UU does not mean the same thing as not OU viable. At the start of this gen, fucking KYUREM-BLACK was UU. Also, Knock Off>Night Slash.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Max Carvalho
Que os jogos comecem
Oh I didnt know weavile is BL sorry lol. Indeed knok off is better.
I really wanted to start the weavile discussion but forgot about it. He's super fast and strong and weavile forces a lot of switches against the omnipresent dragons and even aegislash. I used it in ou with dual screens klefki support and weavile more than proved itself. The only real support weavile needs is a way to take out fairies and possibly steels if he isn't running low kick, so fire types are good fits for him. Solid B IMO
Weavile was useful last generation when dragons weak to Ice type attacks were everywhere, but now there are Fairies to take care of them, so Weavile has lost its main niche. It also does not help that a light tap kills it in this priority heavy OU. Knock Off helps it a little, but it is walled badly by most megas. I'd say bring Weavile back up for discussion when the C's are up for discussion.
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I've been using Weavile a lot lately, and I too was waiting for the B-/C+ discussion to begin before suggesting it. The best Weavile set has been Knock Off / Ice Shard / Low Kick / Ice Punch and it's very fast and respectably powerful. Knock Off is a huge boost for it, giving it a high BP move that also makes it a pain to switch into. Ice Shard is amazing, Low Kick for Bisharp/TTar/Terrak/Heatran/etc. I've had success with both LO and a Sash lead Weavile. Unfortunately it's very frail and doesn't have too much power so Azumarill, Megasaur, Skarm, Sylveon and most other Fairies give it a lot of trouble. Probably a solid C+ in my book.
Just for clarity here I feel as though I should mention it; It doesn't matter that Weavile is BL. Any pokemon can be discussed here except for those in Ubers (Edit: And the ones that are Blacklisted in the OP). RU, NU, BL, OU, UU, etc. are all valid. As long as the pokemon is powerful and performs it's role well in this metagame, it can be mentioned and ranked. That said, generally pokemon below UU won't find their way on to this list as they don't often perform their roles well in OU and etc. But yeah, any pokemon that fits into the OU metagame can be discussed here, regardless of it's official tier.
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sadly weaviles biggest problem is I personally feel that mamoswine completely eclipses his role. Both are just as powerful but mamo has a lot more bulk and slightly better typing and SR to take advantage of while weavile has speed and knock off basically. Weavile probably shouldn't be ranked any higher than mamo I think
Max Carvalho
Que os jogos comecem
B- sounds good for weavile. Maybe B.
Weavile and Mamoswine play different roles... Weavile is a Pursuit-trapper/Late game SD sweeper while Mamoswine is a SR support pokemon.
So now we've reached the B Rank, I've been wanting to bring up a Pokemon I'm surprised has yet to be ranked: Gothitelle.
The meta has taken a substantially bulkier shift: super powerful attacks are only ocassionally flying left and right instead of all the damn time in the weather-heavy Gen 5. In an environment where the pace of battle is slower, Gothitelle truly shines. Now it can more easily pick its targets without fear of being blasted by pretty much everything in sight. Shadow Tag is still a really good ability, even in the seemingly unworthy hands of Gothitelle, but its movepool is still enough to allow it to KO what it needs. It can very easily dismantle popular defensive cores by eliminating one part of the core, or crippling both. It has (arguably) just enough coverage and has Shadow Tag + Trick, meaning it almost never fails to take out or cripple a wall, unless they are not susceptible to Gothitelle's coverage moves.
That said, Shadow Tag alone isn't quite enough to make Gothitelle spectacular. Its speed is poor and its power is average at best, so it's not trapping nearly any Pokemon without getting hit, unless they have a 4x weakness or is Psychic weak. Its lack of reliable recovery and typing (Pursuit and U-turn weak!) do not do its decent bulk justice either, so it will get worn down so easily to the point where it can hardly KO or even crippling more than one or two walls. Its coverage, while adequate, do not exactly cover each other well and lack any really powerful options, which severely limits its KOing potential.
That said, none can pick off and cripple wall(s) as easily as Gothitelle can, even if it is just one, but bulky walls are more prevelant in this meta, which allows Goth to perform decently. B Rank for Goth.
The meta has taken a substantially bulkier shift: super powerful attacks are only ocassionally flying left and right instead of all the damn time in the weather-heavy Gen 5. In an environment where the pace of battle is slower, Gothitelle truly shines. Now it can more easily pick its targets without fear of being blasted by pretty much everything in sight. Shadow Tag is still a really good ability, even in the seemingly unworthy hands of Gothitelle, but its movepool is still enough to allow it to KO what it needs. It can very easily dismantle popular defensive cores by eliminating one part of the core, or crippling both. It has (arguably) just enough coverage and has Shadow Tag + Trick, meaning it almost never fails to take out or cripple a wall, unless they are not susceptible to Gothitelle's coverage moves.
That said, Shadow Tag alone isn't quite enough to make Gothitelle spectacular. Its speed is poor and its power is average at best, so it's not trapping nearly any Pokemon without getting hit, unless they have a 4x weakness or is Psychic weak. Its lack of reliable recovery and typing (Pursuit and U-turn weak!) do not do its decent bulk justice either, so it will get worn down so easily to the point where it can hardly KO or even crippling more than one or two walls. Its coverage, while adequate, do not exactly cover each other well and lack any really powerful options, which severely limits its KOing potential.
That said, none can pick off and cripple wall(s) as easily as Gothitelle can, even if it is just one, but bulky walls are more prevelant in this meta, which allows Goth to perform decently. B Rank for Goth.
ctrl + f raikou and havent found it. i pretty much think it deserve at least b rank; av set is the best offensive pivot right now, checking a lot of top tier threats like thundurus, m-pinsir, aegi, manaphy etc. cm is still good and usable. also its usage is spiking along high-lever plays. so i think at least deserves b+ or b i dont care too much, but still better than more niche mons in b like blissey, m-blastoise or mew. also i agree with most of the change like m-heracross, slowbro, suicune, sylveon to b+. togekiss down to b. hippo for a for sure. and blissey down for c. im not quite sure about zapdos and scolipede proposal thought.
I feel like you may be right about Raikou. I was waiting for C+ or B-, but it could be B, I'm not sure. It's faster than Tornadus, has a much better movepool than Jolteon, and doesn't require a mega slot to be good, unlike Manectric. Its Calm Mind set is very good, as it hits hard, is fast, and is relatively bulky.
Weavile: Mamoswine and Weavile are not to be compared, while Mamo does learn Knock Off, it is not nearly as powerful as Weavile's, not to mention Weavile is one of the few powerful pursuit-trappers with amazing speed, powerful priority, and a good amount of Attack.
And while frail, it's SpD is decent enough to withstand average/slightly above average special move. Such as unboosted Draco meteor from Hydriegon
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 237-280 (84 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Weavile can also come in on Lati@s, Celebi, Espeon, Alakazam and other stuff to nail a KO with Pursuit.
While Icicle Crash + Knock off is impossible, and it's sad, but Ice Punch is still a good move.
Also unlike Mamo, Weavile can hit more pokemons for a lot of damage such as Rotom-W
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 134-160 (44 - 52.6%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
while Mamo can do nothing (Unless it's carrying a gimmicky freeze-dry)
It's very frail and SR weak, has a lot of problems such as priority, but I definitely think it's not C, I'd argue B- or even B
And while frail, it's SpD is decent enough to withstand average/slightly above average special move. Such as unboosted Draco meteor from Hydriegon
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 237-280 (84 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Weavile can also come in on Lati@s, Celebi, Espeon, Alakazam and other stuff to nail a KO with Pursuit.
While Icicle Crash + Knock off is impossible, and it's sad, but Ice Punch is still a good move.
Also unlike Mamo, Weavile can hit more pokemons for a lot of damage such as Rotom-W
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 134-160 (44 - 52.6%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
while Mamo can do nothing (Unless it's carrying a gimmicky freeze-dry)
It's very frail and SR weak, has a lot of problems such as priority, but I definitely think it's not C, I'd argue B- or even B
Always been a fan of the lightning sabertooth tiger. Is the AV set pretty good then? I had heard bad things, especially on the analysis page. Can one of you give some more information/details about what he does and etc so that I can cast a more informed vote on this?
I agree with Gothitelle for B rank. It is easily the best trapper in OU which is enough to make it a decent option in OU. I think Raikou should be lower than B rank. It is mostly outclassed by Thundurus. The difference between 111 and 115 base speed is minor as there are no significant threats which are between those speed tiers.
i agree with Gothitelle for B or B- rank, Raikou still a solid enough option, but has no real niche where it's not outclassed so C+ rank from me.
Also, I nominate Reuniclus for B rank. Still a deadly sweeper/team crippler if it gets up a trick room.
Also, I nominate Reuniclus for B rank. Still a deadly sweeper/team crippler if it gets up a trick room.
Except for, you know, Thundurus.
Ok, I'd like to make two nominations. The first is for Hippowdon for A+ rank.
Hippowdown is one of the best Pokemon in the tier ATM. It's an amazing bulky ground type that walls a TON of the metagame. Aegislash, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Thundurus, Charizard Y (Due to Sand Stream), and SO many more. Combine this with Whirlwind to remove set-up sweepers and Slack Off for reliable recovery, and you have a great Pokemon on your hands. The fact that's it's slapped onto defensive and offensive teams alike for a way to deal with so many common threats makes this Pokemon a great candidate for A+ rank.
Next, this may be an odd one, but... I want to nominate Chansey for S/A+ rank.
Chansey is one of, if not the greatest walls in the tier. It's amazing mixed bulk thanks to Eviolite means that it can switch in on a whole slew of different attackers. It walls most variants of,Thundurus, Charizard Y, Deoxys-Speed, Heatran, Landorus, Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Talonflame (Chansey can Roost stall Banded variants until they kill themselves w/ Recoil), Greninja, Latios, Latias, Clefable, Mega Gardevoir, Zapdos, Politoad, and many, many more. Not only that, but Chansey has access to Wish, making her by far the best Wish passer in the tier. Combine this with a reliable damage-dealing move in Seismic Toss, and you have an amazing wall on your hands. Any and basically all of Chansey's negatives are handled by team support as well. Chansey is a necessity on almost all successful stall teams due to her many positive traits, making her EASILY A+ rank, if not S rank.
EDIT: Totally forgot to address this, but please don't use "Knock Off's commonality makes Chansey a lot less viable!" This is just plain not true. Let me ask you this: WHAT stall team is keeping Chansey in on Knock Off? None are, plain and simple. Chansey doesn't want to stay out on any Knock Off user, so Chansey is almost always keeping her Eviolite the entire match. Even if Chansey does, somehow, lose her Eviolite, she isn't completely useless; 250 HP and 105 SpDef still make Chansey somewhat useful.
Hippowdown is one of the best Pokemon in the tier ATM. It's an amazing bulky ground type that walls a TON of the metagame. Aegislash, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Thundurus, Charizard Y (Due to Sand Stream), and SO many more. Combine this with Whirlwind to remove set-up sweepers and Slack Off for reliable recovery, and you have a great Pokemon on your hands. The fact that's it's slapped onto defensive and offensive teams alike for a way to deal with so many common threats makes this Pokemon a great candidate for A+ rank.
Next, this may be an odd one, but... I want to nominate Chansey for S/A+ rank.
Chansey is one of, if not the greatest walls in the tier. It's amazing mixed bulk thanks to Eviolite means that it can switch in on a whole slew of different attackers. It walls most variants of,Thundurus, Charizard Y, Deoxys-Speed, Heatran, Landorus, Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Talonflame (Chansey can Roost stall Banded variants until they kill themselves w/ Recoil), Greninja, Latios, Latias, Clefable, Mega Gardevoir, Zapdos, Politoad, and many, many more. Not only that, but Chansey has access to Wish, making her by far the best Wish passer in the tier. Combine this with a reliable damage-dealing move in Seismic Toss, and you have an amazing wall on your hands. Any and basically all of Chansey's negatives are handled by team support as well. Chansey is a necessity on almost all successful stall teams due to her many positive traits, making her EASILY A+ rank, if not S rank.
EDIT: Totally forgot to address this, but please don't use "Knock Off's commonality makes Chansey a lot less viable!" This is just plain not true. Let me ask you this: WHAT stall team is keeping Chansey in on Knock Off? None are, plain and simple. Chansey doesn't want to stay out on any Knock Off user, so Chansey is almost always keeping her Eviolite the entire match. Even if Chansey does, somehow, lose her Eviolite, she isn't completely useless; 250 HP and 105 SpDef still make Chansey somewhat useful.
I've already talked about why Knock Off isn't a viable arguement. Trick and Taunt cripple it, yes, but what are the common users of Trick anymore? Rotom-W, Chandelure, and...? Taunt isn't a very big deal for it, either, as it isn't common enough to keep it out of A+. (Gliscor and Mandibuzz, the main users, have 4MMS and are running move other than Taunt a lot of the time.) Also, it isn't scared out by a lot of physical attackers. The only physical attackers that scare it out are set-up sweepers, and they are almost always handled by an Unaware user, anyways. Here's a calc to prove that physical attackers aren't scaring Chansey out.
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 211-250 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 28.6% chance to 3HKO
Kyurem-Black, a Pokemon with one of the highest attack stats, doesn't even guarantee a 3HKO with it's main STAB. If that's not enough bulk for A+, then I don't know what is.
"main STAB"
No. Use a realistic calc like Banded Outrage.
Also, there is no way Chansey is going A+, ever, that thing is so easy to set up on.
A lot of physical attackers can overwhelm the two only viable unaware users. Bisharp handles Clefable and Quagsire does not appreciate switching in on knock off.
Choice Band Kyureum-Black isn't very common any more. In fact, most Kyureum go for a set of Fusion Bolt/Ice Beam/Earth Power/Substitute. It's the first set on the analysis. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/kyurem-b-qc-2-3.3496420/
I feel like if you were to actually play on the higher end of the ladder, you'd actually know this. :P
EDIT: Just wanted to address your point on Chansey being easily set up on. While this is definitely true, a simple added team member in Unaware Quagsire makes most set-up sweepers pretty easy to deal with. Since both are staples on stall, I don't really feel like this enough of an argument to keep Chansey out of A+.
You're right that Clefable doesn't beat Bisharp. However, Quagsire doesn't mind Knock Off all that much, due to it's access to Recover, and the fact that it's immune to Sandstorm.
Also, while some physical attackers do overwhelm the Unaware users, most of the ones that do aren't set-up sweepers, meaning they can be handled by Chansey/a physical wall such as Skarmory. If they are set-up sweepers, they can almost always be handled by another Roar/Whirlwind user on the team.
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So you attack chansey for not taking super effective physical hits well, then promote skarm who can't take super effect special hits? I agree chansey falls short of a+, but fire blast and thunderbolt are both way more realistic occurances than terrakion right now
Hippo for A- Rank.....AGAIN
Well I guess I might as well do my mandatory Hippowdon rant. Anyways, Hippowdon for at the VERY fucking least, A- Rank. What can I say. Pretty much everything has been said already about Hippo, and I almost feel like I'm beating a dead horse by repeating over and over again why Hippo deserves to be a higher rank, only to get shot down every time. I might as well just start comparing Hippowdon's traits with other top tier defensive Pokemon, just to prove to you how amazing Hippo is in the current metagame.
1. Does it check many top tier threats in the metagame: Yes it does. Its sole Ground-typing gives it useful resistances, an incredible Electric-type immunity, and a ton of neutralities, which is easily compensated for with its massive bulk. With proper investment, it checks Landorus-T, Thundurus, Talonflame, Aegislash, Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, Garchomp, Scizor, Conkeldurr, Dragonite, Excadrill, Heatran, Tyranitar, Bisharp, and Terrakion. So in total, in checks a whopping 16 OU Pokemon, and all of them are considered top tier threats. Even Mega Venusaur struggles to get past several of these Pokemon, but not Hippowdon.
2. Does it have reliable recovery: Yes it has access to Slack Off, which makes it incredibly difficult to wear down without powerful super effective attacks or Toxic.
3. Is it often set up fodder for many sweepers: Absolutely not. Hippowdon learns Whirlwind, which keeps physical attackers from setting up on it. It also learns Rock Slide, which can be useful for just swiftly taking out the likes of Talonflame and Mega Pinsir without having to always resort to phazing. Pretty much every physical attacker listed above, cannot ever set up on Hippo as long as it has Whirlwind.
4. Does it provide good team utility: Besides the fact that it walls a huge portion of the metagame, it can also provide teams with a reliable user of Stealth Rock, as well as a phazer to keep dangerous physical sweepers from destroying your team. On top of that, Hippowdon has the coveted Sand Stream ability, which allows it to aid Sand Rush Excadrill or Sand Force Mega Garchomp in sweeping or breaking through opposing walls. Even Sand Force Hippowdon is a great boon to stall teams, because it allows you to use healing moves such as Moonlight or Synthesis on your team alongside Hippowdon without having to worry about the loss in recovery due to Sand. It just provides so much defensive momentum for teams, as well as providing a team with other forms of utility instead of just sitting there and walling.
5. Is it easy to fit onto teams: For the most part, Hippowdon can fit pretty well on a lot of teams. While it doesn't do a whole bunch for Hyper offensive teams, balanced, bulky offense, and stall really love Hippowdon because of its ability to check so many threats. Although it doesn't have the greatest offensive presence, it can still fit well on some offensive teams, because it just keeps so many sweepers from ripping apart frail offensive teams.
There's more points I could bring up, but that pretty much covered it all. I guess I could mention that Hippowdon separates itself from other walls in OU by being bulky on both sides of the spectrum (which is one of the reasons Mega Venusaur is so good). I just don't think there's any denying at this point that Hippowdon deserves to be ranked among some of the better OU walls. For fucks sake, Skarmory is A- rank, and while it does provide some great utility, Hippowdon checks a LOT more common Pokemon, and it isn't completely slaughtered by special attackers either.
I don't mean to be rude, but anyone who thinks that Hippo doesn't deserve to be considered a top OU defensive Pokemon, then they need to learn more about the meta. It's ridiculosly good, and has all the good traits of a fantastic defensive wall. Sure it has it fair share of faults, such as being completely shutdown by Taunt and heavily crippled by Toxic (although there are some really good clerics that pair very well with Hippo), positives GREATLY outweigh the negatives, which is why Hippowdon should be moved to A- rank at the very least. Of course, A rank would be better IMO, but don't wanna shoot too high at the moment.
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Firstly, Banded Terrakion is near non-existent in this meta, so it's not really relevant enough of a threat to harm the viability of Chansey.
Second, Skarmory is currently A- because a lot of physical attackers can get around it, such as physically-offensive Fire-types, such as Charizard X and Talonflame, physical Pokemon who run coverage for Skarmory, such Fire Blast Garchomp and Fire Blast Tyranitar, mixed attackers, such as Aegislash, and powerful physical attackers, such as Kyureum-Black with Fusion Bolt. Chansey, however, wall both physical AND special attackers, making it extremely useful for stall teams. Combine this with it's Wish-passing abilities for Pokemon such as Heatran, and you have an easy A+ Pokemon IMO.
I'd like some calcs of relevant physically-offensive Pokemon who can 2HKO Chansey without set-up. :)
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