Other Current Metagame trends

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alexwolf

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The definition of check and counter is static, it doesn't change whether or not there is a power creep that makes the large majority of pokemon harder to handle. Hint: that isn't even the case for this gen. The combination of the weather nerf, Defog buff (stopping hazards HO / new counterplay to hazards), and even the special move nerf all make the power in this gen much more tame than last gen. Mega-Evolutions is just one optimized threat per team, Drizzle / Drought made entire teams optimized (saur: a sweeper with 1 counter + victini: 270 base power attacks is lolworthy).

You either stop an entire pokemon's moveset or you don't. That definition doesn't change between gens.

And btw Mega-Scizor does not counter Azumarill. CB Waterfall does 43% minimum to max hp / max defense with a positive nature Scizor. CB Azumarill can 2HK0 97% of the time after SR...

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Mega Scizor: 148-175 (43.1 - 51%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Scizor: 135-160 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Also, Mega Scizor is faster, which means that it can Roost first and always avoid the 2HKO even with SR up. Admittedly, it can do little back, and Roosting back to full life takes a long time and you might get critted, but Mega Scizor counters CB Azumarill in the technical sense, and sometimes in the practical too.
 
Well...to an extent. It's one thing to say a threat is predictable, but if you're forced to stop it or else you'll lose, you also become very predictable in response. But at the same time, beating a DeoSharp setup is ridiculously easy in the teambuilding stage. For instance, I made it to the top 20 on PO using Magic Coat Tentacruel to guarantee myself an early advantage against Deoxys teams. I feel like because it's perfectly easy to overprepare for DeoSharp, and because it's so popular and so many strong players use specific anti-Deo strategies, in an important setting like a tournament most people would rather not take the risk of having their DeoSharp core being practically worthless.
I just use a fast taunt. Works fine. :/

The definition of check and counter is static, it doesn't change whether or not there is a power creep that makes the large majority of pokemon harder to handle. Hint: that isn't even the case for this gen. The combination of the weather nerf, Defog buff (stopping hazards HO / new counterplay to hazards), and even the special move nerf all make the power in this gen much more tame than last gen. Mega-Evolutions is just one optimized threat per team, Drizzle / Drought made entire teams optimized (saur: a sweeper with 1 counter + victini: 270 base power attacks is lolworthy).

You either stop an entire pokemon's moveset or you don't. That definition doesn't change between gens.

And btw Mega-Scizor does not counter Azumarill. CB Waterfall does 43% minimum to max hp / max defense with a positive nature Scizor. CB Azumarill can 2HK0 97% of the time after SR...

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Mega Scizor: 148-175 (43.1 - 51%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Well, to be fair, that actually just proves M-Scizor can switch in; M-Scizor can outspeed and hit Azu with Knock off, and then easily roost off the damage, now doing a max of 35% without the choice band. Then, if Azu stays in, Scizor can beat Azu down with Knock Off until it dies. Just thought I'd chime in with a quick fact check ;)

However, it should be noted that Scizor can't OHKO Azu, so it loses to belly drum variants who can drum and then easily take a hit and waterfall back.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Scizor: 135-160 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Also, Mega Scizor is faster, which means that it can Roost first and always avoid the 2HKO even with SR up. Admittedly, it can do little back, and Roosting back to full life takes a long time and you might get critted, but Mega Scizor counters CB Azumarill in the technical sense, and sometimes in the practical too.
Except, rather than roosting, it can Knock Off first, which makes it thus much easier to switch into in the future and allows it to avoid the 3HKO.
 

alexwolf

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I just use a fast taunt. Works fine. :/



Well, to be fair, that actually just proves M-Scizor can switch in; M-Scizor can outspeed and hit Azu with Knock off, and then easily roost off the damage, now doing a max of 35% without the choice band. Then, if Azu stays in, Scizor can beat Azu down with Knock Off until it dies. Just thought I'd chime in with a quick fact check ;)

However, it should be noted that Scizor can't OHKO Azu, so it loses to belly drum variants who can drum and then easily take a hit and waterfall back.



Except, rather than roosting, it can Knock Off first, which makes it thus much easier to switch into in the future and allows it to avoid the 3HKO.
True, totally forgot about Knock Off.
 

DeoSharp is one of the best HO cores in the metagame because of the offensive pressure it builds against the opposition.. Deoxys-D sets up hazards until it dies where the opponent will be under lots of pressure as switching is very common but now with SR + Spikes, your opponent will be taking lots of damage, especially if you consider Volt Switch and U-turn. Your opponent will either A: Rapid Spin with Excadrill (Gengar or Aegislash is commonly carried in this scenario) or B: Defog. If the opponent choose B, you can switch in on it and gain an instant +2 and possibly sweep your opponents team with ease. If you are ina favorable match-up, you can even get to +4! Thanks to the stacked boosts of and Adamant Nature, Life Orb / Dread Plate, Swords Dance, and STAB, Knock Off and Iron Head pretty much OHKO everything together. The steel-type nerf was a huge blessing; it now can destroy things like Scizor and Skarmory, things which ruined its viability. Sucker Punch makes it it impossible to revenge bar the rare Keldeo who takes massive damage from +2 LO Sucker Punch (+4 sometimes). In fact, Bisharp can set-up its own SD to sweep which makes Deoxys-D's hazards more efficient. Aegislash leading against Deoxys-D? Switch to Bisharp and decimate it with Knock Off (be careful of King's Shield though). This core is really good this generation and is standard and found commonly in upper level of play like SPL and OSL.


Yes, you can use Pursuit Aegislash and Bisharp. And yes, it's just as effective. The reason Tyranitar is often used with Mega Charizard Y is that it Pursuit trap everything that threatens Mega Charizard Y or can tank it like Latias, Talonflame, Raikou, Mega Charizard X, & Thundurus-I (assuming no Focus Blast / Superpower). Keldeo also forms a core with this too as Hydro Pump won't be hindered as sand is up v. sun. Sand and sun seem like a strange mix, but rememeber that Mega Charizard Y will get a full 5 new turns of sun when it comes back in which is nice. This core has been used a lot and for a good reason, it is the most powerful wall-breaking core along with Dual Birds. Another PKMN that fits good with this core is Lati@s as they provide necessary Defog support for Mega Charizard Y. Try it out yourself. It's called a "current metagame trend" for a reason.


There's a reason why Thundurus-I is almost always found with THE CRUMBLER. Thundurus-I is immune to Ground-type attacks and can threaten Mega Charizard Y which usually comes in on Aegislash, but the main reason is its ability, Prankster. Thunder Wave now has priority meaning that Aegislash will be able to nuke everything with Shadow Ball without having to take a hit. In addition to that, Aegislash's Pursuit traps Latias which is a hard stop to NP Thundurus. The two form a powerful S-Rank core able to destroy almost everything in sight. Thundurus-I also benefits with Aegislash's ability to beat Chansey which is often problematic. The core isn't something to built around alone as it's more of a supporting core for another core like KeldTar or ChompTar, so it's recommended to focus on its advantages in teambuilding instead of its offensive presence. It's still worth the hassle however and there's a reason it's found commonly: it is one of the best things to pair with Mega Charizard Y and Mega Tyranitar.


I wasn't a huge fan of Kyurem-B at any point of time because of its SR weakness and having to face its below-average speed. However, the resurgence of Zapdos and Defog has made it much more viable and with Zapdos no longer having to take boosted Hydro Pumps and Fire Blast in Gen V, it has become much more worthwhile. Toxic helps it where down lots of things for Kyurem-B to sweep from behind the Substitute. It can even tank Pixalate Hyper Voice from Sylveon and its longetivity is really good in the long run. It isn't as common as the aforementioned past 3 cores, but it has its merits.

Deoxys-S has managed to barely survive the suspect test meaning that OU can now use it again. With Deoxys-S finally staying, OU has discovered that the old Focus Sash lead isn't as effective compared to Deoxys-D leading us to a conclusion. Is Deoxys-S worth it? There are two sets, but please, Dual Screens isn't as good with Defog all over a place. Say hello to one of the best anti-metagame sets.

Deoxys-S | Life Orb | Pressure
Naive | 20 Atk / 236 SpA / 252 Spe
Psycho Boost | Ice Beam | Superpower | Stealth Rock


People often ignore how Deoxys-S has nice SpA. It's signature move Psycho Boost along with Ice Beam make it the best revenge-killer in the tier along with the ability to set up much needed Stealth Rock. Superpower is great as it lures in Tyranitar and OHKOes it. It even has usage against Heatran, Excadrill, and Greninja making it very valuable. The ability to revenge-kill, set up rocks, be a nice late-game cleaner, decent wall-breaker, and lure all in one set make it one of the best PKMN to use in OU.

These are common metagame trends that have been kick-started in usage after SPL. These cores are great and are used for a good reason. Other cores I did not mention were Landorus-I + Keldeo, Mega Tyranitar + Scizor, and Clefable + Suicune. Stall teams also have been great to use now with the metagame being much slower and a little kinder with Gen 6 being much bulkier. Zapdos + Kyurem-B isn't seen much, but I have seen it a couple times on the higher end of the ladder to a point where I am now introducing this to the public. Deoxys-S is really good. You should all give it a shot!
 
Deoxys-S | Life Orb | Pressure
Naive | 20 Atk / 236 SpA / 252 Spe
Psycho Boost | Ice Beam | Superpower | Stealth Rock
Why would you run max speed? With 252+ speed you outspeed nothing notable. A much better spread is 20 Atk / 252 SpA / 236 Spe with a Naive nature.
 

reyscarface

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Why would you run max speed? With 252+ speed you outspeed nothing notable. A much better spread is 20 Atk / 252 SpA / 236 Spe with a Naive nature.
Dont underestimate how important it is to at least speed tie with other Deoxys-S. The extra power EVs give you almost nothing, the speed EVs could win you a match.
 
Dont underestimate how important it is to at least speed tie with other Deoxys-S. The extra power EVs give you almost nothing, the speed EVs could win you a match.
The 20 EV's give you the guareenteed KO on 252 HP Tyranitar, which I guess is just as situational as a mirror Deo-S matchup. However, I agree with you rey. Gaining a 50% chance to win in a mirror match with Deo-S vs 6.2% chance to lose against 252 HP TTar is a much better trade off. You can KO 252 HP Tyranitar with less Atk EV's Taehl, you only need 12. If you really wanted both you could just take 8 EV's out of SpA. But you should always run 252 Spe, since out of all the rare situations you can conjure up with by not running a small amount of EV's in Atk, SpA, or Spe; the one that is going to give you the greatest chance to lose is the Deo-S mirror match: a loss 100% of the time.

Calcs I am referencing:
4 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 400-473 (99 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
12 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 406-478 (100.4 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


edit: Vertex no one said anything about using a modest nature
 
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Dont underestimate how important it is to at least speed tie with other Deoxys-S. The extra power EVs give you almost nothing, the speed EVs could win you a match.
The extra EVs let you outpace things like Choices scarf Garchomp and Landorus-I which a Modest Nature fails to do iirc. Naive is important. The speed tie on Deo-S is great too since you can rocks before your opponent taunts or just kill a weakened deoxys-s with ice beam before it gets more spikes

edit: Doughboy i read wrong sry
 
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So looking at the deo-s set that's above, how is this deo-s going to beat any other deo-s? Psycho boost and super power are both resisted, and neutral unstabed ice beam is almost just as bad. Unless you define "winning" as getting SR up before you get taunted, I'm simply not seeing it. So why worry about speed tieing with something you can't really beat anyway?

*edit*

slightly ninja'd by vertex. I didn't know about the scarfers, that can be significant. Especially scarfchomp.
 

reyscarface

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So looking at the deo-s set that's above, how is this deo-s going to beat any other deo-s? Psycho boost and super power are both resisted, and neutral unstabed ice beam is almost just as bad. Unless you define "winning" as getting SR up before you get taunted, I'm simply not seeing it. So why worry about speed tieing with something you can't really beat anyway?

*edit*

slightly ninja'd by vertex. I didn't know about the scarfers, that can be significant. Especially scarfchomp.
Life Orb Ice Beam followed by Psycho Boost KOs 0/0 Deoxys. This isnt even taking into account any layers.
 
Max Speed Deoxys-S guarantees that you outspeed Scarf Garchomp, which is important because then you can just pop them with that Ice Beam. Also, if you don't run max+ speed then Garchomp does a good amount of damage to you with Earthquake.

I've been using a lot of Deosharp, with Deoxys-D over speed. It really makes for some fast paced battles tbh. I also use Bellyjet Azumarill now, and it's extremely powerful. Currently I'm seeing a whole lot more Clefables than I've ever seen in a while, probably because it's so good at what it does. I'm surprised that I'm not seeing Mega-Gyarados at all though, that thing is a monster lol. Also seeing a lot more Greninjas and a bunch of other stuff tbh.
 

Punchshroom

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Max Speed Deoxys-S guarantees that you outspeed Scarf Garchomp, which is important because then you can just pop them with that Ice Beam. Also, if you don't run max+ speed then Garchomp does a good amount of damage to you with Earthquake.
Actually, the 236 Speed EVs @ positive nature is specifically for Scarf Garchomp. Anything with a higher base Speed that holds Scarf is out of Deoxys-S's league anyway, which is why people suggested non-max Speed. Speedtying opposing Deoxys-S could matter though.
 
Oh lol... If you ran the max speed EVs to speed tie with Deoxys-Speed though wouldn't you want something like Knock Off so you can actually KO it?

Another thing I forgot to mention is that I barely see Mega-Venusaur anymore for whatever reason. I mean I get that Mega-Venusaur is a really stall heavy mon and some people don't wanna use it, but it's still a great Conkeldurr counter and just overall defensive wall, although I hate using that thing too because it's so stally lol. My rank is decent (1486 in OU), but other people that I'm facing are trying to just slap on five mons and a Conkeldurr to their teams it seems. I've also seen random stuff like Ice Punch Mega-DDtar, and I really don't know why people are using SD Aegislash. Seriously what does SD Aegislash have over Crumbler? You aren't sweeping anything with a 40 BP move, especially if the opponent has a Bisharp since it resists. I've seen people even set up when I clearly have a Bisharp on my team. -__________-
 
Oh lol... If you ran the max speed EVs to speed tie with Deoxys-Speed though wouldn't you want something like Knock Off so you can actually KO it?

Another thing I forgot to mention is that I barely see Mega-Venusaur anymore for whatever reason. I mean I get that Mega-Venusaur is a really stall heavy mon and some people don't wanna use it, but it's still a great Conkeldurr counter and just overall defensive wall, although I hate using that thing too because it's so stally lol. My rank is decent (1486 in OU), but other people that I'm facing are trying to just slap on five mons and a Conkeldurr to their teams it seems. I've also seen random stuff like Ice Punch Mega-DDtar, and I really don't know why people are using SD Aegislash. Seriously what does SD Aegislash have over Crumbler? You aren't sweeping anything with a 40 BP move, especially if the opponent has a Bisharp since it resists. I've seen people even set up when I clearly have a Bisharp on my team. -__________-
So a few comments...

1. under what definition of stall does conkeldurr fall under? The vast majority of durrs I see are 4 attacks + AV. I have yet to see a full stallmon run 4 attacks. It is true that durr can take a hit, but being able to take a hit != stall. That would be like saying TTar is a stallmon because it can take a special attack (lets ignore that defensive ttar sets do exist for a moment, I'm aware of that). Conkeldurr is a fantastic glue pokemon, so I can see why you are seeing folks sticking this guy on a team at psuedo random. He is one of the best gutsmons in the game, making him a premier status absorber, meaning he's good on almost any team that hates status.

2. While SD aeigis is bad, no SD aeigis should be running shadow sneak. As you have stated, 40 BP for a STAB is pitiful. Instead run shadow claw if you must run SD aegis. This makes you more predictable for the benefit of making you considerably more resilient to counter attacks AND hit much, MUCH harder.
 
2. While SD aeigis is bad, no SD aeigis should be running shadow sneak. As you have stated, 40 BP for a STAB is pitiful. Instead run shadow claw if you must run SD aegis. This makes you more predictable for the benefit of making you considerably more resilient to counter attacks AND hit much, MUCH harder.
While, like you said, SD Aegislash is terrible, if you do want to use SD Aegislash it must have Shadow sneak. Aegislash is way to slow to work as a SD sweeper without priority. Even though Shadow Sneak is a weak move, it can hit pretty hard because it's coming of a base 150 attack with usually 1 or 2 SD boosts. Shadow Sneak was the main reason SD Aegislash was even viable at the beginning of XY.
 
So a few comments...

1. under what definition of stall does conkeldurr fall under? The vast majority of durrs I see are 4 attacks + AV. I have yet to see a full stallmon run 4 attacks. It is true that durr can take a hit, but being able to take a hit != stall. That would be like saying TTar is a stallmon because it can take a special attack (lets ignore that defensive ttar sets do exist for a moment, I'm aware of that). Conkeldurr is a fantastic glue pokemon, so I can see why you are seeing folks sticking this guy on a team at psuedo random. He is one of the best gutsmons in the game, making him a premier status absorber, meaning he's good on almost any team that hates status.

2. While SD aeigis is bad, no SD aeigis should be running shadow sneak. As you have stated, 40 BP for a STAB is pitiful. Instead run shadow claw if you must run SD aegis. This makes you more predictable for the benefit of making you considerably more resilient to counter attacks AND hit much, MUCH harder.


I never said that Conkeldurr is stall LOL.....You should actually read my post next time..

EDIT: I suppose you thought I said that Conkeldurr is "so stally", just to clarify I was talking about Mega Venusaur...
 

Punchshroom

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While SD aeigis is bad, no SD aeigis should be running shadow sneak. As you have stated, 40 BP for a STAB is pitiful. Instead run shadow claw if you must run SD aegis. This makes you more predictable for the benefit of making you considerably more resilient to counter attacks AND hit much, MUCH harder.
SD Aegislash is not bad, SD + King's Shield is bad. This is mainly because not only King's Shield does not really save SD Aegislash against its responses, but also limits Aegislash to 2 move coverage, one of which has to be Shadow Sneak so Aegislash can respond to faster opponents like Thundurus or whatever. Instead, SD + 3 attacks (with speed investment) is the SD Aegi variant to look out for now since it is harder to prepare for: Iron Head is Aegislash's most consistent attack as it is much stronger than Sacred Sword and wrecks most slower Pokemon (Fairies, Conkeldurr, Mega Venusaur), while Head Smash lets Aegislash break bulky Flying-types / Steel-resists such as Zapdos, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, and Volcarona (occasionally Charizard if you're feeling ballsy). Don't worry about not being able to King's Shield, since physical Aegislash tends to get forced out a bit often anyway, meaning it is better to just throw out a strong attack + Shadow Sneak if need be, then waiting for the right time to SD to sweep the opponent clean, not needing King's Shield at that point.

In short, King's Shield is a waste on SD Aegislash. Go 3 attacks or just go mixed.
 
iliekmudkipz123456789 Yeah, misread ur post, sorry about that. Thought you were saying that you hated conkeldurr because he was stally. Megasaur is definitely a stallmon, but he can also be used as a special or mixed tank. Watch out for those ambiguous pronouns bro, they cause confusion almost as reliably as Klefki.

Taehl Yeah no, aeigis-shield can actually take a hit, so it can afford to not outspeed things. If you are using SD aeigis to try and kill everything with no chance of retaliation, you're simply using the wrong pokemon, try virtually every other mon with SD. The point of SD aeigis is to take a hit and OHKO back, I wouldn't quite call it a "sweeper". Aeigis-shield has enough bulk to even take some SE hits and still hit back, and at +2, "hitting back" usually means an OHKO. If you think they're going to setup on you, hit them, otherwise kings shield and enjoy your force out.

BTW, SD megachomp operates on a similar principle, and that works just fine.

*edit*

or just listen to punchshroom, friggen ninja boxer thing
 
Taehl Yeah no, aeigis-shield can actually take a hit, so it can afford to not outspeed things. If you are using SD aeigis to try and kill everything with no chance of retaliation, you're simply using the wrong pokemon, try virtually every other mon with SD. The point of SD aeigis is to take a hit and OHKO back, I wouldn't quite call it a "sweeper". Aeigis-shield has enough bulk to even take some SE hits and still hit back, and at +2, "hitting back" usually means an OHKO. If you think they're going to setup on you, hit them, otherwise kings shield and enjoy your force out.
SD Aegislash is not meant for taking a hit and hit back. If that's how you play Aegislash you should use the mixed KS set.
 
I don't play on the simulator much (or on cartridge much, for that matter) but I do enjoy watching high level matches. I was curious about how the metagame has changed since the bans of Lucarionite and Genesect a month or so ago so I got the data from the SPL statistics thread and compared the before and after. Unfortunately SPL statistics are a very small sample size but I do feel that tournament data provides a better representation of the metagame than ladder matches and this is the only source available.
For those of you who are interested, the interesting things I noticed were:
  • Highest increase over that time: Landorus. Earth Power + Psychic + Sludge Wave are very common. Stealth Rock is also used, as well as Focus Blast and Calm Mind. Don't see Rock Polish or U-turn too much, interesting considering those were the two sets that contributed to it being banned last generation.
  • Second highest: Keldeo. Specs hits hard, dealing ~40% to common resists like Latias. Commonly paired with Landorus + Pursuit user.
  • Third: Azumarill.
  • Fourth: Thundurus. The most common Pokémon overall, sporting 44% usage over the past four weeks. Great utility, incredibly versatile and great speed tier. Like Tesung said in the Victory Road forum, "no reason not to use it".
  • Fifth: Tyranitar. Like said above, Pursuit users are becoming more popular and Tyranitar is a prime candidate. Can be a very bulky support mon or revenge kill/trap stuff with Scarf. Mega Tyranitar as a Dragon Dance user is also common; its bulk is ridiculous and great power as well.
  • Sixth: Gyarados. Dragon Dance Mega Gyarados is very hard to stop, it has two great abilities in Intimidate > Mold Breaker, good coverage and a typing change that can make it difficult to deal with. Enough bulk to handle priority as well.
  • Seventh: Mawile. Well, I guess all these Mega Pokémon were going to increase with Lucarionite gone. Knock Off becoming increasingly popular on Mawile has made it even harder to deal with. Intimidate + acceptable bulk + great typing + ludicrous Attack + priority makes it a handful for any team.
  • Eighth: Bisharp.
  • Ninth: Terrakion.
  • Tenth: Greninja.
Biggest drops were in order: Lucario (not surprisingly), Rotom-Wash, Heatran, Conkeldurr, Manaphy, Mandibuzz, Garchomp, Zapdos, Quagsire, Venusaur, Pinsir. Make of that what you will.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
How does one counter Bisharp, exactly?

Of all of the potent out threats, it seems as if, personally, Bisharp is among the most lethal. Sucker Punch keeps offensive checks at bay, and they certainly aren't switching in. Knock off can 1hko max/max skarm of all things at +2 after a bit of hazards damage. Pokemon like lando-t that would otherwise be great end upboosting it even further with intimidate. What have you guys found to be the best ways to take on the power ranger on both offensive and defensive teams?
 
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