I'm in favor of a Speed Boost ban. That way, baton pass could still be usable but not obscenely broken/irritating, and BLAZIKEN could finally come back to OU and below. Which I've wanted for a while now anyway. Really, I don't think baton pass is so bad as a whole, Speed Boost just makes it a bit rediculous.
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Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains
- Thread starter haunter
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Speed boost as a whole shouldnt be banned. Priority moves can easily counter this, and most of the pokemon with it are frail. The combo is what the problem is. Protect and baton pass could make a slow but strong threat like conk become faster.
Why would we do that? Speed boost isn't the problem. Are Scolipede, Yanmega, or Sharpedo OP right now? Not at all. The combination of speed boost + Baton Pass isn't OP either. It's the combination of Scolipede + Espeon + Mr Mime. + Sylveon + Vaporeon + Zapdos/Mew/Smeargle that's uncompetitive.
Plus, if you're worried about a blanket ban making a strategy less viable, why on earth would you do the exact same thing to a different, less broken strategy? Speed Boost is not a problem in OU at all.
PS: Blaze-iken wouldn't even be good in OU. Sure, you could finally use it, but it'd be largely outclassed by something currently C ranked.
Edit:Actually I feel as a last resort: Ban Speed Boost+Baton Pass+Magic Bounce
This is the most reasonable as not only does it allow baton pass teams to carry on, albeit nerfed ,choosing between reliable speed or status protection
(I had a change of heart, this is better)
(I stole it from Mango Smoothie
)
This is the most reasonable as not only does it allow baton pass teams to carry on, albeit nerfed ,choosing between reliable speed or status protection
(I had a change of heart, this is better)
(I stole it from Mango Smoothie
)
That isn't even true. Sharpedo is a good pokemon in OU (currently B-), and uses Speed Boost without Baton Pass. Why would you hurt its viability to nerf something that doesn't have to do with it?
Offensive scolipede doesn't use Baton Pass, and quick pass does scolipede use, but speed boost isn't OP on it.
I've seen one Sharpedo on the OU ladder. One. And I have yet to see offensive Scolipede. I'll take your word for it, but I'm still in favor of the banning of Speed Boost. Least complicated solution, albeit imperfect.
Although, the best really would be ban Baton Pass + Speed Boost
Speed boost is what currently allows BP to keep the pressure on the other team, set up subs before they attack, boost your SpDef before they hit you with a special attack etc. removing the speed boost user essentially removes the heart of a full baton pass team. Plus, there are non-chain uses of baton pass on magic guard users as well. Baton pass on Espeon prevents it from being pursuit trapped, while baton pass on Absol is a cool way of retaining momentum if it's facing something it threatens and is likely to switch out.
EDIT: forget about the blaziken thing, blaziken with speed boost alone is still pretty broken in OU.
Yes, banning speed boost is a solution to completely get rid of any viability Baton Pass teams currently have. But
a) That isn't the idea. We want a solution that would balance them, not make them suck.
b) The solution is flawed. Speed Boost is not OP. Speed Boost + Baton Pass is not OP. Speed Boost Scolipede + Magic Bounce Espeon + Sound Proof Mr. Mime + Sylveon is a strategy that is won at the team preview. I'm not sure if it'd be considered OP, but it'd probably be in our best interests to make it such that it can be beaten by the standard team.
Completely banning an ability that can be used very effectively in ways not related to dedicated Baton Pass teams, in my opinion, is not the right solution.
Think about last generation. Swift Swim wasn't banned. Drizzle wasn't banned. The combination was. Something even more complex than that is the best possible solution.
As a user of Baton Pass teams, that isn't entirely true. We would just have to manually, and separately, accumulate Speed and Defense boosts, nothing that can't be done with both Zapdos and Vaporeon. That being said, Scolipede is plenty manageable as long as people make smart lead selection choices, as stated many times before in many different ways.
Fair point. However, it would cripple them further than desired, no?
Also, isn't soundproof its main niche? Zappy isn't soundproof.
That's not a bad idea. Mr. Mime's only viability comes from Baton Pass.
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I don't think so, but I can test it simply by removing Scolipede and replacing him with something else. Also, though Soundproof is Mr. Mime's main niche, it isn't very useful as long as Espeon is alive. So Mr. Mime and Espeon, in a sense, are redundant.
The only things Mr. Mime has that makes him not redundant w/Espeon are fairy typing and an immunity to Perish Song. The fairy typing is already taken care of w/Sylveon and Perish Song, while basically certain to disrupt any BP chain lacking soundproof, is so rare that soundproof can be foregone without any great loss to the BP teams. I don't think banning the combo of soundproof and BP will solve a whole lot.
What even runs Perish song in OU now? From what I am lead to believe that was only really run by Politoed who has fallen from its throne in OU down a ways. Were there really any other users that could've been considered OU material (who would actually could want to run Perish Song that is?)
Have to agree here, the available counters to baton pass are very limited and on top of that aren't even that reliable. I feel some form of complex nerf is in order because as it is it is overpowered and limits team building.
If Pokemon is like war with troops/chess pieces, baton pass is a really strange army archetype.
The archetypes that come most naturally to people is to wallbreak/overwhelm stuff (blitzkrieg), to attack - but be able to tank hits (attrition), or to play defensively and stall (scorched earth). I think Pokemon appeals to a lot of people because of this warlike nature where you gain certain advantages throughout the match, predict certain moves and advances, and progress towards a win. Some teams are weak to particular styles, but you might still break through - and even if you can't, you can make some adjustments to better combat that style while not being useless against other styles.
Baton pass is like if the opposing army was comprised of Power Rangers that team up to form a giant Megazord.
... None of the other team archetypes are naturally prepared for this... thing. It's weird, it's not like war, you have to use moves or Pokemon that either don't synergize well with your playstyle, are only used because of the existence of baton pass, or force you to play in a very specific playstyle (Hyper offense, baton pass itself, and maybe some others). Otherwise, playing against baton pass makes you feel helpless. You don't gain any advancements throughout the battle - no, you don't even threaten to make any advancements like you might if you had an unprepared team facing stall, you just click moves hopelessly knowing you can't do anything.
Instead, baton pass is one giant "make or break it" situation - If I don't destroy this baton pass chain now, I'm dead (not even mentioning that the opponent can always opt for another round of baton passing fun). Losing is demoralizing. Winning feels like narrowly avoiding a disaster. Watching two baton passing teams fight each other is even worse. It's two people trying to assemble a stronger Megazord more quickly while also sabotaging the opponent's efforts to do the same thing.
That's why it's not fun to play against. I know fun is a subjective term, but I don't think the vast majority of people are interested in Pokemon for this kinda thing. Not with the way people talk about it. Not with the things people get excited about. Not with the way people grew up with the movies and saw Ash fight the Elite Four.
I think Baton Pass is potentially unhealthy for the metagame because many people dislike it so much. There are other more quantifiable reasons for thinking Baton Pass is imbalancing and whatnot. But many people actually hate baton pass, and will immediately resign if they see baton pass. Or as a few have eloquently summarized, it's "lame."
Maybe baton pass wouldn't be as imbalanced if people did severely adapt to combat baton pass, but people don't want to - it's not a playstyle they respect in the first place, it limits options, or it causes their teams to do worse against other playstyles - playstyles that they enjoy playing against far more than baton pass. Baton pass isn't fun to play with or against for most people, and I think if the game were heavily geared towards baton pass, it would turn a lot of people off from competitive Pokemon in general. The metagame is becoming much more conducive to baton pass teams, and that's why the issue is becoming more prominent. I think people feel as if they are at risk of dealing with a metagame that becomes increasingly revolved around a really annoying playstyle that has the same pokemon every time and is also so so different from standard playstyles that people enjoy.
That's why I think baton pass teams as they currently stand might be unhealthy for the metagame and the people who play it.
The archetypes that come most naturally to people is to wallbreak/overwhelm stuff (blitzkrieg), to attack - but be able to tank hits (attrition), or to play defensively and stall (scorched earth). I think Pokemon appeals to a lot of people because of this warlike nature where you gain certain advantages throughout the match, predict certain moves and advances, and progress towards a win. Some teams are weak to particular styles, but you might still break through - and even if you can't, you can make some adjustments to better combat that style while not being useless against other styles.
Baton pass is like if the opposing army was comprised of Power Rangers that team up to form a giant Megazord.
... None of the other team archetypes are naturally prepared for this... thing. It's weird, it's not like war, you have to use moves or Pokemon that either don't synergize well with your playstyle, are only used because of the existence of baton pass, or force you to play in a very specific playstyle (Hyper offense, baton pass itself, and maybe some others). Otherwise, playing against baton pass makes you feel helpless. You don't gain any advancements throughout the battle - no, you don't even threaten to make any advancements like you might if you had an unprepared team facing stall, you just click moves hopelessly knowing you can't do anything.
Instead, baton pass is one giant "make or break it" situation - If I don't destroy this baton pass chain now, I'm dead (not even mentioning that the opponent can always opt for another round of baton passing fun). Losing is demoralizing. Winning feels like narrowly avoiding a disaster. Watching two baton passing teams fight each other is even worse. It's two people trying to assemble a stronger Megazord more quickly while also sabotaging the opponent's efforts to do the same thing.
That's why it's not fun to play against. I know fun is a subjective term, but I don't think the vast majority of people are interested in Pokemon for this kinda thing. Not with the way people talk about it. Not with the things people get excited about. Not with the way people grew up with the movies and saw Ash fight the Elite Four.
I think Baton Pass is potentially unhealthy for the metagame because many people dislike it so much. There are other more quantifiable reasons for thinking Baton Pass is imbalancing and whatnot. But many people actually hate baton pass, and will immediately resign if they see baton pass. Or as a few have eloquently summarized, it's "lame."
Maybe baton pass wouldn't be as imbalanced if people did severely adapt to combat baton pass, but people don't want to - it's not a playstyle they respect in the first place, it limits options, or it causes their teams to do worse against other playstyles - playstyles that they enjoy playing against far more than baton pass. Baton pass isn't fun to play with or against for most people, and I think if the game were heavily geared towards baton pass, it would turn a lot of people off from competitive Pokemon in general. The metagame is becoming much more conducive to baton pass teams, and that's why the issue is becoming more prominent. I think people feel as if they are at risk of dealing with a metagame that becomes increasingly revolved around a really annoying playstyle that has the same pokemon every time and is also so so different from standard playstyles that people enjoy.
That's why I think baton pass teams as they currently stand might be unhealthy for the metagame and the people who play it.
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I personally think Baton Pass teams are, at the moment, overpowered, for the reasons that have been highlighted in this thread. They're nearly unstoppable after a few turns, are pretty much immune to prediction, have very niche counters that sometimes don't even work (I'm still laughing at Haze Murkrow being seriously suggested), and, most importantly to me, they are entirely matchup-based. Either your team loses to BP or it doesn't, simple as that. The reverse isn't true, though. If you have Ditto, Flyingspam (or massive offensive pressure in general), Haze, or Perish Song, the BP player can still find a way around it, but if you don't, you might as well forfeit right there and then, because you have pretty much no chance. This gives an unfair advantage to the BP player. This is also untrue or any other playstyle. You don't defeat Stall or Hyper Offense just by packing one move or one Pokemon. Some Pokemon such as Kyurem-B or Mega-Mawile may be good against stall, but they are neither foolproof nor required. This applies to individual teams too (which BP is : it's pretty much just one team with a variation of 2 Pokemon at the most). A Rain team that is weak to Ferrothorn still has a chance to get through it if it plays very well, even if it's hard. Furthermore, being weak to a move or a Pokemon (which BP is against Haze) and being completely stopped by an entire team (which Stall is against BP) are two different things. Not being able to touch a single member of the opposing team with a single member of your team (which is mainly the case due to Baton Pass's switch priority) gives you absolutely no window of opportunity to win. Basically, BP is pretty much a no-risk strategy that's inherently advantageous.
That being said, I don't think Baton Pass is inherently broken. We shouldn't try to get rid of BP, we should just try to make it more manageable and balanced. Most importantly, we should try to stop BP teams from being this matchup-based. We could limit BP users to 2 per team, but that just seems like a cheap way to kill the BP playstyle in its entirety. I'm don't like the idea of banning BP+Speed Boost at all, since it only helps Offense which already don't do that badly against BP, and Stall gets stomped by it almost as hard as before. Besides, there's nothing wrong with passing Speed to something like Azumarill, Mega-Medicham, Mawile, or Mega-Heracross. The best solution for me seems to be banning BP+Magic Bounce. In fact, I'd be tempted to argue that Espeon is broken for its Baton Passing capabilities in the same way that, say, Mega-Lucario was broken for his sweeping capabilities. It doesn't matter that Espeon isn't good at anything else or on any other team, if a Pokemon is broken at only one thing on only one type of team with only one set, it is still broken. I personally would not be opposed to a straight-up Espeon ban. However, doing this might still make BP matchup-based : if the opponent has any method of Phazing or Status-inducing, he can win, and not all teams carry that. This does solve a lot of problems, though, since most teams that doesn't carry status or phazing are very offensive, and thus, aren't really bothered by BP in the first place. I think the main problem here is that, on the contrary, BP would be pretty unviable, and we might, once again, be killing the playstyle if we do that.
So, what I'd like to know is this : can we make Baton Pass competetive (aka, neither overpowered nor entirely matchup-based) without making it unviable? I believe we should try to do that if we can. However, something tells me that BP's switch priority is what makes that impossible. But who knows, maybe we'll find a solution.
That being said, I don't think Baton Pass is inherently broken. We shouldn't try to get rid of BP, we should just try to make it more manageable and balanced. Most importantly, we should try to stop BP teams from being this matchup-based. We could limit BP users to 2 per team, but that just seems like a cheap way to kill the BP playstyle in its entirety. I'm don't like the idea of banning BP+Speed Boost at all, since it only helps Offense which already don't do that badly against BP, and Stall gets stomped by it almost as hard as before. Besides, there's nothing wrong with passing Speed to something like Azumarill, Mega-Medicham, Mawile, or Mega-Heracross. The best solution for me seems to be banning BP+Magic Bounce. In fact, I'd be tempted to argue that Espeon is broken for its Baton Passing capabilities in the same way that, say, Mega-Lucario was broken for his sweeping capabilities. It doesn't matter that Espeon isn't good at anything else or on any other team, if a Pokemon is broken at only one thing on only one type of team with only one set, it is still broken. I personally would not be opposed to a straight-up Espeon ban. However, doing this might still make BP matchup-based : if the opponent has any method of Phazing or Status-inducing, he can win, and not all teams carry that. This does solve a lot of problems, though, since most teams that doesn't carry status or phazing are very offensive, and thus, aren't really bothered by BP in the first place. I think the main problem here is that, on the contrary, BP would be pretty unviable, and we might, once again, be killing the playstyle if we do that.
So, what I'd like to know is this : can we make Baton Pass competetive (aka, neither overpowered nor entirely matchup-based) without making it unviable? I believe we should try to do that if we can. However, something tells me that BP's switch priority is what makes that impossible. But who knows, maybe we'll find a solution.
I don't think this is true without seriously changing the way Baton Pass works. The ability to switch out of any potential threat into something not as threatened at virtually no cost to your set-up momentum isn't something you can nerf very easily, added to Ingrain pretty much negating Roar/Whirlwind permenantly (haze murkrow) AND Stored Power's lack of a cap (again why gamefreak why???) just makes these teams imo really hard to make competitive unless you remove these aspects, but then again is it even BP anymore at that point?
I feel like banning the combo of BP + Magic Bounce will really solve just about all of the problems. It opens up BP chains to phazing (before Ingrain), Taunt, and Encore, as well as status if you can expose them w/o a sub. The only ingrain BP'er is Smeargle and it makes it a lot tougher for BP teams if they have to rely on Smeargle to keep their chains intact, and even then, they still have trouble w/Taunt and Encore. Meanwhile, the only thing we lose is BP on Mega Absol, Xatu (BP and Magic Bounce aren't compatible for this thing anyway), and Espeon, which is no great loss. Whatever legit strategies we lose by banning this combo probably aren't worth a whole lot more than whatever legit strategies we lost by banning swagger.
Smeargle (after speed boosts) can generate a free turn with Spore and then ingrain on the switch/turn you stay to try and wake up (and it can come in on a predicted setup/shadow ball). I personally think Magic Bounce is like a more reliable Magic Coat (which i've seen pokemon run as a counter to hazards on other leads) which under normal circumstances isn't that bad/worthy of being banned any more than the moves it repels should. I think it would serve a better purpose if it was a more complex ban that would target BP teams more than normal ones (Speed Boost+BP+Magic Bounce), since I have yet to see a team with the combination of BP, Speed Boost, and Magic bounce that wasn't Full Baton Pass.
Now that I think of it, has anyone ever seen a Semi-Baton Pass playstyle like the Semi-Trick Room one?
Now that I think of it, has anyone ever seen a Semi-Baton Pass playstyle like the Semi-Trick Room one?
I think it'd save a lot of time and energy just to assume that everybody knows the realistic ways to deal with Baton Pass teams, and to stop mentioning all the obscure, unrealistic ones that have little use other than against baton pass. If you don't understand how it fits in the meta, this isn't the place to find out.
I'd rather talk about which ban is most reasonable. Some people don't support any ban at all, so I'd like to hear more from them (assuming it's not because you consider haze to be a reasonable expectation on all teams or something else like that). If you do support a ban, how would you do it (bear in mind, complex bans are to be avoided).
These are the ones that jumped out to me:
No ban, because there are reasonable arguments that Baton Pass isn't ban worthy
Banning Baton Pass is of course one option, but that would have the unwanted side effect of hurting small scale baton passing, which most people consider at least "not bad for the meta game"
Banning Espeon and/or Scolipede is another option, but Scolipede at least contributes to the meta with other viable sets, but we obviously shouldn't avoid this ban just because of that. Whether this would be too much/not enough for making baton pass within our idea of "acceptable" (which still hasn't been fully established).
Banning Baton Pass + Magic Bounce and/or Baton Pass + Speed Boost is another option, but would only really do the same thing as the last one, with unnecessary complexity imo.
Limiting the # of Baton Pass users on a team is another option, but again seems unnecessarily complex, and I don't see much precedent for it. If we could limit it so only one Baton Pass user were allowed, that'd solve everything, but I don't see it happening
If any of the 4 bans were to be suspected, I'd vote in favor, but I currently support the 2nd one because it would accomplish the necessary nerf while avoiding unnecessary complexity or side effects. Keeping Scolipede around is favorable, but I'm just going to look at how we treated the last decent Speed Booster and say preserving Scolipede shouldn't be a priority.
I'd rather talk about which ban is most reasonable. Some people don't support any ban at all, so I'd like to hear more from them (assuming it's not because you consider haze to be a reasonable expectation on all teams or something else like that). If you do support a ban, how would you do it (bear in mind, complex bans are to be avoided).
These are the ones that jumped out to me:
No ban, because there are reasonable arguments that Baton Pass isn't ban worthy
Banning Baton Pass is of course one option, but that would have the unwanted side effect of hurting small scale baton passing, which most people consider at least "not bad for the meta game"
Banning Espeon and/or Scolipede is another option, but Scolipede at least contributes to the meta with other viable sets, but we obviously shouldn't avoid this ban just because of that. Whether this would be too much/not enough for making baton pass within our idea of "acceptable" (which still hasn't been fully established).
Banning Baton Pass + Magic Bounce and/or Baton Pass + Speed Boost is another option, but would only really do the same thing as the last one, with unnecessary complexity imo.
Limiting the # of Baton Pass users on a team is another option, but again seems unnecessarily complex, and I don't see much precedent for it. If we could limit it so only one Baton Pass user were allowed, that'd solve everything, but I don't see it happening
If any of the 4 bans were to be suspected, I'd vote in favor, but I currently support the 2nd one because it would accomplish the necessary nerf while avoiding unnecessary complexity or side effects. Keeping Scolipede around is favorable, but I'm just going to look at how we treated the last decent Speed Booster and say preserving Scolipede shouldn't be a priority.
jrp
Banned deucer.
My opinion on baton pass is that being able to "counter" it 100% of the time forces a player to run all sorts of things that would typically be deemed nonviable in any other situation to be able to stop it. Certainly, Taunt Thundurus-I isn't a bad pokemon, but Thundurus is already short on moveslots for what it wants to do, and taunt only delays the inevitable against something like a + 1 sylveon. You can definitely run something stupid like Haze Focus Sash Quagsire since quite a few baton pass teams i've seen don't run hazards, but in general that's not exactly something that you can use outside of such a specialized role.
I'm actually not sure how I would go about "nerfing" baton pass should it come to a vote. The first thing that comes to mind is just banning the move itself, but there are uses outside of teams devoted to the strategy for the move, such as being able to escape pursuit as well as passing boosts from a singe pokemon to a recipient should it decide to, rather than with the aim of completing a chain.
I'm of the opinion that the strategy as a whole is unhealthy for the metagame, as it requires very little in the way of effort to successfully complete a chain, and is basically impossible to stop once it has begun setting up.
banning espeon and/or scoliopede isn't the best decision as neither pokemon on their own are particularly good outside of the specific role that they serve on baton pass, so I would be against such an idea, while a limit on the number of baton pass users on a team could certainly work, although there lacks precedent for such a policy.
I'm actually not sure how I would go about "nerfing" baton pass should it come to a vote. The first thing that comes to mind is just banning the move itself, but there are uses outside of teams devoted to the strategy for the move, such as being able to escape pursuit as well as passing boosts from a singe pokemon to a recipient should it decide to, rather than with the aim of completing a chain.
I'm of the opinion that the strategy as a whole is unhealthy for the metagame, as it requires very little in the way of effort to successfully complete a chain, and is basically impossible to stop once it has begun setting up.
banning espeon and/or scoliopede isn't the best decision as neither pokemon on their own are particularly good outside of the specific role that they serve on baton pass, so I would be against such an idea, while a limit on the number of baton pass users on a team could certainly work, although there lacks precedent for such a policy.
I'd think my BP team, which is very literally called the "Eevee Rangers (Super) Megaforce" is probably one of the closest things to this. It was designed with three ideals in mind. 1. To take full advantage of each members type immunities/strengths, 2. For each member to be able to boost both the team as a whole and the Final Blaster (Stored Power) via each member's boosting capability, and 3. to not be so overcentralized as where the members are helpless if one dies or if they never really get momentum. In other words, they can each fight on their own without necessarily needing to boost. A lot of the times, there ends up being more "quick passing", where only a limited number of boosts are made to strengthen a certain member, then there is long building up of boosts. Quick passing is often more useful than trying to rack up large boosts cause you're a sitting duck while you do the latter.
As for magic bounce, it's most of the time the only way a BP team has to deal with hazards and stray status. Removing it is a huge nerf in itself as I think there are only two baton passing defoggers. I could be wrong on that though. Without Magic Bounce, BP teams would have to rely on these, as well as the cleric eevees (sylveon and Umbreon) to take care of hazards and status. This does give stall teams a better chance, but you more or less kill the magic bouncers in the process. I think Magic Bounce is very literally the only thing keeping Espeon in OU
Wow. Baton Pass is causing this much trouble? In my honest opinion you should just learn to deal with it. I mean, what is going to be suspected next? All recovery moves? What is one good reason that Baton Pass should even be thought about being banned? I'm pretty sure its not centralizing the metagame at all. So in essence its just a bunch of butthurt people that got beaten by such a team too many times that want it to be banned. Baton Pass teams are really no different than weather teams.
Ok, you set up and pass to a certain member (let's say espeon), and then your opponent brings in their espeon counter (We'll call him Bisharp). If this was any other team, (or you didn't run fairy coverage) you would have to switch out your espeon, giving your opponent a turn to do something like set up SD, or hit whatever you switch in pretty hard since you are unboosted now. With Baton Pass, you don't even need to worry about your opponent's switch since you can (with minimal loss ot your momentum) bring in your Bisharp Counter (I don't know let's call it Sylveon Hyper Voice is a real pain at +6 sp attack) and with all those boosts not need to worry about anything Bisharp can do to you since you have all these defense boosts and probably +19 speed or something like that because you mispredicted the substitute at turn 3 (slight overexaggeration). Not only is losing momentum incredibly hard when using BP teams, but so is it for your opponent to regain it once because once you have even the slightest edge the momentum shifts incredibly fast. With regards to the Espeon comment, that's pretty much all Espeon is good for anyways, since it is outclasses as a special attacker, screens setter, and whatever other role you could want other than status/hazard deflector.
The thing with the argument about BP is that a simple ban isn't exactly the greatest idea since the pokemon aren't necessarily broken outside of the use of BP. The conjunction of the abilities and pokemon is what makes the team so lethally effective, which is why I think the only way to really solve this without making some really overarching/sweeping ban is to get more complex. Swagger could be dealt with that way because no one could justify using swagger viably outside of Swagplay, while using Espeon as a screener/anti-setup lead, Scolipede to set-up something slow like M-Heracross, and even BP to escape pursuit all have some use in OU. These are not at all broken as stand-alone pokemon and neither Espeon nor Scolipede can take hits very well, and can be used as fairly decent team support. If the problem with BP lies in the use of these abilities together, then that's what we should ban imo. But at this point we need to figure out exactly what makes BP so unbearable to take appropriate action.
If Baton Pass in nature is uncounterable outside of niche strategies (haze murkrow isn't going away) then I think we would have to take it to the level of either limiting the number of passers on a team or just outright get rid of BP if that is our only option. If we find that it is mostly Ingrain/Magic Bounce making any attempt to Roar/Whirlwind out the team member null, then that is what we should ban. If we find out that it's scolipede passing on passive speed boosts, then ban speed boost with baton pass.
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