Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]

[SuperWumbology]

Welp, I'm going all in, bias style. Nominating Rayquaza for B+. Ya, I said it. I feel that Rayquaza is not unviable or "just another threat", and I still think it is very usable and threatening in the right hands. Yes, Fairy-types and the perma-weather nerf did hurt Rayquaza's biggest niches, but it can still hold its own with its sheer power. It is very difficult to wall if you do not scout out the set it runs, and Scarf users have declined to a select few, making Rayquaza's sweeping or wallbreaking endeavors easier. SD sets can practically smash any physical wall out there that is not resistant to Fire with V-create, Mixed sets can lure out bulky Ground-types and bulky support Arceus formes and smack them with a Draco Meteor, and Dragon Dance is very difficult to stop late-game if its checks are removed (I know that could be said for any sweeper, but this is important to Rayquaza in particular). It is usually very unpredictable at times, and access to Extremespeed is very useful for Rayquaza in revenge killing in the fact that anything that is not immediately OHKOd by a boosted V-create will be KOd the next turn by it, and it can avoid being revenge killed by opposing priority moves provided said priority user is weakened.

However, as biased as I am about Rayquaza, its flaws show more now this generation. Fairy-types prevent Rayquaza from spamming Outrage, and though this isn't too important in particular since Rayquaza has V-create, but pretty much all of them can OHKO Ray with SE attacks (that's pretty sad) due to Rayquaza's frailty and baaaaad defensive typing. Also, Rayquaza can no longer troll the living hell out of weather teams with Air Lock, but Air Lock isn't completely useless, as Rayquaza can still do sweet things like revenge kill Swift Swim and Sand Rush users, annihilate Steel-types in Rain with a Fire-type attack, and can survive a Choice Specs Water Spout from Kyogre:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rayquaza: 243-287 (69.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Its still severely damaged but w/e)
Still, I really do think Rayquaza should get more attention than it does now because Ekiller is the stupidest fucking thing ever and it should burn in hell, and despite the setbacks Rayquaza has had to endure this gen, B+ seems like an appropriate rank to put Ray in.

 

[jackm]

Read page 17,18,19

Sorry 'bout that, nvm

 

[Disaster Area]

Keys should not run swagger >.<
Also the idea is generally sub geo subs when you switch the keys in, then geos, when you are forced to use play rough if you can, otherwise you need to switch again to a secondary check, or whatever, point is you need play rough to get past in that not desperately uncommon situation. Foul Play doesn't even check if it takes u 3 hits to break sub with FP and it can 2HKO you with HP Fire (tho idk about thunder - input from someone?)..

 

[Minority]

Keys should not run swagger >.<
Also the idea is generally sub geo subs when you switch the keys in, then geos, when you are forced to use play rough if you can, otherwise you need to switch again to a secondary check, or whatever, point is you need play rough to get past in that not desperately uncommon situation. Foul Play doesn't even check if it takes u 3 hits to break sub with FP and it can 2HKO you with HP Fire (tho idk about thunder - input from someone?)..

This is true, but only if Xern is in before you. Thunder has the same power on keys as HP Fire but misses 70% of the time (feels more like 50%). If you want to reliably check shit, keys should not have Swagg, but any set that lacks Toxic will have Swagg since those are the two sets that are commonly run on it. Also if Sub Geo is in before hand and Subs the turn keys comes in, even with Play Rough it isn't a very good check (you break the sub and get 2HKOed by HP Fire leaving a single turn to get a Toxic / Thunder Wave in). I mean not all Sub Geo Xern can afford to run HP Fire though and getting the 2HKO with Thunder is about as hard as it is for Keys to win with Swagg-play (I am not endorsing Swagg-play, merely I am comparing the unreliability of Xern that lacks HP Fire to beat Keys).

 

[Haruno]

So does twave not exist?

/fail

 

[GlassVeins]

Welp, I'm going all in, bias style. Nominating Rayquaza for B+. Ya, I said it. I feel that Rayquaza is not unviable or "just another threat", and I still think it is very usable and threatening in the right hands. Yes, Fairy-types and the perma-weather nerf did hurt Rayquaza's biggest niches, but it can still hold its own with its sheer power. It is very difficult to wall if you do not scout out the set it runs, and Scarf users have declined to a select few, making Rayquaza's sweeping or wallbreaking endeavors easier. SD sets can practically smash any physical wall out there that is not resistant to Fire with V-create, Mixed sets can lure out bulky Ground-types and bulky support Arceus formes and smack them with a Draco Meteor, and Dragon Dance is very difficult to stop late-game if its checks are removed (I know that could be said for any sweeper, but this is important to Rayquaza in particular). It is usually very unpredictable at times, and access to Extremespeed is very useful for Rayquaza in revenge killing in the fact that anything that is not immediately OHKOd by a boosted V-create will be KOd the next turn by it, and it can avoid being revenge killed by opposing priority moves provided said priority user is weakened.

However, as biased as I am about Rayquaza, its flaws show more now this generation. Fairy-types prevent Rayquaza from spamming Outrage, and though this isn't too important in particular since Rayquaza has V-create, but pretty much all of them can OHKO Ray with SE attacks (that's pretty sad) due to Rayquaza's frailty and baaaaad defensive typing. Also, Rayquaza can no longer troll the living hell out of weather teams with Air Lock, but Air Lock isn't completely useless, as Rayquaza can still do sweet things like revenge kill Swift Swim and Sand Rush users, annihilate Steel-types in Rain with a Fire-type attack, and can survive a Choice Specs Water Spout from Kyogre:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rayquaza: 243-287 (69.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Its still severely damaged but w/e)
Still, I really do think Rayquaza should get more attention than it does now because Ekiller is the stupidest fucking thing ever and it should burn in hell, and despite the setbacks Rayquaza has had to endure this gen, B+ seems like an appropriate rank to put Ray in.

I'm kinda new, but i agree with you. He is easy to wall, but he sure does a ton of damage if you ignore him, or let him set up.

 

[jackm]

Then don't ignore it or let it set up.

 

[SuperWumbology]

I'm kinda new, but i agree with you. He is easy to wall, but he sure does a ton of damage if you ignore him, or let him set up.

I wouldn't necessarily say "easy to wall". It is a bit easier to defeat when pitted against faster opponents, but this thing can do some crazy stuff even if unboosted (this is the Swords Dance set btw):

252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 177-209 (43.8 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 265-315 (52.5 - 62.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The only things that can really stand against Ray unboosted are Heatran, Lugia, Water Arceus and Rock Arceus. Of course, the latter 3 are somewhat common walls, but there are many factors that go against these walls when facing it. First off, none of these can switch into a +2 Rayquaza's Dragon Claw, and Lugia gets 2HKOd if Stealth Rock is up, breaking Multiscale. One may say "Water Arceus and Rock Arceus can switch in on a +2 Dragon Claw and burn it afterwards", but then there's Extremespeed. These two Arceus formes get OHKOd by the combination of Dragon Claw + Extremespeed, boosted of course. Frankly, there are only 2 real factors in order to make Rayquaza extremely formidable: Stealth Rock on the opponent's field, and an opportunity to set up. The latter isn't too hard if the opponent is not aware of Rayquaza's set, and a simple Toxic user can keep Defoggers away. Provided this and the fact that Rayquaza isn't really one-dimensional in any case, Rayquaza can perform different offensive roles on a team, the 3 most common being a extreme wallbreaker, another being a lure for physical walls that Rayquaza cannot get past if unboosted (Draco Meteor really hurts), and of course a sweeper with Dragon Dance. But before we continue, let's look at the B rank definition:

Reserved for Pokemon with large offensive or defensive capability. They are designed to serve specific roles for a team and may offer valuable utility. They often need certain amounts of support and/or suffer to a degree from opportunity cost.

Rayquaza is imo the best example of a Pokemon with a lot of offensive utility and prowess with the reasons I already explained. Of course, Rayquaza does need some support to function (but not too much imo), and does have some opportunity cost (Fairy-types suck but get nuked by V-create), and though Rayquaza definitely is not as threatening as it was last gen, it definitely is a formidable force on its own, all of which merits a B+ rank imo.

 

[Santuga]

I've been using Rayquaza on a team I've built to try out Tailwind Zekrom and it really doesn't perform bad at all, it actually wins me tons of games. I am using the mix set with Draco Meteor / V-Create / Extremespeed / Outrage (I find Dragon Claw a bit too weak without boosting moves) and it breaks lots of mons for other pokemon on my team to sweep. Draco Meteor competely annihilates Groudon who most times Stealth Rock turn one only to see their health go down to below 10%, and if you predict your opponent to set up and switch up your moves, it will severely dent the opponent to the point where it can be revenge killed by Extremespeed. I've had countless of Xerneas falling down to Rayquaza's V-Create + Extremespeed as they Geomancy predicting the switch. It has a good amount of laws as mentioned before, but it packs a tremendous amount of power which in my opinion should be more than enough to bring it up to B+ at least

 

[SuperWumbology]

IDK, I've been playing a lot with Ray and it's just not that great most of the time, mostly because of the heavy amount of burn users + priority + rocks + LO damage. Even if you get it set up usually it can't get that great of a sweep if you are playing someone that has a solid team and doesn't suck. Granted +2 Ray is incredibly powerful, that's not the issue, it's more like how slow and fragile it is. I've only been testing the SD set which I know is more for wall breaking than actual sweeping but it's just not that easy to get good damage off and it's even harder to get it in. This could be partially due to the support I'm running with it so maybe it's just that the team I created to test this mon sucks, or Ray's just not that incredible.

Here are two replays where I got some good use out of Ray against slightly competent players:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-107060882
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-107071674


The second involves someone using Mega Houndoom and I got a lucky par so take that into account. Canman98, do you have any good replays with Ray use because I rarely see good use with it. Again not saying Ray is bad because with 150 offenses + priority + incredible offensive move pool it's obviously not but it usually can't do much more than pull its own weight. Please prove me wrong because I'm a big Ray fan and I want to see some excellent dragon use in the tier outside of the gen 4 trio and Zekrom.

Unfortunately I don't have any GOOD replays atm. I haven't been laddering too much and since I suck (a lot), I am not in the section of the ladder with at least competent players (unless you consider 1300~1350 to be "good"). I would use my battle with Fireburn as an example of when and how to use DD Ray (but I set up on a missed Stone Edge on Lando so it didn't matter), as I did manage to take out 2 of his mons and severely damage EKiller to the point of no return, which actually turned the battle in my favor. Imo the best support SD Ray can get is still VoltTurn, which doesn't force you to lead with it.
Also I legitimately feel flattered that you named Ray after me :D

 

[Disaster Area]

I have a stall team with SD ray.. there's a chance I might end up using it in POWC tho but I'll try and get some good replays of it (I know it's kinda weird running it on stall but it fits as a wallbreaker/cleaner + ground immunity is always helpful)

 

[GlassVeins]

I have a stall team with SD ray.. there's a chance I might end up using it in POWC tho but I'll try and get some good replays of it (I know it's kinda weird running it on stall but it fits as a wallbreaker/cleaner + ground immunity is always helpful)

I'd like to see that strategy in use! Any replays?

 

[jackm]

Seconding that request, I'm intrigued.

 

[SuperWumbology]

Ya Piexplode. You brought this upon yourself by the court decision of the Rayquaza Fanboy Council.

 

[Disaster Area]

I'll try and get some replays then of me using it.. ladder is obviouly shitty but with me trying to ladder I'm like 1300 or so with that team... When I play someone decent enough with it for fun I'll show u, tho I tend to use my team really badly, and stupidly sakc or 2 mons per game vs decent players xD

 

[Durant]

Wouldn't it be better if the mega evolutions and the non mega evolutions were ranked separetly. I mean right now Kangaskhan and Charizard are the same rank as their mega forms while those pokemon are kinda suck in ubers.

 

[Disaster Area]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-107806734
One where I lsoe vs Chubby Penguins. It's not a great build at all and I play it really badly, and I lose lol. But there is a toxic miss which is just total hax imo.

 

[Minority]

Wouldn't it be better if the mega evolutions and the non mega evolutions were ranked separetly. I mean right now Kangaskhan and Charizard are the same rank as their mega forms while those pokemon are kinda suck in ubers.

lol, no one uses those non ME(ed) ever so its irrelevant, those sprites are next to the ME(s) because those are what you start with.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-107806734
One where I lsoe vs Chubby Penguins. It's not a great build at all and I play it really badly, and I lose lol. But there is a toxic miss which is just total hax imo.

So how does this demonstrate Ray's usefulness? Besides Toxic misses so much and don't even get me started with all the Air Slash misses I get. Seriously get me started, it's ruined Skymin for me.

 

[Durant]

lol, no one uses those non ME(ed) ever so its irrelevant, those sprites are next to the ME(s) because those are what you start with.


So how does this demonstrate Ray's usefulness? Besides Toxic misses so much and don't even get me started with all the Air Slash misses I get. Seriously get me started, it's ruined Skymin for me.

Then are Mewtwo and Blaziken just as good as their mega evolutions because i don't know ( new at ubers metagame ).

 

[Disaster Area]

Mewtwo yes Blaziken no.
No, the reason that they're there is essentially you don't know what you're playing against in team preview, you don't until you see them megavolve/their item. Whilst with kanga it's obviously mega kangaskhan, blaziken can run without its mega stone (though very rarely), and zard and mewtwo have 2 mega evolutions each, both of which don't nessecary play in the same way (and the difference in physical/special attacking too) so that's why they're classed under the same ranking.

 

[user php]

Well on the basis of determining what mega your opponent is using should be fairly obvious in most cases, the only case it might cause any problems is if you see both Mewtwo And Scizor on an opposing team. But even that can be probably guessed by looking at team playstyle.

 

[SuperWumbology]

Frankly it depends how the team is built, like PHP said. Usually, you can tell if a Pokemon is a Mega Evo or not depending on team comp. Mewtwo and MM2Y are kinda hard to tell apart imo since they're relatively similar, but MM2X is relatively easy to distinguish. For example, if your opponent has a Mewtwo but has a good answer to Scarfers or Fairy-types, it will most likely be a MM2X due to the different kind of support required for it to succeed. Scizor usually and pretty much always is its Mega Evo as it checks Xern (except stupid HP Fire bullcrap), and is significantly bulkier, letting it support its team better, so if there are 2 viable Pokemon that have Megas on the team, you can usually figure it out if you have a good eye for team building. However, Blaziken is actually pretty hard to tell if its a mega or not (unless they also have Kanga lel), bc LO is also viable. So basically, the hardest Mega's to tell apart imo are MM2Y and Blaziken, as both are still viable outside their Megas. Not like Mewtwo is easier to check with this or anything, but it does help you plan a possible strategy to defeat it as well.

 

[Haruno]

Frankly it depends how the team is built, like PHP said. Usually, you can tell if a Pokemon is a Mega Evo or not depending on team comp. Mewtwo and MM2Y are kinda hard to tell apart imo since they're relatively similar, but MM2X is relatively easy to distinguish. For example, if your opponent has a Mewtwo but has a good answer to Scarfers or Fairy-types, it will most likely be a MM2X due to the different kind of support required for it to succeed. Scizor usually and pretty much always is its Mega Evo as it checks Xern (except stupid HP Fire bullcrap), and is significantly bulkier, letting it support its team better, so if there are 2 viable Pokemon that have Megas on the team, you can usually figure it out if you have a good eye for team building. However, Blaziken is actually pretty hard to tell if its a mega or not (unless they also have Kanga lel), bc LO is also viable. So basically, the hardest Mega's to tell apart imo are MM2Y and Blaziken, as both are still viable outside their Megas. Not like Mewtwo is easier to check with this or anything, but it does help you plan a possible strategy to defeat it as well.

There is something very wrong with the opps you're facing if you have a harder time distinguishing a mega blaze from the proper mega mewtwo form. Js

Also yay for zero updates in week .-.

 

[Disaster Area]

How much of an effect is this thread supposed to have? Last time I heard everyone is using chansey near the top of the ladder, thanks to chubby penguins :(

 

[Edgar]

Chansey is ass, if anything use blissey