Regenerator isn't a generic "let's make this pokemon better" ability. This CAP is meant to be used as a third member of a core, right? Since Lucario is strictly a lategame sweeper, and Latias is an offensive/support hybrid, it's reasonable to think this pokemon is going to act as a pivot. What do pivots do? They switch in and out a lot. What don't pivots like? Reisdual damage, especially if it's weak to SR and vulnerable to Spikes.What does sheer force do for us that higher special attack later in the process can not? I would argue that it is, much like regenerator, a general "lets make this mon better" rather than helping us against our specific threats. It would be one thing if there weren't sheer force moves for both of our stabs and basically any coverage move we want, but unfortunately there are, so it is effectively just a straight up satk boost (and lo immunity).
I think, as an offensive ability, Serene Grace is definitely one that has high utility towards scaring Aegislash. The threat of a burn from potentially both forms of CAP18's STABs is certainly going to make any Aegislash think twice before coming in, so I really don't see how it "doesn't stop Aegislash from coming in." The main problem here, is once Aegislash himself is in, we don't want to to have CAP18 get smacked in the face with a powerful ghost move while trying to switch in ourselves. Having Aegislash "throwing Shadow Balls around and fleeing at the last moment" is much less likely to happen when against a serene grace CAP18. Let's just hypothetically say CAP18 comes in, takes a shadow ball and survives. If it has serene grace, its opponent seriously has to think twice before switching out. If it switches to a non-fire, there's a 60% chance of it getting burned. If it switches to a fire, well, then that fire type will likely be faced with super effective damage from scald (yes, we haven't decided on moves yet, but scald is fairly safely assumed since you're hard pressed to find a competitive water type without it). This in turn makes it a fairly difficult choice that the Aegislash user has to make if he wants to switch out. In a lot of cases, this will then be far from a free switch that will allow "fleeing at the last moment" for Aegislash. It's already a given that Aegislash doesn't want to switch into CAP18 due to the typing and risk of taking a super effective hit, but with serene grace it gives the opponent some doubt when thinking about switching out. If Aegislash is less likely to switch out, then there's also a better chance for CAP18 to gain some offensive pressure against this noteworthy foe.someone said:Finally, while I can see the attractive of Serene Grace Scald / Lava Plume, it just seems to me a powerful option that...is not really linked to what we're trying to accomplish; indeed, we will be probably able to cripple things once we're in, but that doesn't stop Aegislash from coming in, throwing Shadow Balls around and fleeing at the last moment, or Earthquake-spamming mons from ripping us apart if they can hit Latias somehow. That looks something that any team could use quite well (think Entei), which isn't really our goal.
Serene Grace + assault vest could at least (sort of) help CAP18 switch into either physical or special Aegislash, assuming it has enough physical bulk for the former. We have a lot of unknown variables here, though, so relying on physical bulk that we may or may not get in later stages of discussion is always a risk.MudcrabDL said:You know, thinking about it, I'm starting to like the idea of Serene Grace a fair bit. Both are very good for allowing the application of special effects/conditions while still maintaining offensive pressure, which is essentially what we're planning on doing if I've read the zeitgeist right. Indeed, CAP18 could, with these buffs, run pure attacking sets with Assault Vest, which would help shore up the Shadow Ball issue.
Being a good core member and a good pokemon in general aren't mutually exclusive things, quite the opposite in fact.The only issue I have with some of these abilities is that they are just good abilities in general other than ones that contribute especially to this core, mainly Serene Grace and Regenerator. Maybe these could be a secondary ability but as a primary I am not sure how directly relevant they are to this core. Simplified, they are good abilities but I don't know how this will makes it a good core member and not just a good pokemon in general.
So in the OP of every thread posted since the concept was chosen has appeared the original "Questions to be answered" part of the concept submission. This will continue to appear in the OP of every thread on this project because it's very important. Look at the bolded part:And if Sheer Force makes this mon able to fit into this core the best it can, then does it really matter if it sees usage outside the core? After all, Lucario and Latias are already used oust side of cores, why shouldn't CAP be too?
So the answer is yes, whether or not this pokemon is good outside of the core does matter because the difference between "good in general" and "good because of synergy" is one of the concepts we are exploring with this project.Questions to Be Answered:
- How do effective cores in the current metagame differ fundamentally from the cores of previous metagames, if at all?
- Is synergy as important (relative to power) in the current metagame as it previously has been? (That is, has power creep rendered synergy unnecessary?)
- What differences are there between tailoring a Pokemon to two others and tailoring it to one? What else must be considered besides weaknesses and resistances?
- How does the addition of a Pokemon to a core change what other Pokemon can be effectively run alongside the core?
- Does Team Preview make running cores more difficult?
- Is it possible to create a core uncounterable by a single Pokemon? (For example, Celebi/Heatran/Jellicent was a very effective BW core that got slaughtered by Tyranitar. Can a core force opponents to counter it with another core?)
- Tagging onto the above, what is required to "counter-core" a core? What combination of offensive and defensive characteristics among "counter-core" members achieves this?
Its too specific, not because it is just focused on Aegislash. It is too specific because it is focused on just one set on Aegislash, when that one set is no more or less threatening to our core than any other set it can run. If for some reason its other sets failed to beat our core that would be one thing, but they don't. Simply forcing it to run different moves to beat us is not a victory for our core at all.I want to address the claims that Bulletproof will make CAP 18 too good outside of our core. That's just not a good argument. While we don't want to encourage its use in other places, it is nearly unheard of (outside the likes of weather teams) to see a Pokémon that can be legitimately called good that is completely worthless except when used alongside not one but two specific other Pokémon. CAP 18 will be viable outside the core, or it will be bad, core or no core. Certainly, any choice made anywhere in the CAP that doesn't help the core is bad choice, but Bulletproof clearly does help the core. The argument that Bulletproof is "too specific" is also absurd. Our threatlist requires us to be able to take strong STAB Shadow Balls but lose to strong STAB Water attacks. Given that we're neutral to both, Bulletproof is literally the only way to do that. Furthermore, when Shadow Ball is set aside, our threatlist translates quite nicely to stats while taking it into account we're going to have nothing but bad-or-worse choices to make at that stage. Yes, Bulletproof is seemingly fairly niche, but taking into account the threatlist it does pretty much everything we'd want.
two things i want to say in response to this post. First in reply to the bolded section, a core is inherently the best if it puts as little strain on the rest of the team as possible. As such beating special aegislash and only making the rest of the team beat physical aegislash inherently makes it a better core. Secondly, i would argue that due to the fact almost nothing currently beats mixed aegislash defensively with any reliability, and we offer it two very easy switchins with latias and lucario, any team utilizing our core will have to switch into it frequently, and with currently existing pokemon almost no teams can viably switch into mixed aegislash frequently. This is why bulletproof is needed, it lowers the stress running this core puts on the remainder of the team.So, while there definitely are a few options here that I like, I'd like to instead start off talking about one that I think would be a very bad choice for this project: Bulletproof.
We have our list of threats, and one of the things on it is Aegislash. However, it is important to remember that this list is of things we want to threaten either offensively or defensively. People arguing for Bulletproof clearly want to look at this from a defensive perspective, but in reality, it fails to even successfully do that much at all. The fact is Bulletproof is ridiculously specific. It is using an entire ability to beat one single set on one single Pokemon, and honestly, it only does a mediocre job at that. We don't resist Aegislash's coverage moves meaning immunity to shadow ball is far from meaning it is a safe switch in. And, beyond that set, Aegislash has 2 offensive stats of base 150. Being immune to one attack on one side doesn't mean much when it can just run an attack on the other side that does almost as well. Simply put, Bulletproof is super Aegislash specific, but doesn't even stop Aegislash.
Now, I have heard people on IRC talk about how getting Aegislash to run Shadow Claw > Shadow Ball is a victory in and of itself, but I don't see it that way. Maybe it is a victory, but for who? Our core? Certainly not. Shadow Claw hurts Latias MORE than Shadow Ball, and Luke is screwed against it either way. The only way it is helping is that it might allow a 4th Pokemon to do better against it, but how does that help the core? It doesn't. At least not more than every single other OU team.
Now, as for abilities that I do like, Regenerator is probably my favorite. If you want something that actually lets us better deal with Aegislash, this is it. We have SE STAB on it. We are likely going to be able to hit it hard. However, we can't switch in as easily. Since trapping is pretty much out of the question at this point, if we want to beat it, we want something that can switch into it multiple times and KO it or force it out multiple times. While other methods of recovery are plausible, with a hazard weakness, none will help us fill this role, as well as a pivot role in the core as a whole, better than Regenerator.
We already have Latias in the core for that. I honestly don't understand the point of giving CAP18 Levitate, Latias already has it and if CAP18 fears hazards we can just give it Regenerator, which also nullifies Stealth Rock. But Serene Grace definitely seems interesting, if CAP18 gets Lava Plume that 60% burn chance is very good, its even better if we give it Sacred Fire (Entei gets it now, so its no longer a legendary exclusive), where its a 100% chance of burn, but that might be a bit to broken.I agree with Impy, Levitate gives us a very helpful boost to deal with Ground-type STAB. It's fairly necessary to have some kind of answer to Earthquake. Can we also talk about Serene Grace some more? This thing's STAB types both have plenty of moves with added effects, especially burn (Scald and many Fire-type attacks) and the ability would be an excellent way to counteract common threats.
The argument is that we can afford to invest more in physical bulk if we have an ability that takes care of Aegislash's special side. This is INCREDIBLY useful to this mon, because, well, look at the rest of the threats we should respond to:Its too specific, not because it is just focused on Aegislash. It is too specific because it is focused on just one set on Aegislash, when that one set is no more or less threatening to our core than any other set it can run. If for some reason its other sets failed to beat our core that would be one thing, but they don't. Simply forcing it to run different moves to beat us is not a victory for our core at all.
Levitate stops Garchomp's Earthquake. Latias's dragon typing and passable physical bulk don't stop its Outrage. Lucario is 2hko'd and CAP is pending.We already have Latias in the core for that. I honestly don't understand the point of giving CAP18 Levitate, Latias already has it and if CAP18 fears hazards we can just give it Regenerator, which also nullifies Stealth Rock. But Serene Grace definitely seems interesting, if CAP18 gets Lava Plume that 60% burn chance is very good, its even better if we give it Sacred Fire (Entei gets it now, so its no longer a legendary exclusive), where its a 100% chance of burn, but that might be a bit to broken.
Bulletproof covers two moves, and you're suggesting that it's better than Levitate defensively? I don't understand.Obviously this is looking at it defensively (which is how I prefer to look at it); if you want offense, there are other fun abilities to think about. But Bulletproof most definitely is the best defensive option.
Yeah, I dont understand the hype over Bulletproof. It's only purpose is to counter Aegislash and Gengar, and both of their movepools can find a way around bulletproofBulletproof covers two moves, and you're suggesting that it's better than Levitate defensively? I don't understand.
Unless Garchomp is scarfed, (In that case it will force them to switch if you bring Latias in on an Earthquake) a Timid Latias can outspeed a Jolly Garchomp and OHKO it with Draco MeteorLevitate stops Garchomp's Earthquake. Latias's dragon typing and passable physical bulk don't stop its Outrage. Lucario is 2hko'd and CAP is pending.
I know this belongs back in the threat discussion, but this is something that needs to be considered. Garchomp didn't just magically go away.
I know that, but it was explicitly stated that the Latias in our core is the defensive defogger. And that will die. Good point about forcing it out, but it's still a massive threat. A core is useless if one pokemon tramples it, especially one enjoying a fair bit of usage.Yeah, I dont understand the hype over Bulletproof. It's only purpose is to counter Aegislash and Gengar, and both of their movepools can find a way around bulletproof
Unless Garchomp is scarfed, (In that case it will force them to switch if you bring Latias in on an Earthquake) a Timid Latias can outspeed a Jolly Garchomp and OHKO it with Draco Meteor