Other Stall

Status
Not open for further replies.
I went ahead and got pretty decently high on the suspect ladder with a ... really freaking wierd stall team that came together strangely. I don't want to necessarily call this a good team but it has a few interesting poke's in it that might otherwise be overlooked. The fact that they were able to switch into some of the top OUs and not be 2hko'd is a testemant to the teambuilding.

At a glance: Bulky Wish Pass Alomomola, anti-bisharp Defog Latias, Assault Vest Slowking, Heal Bell and SR scrappy Miltank, CM Clefable, SD Roost MegaScizor

Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 228 HP / 140 Def / 140 SDef
Impish Nature
- Scald
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Wish

Latias (F) @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 160 SDef / 96 Spd
Careful Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 148 SAtk / 112 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Fire Blast

Miltank (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell
- Stealth Rock
- Milk Drink
- Seismic Toss

Scizor @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Roost
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 212 HP / 248 Def / 48 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Wish
- Protect
I started with the Scizor and Clefable. Some might characterize them as bulky offense or something but I don't really want to split hairs here. They both come with bulk and reliable recovery. I refused to give either of these pokemon any team-support moves such as heal bell or defog. They are the best offensive prescence that I have and they need every single move.

Following this, it's time for full stall mode. I needed to find a heal beller, a deffoger, and a SR setter. I also needed pokemon that can reliably switch into threats such as charizard xy, landorus-I, thundurus-I, megagyarados, garchomp, and aegislash. Clearly it's impossible to cover every single set but I feel like I have been battling very well and surviving OU with some pretty non-standard (and maybe subpar, who knows) pokemon.

The alomomola-slowking regenerator tandem can be absolutely epic at times, and Power Gem is a sweet move, but these two leave me obviously open to rotom-w, zapdos, and thundurus. Now, both of them can take a hit or two depending on whether the offender is LO or lefties, but clearly we need some electric resistance involved, and that lead to latias being on the team. It's VERY unfortunate that I didn't fit a ground type on the team, which I absolutely will do next time.

Anyway, I wanted latias to be able to stand a chance against incoming bisharps so I gave her a colbur berry and HP Fighting, which has proven critical a few times. Focusing so much on bisharp made me reallly truly realize just how goddamn hard it is to get dark resists on a team. Bisharp unfortunately pwns faeries which leaves only fighting and dark types to possibly resist the sucker punches out there, but I haven't found such a pokemon except for sabelye, who I may use in the upcoming team. This idea may be better utilized by mew, who has will-o-wisp.

Miltank? Well, it has heal bell and SR, and I didn't want a pokemon that dies to aegislash. Miltank instead wins against some aegis variants but loses to the flash cannon ones.

Special attacks are the main problem the team has. With no chansey it takes some real team building planning to get things in order. Not much out there can switch into charizard-y for example, but with careful EVs both water types on the team can survive and hit back.

This isn't an RMT because I've really grown to see the huge issues the team has, but I wanted to point out a few stall ideas that MIGHT be able to be worked into a few niche positions.



I feel like in addition to ground and flying/levitate, a normal type might be required for stall, unless there's some magic pokemon out there that otherwise switches into aegislash with no problems. Conkeldurr maybe?

I also think that some kind of assault vest pivot is required on teams that lack their chansey, because it's otherwise impossible to prepare a team of 6 to sponge all of the outrageous special attacks running around right now.

As far as normal types go, there's not much except Chansey, Blissey, Wigglytuff, Snorlax, Meloetta, Miltank, and Porygons. I have used meloetta before, with her hyper voice that hits behind subs and her fast heal bell. I think my next team will incorporate her again. She sure fucks with aegislash, it's delicious.

I may also drop clefable because she doesn't provide quite as many switch in opportunities as I would like; once she sets up she's obviously amazing but the problem is pretty much any LO sweeper 2hkos her. She's such a nice clutch to have with the Unaware ability but I feel like such clutch could be replaced with prankster users as well.

Anyway, I've rambled on too much, and I hope people experiment with random stuff and try to find a few viable sets that have been overlooked. Alomomola is on the rise, and for good reason. She serves as the best example of a great stall pokemon that slipped through the cracks until it got rediscovered.

In the meantime I want to pose a question that has just been killing me lately.

What stally defoggers can beat the incoming life orb bisharp? Alternatively, what spinners can beat aegislash?
 
56k I didn't want to direct quote since that'd take a lot of editting so I'm just going to quote the parts I need via copy/paste.

The alomomola-slowking regenerator tandem can be absolutely epic at times, and Power Gem is a sweet move, but these two leave me obviously open to rotom-w, zapdos, and thundurus. Now, both of them can take a hit or two depending on whether the offender is LO or lefties, but clearly we need some electric resistance involved, and that lead to latias being on the team. It's VERY unfortunate that I didn't fit a ground type on the team, which I absolutely will do next time.
I'm pretty sure the full HP Slowking AV set you're using can check Thundy-i before it nasty plots. The set looks like Alexwolf's Slowking for checking Zard-Y, so I'm not sure how it would struggle with something that had less SpA. If I had to point to an issue, it'd be alomomola. You might try Quagsire for the bulky DDancers (Bar Gyarados-mega) as this also gives you an electric resist that will generally win vs Zapdos and is a good check to Rotom (But does not like Hydro pumps, about 40% taken I think). Thundy-i without a grass move is also checked, although some do run grass.

Anyway, I wanted latias to be able to stand a chance against incoming bisharps so I gave her a colbur berry and HP Fighting, which has proven critical a few times. Focusing so much on bisharp made me reallly truly realize just how goddamn hard it is to get dark resists on a team. Bisharp unfortunately pwns faeries which leaves only fighting and dark types to possibly resist the sucker punches out there, but I haven't found such a pokemon except for sabelye, who I may use in the upcoming team. This idea may be better utilized by mew, who has will-o-wisp.
I'm guessing this is hit/miss... especially if you defog into a Bisharp. I'm also guessing your speed is enough to outspeed max bisharp to avoid getting the berry knocked off? But yes, this is a tremendously good point, dark resists are insanely few and far between with pokemon stall can run as they're resisted by fight and dark. I think I had a grand total of 6 dark/fight pokemon that also had recovery: Chesnaught, Virizion, Hawlucha, Umbreon, Hydregion, Mandibuzz. There may be more dark types with recovery but none really worth looking at. But for Bisharp specifically, Quagsire also works. Chesnaught is the second best, really, but does not enjoy getting flinched by iron head... In fact, at +2 flinch means you lose. That's why I like to have Quagsire as backup.

But yeah. The dark type is really an issue this generation. A lot of stall teams run completely blind without any dark resists and it is a fatal flaw to when dealing with Bisharp.

I feel like in addition to ground and flying/levitate, a normal type might be required for stall, unless there's some magic pokemon out there that otherwise switches into aegislash with no problems. Conkeldurr maybe?
As ironic as it is, right now Bisharp is becoming one of the best Aegislash switches because they keep running this damn subtoxic set. Someone warned me about it before it actually came up and so I found space for EQ on Chesnaught (Thus making it possible for me to win that game) but it means that right now Aegi's potential is being boiled into a toxic/Shadow Ball coverage, although not preparing for SS would be a bad idea. I guess Heatran is a really good switch, too. Chesnaught/Mandi will still deal a ton of damage but the sub set is a bit more difficult to stop.

I also think that some kind of assault vest pivot is required on teams that lack their chansey, because it's otherwise impossible to prepare a team of 6 to sponge all of the outrageous special attacks running around right now.
Assault vest definitely makes it easier. I'm running a team with none, just banking on the fact the meta is really physical and the fact that two of my uninvested Spdef pokes have pretty good Special bulk inherently (Pory2/Sylveon... Couple well with Gyarados, really). The only issue with assault vest is it just really needs a regenerator user on stall or something with so much bulk and so great synergy with a cleric that passing is effortless. I just substituted that with the fact that I have five pokes with recovery (4 reliable) and Chesnaught paired well with Sylveon (Synthesis wasn't as useful as Spiky Shield).

As far as normal types go, there's not much except Chansey, Blissey, Wigglytuff, Snorlax, Meloetta, Miltank, and Porygons. I have used meloetta before, with her hyper voice that hits behind subs and her fast heal bell. I think my next team will incorporate her again. She sure fucks with aegislash, it's delicious.
I used Meloetta at the beginning of the generation thanks to RS Swept (Costa) telling me that she would be one of the best aegislash stops. And it still holds true, as heal bell/shadow ball stops every single Aegi set. The form change is absolutely worthless and people going for that are generally not using meloetta correctly (Have seen some rare cases), but meloetta is like one move from being a really good assault vest user...

What stally defoggers can beat the incoming life orb bisharp? Alternatively, what spinners can beat aegislash?
There is a zapdos set that destroys bisharp, but I'm not sure what the EV set was... I'm sure the SpA was somewhere in the 60s or 80s, and the speed investment was minimal but it was completely counter Bisharp without HP fight... Could save some EVs and go HP fight, though. Scizor-mega will also beat Bisharp with Super Power or Brick Break.

For aegislash, I think Excadrill kind of works, but Blastoise-mega is the clear-cut answer. Could even run rest Blastoise-mega and Dark Pulse just plows through Aegislash. I'm not sure any other spinners can beat Aegislash...


Btw, It needs to be mentioned that Quagsire's stock, while still incredibly high, is tanking fast... It's unfortunate, but good players recognize Quagsire as a cornerstone of stall and have started to sneak grass Hidden powers and grass attacks where you generally wouldn't expect them just to eliminate Quag for a setup sweeper. Thundy-I comes to mind as abusing Quag switches to destroy Quag. And it is a real issue, meaning scouting is just all the more important.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 56k
My team is a bit weak to thundurus and keldeo. Is there any pokemon that can switch into both of them? They seem like a good offensive core to me ATM, since the few thing that commonly switch into keldeo such as azumarill or slowbro get killed by thundurus. Megavenusaur was good until both thundurus and keldeo started packing hp flying just for him.

I am thinking lati@s but they dont like a nast plot boosted hp ice. Sp Def cresselia seems like it could work. Any suggestions?
 
Grass types are your best option, tbh. Something like Mega Venusaur would only be bothered by HP Flying from Thundyi. Celebi should do good work vs both.

Something like Storm Drain Craidily might work... Sounds shaky, though. Would need Max Defense.
 
My team is a bit weak to thundurus and keldeo. Is there any pokemon that can switch into both of them? They seem like a good offensive core to me ATM, since the few thing that commonly switch into keldeo such as azumarill or slowbro get killed by thundurus. Megavenusaur was good until both thundurus and keldeo started packing hp flying just for him.

I am thinking lati@s but they dont like a nast plot boosted hp ice. Sp Def cresselia seems like it could work. Any suggestions?
Specially defensive Sylveon does a good job. It avoids the 2HKO from Specs Hydro Pump and Thundurus-I already needs Life Orb to 2HKO after a Nasty Plot (most carry Lefties). Meanwhile it can OHKO Keldeo and 2HKO Thundurus with Hyper Voice, while providing great support with Heal Bell and Wish.
 
I made a different team and the highest I managed to get on the ladder was around 1400 elo, decent maybe but it's not voting requirements yet. I decided I wanted to use a stall team of 5 members + ditto. Having ditto alleviates so many problems that stall has in terms of people setting up on you. I combined this with unwaware clefable to further prevent setting up as much as I could.

However, the game just becomes a circus at 1400+. Pinsir, Mawile, and Charizard-Y spam combined with NP thundurus, various landorus-I sets, keldeo (fucking keldeo), and not to mention the deoxys-d/s leads. Talonflame, bisharp, manaphy, latis,venusaur, chansey, gyarados and aegis are sprinkled in as well. At that point the best I was able to do is get every game down into a 50/50 scenario. We like to call it prediction but honestly it's those situations where the difference between using SR or using roost will change the outcome of the game completely depending on what the opponent does. Not to mention a few games spoiled by thundurus's thunder wave hax in the final moments.

I ran into almost exactly the same team of charizard, aegislash, latias, thundurus, stealth rock filler, priority filler over and over and over, though charizard switches between pinsir and mawile depending on different people.

Anyway I would say stall is relevant; playable for sure. I just don't have enough switch ins for char, mawile, and pinsir all at the same time though. Or, at least this team doesn't. Again, though, I want to stress that almost all games came down to coinflippy predictions, which might be what people want? I'm not sure, but it sure isn't good for stall when you lose your wall!

At those higher levels that I'm just starting to get in to, stall can only be characterized as "survives 2 hits". There's nothing even close to the leech seed spamming rain stall we had in gen V with ferro, politoed, tentacruel, and jirachi. The game is just broken offensive now and it takes serious teambuilding to even manage to fit heal bell on a set when another move such as thunder wave or stone edge could give you the crucial move you need when you run into something like a boosting tornadus.

Finally, the charizard mawile and pinsir spam has made me seriously reconsider the team I made and start from scratch again. I definitely had some fun ideas here (slightly bulky mega aerodactly? hey, it counters charizard and pinsir and talonflame and gets roost) but a stall team needs to be able to indefinitely switch into these pokemon, and I only had aerodactly as a counter, and some weak checks otherwise)

Shaymin, Alomomola, Clefable, Mandibuzz, AerodactylMega, Ditto

I started 20-and-5 and ended 27-and-10

Some neat pokemons there for sure but I again ran into issues because I didn't have a ground type for electric immunity, and I didnt have enough charizard, mawile, medicham, and pinsir switch ins. I also straight lose to venusaur lol. Overlooked that...

Anyway, I refuse to believe these wall breakin' mons are too much for a good stalling team. I may have also been artificially handicapping myself by not using chansey or skarmory. I don't feel they're necessary, but I also think a new team is in order. Probably starting with either hippowdon or tyranitar or politoed.

I also want to spend some time thinking about the idea of "having a switch in" vs "not allowing them to set up"

It might be unfeasible to cover everything exactly. Aj pointed out earler that most stall teams have 3 physical walls and 3 special walls. Therefore, teams with 4 physical sweepers or 4 special ones will be advantaged. A pokemon like venusaur might hopefully have the idea of being a mixed wall, so therefore all the good teams at the top of the ladder are targeting things like venu, chansey, slowbro, and other "mixed" stall mons.

Here's my team, it was fun, but I'm retiring it. A few too many holes despite how well it occasionally worked.

Shaymin @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 204 HP / 20 Def / 252 SDef / 32 Spd
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aromatherapy
- Leech Seed
- Giga Drain
- Synthesis

Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 228 HP / 140 Def / 140 SDef
Impish Nature
- Scald
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Wish

Clefable (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast

Mandibuzz (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 220 HP / 96 Def / 192 Spd
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Roost
- Iron Defense
- Foul Play

Aerodactyl (M) @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 244 HP / 224 Def / 40 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- Stealth Rock
- Fly
- Rock Slide

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
Bold Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Transform
-
-
-

Shaymin is shaymin, leech seeding things. Alomomola is my new favorite bulky water. Standard clefable. The mandibuzz can beat mawile and bisharp if it boosts first. Aerodactly can switch into char-y's fire blast twice. Dear god I wish he had brave bird though. And finally, ditto.

Going forward, every stall team I make will incorporate ditto. That leaves the challenge of finding the 6 biggest bulkiest mofo's with electric immunity, ground immunity, dragon immunity, poison immunity, fire resist, dark resist, water resist, fairy resist, and solar beam resist.
 
TFL had a post about every team he made keeps a formula of a pinsir-m check/counter, Zard-Y check/counter, Bulky DDance counter and some other stuff... that was how he started to form his teams. Personally, it's pretty good. Right now, I feel I have the whole meta covered but mawile and a bit of manaphy with 1 special wall and a few pokemon having some salvageable special bulk (I do live on the edge vs some special attackers, but I know I can win most non-hax scenarios.)

Yuttt is using a AggroChansey core to incredible success. He has four other pokes to fill in some holes (Mainly fighting weakness, he has three resists out of the other four pokemon) and just outbulks the meta. I would say that right now, a fast taunter is something stall could benefit from. I took my second loss that I'd consider a fair loss where I was just outplayed yesterday to a Deo-D I just couldn't stop. I didn't really try to, but just never got the opportunity to defog later. The Deo-D spam teams lead rise to Excadrill and Blastoise-mega being good pokemon, too. But for the most part, I feel the meta is so focused, this game is starting to get easy to counter. Stop Deo-D. Counter Bisharp, Aegislash, Keldeo, Lando-i, thundy-i. Prepare for zards, prepare for mawile, pinsir-m, have something for a random Dark type Ddancer. GG all hyper offense teams.

Or at least that's what it feels like. I think I'm gonna post about Sylveon soon. Also tempted to borrow Yuttt's Aggron-mega set and do something. In the OU room, I'm noticing a lot of stall players starting to really break the old venutran core, and there has really been some fun teams to watch. The style is diversifying a little, which is the complete opposite of offensive teams that think they're reaching a pinnacle.
 
Not resttalk, just rest. I feel that I can either wishpass and heal bell or just stall out the three turns consistently enough that I don't need to spend 2 moveslots on resttalk.

I think the main reason I run a fast taunter is just to beat the other fast taunters. It's nice to have it on your SRer to help keep it up, but not necessary if you have a way to deal with things like mew and gliscor.

Also, a trend I've been noticing is that heatran is getting less common, as the only real purpose it serves on stall is to get SR up (and beat skarm), and beat mega mawile and other fairies.

BTW Ajwf the reason I list P2 as one of the counters to megachomp (good ones have a chance to 2HKO after rocks though...) is that when you trace sand veil/sand force, you negate sandstorm damage, evading the 2HKO
 
It can't KO you regardless, the calc was completely impossible lel. 252+ both sides, I think. Plus, special chomp is kinda bad. Like it has dragon and fire coverage special side, and maybe earth power but why would you use that unless Regirock was an issue to your team :/

I tracked away from heatran mostly because the meta was preparing more for heatran, and the fact that heatran gets beat by a lot of rock setters. His role puts him in an awkward place even with an excellent defensive typing. But yeah, I think right now most stall builders are experimenting outside the comfort of a VenuTran core.

Right now on the "Starter Kit" stall cores we seen to have, AggroChansey, SkarmBliss, VenuTran, GyaraNaught should all be mentioned... I bet I'm missing a few basic core ideas to be honest. Sylveon+Slowbro works pretty well, I've learned. Just thinking on the more common weapons stall can use:

(Aegislash, Heatran, M-Venusaur, Sylveon, SlowbroFamily, Rotom-W and -H, Chansey, Gyarados, Chesnaught, Quagsire, Clefable, Togekiss, Hippowdon, Mew, Umbreon, Pory2 [definitely an option], Mandibuzz, M-Scizor, M-Aggron, Latias, Zapdos, Skarmory, M-Zard-X, TTar [trust me, it works], Suicune, Sableye, Gourgeist-Super)

There should be a lot more options. And this isn't even including slightly niche defensive walls like Cresselia, Alomomola [deserves mention at least], Uxie/Mespirit, Milotic [outclassed by Suicune but status absorbs like a boss], Empoleon, Yuttt's Manatine, and Cofagrigus, as well as the faster attackers/utility odd balls like Tornadus-T and Garchomp that stall will occasionally run for whatever purpose. In short, there's still a long way to go and it'd be sad to see a setting style like the VenuTran dominate the personality of stall for too many months while we still haven't dug through some major pokes we've yet to use (Mesprit hardcounters Lando-I I've heard).

So, if you're building stall still, let's continue to flesh out a bit. We've already got some good teams (Yuttt still refusing to RMT his team, Orda still working on stuff... TFL mashing buttons and creating random goldmines of idiotic genius, and a few other people in OU (Alt name 'Sorry for Stall' for example) all have some interesting teams. I'm not going to say there's going to be like some epiphany but still I love seeing all the interesting teams.
 
I'm somewhat surprised that Deoxys-D hasn't seen a real lot of use on Stall Teams this gen. One reason might be because it's normally associated with Hyper Offense, running max speed and a one-time-use moveset which basically makes it more of a suicide lead than anything else (albeit still a very good and reliable one). However, I think the overall better and more valuable Deo-D's are the ones that are able to sustain themselves with Recover, act as a very bulky (and quite universal) pivot, and set-up entry hazards and support the team continuously throughout the game. In terms of raw bulk, Deoxys-D is the second best mixed wall in the game after Chansey; there aren't many things in the game that can 2HKO a Deo-D that has investment in one or both defensive stats in addition to the standard HP investment. This gives it an edge over most other walls which often have a case of only being able to take hits comfortably from one side.

Deo-D also has a damn vast, amazing movepool, with options like: Spikes, Stealth Rock, Reflect, Light Screen, Magic Coat, Counter, Mirror Coat, Taunt, Psycho Shift, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Recover, Knock Off, Night Shade, Seismic Toss, Calm Mind, Cosmic Power, Iron Defense, Amnesia, and even more. It can also be unpredictable and run an attacking move like Superpower or Focus Blast to surprise and 1HKO Bisharp, which is an incredibly important threat for stall to dispose of as soon as possible.

Deoxys-D also puts a ton of pressure (literally) on opposing stall teams and is usually dreaded to no end by them. Having a fast Taunt and a movepool to abuse it, all while sucking up the opponents precious PP makes him a huge asset in stall vs stall. It also crucifies SwagPlay by littering their field with hazards, Taunting them which forces them to attack, which finally makes them take damage from Deo-D's Rocky Helmet, even if they are behind a substitute, while you can just Recover off the damage you take (which is hardly anything with a Bold nature).

Deoxys-Defense @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 Def / 252 HP / 8 Spd
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Recover

This set is something I just threw together recently to test out the long-life concept, and even as a throw-together it has performed well. If you have something else on your team that can use Stealth Rock, it could easily be omitted from this set for something like Seismic Toss or Knock Off, which then gives Deo-D more utility and allows it to Stallbreak special attackers like Heatran and Mega Venusaur, and provide a means of inflicting direct damage. The Rocky Helmet makes Rapid Spinning against Deo-D futile, as the defensive EV's mean that Excadrill wont be doing any meaningful damage to you at all, while you can just keep chiseling away at it with an attacking move, and laying down more hazards after every spin which will bring Drill closer to his inevitable doom. The Rocky Helmet is also a good additional source of residual damage against a lot of different physical attackers, helping your team bring them down easier.

The EV's can be for whatever your team needs, whether it be Special, Defense, Speed, or a combination of any.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-102109579
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-102111013 (Also shows Mandibuzz, another underrated stall mon, doing a lot of work)

And damn, Ditto is underrated for Stall as well right now, but I'll leave that for another post.
 
Last edited:
I tried a Taunt Toxic Deo-D on my team and I just found that the things it beat (Kyu-B, some fighting types, etc) were better handled by other things (like MScizor). I would never use a pokemon dedicated to setting up spikes with no other niche because they're so inconsistent. I would only stick them on something like Chesnaught, who offers a lot more utility so spikes is just a bonus. As a stallbreaker, I'd rather use Mew who has better bulk on either side depending on what you invest in, WoW, and a bunch of coverage moves to fit a teams needs.

ScarfTar has been doing massive work for me in KOing key threats like MPinsir and Char-Y, along with surprising Landorus and Gliscor with IB. Another cool thing I've been using on a more semistallish team is SpD Talonflame which is a great switchin to Char-Y and Special Landorus-I along with being able to revenge kill MPinsir. Priority Roost and a really fast WoW are amazing, and with Taunt he can stall break nicely.

As for methods of dealing with opposing stall, outside of using a lot of fast taunts, I've been using Roar Heatran. Teams that depend on Sylveon to keep everyone healthy and switch in on Heatran are relatively fucked because I can Roar as they Protect for the Wish. It's the same situation for Clefable, and if you have hazards, Chansey will slowly be worn down as well.
 

The Shellder Smuggler

Banned deucer.
I'm somewhat surprised that Deoxys-D hasn't seen a real lot of use on Stall Teams this gen. One reason might be because it's normally associated with Hyper Offense, running max speed and a one-time-use moveset which basically makes it more of a suicide lead than anything else (albeit still a very good and reliable one). However, I think the overall better and more valuable Deo-D's are the ones that are able to sustain themselves with Recover, act as a very bulky (and quite universal) pivot, and set-up entry hazards and support the team continuously throughout the game. In terms of raw bulk, Deoxys-D is the second best mixed wall in the game after Chansey; there aren't many things in the game that can 2HKO a Deo-D that has investment in one or both defensive stats in addition to the standard HP investment. This gives it an edge over most other walls which often have a case of only being able to take hits comfortably from one side.

Deo-D also has a damn vast, amazing movepool, with options like: Spikes, Stealth Rock, Reflect, Light Screen, Magic Coat, Counter, Mirror Coat, Taunt, Psycho Shift, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Recover, Knock Off, Night Shade, Seismic Toss, Calm Mind, Cosmic Power, Iron Defense, Amnesia, and even more. It can also be unpredictable and run an attacking move like Superpower or Focus Blast to surprise and 1HKO Bisharp, which is an incredibly important threat for stall to dispose of as soon as possible.

Deoxys-D also puts a ton of pressure (literally) on opposing stall teams and is usually dreaded to no end by them. Having a fast Taunt and a movepool to abuse it, all while sucking up the opponents precious PP makes him a huge asset in stall vs stall. It also crucifies SwagPlay by littering their field with hazards, Taunting them which forces them to attack, which finally makes them take damage from Deo-D's Rocky Helmet, even if they are behind a substitute, while you can just Recover off the damage you take (which is hardly anything with a Bold nature).

Deoxys-Defense @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 Def / 252 HP / 8 Spd
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Recover

This set is something I just threw together recently to test out the long-life concept, and even as a throw-together it has performed well. If you have something else on your team that can use Stealth Rock, it could easily be omitted from this set for something like Seismic Toss or Knock Off, which then gives Deo-D more utility and allows it to Stallbreak special attackers like Heatran and Mega Venusaur, and provide a means of inflicting direct damage. The Rocky Helmet makes Rapid Spinning against Deo-D futile, as the defensive EV's mean that Excadrill wont be doing any meaningful damage to you at all, while you can just keep chiseling away at it with an attacking move, and laying down more hazards after every spin which will bring Drill closer to his inevitable doom. The Rocky Helmet is also a good additional source of residual damage against a lot of different physical attackers, helping your team bring them down easier.

The EV's can be for whatever your team needs, whether it be Special, Defense, Speed, or a combination of any.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-102109579
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-102111013 (Also shows Mandibuzz, another underrated stall mon, doing a lot of work)

And damn, Ditto is underrated for Stall as well right now, but I'll leave that for another post.
One set I never understood was the default set on smogon:

Deoxys Leftovers
Nature: Calm
Ability: Pressure
- Taunt
- Agility
- Toxic
- Recover

What?

Also, I tried your set, works like a charm.
 
I would never use a pokemon dedicated to setting up spikes with no other niche because they're so inconsistent.
Not really imo. Deoxys-D is very consistent and reliable at setting up Spikes and/or Stealth Rock, and can also quite consistently prevent them from being defogged or Rapid Spun away, or at the very least punish and severely wear down the things that attempt to do so. And the actual good part about him is that his movepool allows him to fill another role of your choosing while he's at it, like spreading paralysis, Taunting to prevent other forms of set-up like hazards going down on your side, and so on.

As a stallbreaker, I'd rather use Mew who has better bulk on either side depending on what you invest in, WoW, and a bunch of coverage moves to fit a teams needs.
Mew doesn't actually have better bulk than Deoxys-D:

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 127-150 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

Then on the uninvested side:

252 SpA Victini Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Victini Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO

The difference is especially noticeable on the uninvested side.

One set I never understood was the default set on smogon:

Deoxys Leftovers
Nature: Calm
Ability: Pressure
- Taunt
- Agility
- Toxic
- Recover

What?

Also, I tried your set, works like a charm.
That was a classic old set from Deo-D's first gen. Basically, it was just meant to use agility to ensure that it could outspeed and Taunt everything to prevent setting up and recovery, then just poison it and spam recover until it fainted. Isn't useful or viable anymore because of all the things that are immune to Toxic, as well as new threats which are more powerful than they were back then.
 
Last edited:
Woops, guess I was misinformed on the bulk part, my bad.

What i meant by the first part is that it counters very little in comparison to stuff like Chesnaught or Skarmory who also set up spikes. If you're running Taunt and recovery, you only have 2 slots to play with, and not using hazards means DeoD is losing his main niche. It has the same problems I have with Mew such as offering few resistances, so you're leaving the other 5 pokes to handle the rest of the meta. I just don't feel that it offers enough in comparison to other spikers to use it over them.
 
One set I never understood was the default set on smogon:

Deoxys Leftovers
Nature: Calm
Ability: Pressure
- Taunt
- Agility
- Toxic
- Recover

What?

Also, I tried your set, works like a charm.
That set was designed as a sort of stallbreaker with Toxic + Taunt. The goal is to set up an Agility to outspeed pretty much everything of note, after which Deoxys-D can Taunt the opponent to prevent them from Taunting Deoxys-D, Tricking a Choice item onto it, statusing it, healing themselves, etc. Then it's just a matter of Toxic stalling the opponent and healing with Recover whenever necessary. Besides, that set was designed for BW Ubers, not XY OU. In fact, the XY analysis doesn't even mention Agility anywhere and only mentions Toxic a handful of times.
 
Here's Sylveon, "The Beast" from Monty Python.


The set used here will be:

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Def
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Protect
- Wish
- Heal Bell


Sylveon is a beast to handle, so let's quickly outline what I want to talk about.
1. Role as a Cleric
a. Bulk issues?
b. Offensive Cleric Advantages

2. Counter Killing Nuke
a. Vs Kyurem-B
b. Vs Mega Gyarados
c. Vs Mega Heracross
d. Any others

3. Metagame Relevance
a. Checks/Counters
b. Good teammates
c. Other options

4. Synopsis

1. Role as a Cleric

So as I discussed earlier, Sylveon is the more "Offensive" or lighter cleric from the common group stall teams choose from. With less recovery (no softboil), a crucial comparative lack of bulk and a massive attack in Pixilated Hyper Voice, it is only natural Sylveon plays differently. Having now had the chance to use it, I've been able to draw a few assumptions.
  • It doesn't have as many turns to work as something like Chansey. I knew going in it couldn't switch in, but the bulk constantly has it a bit closer to the edge. There are quite a few times where your bulk simply isn't enough to sit around and pass wishes freely.
  • Coming in is actually not as bad as I thought it was... I did overestimate that a bit. The presence of dragons is strong, and Sylveon can still pick a few pokemon to wish against. It still can generally get no more than a heal bell and wish off before being completely on the back foot.
  • Hyper Voice does just as I expected in forcing pokemon off the field, and keeping some dangerous threats a bit scared to come in. While it doesn't scare out a lot of Hyper Offensive pokemon, this generally isn't an issue as I'm choosing who to come in.
  • The wishes are often a bit sad... But it will almost always give you enough health to shrug off the attack you come in on.
Bulk issues?

So a few things need to be adjusted with my first idea. Sylveon isn't really a "Long term" health solution, most pokemon on a team with Sylveon need their own form of recovery or at least protect to get some added leftovers. In this, it almost clerics for the switches, which shouldn't be too bad considering that you still get full HP on turns when your opponent switches to take on your predicted switch, and if you're making a switch into a counter, you'll still gain SOMETHING, just not the wish bombs chansey has.

The bulk does suck, as choosing Sylveon can sometimes mean losing to massive attackers such as Charizard-Y and even non-Sludge Wave Landorus... Although you should never rely on Sylveon for something with a poison attack. Physically, you're roughly the same even uninvested into the physical side as chansey, but with a better typing. However, investing in that side brings you to a healthy number as a physical cleric, you just lose more ability to take the special metagame. But, fairy could be argued to be a better physically defensive typing anyways with resists to Fight, Bug and dark so this isn't a terrible loss.

Offensive Cleric Advantages

One of the coolest things about Sylveon is that massive boom bust-esque attack in hyper voice. Fairy has pretty decent coverage, especially neutral and the resistances are actually an advantage to Sylveon in some cases. Remember that Steel is the most popular resist to Fairy, although fire is there as well. Defensive pokemon like heatran still don't have a steel stab, so Sylveon can buy turns against the defensive steels to gain some extra cleric turns.

More importantly, the pokemon it keeps out makes sure that some issues just don't surface. For example, Greninja and Bisharp, both which can be hell for stall, just don't want to risk that prediction since Sylveon isn't necessarily a "cleric first" pokemon... It takes an offensive standpoint fairly easily, so just the respect players have to give Sylveon can allow you to buy a few turns or keep those threats out. It isn't to be underestimated: 110 SpA is some of the highest offensive stats seen on stall, short of heatran and Aegi... But Sylveon's Hyper Voice with Pixilate comes to 135 base power, which probably IS the highest BP attack seen on stall. Saying Sylveon provides some of the most pressure a stall team can exert is not an understatement. All this simply means you can scare your opponent into a safe play and make your life easier... Or simply start going for blood.

2. Counter Nuke Killing

"Want an answer to all stall teams? Run Kyurem-black". This is not an uncommon quote from people in the Showdown OU Room, a room that prides itself on having the highest collective knowledge of the OU tier... I mean, you hear it with M-Mawile, M-Gyarados and even Sableye... The imaginary "One Size fits all" Stall/Wall Breaker. However, there is no doubt that every one of the previously mentioned pokemon can really rock your world as a stall player (Slightly questionable Mawile... Given heatran/Skarm/Venu should cover everything but I digress). Of course, this belief is because VenuTran cores are pretty squarely destroyed by a Kyurem-black. While no good stall team is just helpless vs all wall breakers, there are definitely issues with these pokemon. Of course, you'll need a clean switch, but Sylveon happens to assist in solving more than the fair share of "Nuke" wall breakers.

Vs Kyurem-B

I'm not going to lie, this thing is still in my secret "Top Ten Please Ban Soon" list. It has 700 base stat, 170/120 attacks, a ton of bulk, and just enough move pool to kindly say "Fuck you" to anything slower than it. Did I mention stall teams don't run speed? While this monster is still an issue, there have been some limited pokemon that could take it this generation. Mainly, Ferrothorn, Scizor-mega, and the (Soon to be if not yet) beloved Sylveon. There are two standard sets this monster runs. The first is sub+3 attack (Mandatory Ice Beam and Earth Power, generally Fusion bolt 3rd). This set is leftovers due to sub. Occasionally, LO roost three attack pop up, but it really doesn't matter. Regardless, Special Kyub looks like this to Sylveon:
With LO
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Sylveon: 144-172 (36.5 - 43.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Without
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Sylveon: 111-132 (28.1 - 33.5%) -- 93.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
(To give you an idea, this thing's uninvested Att on Fusion bolt is essentially the calc of ice beam +1.5% for most relevant purposes):
0 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sylveon: 118-139 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 300-354 (76.5 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So assuming WCS LO coming up, you're still OHKO'ing with no issue.


As seen by these calcs, Kyub is handily solved from the special side, and subbing is doom... taking a hit is doom. And no, the + nature SpDef is not a mistake. Physical Kyub is a bit more difficult. CB will flat out OHKO under the condition of Iron head, however this is rare all around and can be scouted at the very least. Specifically, rocks up and no Leftovers recovery is a good eye to recognize physical... a bit of scouting (or just getting hit) can check LO/Scarf/Band (By calcs). Implementing protect and such is also a good idea for this. But LO is the common one, so I'm discussing that. Not all physical Kyubs even carry Iron head, but for relevance:

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sylveon: 315-372 (79.9 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sylveon: 196-231 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 70.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Yes, you need a free switch on these, but you'll still be OHKO'ing after LO damage. In essence, Sylveon is killing these things or leaving it incredibly disabled. Yes, the flinch has is real, but this is still one of the best options.

Vs Gyarados-mega

Gyarados is a monster Dragon Dancer who cares not for Quagsire, who can carry taunt, and who just completely ruins teams. Luckily, Sylveon can hurt this madman by checking it asap. This is another check that will not win unless Gyara has some prior damage, but this is still a good supporter to taking it. Afterwards RH Skarm is going to win, as will Ferrothorn, Chesnaught (W/just Spiky Shield, so low health savior), Porygon2 and a number other pokemon... Mew comes to mind. Essentially, breaking it will lead to downfall.

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sylveon: 253-298 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 218-260 (65.6 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even if Gyara wants to DDance in Normal form:

4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 138-163 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This generally causes people to M-evolve earlier, but they still need +2 to OHKO syleon so better hope they don't have prior passive damage.


Vs Mega-Heracross

One of the most threatening pokemon... This thing SDs it may be game over even vs Sylveon. However, another common set is the sub attacker. As you know, Sylveon murders these. Really, handling Heracross is situational. If you're going to draw an attack, checking it is the best option. However, if you know it will sub, coming in right away on Sylveon will help. A slow volt turner can assist this. Sacrifice fodder may be needed. But as long as you don't let it get to +2, you can leave the opponent to a broken/dead pokemon, depending on prior damage.

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sylveon: 205-245 (52 - 62.1%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sylveon: 161-190 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Heracross: 264-312 (72.5 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


After a sub, it's obviously very lucky to live. With rock damage, same story. Pin missile surprisingly does the same amount as rock blast, close combat does a bit less.

Vs Others:

So Sylveon is hurting to get by these pokemon, but what can you expect? It can normally clean kill Kyub and the lack of M-Heracross can help a bit, just to give you an offensive weapon. But, there are still a few more common stall breakers that sometimes infuriate players...

Sableye obviously isn't living. I won't even bore you, it's dead as hell against Sylveon. Prankster taunt is a problem for so many teams, too.

Mandibuzz can cry herself to sleep as she's easily 2hko'd. Good by knock off/foul play spam and that fucking awful roost.

Deoxys-S CAN be a stall breaker. Generally just a hazard setter, but heh.
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 150-177 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

Now you don't have to worry about the 50 layers of spikes from that thing... Can't solve Deo-D though.
Mega Medicham is rather destructive... It does hit Sylveon for SE on Bullet Punch, but it isn't winning if you check it. (No setup from this wall breaker either). Someone was even talking about sub+3 attack Medi in the Viability thread. Funny... That doesn't help here.
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 314-372 (120.3 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sylveon: 196-232 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Metagame Relevance

Sylveon isn't OU for no reason. But in our metagame, can we rely on Sylveon to do the medic work? Well, yes. Elven pokemon in OU (not counting Sylveon) provide an easy pokemon to cleric on at any time. These aren't all factored for damage calcs, but from experience none of these pokemon should 2hko. These also don't include pokemon like Keldeo and choice locked pokemon that can provide a good option by situation.

Togekiss, Conkeldurr, Greninja, Dragonite, Heatran, Goodra, Latios, Latias, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Zapdos


Checks and Counters:

While not much is going to come in comfortably and destroy Sylveon, these are the pokemon that come in and KILL Sylveon. For that reason, I will not include Heatran/Klefki/Skarmory, even if he hard walls.

Counters:
Aegislash, Charizard-Y, Excadrill, Mawile-Mega, Venusaur-mega, Talonflame, Magnezone, Scizor(-mega)


Checks:
Bisharp, Gengar, Landorus-i, Banded Starraptor


I hope this did it some justice. Anything checking was coming in and destroying Sylveon, I don't have the time to check everything that could come in and win so consider this a short list. But three noticeable pokemon showed up that stall doesn't exactly enjoy weaknesses to. Aegislash, Charizard-Y and Landorus-i, all can beat Sylveon? Not exactly a happy prospect. Well, at least for Aegislash you don't need to fret too much as it does need flash cannon to really hurt, but just as important is that it can stall out your heal bells. The standard shadow ball?

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Sylveon: 117-138 (29.6 - 35%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

I've seen worse.

Good Teammates

This is just a short list of teammates that work incredibly well with Sylveon for passing synergy and weakness fun. All stall pokes and all are pretty easy to pass wishes to.

Slowbro: Resists Steel, can kill most offenders with a coverage move. Sylveon can take special hits for non-AV ones, and appreciates Twave from Non-AV. (AV is just as good as it take flash cannon and makes less pressure to go back into Sylveon on stuff like Rotom-Wash). Bisharp will rip this core if he gets in clean.

Chesnaught: Takes Steel, Sludge Bomb. Also perfect for Aegislash, just run EQ now. Physical/special synergy is nice, and Chesnaught can do quite a few unique things like support in taking down Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados and Banded Kyub. Landorus-I with sludge wave will wreck this, but it is otherwise very solid.

Heatran: Sylveon lets in Zard-Y/Talonflame, is weak to steel and poison. Heatran takes all of that. Heatran is weak to fight, hates water and is very scared of Earthquake. While Sylveon gives no guarantee on EQ, it'll handle the other parts. Heatran will take Mawiles lacking Focus punch and Sylveon can take Kyurem. Probably one of the best Sylveon cores.

Latias: Not seen much on stall any more, but Latias can solve Poison types and Sylveon can tank Ice, dark and Dragon attacks. Latias doesn't do much to steels but can run surf for neutral coverage/beat heatran. Bisharp again can beat this if he gets free on Lati although a colbur berry HP fight lati seems to be semi-popular to lure that thing. Try it?

Other options:

I've experimented a little bit with Sylveon. If you don't need it for wall breaking and just would rather it take special threats like Thundurus-I, sub three attack Kyurem, Keldeo and in general take special better, that will work fine. Max + nature defense can work, but the EV optimization is real with this set. Gives you a switch over rocks vs LO Iron head kyurem-b, but special side gives 4 extra EV gain than physical side gained.

Other movesets on stall... If you have a heal bell/wish user, I suggest Shadow Ball to hit Aegislash and Gengar on a switch. Psyshock can be used, but it has no coverage for steels and poisons are carrying poison stabs. Other than that, it's an eeveeloution, not a ton of move pool to use. Yawn is a bit too gimmick to use, trust me... It never quite worked out as I wanted.

Synopsis:

Sylveon is an excellent, excellent cleric that absolutely should be considered. However, I suggest you choose between Sylveon and another cleric early in team building due to the unique threats Sylveon lets by. The risks outweigh the rewards, though, Sylveon can take "stall breakers", laugh at subs and is one of the strongest attackers stall commonly uses. There are good cores out there, many I didn't discuss. So get building. Seriously. Sylveon needs to be used more, preferably with Porygon2. Also adding a few replays.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-95298930
Early game little cleric, but late game slays off M-Gyarados on a bad play, Latias and Chesnaught...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-101538550
Oh swagplay.... Sylveon just took your whole team.
 
Last edited:

TheEnder

a petal in the wind
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-101538550
Oh swagplay.... Sylveon just took your whole team.


Anyways, on a more serious note, I think Sylveon really deserves a big mention as a cleric/wallbreaker on stall teams and or balanced teams. It is a really cool new toy to play with (for BP as well though, I miss spamming Outrage ;_;), and I agree on many of you're points, it does a great job at checking many threats in this meta.
 
Last edited:
Other than kyurem, a pokemon that does well against stall teams ATM (and it is completely unexpected) is honchkrow. I ran into one and it destroyed me It gets Brave Bird for Venusaur, Superpower for heatran and chansey, night slash/sucker punch for slowbro... the moxie ability helps too (and it gets pursuit to pick up weakened stuff and get a moxie boost). If skarmory is weakened, Honchkrow can sweep plenty of stall teams alone.
 
Last edited:
Ajwf I've watched the replays and looked at your team, right now ours are pretty similar and if I had to guess, I think both of us are having trouble with the same types of teams. Charizard-Y, mixed Thundurus-I, LO Landorus-I, MegaMawile, SpecsKeldeo, Belly Azumarril, MegaPinsir, and possibly baton pass.

Char can usually fire off a fire blast for free on turn 1, which is why I have a pokemon faster than him on my team. Otherwise he can just FB for free which basically does like over 50% to everything in the tier bar chansey and heatran. (and the lesser used latias, gyarados, tentacruel, etc)

Next is Thundurus-I. If Kyurem is the pokemon you secretly still want banned, then this guy is mine! Charizard is forcing the use of water types and dragons, so a simple boltbeam thundurus takes care of things extremely well, and the other two moves could be knock off, fly, taunt, thunder wave, superpower, nasty plot, sub, or grass knot. I've figured out charizard but not this one...

Landorus-I can be pretty decently handled by things like skarm, gyarados, and latias, which is why he's usually paired up with something like pinsir or talonflame or staraptor. They break through each others walls.

Mawile can be handled if you come in cleanly, but he's almost always paired with a volt turn core that lets him set up on stall. Dear god this guy is strong, and there truly aren't many good answers. I tried out Iron Defense Mandibuzz and it was actually really cool. It seriously wins the fight as a check, but not as a counter. It also wins against Bisharp, so, it can defog any time it wants.

SpecsKeldeo is just an amazing pokemon, but LO and Expert Belt are out there too. I've been hit by HP Electric and Icy Wind a few times when I was just trying to bring in a water or fighting resist. His specs hydro pumps can just wreck things, even grass types, and now that you've brought your grass type in for the resist it's a free switch in for, say, talonflame. (this happens far to often to me)

Azumarril is a killer pokemon as well. He, keldeo, and Charizard can all work together on the same team and wear down the water/grass/fire/fairy resists one by one until one of them sweeps. This is another reason why I'm using that speedy pokemon that can kill Charizard, because it can also kill Keldeo.

Megapinsir is well known, and there's hardly any stall answers to him except skarmory. I'm shamefully using my own skarm now, this time with shed shell, because I had an absolutely terrible battle against magnezone+pinsir team. I'm trying to see if I could work Zapdos into the team somehow, perhaps alongside skarm. I just don't think Zap has enough key RESISTANCES to earn a spot, but then again the offensive ability of Zapdos is extremely nice to have on stall. I swing back and forth on the zapdos idea.

At the moment I'm using a bulky-ish MegaAerodactyl on my stall team. With the right set it COUNTERS char-y, COUNTERS pinsir, COUNTERS talonflame, Counters non sleep-powder venusaur, checks keldeo, checks thundurus, has roost, possibly stealth rock, and you can check or counter more things if you add a coverage move instead of rocks. And it doesn't care about knock off. This might be my "wild card" pokemon as you say, the oddball pokemon. I posted it in the Underrated Sets thread. It's obviously not terribly bulky but since I poured so many EVs into HP and defense, it does that specific niche job very well. Straight countering Charizard-Y and Pinsir with a single pokemon is a great claim in itself, and I use it because I don't like Tyranitar lol.



Now why did I mention Baton Pass? Well, as we all know, Espeon blocks whirlwind and Sylveon can't be touched by dragon tail. Scolipde and Sylveon and Espeon can provide substitutes that Circle Throw can't break. Sub also blocks clear smog, and Unaware pokemon are still destroyed by Espeon's stored power. Mr. Mime blocks perish song. Therefore there are only 2 options for stall, and one of them MUST be on every stall team. Stall just won't be able to break any of those substitutes once it gets rolling.

Option 1: Haze

Option 2: Mold Breaker Whirlwind / Roar (must be performed before Smeargle uses Ingrain)

Haze is most famously used by Quagsire, but there are certainly other viable possibilities. Weezing counters Mawile, spreads burns, and hazing is a part time job. Crobat should be familiar to everyone, and while his stat's don't seem up to par, having such high speed can actually pay dividends at times, especially for the odd greninja or rogue thundurus. Vaporeon is another user, but finding room for it on the set is pretty difficult. Eviolite Murkrow has priority Haze, along with plenty of other support moves. Cofagrious can haze and spread burns much like Weezing, and counters mawile also, but does it with different typing and a fairly situational ability. Zygarde is a noteworthy user, with 108/121/95 bulk, but seemingly isn't doing much otherwise. Haze somewhat prevents him from using Coil. Tentacruel is questionably viable, and while he definitely has his switch in opportunities, he tends to die quickly in my experience. Blastoise is an interesting choice, he has rapid spin just like Tentacruel, so both of these pokemon have their uses but Rapid Spin + Haze means there's only two slots for other moves, so they'd better choose carefully. Or they can forgo the spinning and let a teammate defog. Dragonite and Gengar make very interesting choices, with plenty of switch in opporunities, and dragonite has a bulky haze while gengar has a fast one. And Xatu can provide plenty of utility while also hazing at certain times. Other users include Chandelure, Greninja, Qwilfish, Milotic, Altaria, Drifblim, Politoed, Poliwrath, and Auroros.

Is quagsire truly the most viable hazer? Well his ability certainly helps him perform his job well. But it is also true that quagsire has really bad stats. Great typing, movepool, and ability, but his stats can get him 2hko'd by plenty of simple choice band or life orb moves out there.

Mold Breaker is a very exclusive ability and there are even fewer users who have roar or whirlwind. I don't think we could seriously consider pokemon like Haxorus or Drudggion on a stall team, but MegaGyarados is certainly a standout. However, using roar over dragon tail will bring Taunt issues into play in the occasional battle, though not extremely problematic for a pokemon with such high base stats. Gyarados will also miss his leftovers and intimidate.

Of the pokemon listed above, which could provide multiple benefits on a stall team equal as good as Quagsire? Possibly only Vaporeon, Gyarados, Milotic, Cofagrius, Tentacruel, Blastoise, Dragonite, and Gengar. I will try out some lesser used Hazers and see how the team performs.
 
Mantine for the haze, too. Haze is rather situational to "What can I fit on this team without ruining my synergy?).

Blastoise, Blastoise-Mega, Chandelure, Cofagrigus, Crobat, Cryogonal, Dragalge, Dragonite, Drifblim, Dusclops, Dusknoir, Mantine, Milotic, Murkrow, Politoed, Quagsire, Qwilfish, Skuntank, Tentacruel, Vaporeon, Weezing, Xatu, Zygarde

That's basically the list I can find any justification to have on a stall team. Dragalge is probably the most intriguing once it gets adaptability. As with most things, though, I don't get the GF logic behind what gets haze and what doesn't. For now, if you want a literal stop to BP, I think your best option is Skuntank, who can also defog and Pursuit trap. Poison typing reduces fairy damage, dark immune to stored power. Go Pursuit/Poison Jab/Defog/Haze....

As for the issues you're having compared to me... Mixed Thundy? Haven't seen it. Seen physical, though, and it's hit/miss. Depend if you get the set down quickly. Lando, a bit. Depends on the specific set, as I can take non-Sludge Wave sets pretty easily, and gyarados solves this guy if gyara has no other target. Mega Mawile, definitely. Working on it, too... Skarmory counter is the best short term fix. Keldeo? No... Chesnaught/Sylveon/Gyarados all have varying levels of "Solved" for Keldeo. Belly Drum azumarill can't touch me as long as Quagsire is alive. Mega Pinsir is actually checked twice on top of skarm countering... Quagsire can check and fish for burn, and P2 can survive a +2 Return and kill it after rocks/fish for para.

If you're looking into Zapdos, try a sub set. It simply works better for whatever reason, saves you on toxic, too. You do end up going mono-discharge which can be a bummer. Rotom-W/H also work for mega Pinsir, but they're a bit weak. Luckily, they both have pain split for instant gratification vs high HP opponents.

On Aerodactyl, his defenses are very similar to the Tornadus-t I ran, with a somewhat more beneficial typing (Although I do get regenerator and an item). I imagine you're speed creeping 108 (the Musketeers) and investing the rest into physical bulk? It doesn't seem to be a bad option, but definitely not a signature wall. I'd be interested in some replays of how that works.
 
Last edited:
got my best ladder streak up to date using a stall team. Bulky gyrados is underestimated alot (or at least I underestimated it) I love gyrados, its a badass dragon that fits so many roles. The annoying thing about defog is that it gets rid of hazards on both sides. Is there any spinner with a phasing move and actual bulk. Though I doubt I'd replace mandibuzz even if there was
 
Blastoise-mega/Blastoise can run Dragon tail and Roar, I believe. Rest is the best way to insinuate recovery, though. Really good coverage. The non-mega can hit like a piece of paper occasionally, but the mega has some excellent upside. Sounds like you have MegaDos already, though. Avalugg shows up, as does Donphan... Not sure if either of them are appealing, but both have some salvageable physical bulk.
 
Blastoise-mega/Blastoise can run Dragon tail and Roar, I believe. Rest is the best way to insinuate recovery, though. Really good coverage. The non-mega can hit like a piece of paper occasionally, but the mega has some excellent upside. Sounds like you have MegaDos already, though. Avalugg shows up, as does Donphan... Not sure if either of them are appealing, but both have some salvageable physical bulk.
I'll test out mega blastoise as in just using regular gyrados. I'm not sure I like the idea of two rest users on one team though, even with aromatherapy. Didn't even know avalugg got rapid spin. The thing about mandibuzz is it has nearly as good defense as avalugg and donphan, but it has a usable sp. Def and a form if recovery aswell, I dunno. Blissey>sylveon? Maybe its just because I loved her in Gen 5 but blissey is always over sylveon in my mind. Might do an rmt about my tomorrow and get some more ideas.
 
About BP teams, ditto can also work against BP teams pretty well too. Since every pokemon will be running BP, ditto can send it off to one of your own mons, allowing you to accumulate all the boosts they have.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top