Why 28? 20 is enough to outspeed it. You should also reference how that + 0 attack IV lets you beat mandibuzz (especially if you have sub to block knock off).
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Heatran [QC 3/4]
- Thread starter ShootingStarmie
- Start date
20 Spe Heatran only hits a speed stat of 195, while an uninvested Mega Venusaur hits 196. You need 28 Spe EVs in order to hit 197 and outspeed/Taunt defensive Mega Venusaur.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and just go ahead and use max HP instead of 248 HP. Heatran's max HP is not divisible by 8, and so decreasing it by 1 point does not decrease the amount of Stealth Rock damage taken.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and just go ahead and use max HP instead of 248 HP. Heatran's max HP is not divisible by 8, and so decreasing it by 1 point does not decrease the amount of Stealth Rock damage taken.
Last edited:
oh yeah, derp! I read my spread and thought it said 20, it was actually 32 (I am an idiot!), I find sub better for me since you can also scout for EQ against mega venu (which can 2HKO you) and spread poison/spread burn/phase/hit stuff (my main way of bringing in heatran against it is rotom-w volt switching). I guess for balloon variants EQ is a non-issue, but still (a rare few carry knock off too).
Point is, it lets you also avoid the taunt from min speed mandibuzz and set up rocks/sub/taunt it/status it. Taunting it blocks defog (never a bad thing) and mandibuzz hates status with a passion (poison is obvious, and burn nerfs the damage from foul play/knock off).
I don't know if anyone has said this, but you should slash Ancientpower on the Offensive sets. It hits a lot of common Pokemon really hard right now (e.g. Zard-y, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir). Also you might mention somewhere that it has to watch out for random EQ's, on stuff like megasaur and Zard-y (or even lati@s).
foul play use the target's Atk stat so burning mandibuzz won't reduce damage. setting your Atk IV to zero, however, does.
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
no, you're wrong. If the user of foul play is burned it deals half damage.
http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/foul_play
Brings my point home, Mandibuzz is probably the only wall that is crippled by ANY status whatsoever, which is why I always use it with a status absorber (like Gliscor or Conkeldurr) or cleric (like Chansey/Blissey or Sylveon).
Most of the sets are fine and I really haven't used some of them so I can't really comment much, but I think the Choice Scarf set can be improved by quite a bit.
First of all, I don't completely agree with the slashes and think that Stone Edge should be made a bigger part of the set while Earth Power is far from mandatory. With Flash Cannon, the only Pokemon in standard play you really hit with Earth Power are other Heatran and Charizard X. Offensive Heatran isn't overly common and probably won't try to switch into you anyway while you're outsped by DD Zard X and can't really "hurt" BulkyZard. Specially Defensive Heatran is mostly seen on Stall or Balanced teams, isn't even OHKO'd by Earth Power and can scout your move with Protect if it has it. Add to that the fact that Choiced Ground Moves, especially Unstabbed ones, are really dangerous to just throw around and I think that Earth Power is quite honestly a lesser option. While Volcarona is far from a top threat in XY and Talonflame usage also isn't as high as it used to be (OHKOing it instead of 2HKOing it with recoil + Fire Blast is still nice though), Charizard Y is a very real threat to offensive teams and ScarfTran certainly is one of the better switch-ins for it. Not being able to OHKO it really sucks because there usually isn't much else that can actually switch into Fire Blast reasonably well on those teams. At the very least, it deserves a main slash instead of just a mention at the end. Offensive/Balanced teams also usually have the capabilities to revenge kill/stop Charizard X and especially Heatran way better than the capability of switching into Charizard Y reliably.
Why not Ancientpower? Ancientpower is way worse against both Charizard Y and Volcarona as you don't OHKO either of them. Granted, Volcarona can't do much back, but if it has Roost and Quiver Dance it can probably stall you out of your 8 PP quite easily. Stone Edge circumvents that problem and is stronger than Ancientpower against both Volcarona and Charizard Y even with a Modest nature.
Thus, I'd remove all mentions of Ancientpower and replace them with Stone Edge. The miss chance sucks, yes, but overall your chance of actually killing those threats is still greater than if you used Ancientpower.
Next, I think ScarfTran is first and foremost a cleaner; it just happens to revenge kill a few things along the way. A Modest Nature on Heatran does grant a huge power boost and is incredibly helpful when dealing with some Pokemon, especially when using Overheat. In many cases, it gets kills on things Timid Heatran can only dream of. Heatran still reaches 378 speed, allowing it to outspeed the fastest unboosted mon it can possibly outspeed (Greninja) while gaining a lot of firepower. Missing out on a few things sucks, which is why Timid shouldn't be completely neglected as an option, but I honestly think the extra power is more useful than the extra speed, especially when "cleaning up", which is what Heatran should aim to do. Adamant Dragonite needs SR to break Multiscale anyway and between the fact that SR is all but guaranteed and the fact that Dragonite gets free setup on all of Heatrans other moves (so you'd have to sacrifice something and then send it back in) I honestly don't think Hidden Power [Ice] has all that much merit to it.
I am also not sure what the first Pokemon in this part is (I assume Excadrill, which, honestly, shouldn't even be running Adamant)
Because of all that I'd change the current Choice Scarf set to something along the lines of this:
Choice Scarf
########
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Overheat / Fire Blast (both have their merits as shown in the calcs below, Overheat keeps some of the "revenge killing" while Fire Blast + Flamethrower is probably the best if you're just trying to clean, I was sceptical of Overheat at first but it really comes in handy against some threats)
move 2: Flash Cannon
move 3: Stone Edge / Earth Power (although I have run Earth Power alongside Stone Edge and dual STAB before so maybe slash it into space 4 as well?? idk)
move 4: Flamethrower / Fire Blast / Hidden Power Ice
ability: Flash Fire
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Like I said, just something along the lines of that, I just disregarded "Slashitis" but I'm sure you can make it more comprehensive pretty easily. And Hidden Power [Ice] is pretty much worthless with Modest unless you really want to OHKO Landorus(-T) so I guess that would need a mention too.
First of all, I don't completely agree with the slashes and think that Stone Edge should be made a bigger part of the set while Earth Power is far from mandatory. With Flash Cannon, the only Pokemon in standard play you really hit with Earth Power are other Heatran and Charizard X. Offensive Heatran isn't overly common and probably won't try to switch into you anyway while you're outsped by DD Zard X and can't really "hurt" BulkyZard. Specially Defensive Heatran is mostly seen on Stall or Balanced teams, isn't even OHKO'd by Earth Power and can scout your move with Protect if it has it. Add to that the fact that Choiced Ground Moves, especially Unstabbed ones, are really dangerous to just throw around and I think that Earth Power is quite honestly a lesser option. While Volcarona is far from a top threat in XY and Talonflame usage also isn't as high as it used to be (OHKOing it instead of 2HKOing it with recoil + Fire Blast is still nice though), Charizard Y is a very real threat to offensive teams and ScarfTran certainly is one of the better switch-ins for it. Not being able to OHKO it really sucks because there usually isn't much else that can actually switch into Fire Blast reasonably well on those teams. At the very least, it deserves a main slash instead of just a mention at the end. Offensive/Balanced teams also usually have the capabilities to revenge kill/stop Charizard X and especially Heatran way better than the capability of switching into Charizard Y reliably.
Why not Ancientpower? Ancientpower is way worse against both Charizard Y and Volcarona as you don't OHKO either of them. Granted, Volcarona can't do much back, but if it has Roost and Quiver Dance it can probably stall you out of your 8 PP quite easily. Stone Edge circumvents that problem and is stronger than Ancientpower against both Volcarona and Charizard Y even with a Modest nature.
0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 340-400 (108.9 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 276-328 (88.4 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 184-220 (58.9 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. +2 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 140-168 (44.8 - 53.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery <- easily roostable and this assumes 0 defensive investment
252+ SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 256-304 (86.1 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 292-344 (98.3 - 115.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 316-372 (106 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 276-328 (88.4 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 184-220 (58.9 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. +2 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 140-168 (44.8 - 53.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery <- easily roostable and this assumes 0 defensive investment
252+ SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 256-304 (86.1 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 292-344 (98.3 - 115.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 316-372 (106 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Thus, I'd remove all mentions of Ancientpower and replace them with Stone Edge. The miss chance sucks, yes, but overall your chance of actually killing those threats is still greater than if you used Ancientpower.
Next, I think ScarfTran is first and foremost a cleaner; it just happens to revenge kill a few things along the way. A Modest Nature on Heatran does grant a huge power boost and is incredibly helpful when dealing with some Pokemon, especially when using Overheat. In many cases, it gets kills on things Timid Heatran can only dream of. Heatran still reaches 378 speed, allowing it to outspeed the fastest unboosted mon it can possibly outspeed (Greninja) while gaining a lot of firepower. Missing out on a few things sucks, which is why Timid shouldn't be completely neglected as an option, but I honestly think the extra power is more useful than the extra speed, especially when "cleaning up", which is what Heatran should aim to do. Adamant Dragonite needs SR to break Multiscale anyway and between the fact that SR is all but guaranteed and the fact that Dragonite gets free setup on all of Heatrans other moves (so you'd have to sacrifice something and then send it back in) I honestly don't think Hidden Power [Ice] has all that much merit to it.
I am also not sure what the first Pokemon in this part is (I assume Excadrill, which, honestly, shouldn't even be running Adamant)
but I know for a fact that Adamant Lucario still outspeeds Heatran and it doesn't have +1 most of the time so that only really leaves Dragonite.
Because of all that I'd change the current Choice Scarf set to something along the lines of this:
Choice Scarf
########
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Overheat / Fire Blast (both have their merits as shown in the calcs below, Overheat keeps some of the "revenge killing" while Fire Blast + Flamethrower is probably the best if you're just trying to clean, I was sceptical of Overheat at first but it really comes in handy against some threats)
move 2: Flash Cannon
move 3: Stone Edge / Earth Power (although I have run Earth Power alongside Stone Edge and dual STAB before so maybe slash it into space 4 as well?? idk)
move 4: Flamethrower / Fire Blast / Hidden Power Ice
ability: Flash Fire
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Modest
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Like I said, just something along the lines of that, I just disregarded "Slashitis" but I'm sure you can make it more comprehensive pretty easily. And Hidden Power [Ice] is pretty much worthless with Modest unless you really want to OHKO Landorus(-T) so I guess that would need a mention too.
As for actual calcs where the extra power from Modest Heatran comes in handy:
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 280-331 (93.3 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (enormous chance to OHKO without SR, Thundurus is a pretty common "lead" and probably won't just outright Thunder Wave you especially if you lead with Heatran)
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 326-386 (100.6 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (only way to OHKO Aegislash without a boosting item which is pretty huge)
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 280-331 (87.5 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (easy to achieve considering that Landorus has no recovery and is not very likely to switch out of you)
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 265-313 (101.5 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Medicham is not very likely to switch out of you unless you come right into it)
252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 165-195 (46 - 54.4%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (high roll on first hit allowing you to stay in even if it was at full health is pretty huge without HP Ice; also one of the few situations where HP Ice comes in handy on Modest, almost always OHKOing after SR)
252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 133-157 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 314-372 (97.2 - 115.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 222-264 (79.8 - 94.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (instead of never killing)
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 131-154 (45.8 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (one of the main reasons to run it since Greninja is exceedingly dangerous to Balanced/Offensive teams and this gets rid of any chance of it ever switching into you)
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 107-126 (33.1 - 39%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO (meaning Keldeo can only switch in safely once)
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Talonflame: 133-157 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO (kills with 1 turn of Brave Bird recoil, Timid has a high chance of barely missing it; not really that big since Talonflame will take more recoil damage and/or not come right into you usually but still occassionally helpful)
most of these KOs are with SR on the field but that also means you'll at least have a shot at getting them instead of outright not doing so without SR.
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 280-331 (93.3 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (enormous chance to OHKO without SR, Thundurus is a pretty common "lead" and probably won't just outright Thunder Wave you especially if you lead with Heatran)
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 326-386 (100.6 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (only way to OHKO Aegislash without a boosting item which is pretty huge)
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 280-331 (87.5 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (easy to achieve considering that Landorus has no recovery and is not very likely to switch out of you)
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Medicham: 265-313 (101.5 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Medicham is not very likely to switch out of you unless you come right into it)
252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 165-195 (46 - 54.4%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (high roll on first hit allowing you to stay in even if it was at full health is pretty huge without HP Ice; also one of the few situations where HP Ice comes in handy on Modest, almost always OHKOing after SR)
252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 133-157 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 314-372 (97.2 - 115.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 222-264 (79.8 - 94.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (instead of never killing)
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 131-154 (45.8 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (one of the main reasons to run it since Greninja is exceedingly dangerous to Balanced/Offensive teams and this gets rid of any chance of it ever switching into you)
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 107-126 (33.1 - 39%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO (meaning Keldeo can only switch in safely once)
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Talonflame: 133-157 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO (kills with 1 turn of Brave Bird recoil, Timid has a high chance of barely missing it; not really that big since Talonflame will take more recoil damage and/or not come right into you usually but still occassionally helpful)
most of these KOs are with SR on the field but that also means you'll at least have a shot at getting them instead of outright not doing so without SR.
Last edited:
I didn't see it mentioned in the thread thus far, but I'm wondering how viable a Binding Band is on the Trapper set. Magma Storm's BP got dropped to 100 this Gen, which is unfortunate, but it's residual damage got buffed to 1/8 per turn from 1/16 in Gen V. With a Binding Band equipped, this jumps up to 1/6 per turn, which is quite impressive.
Yeah, why isn't Stone Edge listed on the offensive set? It hits a lot of Pokemon for 4x damage, such as Charizard-Y, Mega Pinsir, Volcarona, and Talonflame. Honestly, it's one of the best moves for Heatran imo, as it helps it deal with a lot of Pokemon Heatran is supposed to wall. (Air Balloon helps Heatran deal with EQ Charizard-Y and Mega Pinsir)
Stone Edge is pretty unnecessary on an offensive set. Not only does Charizard Y outspeed - and with even a little bit of prior damage - OHKO you with Focus Blast, but Pinsir almost always comes out lategame when your Balloon is already popped and also picks you off in one hit. Not to mention that Stone Edge doesn't kill it while Fire Blast does.
Volcarona is rare and, quite honestly, Toxic already cripples it enough from the offensive set since it can't really touch you without Hidden Power [Ground] - which, again, kills you in one hit. Talonflame takes plenty from Fire Blast and is better handled by Pokemon other than Offensive Heatran; Stone Edge on the Choice Scarf set is mostly for Charizard Y, hitting Volcarona and Talonflame is just a nice bonus and emergency catch. Choice Scarf also has no other moves it particularly needs or wants unlike the offensive set. Stone Edge has little merit on sets able to use support moves effectively, especially when you can't actually outspeed its most important target, while other moves such as Toxic, Stealth Rock and Earth Power become much more effective.
Volcarona is rare and, quite honestly, Toxic already cripples it enough from the offensive set since it can't really touch you without Hidden Power [Ground] - which, again, kills you in one hit. Talonflame takes plenty from Fire Blast and is better handled by Pokemon other than Offensive Heatran; Stone Edge on the Choice Scarf set is mostly for Charizard Y, hitting Volcarona and Talonflame is just a nice bonus and emergency catch. Choice Scarf also has no other moves it particularly needs or wants unlike the offensive set. Stone Edge has little merit on sets able to use support moves effectively, especially when you can't actually outspeed its most important target, while other moves such as Toxic, Stealth Rock and Earth Power become much more effective.
Last edited:
Ok, makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
PISTOLERO
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
ShootingStarmie I believe that as oldschool as it is, Torment at least deserves a mention, or even a set to be honest. I was using it for fun a couple days ago and built a team around it, and it still manages to drive opponents up the wall completely. considering Heatran has 5 x4 resistances and tons of other resistances too, Torment/Sub/Protect works spectacularly well to screw up opponents, and if you have any hazards on the other side of the field it grinds an opponent down so much. it also works against choiced Pokemon as well, as you can torment as they break a Sub to then render them useless. Lava Plume is the attacking move as it still does fair damage and the burn chance just stacks up the residual damage for your opponent. E.g. Scarfchomp comes in. you can protect to see what it locks itself into. you can torment the EQ if you're behind a sub, then continue the process undisturbed. non-choiced dragons hate this too, as with smart move selection between sub and protect, you can often dodge their only method of hitting you (tends to be EQ a lot of the time). i have a bunch of replays saved if you want evidence of how good it is, i'm hoping that you will at least consider mentioning torment. i know that it is taunt bait, but the amount of things it can come in on and force out (ferrothorn, scizor, etc) to start - ahem - tormenting (sorry) your opponent is huge. please please PLEASE mention Torment so that newer players can try this forgotten but still effective Heatran set out.
The speed EVs are to outspeed max speed Tyranitar, then 244 in HP and the rest in SpDef. interestingly, Volt Switch from typical rotom-w doesn't break the sub, and you can torment it out of Hydro Pumps, all whilst keeping the substitute up. i feel that since XY OU isless godawful weather wars and boring hyper offense slower than BW OU was, Tormentran can work very well indeed :)
Tormentran
Calm nature, Leftovers
220 Speed, 244 HP, 44 SpDef (subject to change of course, max speed Tyranitar isn't that common)
Lava Plume
Substitute
Torment
Protect
if you would like me to post some replays/some more information i'd be happy to :)
The speed EVs are to outspeed max speed Tyranitar, then 244 in HP and the rest in SpDef. interestingly, Volt Switch from typical rotom-w doesn't break the sub, and you can torment it out of Hydro Pumps, all whilst keeping the substitute up. i feel that since XY OU is
Tormentran
Calm nature, Leftovers
220 Speed, 244 HP, 44 SpDef (subject to change of course, max speed Tyranitar isn't that common)
Lava Plume
Substitute
Torment
Protect
if you would like me to post some replays/some more information i'd be happy to :)
Thanks for your great input CrashinBoomBang, and due to the overwhelming support, I think I'm going to implant your changes (as well as of course your changes obviously being solid). I've made all of your changes, and I think I've removed every mention of Ancient Power. Thanks for your input.
As for Torment Heatran, I guess I can put it in OO for now, but I'd like QCs input on the set and whether it deserves it's own set or not. I personally think the defensive set is generally better, but ya. Thanks for the suggestion n_n
As for Torment Heatran, I guess I can put it in OO for now, but I'd like QCs input on the set and whether it deserves it's own set or not. I personally think the defensive set is generally better, but ya. Thanks for the suggestion n_n
Just a point, but why has Eruption not been mentioned in the analysis? I think that it should at least go in Moves for the Specs set as Heatran forces switches against stuff like Ferrothorn and other Steel- or Grass-types not called Ludicolo and talonflame. Furthermore, at full power, Choice Specs Eruption is just rediculous. Just take a minute to look through these calcs (take note of the fact that they are on switch-in):
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 237-280 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 189-223 (53.8 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 340-402 (96.5 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 186-219 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 177-209 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While the latter is frail, it is still a resisted hit as this is on switch-in. That is just so powerful. I am especially shocked about that Sylveon calc and, while the pokemon is irrelevant, the Florges Calc is even more shocking due to its higher special bulk.252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 189-223 (53.8 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 340-402 (96.5 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 186-219 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Heatran Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 177-209 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
First of all, all your calcs don't even take Choice Specs into account.
Secondly, Eruption is situational at best as it forces you to both be at full health (otherwise it's going to be barely stronger than Overheat and eventually Fire Blast) and, most importantly, requires you to use a Quiet nature. Quiet Heatran reaches a maximum of 227 Speed and thus misses out on some very important Pokemon such as max speed Bisharp and stuff barely outspeeding it (some Rotom-W, some Lando-T). It can be used on a Trick Room team, but I don't see the appeal of having Eruption on there considering the massive support it requires compared to the more consistent options. Furthermore the calcs you provided aren't that impressive and are actually achieved with standard Choice Specs Heatran anyway.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 262-309 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 208-246 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 375-442 (105.9 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 258-306 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 204-240 (56.6 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 228-270 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 195-231 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
tl;dr Eruption is not worth it
Secondly, Eruption is situational at best as it forces you to both be at full health (otherwise it's going to be barely stronger than Overheat and eventually Fire Blast) and, most importantly, requires you to use a Quiet nature. Quiet Heatran reaches a maximum of 227 Speed and thus misses out on some very important Pokemon such as max speed Bisharp and stuff barely outspeeding it (some Rotom-W, some Lando-T). It can be used on a Trick Room team, but I don't see the appeal of having Eruption on there considering the massive support it requires compared to the more consistent options. Furthermore the calcs you provided aren't that impressive and are actually achieved with standard Choice Specs Heatran anyway.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 262-309 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 208-246 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 375-442 (105.9 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 258-306 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 204-240 (56.6 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 228-270 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 195-231 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
tl;dr Eruption is not worth it
So a few people have wanted me to slash Taunt in the 3rd move slot, which is fine with me as it offers great utility for most team, and it really takes on stall nicely, so it's a great option. I'll update now.
I've also changed a few things around, like removing the trapper set, removing the offensive set, and updated most of the sets with better move slashes. We talked loads about this on IRC, and everyone I talked to agreed with these changes.
I've also changed a few things around, like removing the trapper set, removing the offensive set, and updated most of the sets with better move slashes. We talked loads about this on IRC, and everyone I talked to agreed with these changes.
Last edited:
Back in Generation IV there was a Substitute + 3 Attacks moveset (some even used WoW or Toxic). I want to test it myself because Substitute can really hamper Mega Mawile from spamming Sucker Punch as a means to bypass Heatran.
Eruption is only fine in OO with mentions of Choice Specs and Trick Room - those are the only real viable conditions to use Eruption.
Eruption is only fine in OO with mentions of Choice Specs and Trick Room - those are the only real viable conditions to use Eruption.
Last edited:
Offensive Air Balloon Heatran was removed after some discussion in IRC. The general consensus was that offensive Heatran in general is ineffective as it is too slow, cannot deal much damage to the foe without a boosting item, and becomes a much worse check to things such as Charizard Y and Talonflame without defensive investment.
Mawile's analysis has no sets that utilize full Speed EVs. I don't know if it matters much for a spread listed in set details but you definitely don't want to base a main spread off of that.