast could be her counter (or Psyshock, Ice Beam and Charge Beam), as every pokemon at least gets hurt by it. However, a lot of pokemon can fare well against her. Starmie, Weavile, Gengar, Greninja, Shield-Aegi... I just can't see her ready with the typing to do well against the big boys.

As Arikado has pointed out earlier, Dragons couldn't FAZE Cresselia, really. The HP she packs along with her ability of Levitate make her a great foe. She'd probably fare well against the more "Earthquake-oriented" OU's like previously-mentioned Garchomp, as well as Tyranitar (not sure how well she'd fare against MegaTyranitar, but I would say she might be able to hold her ground). Cress would ALSO fare well against the ever-rising up Noivern, who's speedy and special-focused attacks are difficult to use against someone like her, really only faring well with a Shadow Ball.

In conclusion, while a Psychic/Fairy Cresselia would be a pretty good pokemon, she doesn't cover enough bases to at least reach OU's (perhaps, UU's, but that is beside the point). Her defenses are really good, as well as her resistance to Dragons, but the moveset she has is a bit lagging. In fact, it'd be very hard to even use her without most of her moveset being Status-inflicting as mentioned prior. I imagine her faring well against certain physical attackers, I guess, but the truth of the matter is, there are too many pokemon who could EASILY counter her for her to make it much higher up the tiers.

 

[Wobblebuns]

Ah, yes... Psychic/Fairy Cresselia was the coveted Goddess of Dragon-Tamers that never came to be. She arguably puts almost all of the relevant OU dragons back to their nests, unfazed by most of the barrage of attacks they have to offer. Threats like Dragonite, Garchomp, and Latios are handled with ease owing to Cressy's on-point combination of typing and ability, perfectly tailored to wall those pesky dragons. A simple moveset of Moonblast / Ice Beam / Thunder Wave / Moonlight lets her do the deed. This set is great for a bulky pivot as she can use her great defenses and immunities to come in and force switches, letting her spread paralysis more effectively. As such, she would be a great supporter for setting up opportunities for a teammate to sweep. Besides this, Toxic is another option depending on the needs of your team.

Much thanks to that needed typing, Cressy also shapes up to be a good counter to some of OU's Fighting types such as Conkeldurr and Infernape. But, I see Breloom, with all his Spore+SD shenanigans, Lucario and Toxicroak, with Cressy's new weakness to Steel and Poison respectively, are quite problematic. Looking at things, it is likely in UU where she would truly shine as a premier, if not, great Fighting counter where things like Mienshao and Heracross litter the tier. But then again, with the new aforementioned weaknesses for Cresselia, there certainly are some trade offs. One thing that I could think of on top of my head is that she loses the ability to reliably counter the Nidos. With Florges twirling around UU, Sludge Wave has become an omnipresent move in their set and that would surely hurt Cressy. Another one, though quite uncomon, is Coballion, that can Iron Head his way through her defenses.

Overall, I believe that Psychic/Fairy Cresselia has the makings to be a potential OU contender. As one had already pointed out, what mainly holds back Cressy are her terrible offenses. One could opt for a Calm Mind set, but for me, her best role is as a bulky pivot/wall.

 

[amzaneok]

Yeah that's what I was saying earlier. They both wall a significant amount of pokemon in the meta and don't require much support to do their job. Venusaur's stabs actually allow him to hit a lot of pokemon for a decent chunk of damage and can use Leech Seed and the like to annoy steels. I see a cro-cune set doing a good job in this meta like Zebstrika mentioned.
a set that would do good in the meta imo would be along the lines of this/

Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP
Bold Nature
- Moonlight/Rest
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Substitute/Sleep Talk/psychic/whatever

If status is a problem then either rest+sleep talk can be used or substitute, with substitute being the less reliable one.

Does Psycho Shift have any place on the last slot of this set, if using Moonlight over Rest? It doesn't help with Steel-types that use Toxic (Heatran, mostly), but it could help alleviate Cresselia's weakness to Toxic by restarting the counter, at the very least.

Pity this thing has a somewhat barren movepool. I'm surprised it doesn't have access to Heal Bell still...

I'd probably just run a supportive set of Moonlight / Moonblast / Thunder Wave / Lunar Dance, though.

 

[Seiterman]

Does Psycho Shift have any place on the last slot of this set, if using Moonlight over Rest? It doesn't help with Steel-types that use Toxic (Heatran, mostly), but it could help alleviate Cresselia's weakness to Toxic by restarting the counter, at the very least.

Pity this thing has a somewhat barren movepool.

I'd probably just run a supportive set of Moonlight / Moonblast / Thunder Wave / Lunar Dance, though.

I don't think Psycho Shift is worth it on Cresselia. The first thing that comes to mind is that a lot of status conditions you could reflect back don't work on common users of those status conditions. When thinking of Toxic, many Pokemon who would use it are immune to it via typing (like Heatran,) or ability (Gliscor wants to be poisoned, and the pink blobs can cure it with Natural Cure.) You could potentially reflect back paralysis or burn, but again, common users of Thunder Wave and WoW/Scald aren't overly worried about the respective status conditions. It's likely easier to just run T-Wave or Toxic if you're inclined to spread status. As for using Psycho Shift to ease Toxic troubles, it's hard to justify using a moveslot for it, I think. Cresselia basically needs Moonlight and Moonblast on all of her sets, then she needs her support options. Getting rid of a Screen, T-Wave or Lunar Dance to maybe get Psycho Shift to work is very iffy. Still, it could be a neat idea.

 

[alexwolf]

Cresselia's movepool is just big enough to allow her to perform a multitude of supporting roles effectively. Here are some possible sets:

Cresselia @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Thunder Wave / Toxic
- Moonlight
- Lunar Dance / Calm Mind

Cresselia @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Lunar Dance

Cresselia @ Flame Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Psycho Shift
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

The first set is your standard supporter, checking a ton of Pokemon, spreading status, and aiding offensive Pokemon with Lunar Dance when she has accomplished her job. Steel-types are a full stop to this set, so Heatran is a great partner. If Lunar Dance is not needed, Calm Mind is a great way to make Cresselia threatening and provide a win condition to defensive teams, as long as hard hitting Steel-types with Steel moves and Toxic users have been eliminated, such as Scizor, Excadrill, Iron Head Aegislash, Chansey, and Heatran.

The second set makes for a marvelous dual screener, as Moonblast allows her to threaten some of the most common Defog users in OU, namely Mandibuzz, Latios, Latias, and with her fantastic bulk and typing, setting and keeping up the screens is a piece of cake. Lunar Dance is a wonderful move on a dual screener, etc, etc.

Finally, Flame Orb + Psycho Shift allows Cresselia to cripple her biggest counters, Steel-types, leaving only Heatran and a few special attackers that don't mind burn and can get past Cresselia as decent answers. Also, the ability to put something to sleep with Psycho Shift while asleep is hilarious. With no Lefties, constant burn damage, and RestTalk as recovery, this variant is fairly easy to wear down though.

 

[Clair]

Indeed, but I think I myself would love a more support set. Something long the lines of Dual Screens Lunar Dance possibly (course that seems a slight bit sad, wasting her great potential).

She will easily fufill the niche of Togekiss (by this I mean being a Fairy that is immune to Outrage+Earthquake while being able to be Physically Defensive and not weak to common coverage (Stone Edge)) meaning that she could find a place on almost any team.

Togekiss has much better offensive and support options (Nasty Plot, Air Slash hax, great special attacking movepool with higher base SpAtk, Wish, Defog, and Heal Bell). In fact I'd argue that if you're trying to fill that particular niche, Togekiss would be better 9 times out of 10, the only real exception being against SE Garchomp.

Originally I felt like the CM set was a waste of her mixed walling capacity, but the majority of the time, the threats she's most efficient at walling (primarily Fighting, Ground and Dragon mons) are hit for sufficient damage by Moonblast alone. Meanwhile, Calm Mind lets you come out on top more easily against the likes of Lando-I, Thundurus, boosting Lati@s, Keldeo and so on. I'd prefer:

Cresselia @ Leftovers, Bold
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpDef
- Moonblast
- Moonlight
- Magic Coat
- Calm Mind

Magic Coat looks strange, but there aren't a lot of great options for the slot. Thunder Wave, HP Ground / Fire, screens maybe, but that's it. Magic Coat on the other hand has a lot of utility. You can lead against hazard leads and stop their setup. You prevent yourself from being set up on and then Roared out by common stall cores. You reflect status moves from the likes of Rotom-W and then switch out. Basically it removes a lot of the ineffectiveness Cressy usually experiences against anything which doesn't just try to hit straight through her.

 

[Joim]

Okay, the ladder will be up soon!

 

[alexwolf]

So, thx to Joim, the ladder is up! Go to other metagames, and you will find it as ''OU Theorymon''. Have fun guys, but remember not to post here experiences about the ladder in general, only about our current theorymon. It is possible that a thread about general talk on the ladder will be created in OM, so when it does, i will put a link to it in the OP.

 

[DeathCapsule]

Alright, first match with Cresselia ended with a loss, but her purpose served... actually pretty well. The Light Clay moveset Alex had worked VERY WELL.

 

[Salt]

How do you select the theorymon when creating a team? And how do you select their theorymon ability?

Just type it in. Even though it says illegal, it'll still let you use it. In the case of Mega Ampharos, it automatically gets Regenerator instead of Mold Breaker upon MEvolving.

 

[alexwolf]

Added some info in the OP as to how to play this ladder and how to select the new Pokemon.

 

[skies]

Mismagius is insane, I've played a few matches and I end up denting the opposition's team with it or I get wrecked myself, at +2 it can just break through things not named Blissey or Chansey with its unresisted STAB moves.

 

[Salt]

Didn't alexwolf say that we shouldn't post ladder experiences here and wait for a thread in the OM subforum?

That said, Cress has been the theorymon for a few days now. When will we start a new one? And when will the aforementioned OM thread be posted?

 

[Salemance]

Didn't alexwolf say that we shouldn't post ladder experiences here and wait for a thread in the OM subforum?

That said, Cress has been the theorymon for a few days now. When will we start a new one? And when will the aforementioned OM thread be posted?

It will be soon. I believe it will just be a bit for nominations to be decided on and what not.

 

[alexwolf]

Sorry for the delay guys, here is our next slate:

• Sticky Web Volbeat (ethan06)
• Intimidate Mega Aerodactyl (Red Cat)
• Flash Fire Gourgeist (Magma)
• Simple Slowking (Chesnaught)

You have 24 hours to vote. Only vote for one theorymon, and the theorymon with the most votes wins. Don't forget to bold your votes, otherwise they won't count. In the case of a tie, we will vote again for the two theorymon that tied, with another day time limit. Start voting!

And here is the competitive merit behind each theorymon:

Sticky Web Volbeat: Prankster Sticky Web, need i say more? Other non-attacking moves such as Thunder Wave and Encore are nice to mess with Rapid Spin and Defog users, and you can even use Tail Glow + Baton Pass if the opponent decides to bring in defensive users of Rapid Spin or Defog. Prakster Thunder Wave and Encore also help keep in check almost any sweeper, so you have that too.

Mega Aerodactyl with Intimidate:

Hi alexwolf,

I think I have a really good idea for a theorymon. It is partially a rip-off of the Intimidate Rhyperior idea, but ten times better. How about Intimidate Mega Aerodactyl? With Intimidate, Mega Aerodactyl goes from a fast sweeper to one of the best walls in OU. Here are some calcs to show you (16 speed EVs are used to outrun Mega Pinsir):

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Aerodactyl: 58-69 (15.9 - 18.9%) -- possible 6HKO

-1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Aerodactyl: 67-79 (18.4 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO

-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Aerodactyl: 102-120 (28 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl in Sun: 164-193 (45 - 53%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Aerodactyl: 176-208 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO (Aerodactyl can Roost stall)

I think the calcs are fairly self explanatory. Mega Aerodactyl can easily handle these threats with its Rock-Type STAB (usually Rock Tomb will OHKO 4X weaknesses without any offensive investment) and its good coverage options. It also has a great support movepool with SR, Defog, Taunt, and Whirlwind, in addition to reliable recovery with Roost. Mega Aerodactyl would definitely rise from its C+ ranking with Intimidate instead of Tough Claws. I hope you will put this theorymon up for the next vote.

Flash Fire Gourgeist: Can now check or counter Mega Charizard Y, Mega Charizard X, Zapdos, Heatran, Dragonite, and Mega Manectric, as well as some other minor threats, such as Entei and Rotom-H. Gourgeist also becomes a full counter to any Rotom-W set without Toxic.

Simple Slowking: Trick Room + Nasty Plot can act as both a terrifying sweeper and wallbreaker, and physically defensive with Calm Mind and Slack Off combine utility with sweeping potential.

 

[Idyll]

These new ones are probably one the coolest I seen here. For me, it's a tie between Sticky Web Volbeat and Simple Slowking. They're both excellent theorymons, one being a more annoying version of Whimscott while the other being Bibarel with actual stats.

Well, for this one my vote goes to Simple Slowking because, duh, it's Slowking.

#SimpleSlowkingtoUbers

 

[dumbguyfin]

I vote for Flash Fire Gourgeist. Flash fire would be an incredible ability for it, letting it counter/check pokes that would have 1 hit koed it otherwise.

 

[ethan06]

While it may seem a bit self-indulgent, I'm going to go with my own suggestion and vote for Sticky Web Volbeat. I wouldn't have suggested it if it wasn't a good idea, and, huh, well...

Prankster Sticky Web, need i say more?

Sorry for voting for me guys :s

 

[Kavatika]

Simple Slowking makes sense

 

[Vanadium]

Intimidate Mega Aerodactyl

 

[alexwolf]

Sticky Web Volbeat