Knock Off

[Kingpoleon]

Approved by kokoloko
Knock Off is a common move in the UU metagame now. You may ask why it wasn't in BW/2; this generation, it got a power buff to 65 base power and if the target is holding an item, it becomes a 97 BP move, along with Knocking Off their item. Many common Pokémon rely on this move to defeat their former counters. Some Pokémon have few/no counters because of this move.
This has caused many to call Knock Off broken, so I created a poll.(PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS THREAD INTO A KNOCK OFF BROKEN THREAD!!!!!! Thank you :)
Some common Pokémon that use this move include:
Escavalier, Machamp, Krookodile, Mienshao, Scrafty, Shuckle, Empoleon, and the like.
Please feel free to discuss potential move sets that are unexplored with this move and suggest other common users, along with ways of dealing with Knock Off.

 

[Petrico94]

It's really good but just short of being banable. One of the commandments of competitive pokemon is everyone must hold an item, even if it's just leftovers. Knock off will always get an attack bonus and break the enemies leg on the first attack. It's a little like scald, 30% chance to burn, water type isn't bad and decent damage, just spam it on anything that isn't resistant. However even if you resist Knock Off (btw, steel got nerfed) you're going to lose your item anyways so you're screwed. Weavile used to be UU but could use choice band and get a 339 x 1.5 stab and do serious damage to just about everyone and was banned. If it was an electric attack or something that was able to be negated by a pivot I don't think it would be as bad but as a dark attack it's only resisted by dragon, fighting and fairies (there is no x.25 resist typing just yet). However I've been using a Colbur berry to resist it and retaliate with something that will be super effective.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Golurk: 429-507 (112.3 - 132.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Colbur Berry Golurk: 214-253 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Golurk: 324-384 (84.8 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Colbur Berry Golurk: 162-192 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Edit: I mention Weavile as a strong and fast example who once abused Knock off and Golurk has some decent 89/80/80 bulk and can use Colbur to survive a hit to use a fighting attack afterwards.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

one of the things about knock off is that even stuff that normally won't bother using it actually use it due to the sheer utility it provides (e.g. the therians, shuckle,i think nidoqueen gets this too? idk). getting rid of an opponent's item is something that has existed since forever, but at the same time the opponent is also crippled by a somewhat decently powered attack at the same time (even from thundurus, he has a 100+ atk stat iirc so it still hurts quite a bit).

i think one of the things about knock off is that surprisingly, you shouldn't carry way too many knock off users. knock off's damage boost only applies once, and applies the first time you use it, so while a scrafty's knock off would hurt for example, nobody is going to bat an eyelid much about shuckle's. in fact, this may allow the opponent to gain a decent tank to knock off in the process, especially if said mon has somewhat reliable forms of recovery (i.e. chesnaught)

cobalion was one of the best bisharp switch-ins when he still existed, and i think he is probably one of the best overall switchins to knock off, since he doesn't really mind losing an item too much (though constant hazards switching hurts), has 129 defense to tank knock off, and gets a free atk boost to fire off close combats. others include bulky megas like aggron and ampharos, although neither will appreciate constant damage from hazards and knock off.

 

[Rotosect]

Knock Off is what could be described as a "S rank move" much like Sacred Fire, Stealth Rock, Steam Eruption, Shell Smash and Spore - basically there is little reason not to run this move on something that learns it.

Also, Knock Off is to Sacred Fire what Stealth Rock is to Sticky Web: the latter is an incredibly powerful move with very limited distribution, the former is an incredibly powerful move with obscenely good distribution.

It's not the move itself to be broken, but it's the distribution that makes it very hard to manage. You can only have one or maybe two dedicated Knock Off absorbers, but your opponent could easily run a functional team full of Knock Off spammers who can beat the most popular absorbers.
For example Cobalion is a solid Bisharp counter, but it sure as hell isn't switching on something like Landorus-T.
Likewise Gliscor (after the Toxic Orb has been activated) could switch on Landorus-T, but it certainly can't switch on Weavile.

 

[Petrico94]

Likewise Gliscor (after the Toxic Orb has been activated) could switch on Landorus-T, but it certainly can't switch on Weavile.

Quick reminder, this is in the UU forums. Try to stick to things now in UU or were part of early suspect tests.

 

[KingQuags]

i think one of the things about knock off is that surprisingly, you shouldn't carry way too many knock off users. knock off's damage boost only applies once, and applies the first time you use it

This is the biggest reason why I don't think Knock Off should be slapped under the "Ban now kthx" category. It's a great move and all, but once it knocks off an item, it just goes back to being a plain old base 65 power move. Nothing like Acrobatics where once the item is gone it goes boost-mania all over the place.

I can't help but keep comparing Knock Off to Scald though. Both of them have great use as a utility and offensive move. They both have plenty of distribution among pokemon that can abuse them in their own ways. And people keep on complaining that they should be banned even though they won't. However, unlike Scald, Knock Off isn't a move that an offensive pokemon can rely on for dealing consistent damage. Where Knock Off is probably one of the best coverage moves for Fighting types, who have had to lean on Payback until now, pokemon like Scrafty and offensive Krookodile (for anyone who still runs it) are missing out on damage by running Knock Off over Crunch. I'm sure people could probably play it better so if they do intend on sweeping they don't go heavy on the Knock Off before hand so they can do that during the sweep, but outside of that Knock Off is just a one-hit wonder move.

As for ways that I've been dealing with Knock Off. Mainly bulky pokemon that don't mind losing their item and bulky megas, as mentioned in a post earlier, like Amoonguss, Florges, Chesnaught, or Mega Ampharos. It's just something that has become an integral part of team building, much like including a defogger/spinner on my team. Most teams I've faced haven't been ones that include more than 2 Knock Off users, so it's not like the move is going to terrorize you for the entire game.

 

[Shaymin :D]

Btw, Two Ko's is more powerful than two Crunches (assuming the opponent has an item):

65*1.5= 97.5 + 65 = 162.5

80*2 = 160

Yeah, there is absolutely no reason to run Crunch if you get Knock Off

This is the biggest reason why I don't think Knock Off should be slapped under the "Ban now kthx" category. It's a great move and all, but once it knocks off an item, it just goes back to being a plain old base 65 power move. Nothing like Acrobatics where once the item is gone it goes boost-mania all over the place.

I can't help but keep comparing Knock Off to Scald though. Both of them have great use as a utility and offensive move. They both have plenty of distribution among pokemon that can abuse them in their own ways. And people keep on complaining that they should be banned even though they won't. However, unlike Scald, Knock Off isn't a move that an offensive pokemon can rely on for dealing consistent damage. Where Knock Off is probably one of the best coverage moves for Fighting types, who have had to lean on Payback until now, pokemon like Scrafty and offensive Krookodile (for anyone who still runs it) are missing out on damage by running Knock Off over Crunch. I'm sure people could probably play it better so if they do intend on sweeping they don't go heavy on the Knock Off before hand so they can do that during the sweep, but outside of that Knock Off is just a one-hit wonder move.

As for ways that I've been dealing with Knock Off. Mainly bulky pokemon that don't mind losing their item and bulky megas, as mentioned in a post earlier, like Amoonguss, Florges, Chesnaught, or Mega Ampharos. It's just something that has become an integral part of team building, much like including a defogger/spinner on my team. Most teams I've faced haven't been ones that include more than 2 Knock Off users, so it's not like the move is going to terrorize you for the entire game.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

the idea is more of, if say, i'm running both knock off shuckle and thundurus-t. shuckle knocks off something for lulz damage. now thundurus-t can't get that boosted knock off on the same pokemon. you can replace thundurus with stronger users like say krookodile, and... yeah you get my point.

re: rotosect's point: yeah its true, what im saying is that cobalion is an excellent switchin to the move in general, thanks to his high defense + resistance to the move, as well as having an ability that benefits from switching into the move. though, for a more relevant uu-example, we can say, replace landorus-t/weavile with thundurus-t/krookodile. now those are two pokemon that cobalion would rather avoid directly switching into, compared to bisharp, as cobalion runs the risk of getting maimed by another attack anyway.

i really dont think knock off is broken in general seeing as it's effectively just another coverage move, but yeah i can see where some of the pro-broken ppl are looking at due to the drastic effects it has on stall, where battles are longer and the lack of leftovers recovery in the long run builds up to a massive disadvantage for the stall player.

 

[Patrick1088]

Knock off is more.of an inconvenience that anything else. I find it in the similar vein as trick. Actually being tricked a scarf or specs is more crippling than knock off. I had a gligar get its dviolite knocked off by moxie hera. You know what? That gligar still.had. no problem walling the fighting and bug attacks and has access to roost. so it was still abke to do its job, but to a lesser extent.

I think the issue that most people have is not the move itself, but the fact that dark got a huge buff where the only types that resist it are dark, fighting and fairy, 2 of which share a weakness to fairy moves.

I think the most threatening knock off users were clearly the dark pokes ie bisharp with defiant, crawdaunt with adaptability and weavile with its ridiculous speed and good stabs.

Now, you have krookodile as the only user with stab and moxie to back it up. All of the otber users like escavalier, shao, torn t, shuckle, dont have the snowball effect that madethe other users so strong. One swords dance from bisharp, weavile and crawdaunt and your team is in immediate danger of being swept. Now that the main abusers are gone, i think well find it to be more balanced and just another coverage move that can be played around

 

[-Flygon-]

Knock Off is only good, not broken. IMO, it is in no way ban-worthy. To many Pokemon, Knock Off is strictly utility, with the damage being a nice bonus (Like Tangrowth, Gligar, and Deoxys-D). Some may not agree, but Knock Off doesn't seem OP or broken, IMO.

 

[V4Victini]

Knock Off is only good, not broken. IMO, it is in no way ban-worthy. To many Pokemon, Knock Off is strictly utility, with the damage being a nice bonus (Like Tangrowth, Gligar, and Deoxys-D). Some may not agree, but Knock Off doesn't seem OP or broken, IMO.

Those utility Pokemon arent the main problem. It's the Dark-type Pokemon for whom Knock Off can be used as the primary STAB, due to two hits still dealing around crunch damage on average and the first hit being 97 base power. It's not broken though, it's just the long-awaited powerful Dark-type move which happened to arrive at the same time Dark is no longer resisted by Steel.

 

[-Flygon-]

Those utility Pokemon arent the main problem. It's the Dark-type Pokemon for whom Knock Off can be used as the primary STAB, due to two hits still dealing around crunch damage on average and the first hit being 97 base power. It's not broken though, it's just the long-awaited powerful Dark-type move which happened to arrive at the same time Dark is no longer resisted by Steel.

Exactly! Dark has never been a crazy offensive type, so it's about time that the Dark types got some love.

 

[Kingpoleon]

Exactly! Dark has never been a crazy offensive type, so it's about time that the Dark types got some love.

That's not how it works... Weren't you the one suggesting BL become a tier because "they aren't any good in OU, so why not?" I would like to point out, Dark types "getting some love" generally becomes worse. They might have gotten too much, and that's why I created this thread. I have been looking for opinions, and while I respect what you stand for I do not like how you are doing it/your reasoning behind it.

knock off is good, but not broken. for some reason, people find it absolutely debilitating to lose an item. the only difference between now and last gen is the power. i am just curious, for gen V and VI users (like me), do you find the loss of an item any more crippling now than last gen?

i have been running a itemless Tornadus-T set that i saw in an RMT that was recommended by kokoloko. It has been working very well and was cusious if anybody else has had any success with itemless sets.

^this is more of the way to state an opinion. I don't mean to be mean, but please try to post your opinion with reasonable explaining, everyone!

 

[BaffleBlend]

I voted "Overpowered but not Broken". Why? There may be plenty of counters, yes, which keeps it from being broken, but the sheer number of pokémon that can learn it and the sheer number of pokémon that can be OHKO'd by it (It's essentially a one-use Dark-type Earthquake, with an added effect) make it very irritating to deal with. But hey, that's exactly the point of the Dark-type; fighting dirty and irritation. I'm not complaining about it, that's just their general fighting-style.

 

[KM]

Forgive me, but I don't see how a move can fundamentally be broken. Knock Off is about as good as a move can be; and its update combined with the buff to dark type was enough to catapult some pokemon from the depths of obscurity to as high as OU (e.g. Mandibuzz, Bisharp). Moreover, its distribution onto tank pokemon offered more utility without sacrificing power. However, I don't see how this makes it broken.

Let me rephrase. Mandibuzz used to be RU ( i think ), somewhere in the middle, and Knock Off was enough to make it into an OU mon. In other words, Knock off changed it's viability to the extent that it hopped two tiers. As a pokemon, it is now much more viable, and it's because of a very good move.

But, the traditional definition of a pokemon being broken in a tier can not be applied to a move, for move distribution transcends, yet partly creates, tiering. Knock Off catapulting Mandibuzz to OU from RU isn't an example of how the move is broken, it's merely an example of how a pokemon who was viable in one tier became suddenly viable in another tier due to a change in game mechanics.

From a 5th Gen mindset, I suppose, the move would appear "broken" on the face of it. "Dude, the Knock Off buff made mandibuzz super viable like woww". However, what Mandibuzz or any other pokemon was last generation is altogether irrelevant for how they've been tiered this generation. Regardless of whether knock off catapulted a pokemon from PU to Ubers, its current characteristics are what will determine its place in the tiers.

The only way I could see someone construing a move like Knock Off as broken would be if in the Ubers tier, pokemon with knock off were overcentralizing and/or broken. This would be a prime example of a move being so extraordinarily good that its presence in the metagame would require the foundation of an entirely separate tier. Because this is not the case, I don't know how Knock Off can be viewed as anything more than a new toy to play with.

 

[Ununhexium]

Forgive me, but I don't see how a move can fundamentally be broken. Knock Off is about as good as a move can be; and its update combined with the buff to dark type was enough to catapult some pokemon from the depths of obscurity to as high as OU (e.g. Mandibuzz, Bisharp). Moreover, its distribution onto tank pokemon offered more utility without sacrificing power. However, I don't see how this makes it broken.

Let me rephrase. Mandibuzz used to be RU ( i think ), somewhere in the middle, and Knock Off was enough to make it into an OU mon. In other words, Knock off changed it's viability to the extent that it hopped two tiers. As a pokemon, it is now much more viable, and it's because of a very good move.

But, the traditional definition of a pokemon being broken in a tier can not be applied to a move, for move distribution transcends, yet partly creates, tiering. Knock Off catapulting Mandibuzz to OU from RU isn't an example of how the move is broken, it's merely an example of how a pokemon who was viable in one tier became suddenly viable in another tier due to a change in game mechanics.

From a 5th Gen mindset, I suppose, the move would appear "broken" on the face of it. "Dude, the Knock Off buff made mandibuzz super viable like woww". However, what Mandibuzz or any other pokemon was last generation is altogether irrelevant for how they've been tiered this generation. Regardless of whether knock off catapulted a pokemon from PU to Ubers, its current characteristics are what will determine its place in the tiers.

The only way I could see someone construing a move like Knock Off as broken would be if in the Ubers tier, pokemon with knock off were overcentralizing and/or broken. This would be a prime example of a move being so extraordinarily good that its presence in the metagame would require the foundation of an entirely separate tier. Because this is not the case, I don't know how Knock Off can be viewed as anything more than a new toy to play with.

forgive me if i missed your point but i dont think it was knock off alone that made mandibuzz OU. even with the buff, its still not hitting way to hard off of a whopping B65 attack

 

[KM]

forgive me if i missed your point but i dont think it was knock off alone that made mandibuzz OU. even with the buff, its still not hitting way to hard off of a whopping B65 attack

Mandibuzz was probably a bad example. Besides Knock Off, it also got Defog and its typing in general got a bit of a buff. A better example would have been weavile, or bisharp.

The point still stands though - a move can only be considered broken if it creates unhealthy interactions within the tiers. If the move is good enough to move pokemon to other tiers in which it's balanced, then the move isn't broken.

 

[Ununhexium]

Mandibuzz was probably a bad example. Besides Knock Off, it also got Defog and its typing in general got a bit of a buff. A better example would have been weavile, or bisharp.

The point still stands though - a move can only be considered broken if it creates unhealthy interactions within the tiers. If the move is good enough to move pokemon to other tiers in which it's balanced, then the move isn't broken.

well weavile and bisharp were already good pokemon that just needed something extra. bisharp got knock off to replace night slash and also can get attack boosts easily due to the ubiquity of defog and sticky web. weavile was an awesome pokemon with bad moves so when it got a move that was decent it got banned.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Buffing Knock Off this much was probably the worst balancing decision Gamefreak has ever made. Not only is it a powerful STAB attack and coverage move for a lot of stuff, but it has a great side effect meaning things hate switching in to it even if they resist it, aside from Megas and possibly things with Justified. The 50% boost it gets when the opponent has an item is completely unnecessary IMO.

It's pretty OP, but I don't think it's totally broken.

 

[Schpoonman]

I feel like a lot of Knock Off's supposed issues have been almost entirely tempered now that Crawdaunt is out of the tier. The last Pokemon that gets STAB and has repatively high Attack is Krookodile, who certainly isn't running train on a lot of people.

What made it such an issue was (like Zoke said) these powerful Dark-types getting a powerful STAB at the exact same moment Steel, the unequivocal best defensive type, getting nerfed. So Weavile, Bisharp, and Crawdaunt all got a very powerful move that pushed them over the edge.

Now, all our main "abusers" of Knock Off are Pokemon who ise it for coverage (primarily Fighting-types, with Mienshao and Heracross as the first two to come to mind) or by tankier Pokemon who still use it for the primary purpose of getting rid of items. With them, the damage buff is just gravy and is hardly a breaking point. You can make the argument that Knock Off is still broken thanks to Mienhao, Heracross, or Tornadus, but it's a weak argument, because we're at a point in the metagame that there are no Pokemon who can use Knock Off as a sweeping move anymore.

 

[Petrico94]

Buffing Knock Off this much was probably the worst balancing decision Gamefreak has ever made. Not only is it a powerful STAB attack and coverage move for a lot of stuff, but it has a great side effect meaning things hate switching in to it even if they resist it, aside from Megas and possibly things with Justified. The 50% boost it gets when the opponent has an item is completely unnecessary IMO.

It's pretty OP, but I don't think it's totally broken.

Maybe they'll add 3-5 more great counters to it that are in range of UU when Z comes out.

 

[ouchalargerock]

Maybe they'll add 3-5 more great counters to it that are in range of UU when Z comes out.

If they are in the Range of UU when they are buffed to help against Knock Off, they will most definitely be moved to OU

 

[azureleaf17]

I read somewhere that Knock Off might have been Game Freak's way of encouraging people to use pinch berries (Salac, Petaya, Liechi, etc.) and these kinds of one-time activation moves in general (Red Card). Although I don't see how this would make people use things that aren't directly activated by Knock Off's effects, like the status-curing berries and the ones that weaken upon super effective hits... maybe it was Game Freak's intention to make Pokemon less dependent on their items in general, but then they went and introduced Mega Stones.

Trying to decipher Game Freak's logic is like trying to reason with a toddler — you know your logic is better, but it's impossible for you to understand them, it's impossible for you to win, and you keep coming back for more.

 

[Nysyr]

I read somewhere that Knock Off might have been Game Freak's way of encouraging people to use pinch berries (Salac, Petaya, Liechi, etc.) and these kinds of one-time activation moves in general (Red Card). Although I don't see how this would make people use things that aren't directly activated by Knock Off's effects, like the status-curing berries and the ones that weaken upon super effective hits... maybe it was Game Freak's intention to make Pokemon less dependent on their items in general, but then they went and introduced Mega Stones.

Trying to decipher Game Freak's logic is like trying to reason with a toddler — you know your logic is better, but it's impossible for you to understand them, it's impossible for you to win, and you keep coming back for more.

If that were the case then why do consumed-before-hit items like WP and Colbur berry still boost knockoff.

 

[Ununhexium]

i think knock off might have been game freak's method of trying to make dark a better offensive type maybe?

just curious, what is WP? its completely slipping my mind right now