2013/2014 Soccer/Football Thread

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HBK

Subtlety is my middle name
Yeah, Chelsea's success before Abramovich made me jealous too. You guys supported Chelsea then right?
Sure mate, but I don't need to address that. Because Rey's not going to make angry, abusive posts about Chelsea NOT being successful, is he ? No, that's our job.

EDIT: And reyscarface, you're consoling the PSG fans ? Fucking PSG ? The club that spent so much more than Chelsea and even bought your precious Cavani. And you don't think of them as 'plastic' ? ROFL, fucking hypocrite.

Pastore should be feeling really good right now. That prick turned us down for PSG back in 2010. I mean who turns down a chance to play in England to play in France ? LMAO
 
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Imanalt

I'm the coolest girl you'll ever meet
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I also like the fact that QPR are spending more on wages than Borussia Dortmund.
god damn things like this plus the dortmund game today where they absolutely should have won if they had anywhere near the quality of players (or at least, player in the number 10) that real had, get me wondering just what Klopp could do if he actually had money to spend... Dortmund, for as much as theyve been one of the 5 best clubs in europe over the last 3 years, are really not a big club financially, and if he could even just keep palyers rather than selling off his stars every year, i have to imagine he could do something truly special, but who knows when/if we'll get to see that. Still in my mind the best manager in the world, doing so much with such limited resources.
 

HBK

Subtlety is my middle name
You might think that he's good because he's able to do well on a tight budget but he just might be another David Moyes if you know what I mean.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
Lol guys, just accept that clubs such as City, PSG and Chelsea are a cancer for the whole world of football. The day UEFA decides to actually enforce financial fair play, those clubs are going to be kicked out from every european competition. That day you'll probably realize why reyscarface is so damn right when he criticizes Chelsea. Before Abramovich bought the club, Chelsea had pretty much the same palmares as Napoli, so please cut the bullshit about your team's great "success". If it wasn't for Abramovich and his russian mafia Chelsea wouldn't be any better than clubs like Napoli.

Oh and, I couldn't care less about PSG being out of CL. I despise that club as much if not more than Chelsea. Fuck their petroil dollars. I hope these clubs disappear from the international scene asap.
 
Yes we all hate billionaire owners but what if you or me became billionaires in the not too distant future and we went back to our childhood clubs to help them out and help fund a new changing room, a new pitch, or, say, a few new players for them? Pretty innocent right? What if your club was Napoli and you made a donation so they can buy Messi and Ronaldo and whoever the flavour of the month is. I support FFP so that clubs won't go bust from borrowing money but I also support letting outside investment in, even from billionaire owners, because that's one big way small clubs can become big again or big clubs can be challenged. With FFP in place, the big clubs will always be big and it will be very hard for small clubs to do anything about it.

The thing I absolutely hate and cannot stand is the independent TV deals Real Madrid and Barcelona get. Like wtf!!! They're actively screwing over any chance of competition from the rest of the league by getting most of the money for La Liga and the authorities let them! How that was ever allowed I will never understand and I refuse to watch RM and Barca because of it, I hope La Liga shrivels up and dies because of it. But not before Atletico have won the league.
 
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haunter

Banned deucer.
Barcelona and Real have tons of debts, they would be punished as well if FFP was made operative. As for your argument about donations: it's invalid. The basic principle of FFP is that clubs shouldn't be spending more than what they're able to self-generate. Allowing private donations screws that principle completely. We're not talking about private investments here. The sheiks that pay funds into PSG/City don't expect any capital gain from those operations. It's a fucking joke that clubs with next to non-existant tradition, like PSG, all of a sudden get a 700 millions of euro sponsorship from Quatar and can totally fuck over the international market.

There's a reason why PSG is currently under inquiry from UEFA. Now it's all about deciding whether Platini actually wants to enforce the rules suggested by his own committee or just favor his personal interests with Quatar Sports.
 
The basic principle of FFP is that clubs shouldn't be spending more than what they're able to self-generate. Allowing private donations screws that principle completely.
That's why I don't support FFP completely, I would actually like to see private donations be allowed since it does no harm to the club's finances. And I should be able to donate to whatever business I like right?

We're not talking about private investments here. The sheiks that pay funds into PSG/City don't expect any capital gain from those operations. It's a fucking joke that clubs with next to non-existant tradition, like PSG, all of a sudden get a 700 millions of euro sponsorship from Quatar and can totally fuck over the international market.
Billionaires not just donating money but also taking control is the other side of the coin that nobody likes. They're using a football club as a commercial vehicle to get their country on the map. It's kind of bizarre and I don't know how to prevent this. This could be a huge discussion and you can say it comes with the territory of capitalism or you could look at how the GAA clubs in Ireland run themselves or you could say a strict enforced FFP is the answer (see below)...

At the moment ideologically I'm happy to live with it and I'd like to just think most of the complaining is from fans of bigger clubs seeing that some small club now has better players than them and getting butthurt. Nobody gives a shit about Blackburn right? Why? They have the same situation as Chelsea/City/PSG except their owners are retarded.

There's a reason why PSG is currently under inquiry from UEFA. Now it's all about deciding whether Platini actually wants to enforce the rules suggested by his own committee or just favor his personal interests with Quatar Sports.
Most people in the know believe FFP will be enforced in its current form but big clubs will find ways around it because there are too many easy loopholes. Look at City's sponsor giving them billions over the next 10 years. Guess who owns City's sponsors? City's owners of course! That makes a joke of the rules lol!

If all FFP does is prevent some small clubs from going bust then it will have been a success imo, you can't hope too much from this world really...
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
That's why I don't support FFP completely, I would actually like to see private donations be allowed since it does no harm to the club's finances. And I should be able to donate to whatever business I like right?
Not supporting it completely means not supporting it at all lol. Once you allow mecenatism into the system, FFP loses any meaning.


Billionaires not just donating money but also taking control is the other side of the coin that nobody likes. They're using a football club as a commercial vehicle to get their country on the map. It's kind of bizarre and I don't know how to prevent this. This could be a huge discussion and you can say it comes with the territory of capitalism or you could look at how the GAA clubs in Ireland run themselves or you could say a strict enforced FFP is the answer (see below)...

At the moment ideologically I'm happy to live with it and I'd like to just think most of the complaining is from fans of bigger clubs seeing that some small club now has better players than them and getting butthurt. Nobody gives a shit about Blackburn right? Why? They have the same situation as Chelsea/City/PSG except their owners are retarded.
I actually don't care why they do it. What matters to me is that they're consciously breaking the rules and altering the balance of the football market.

Most people in the know believe FFP will be enforced in its current form but big clubs will find ways around it because there are too many easy loopholes. Look at City's sponsor giving them billions over the next 10 years. Guess who owns City's sponsors? City's owners of course! That makes a joke of the rules lol!
It's not a matter of loopholes. PSG's sponsorship is under inquiry because it's blatantly out of proportion in relation to both the maket value of the club's trademark and its consumer base. There are enough juridical instruments to punish financial abuses from clubs like PSG and Cty. The prinicple of proportionality is one of those. The true question is another one: do the global football institutions actually want to enforce FFP? I'm inclined to say no, because of the presence of corrupt leaders like Blatter and Platini, who will always favor their personal interests instead of pursuing legality.
 
What I don't like about preventing donations is that it'll force clubs that were originally civil organizations (I'm sorry if that's not the right wording, I have to translate it from my language) to go to private hands if they're declared insolvent, and that's the worst that could happen. So yea, I definitely don't support billionaires "donating" money to take care of the institutions—the air quotes are because donations are a way to avoid taxes, so it's a way to clean dirty money—like what'll prolly happen in Independiente here, but if that's the only thing stopping the club from bankrupcy then it might become a viable option. Billionaires doing that but not asking to have any control of the club is obviously much better.

Obviously what's happening with many English clubs and PSG among others is past that stage since they're already privatized, but FFP shouldn't force privatizations. So don't say it doesn't have any meaning because of donations, what we should aim for is to have all people's clubs not the other way around.

While I hate private capitals and many other things about football, I'm still gonna watch Chelsea or City or Barça because I'd rather see the issues as what happens inside the field and what happens outside. I love football, so I'll leave the analysis about violence (extra important here) and dirty business for weekdays and matches for weekends. In Argentina all clubs have barrabravas, who are way worse than hooligans because they have political ties, but I'm gonna try to not stop enjoying football because of them while I campaign to have laws passed so they're declared criminals.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
Obviously what's happening with many English clubs and PSG among others is past that stage since they're already privatized, but FFP shouldn't force privatizations. So don't say it doesn't have any meaning because of donations, what we should aim for is to have all people's clubs not the other way around.
Not sure if this was supposed to be a counter argument to my argument on mecenatism, but I really don't understand what you're trying to say here.
 

Sapientia

Wir knutschen
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Yes we all hate billionaire owners but what if you or me became billionaires in the not too distant future and we went back to our childhood clubs to help them out and help fund a new changing room, a new pitch, or, say, a few new players for them? Pretty innocent right?
Most german football fans don't like dietmar hopp

Ah and qatar is not investing in psg for fun and real and barça won't have problem with the ffp.
 
Well if you take only that paragraph of course you're not gonna understand what I meant. What I was going for is, don't say donations are the same as privatizations so if donations exist the FFP is pointless, because that would prevent civil institutions from existing if they're on the verge of bankrupcy and that would, for all intents and purposes, have the same result as allowing the billionaires doing the donations to take control of the clubs. Which would develop on not following that very FFP you're talking about.

It wasn't really a counter argument as much as a comment, but take it as you wish. I just had to take it off my chest because I've made my mind up about private capital in football a long time ago.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
I don't see how donations have anything to do with privatizations (assuming that non-privatized clubs exist). The problems with clubs such as PSG/Chelsea/City is that they have potentially infinite capitals that aren't generated by the club itself. The exact moment you allow the investment of endless private capitals into football clubs, regardless of parameters like the market value of the trademark, the user base etc, you're basically negating the foundation of FFP, since such operations are gonna invalidate the equation incomes/financial liquidity that FFP is based upon.

Italian Serie A was one of the richest championships in the World before FFP, since we had clubs such as FC Inter and AC Milan with extremely rich owners, who would just fund their clubs endlessly with private capitals. Now those clubs are losing their supremacy because there are more virtuous clubs such as Napoli and Roma, who are able to achieve good results on the field, while also respecting FFP. I like where we're going with FFP. Of course, you may agree of disagree with FFP, but as long as it is a rule, it should be respected by everyone, regardless of whether the club is led by a sheik or a russian businessman.
 
I don't understand how you don't get what I said, but whatever. Language barriers from my part I guess. (donations made to clubs on the verge of bankruptcy = prevent bankruptcy; otherwise they are taken over by corporations or billionaires that are gonna try to make money out of football for themselves)

And yea, non-privatized clubs where presidents are elected democratically still exist and should be the rule. But if we're gonna continue applying neoliberalism to football, then you can forget about FFP, since they're just gonna make football more of a business than it already is and less of a competitive sport, so who cares about financial fair play at that point?

Edit Haunter : Yea no I just meant that donations as a whole aren't necessarily a bad thing , I wasn't specifically talking about FFP there. I understand the reasons why it was introduced, but the fact that privatizations occurred before is the reason why I have issues seeing FFP being respected. I'm glad we're on the same page on the matter of SAs v. civil organizations :D
 
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haunter

Banned deucer.
Bankruptcy should never happen with FFP, since clubs shouldn't be spending more than they're able to produce and therefore never resort to getting into debt. That's actually one of the reasons why UEFA introduced FFP to begin with.

And I totally agree that democratic elections should be the rule, especially for clubs that are very representative of certain populations. Napoli is actually one of those, with its massive user base. But we don't live into an ideal world, so I doubt that's ever going to be the case.
 
and these teams are preventing those that manage money well to stop up to the next level, look at spurs and Everton finishing around 5th and 6th, if we didn't have Chelsea and City being where they don't deserve these teams would probably be in the champions league on a frequent bases.
 
lol the one time i decided to check this thread i found out why i never come here. reyscarface calling others plastic fans when last year i asked him a few easy question about napoli that he didn't even know. Like when they got promoted and when they got relegated. Reyscarface you're not what they call a plastic fan, but you're what they call a ''Glory Hunter''. When Napoli were on the rise you decided to bandwagon because it was inevitable they'll become an established club. That being said you also went on to tell me last year aswell that you also support dortmund. lol. So yeah you are what they call a Glory Hunter. Pretend you support lesser teams that are on the rise. Hey next up Atletico Madrid.

PS. everyone who says they're a chelsea fan doesn't have to be a plastic fan. Say you were born around 1995-1997, then you're at the age of 6-8 by the time abramovic took over the club. that's when people actually start to understand what football is and start supporting a team. So really, he's not a plastic fan if he's supported chelsea ever since he was a kid. You're a plastic fan because you only supported two teams when they established themselves and became dark horses and then forces in europe. Now if an 18 year old comes to me and tell me ''hey im a PSG fan'' that's what i call plastic.
 

Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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What the fuck am I reading? Are you for real. You aren't a plastic fan if you haven't supported the team since you were sucking your mother's titty or anything. That's just a fuck wrong and an elitist way of going about it.

There is no "stigma" or any such bullshit at supporting a club starting at any age. Real plasticity is switching loyalties at the drop of a hat. Believe it or not some people aren't just that clued in to form loyalties. Especially if the football scene doesn't belong to their native country.
 
What the fuck am I reading? Are you for real. You aren't a plastic fan if you haven't supported the team since you were sucking your mother's titty or anything. That's just a fuck wrong and an elitist way of going about it.

There is no "stigma" or any such bullshit at supporting a club starting at any age. Real plasticity is switching loyalties at the drop of a hat. Believe it or not some people aren't just that clued in to form loyalties. Especially if the football scene doesn't belong to their native country.
You're either a dumbass or a dumbass. This is why i stay out of this thread, to avoid dumbasses like you. If you go read the last few pages you realize they are calling chelsea fans plastic because they started supporting the club when the money came in. Which is in 2003. So yeah it's not like some 18 year old who randomly supported chelsea when they got money, that's what you call disloyal. There are other meanings to plastic, just like the one you mentioned where (BAN ME PLEASE)s switch teams like it's nothing. But it's like saying a guy is born in 2015 decides to support city, by then city is an established club just like each and every other club like Real Madrid and Barcelona so why can't he support city but he can support barcelona?
 
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Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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A. Yes I read the previous posts.
B. You aren't exactly arguing against me, but doing a false-positive analysis of your own post (sprinkled with lots of ad hominem)
C. And doesn't change the fact that your definition of plasticity is flawed. I don't even care who's supporting Chelsea or all that drama, but I have problems with statements like "So really, he's not a plastic fan if he's supported chelsea ever since he was a kid. You're a plastic fan because you only supported two teams when they established themselves and became dark horses and then forces in europe" ... etc, and that's what I'm arguing against. No need to act like a dick.
 
Oh my, stop misinterpreting what Sweep said. Plasticity is one thing, but they're discussing plastic as in credit cards, so big bucks. For that very reason the definition of a plastic fan is one that became a fan of said club after it started wasting a lot of money in players, and nothing to do with changing teams (that's pure sellout if you ask me, but whatever).

Even then, there's nothing wrong with being a plastic fan if you're a foreigner. You're a fan of the teams, not the wallet so it's a really stupid discussion.
 
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