If I use Nidoqueen in Mute Finals and win with it, it gets a C Rank y/y
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Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]
- Thread starter MMII
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The list is just a guideline, obviously people are going to use what they want and we don't really have control over that.
Also casual reminder that we should be civil to each other.
Is that a joke? Charizard is B Rank? It is garbage in Ubers Lol. Even with Sticky Web... and Giratina is C what the hell
I went ahead and dropped Charizard to C+ since people seemed to support it (and I agree).
EDIT- To get some more discussion going, I'd like to propose that Mega Medicham be added to B-/C+ rank. It needs Sticky Web support to truly shine and competes with Blaze/MMX/Mega Lucario for the spot of "absurdly powerful physical Fighting attacker" but it has enough selling points to make it worth using. It's main selling point is Pure Power, which gives it ~250 effective base Attack which is just silly. Unboosted it hits much harder than all three of the others, not needing any prior damage to OHKO stuff like Palkia and Yveltal with High Jump Kick. HJK also does like 75% min to support Arceus formes which is insane. It's higher power also gives it a somewhat easier time against Ghosts, only needing SR to guarantee a 2HKO on 248 Defense Giratina-O and 252 HP Arceus-Ghost with STAB Zen Headbutt. Something unique to Medicham though is access to Fake Out alongside Bullet Punch, which gives it room for free Mega Evolutions, Deoxys-S/A antileading, and picking off sweepers such as Xerneas, MMY, and Darkrai at about 60ish% health. Fake Out actually makes Mega Medicham better at RKing Xerneas than Mega Lucario which is kind of surprising.
Mega Medicham's main downfall is its frailty which can make getting it into battle difficult. For comparison's sake, its frailer than Darkrai, albeit Mega Medicham has SR resistance and doesn't need to hold Life Orb to have appreciable power. That being said, Medicham can survive even strong priority attacks such as Giratina-O's Shadow Sneak if necessary. Mega Medicham also takes up the Mega slot on a team and needs Sticky Web to truly shine, although base 100 Speed and priority helps somewhat in that regard. I think it has enough good qualities for at least C+.
EDIT- To get some more discussion going, I'd like to propose that Mega Medicham be added to B-/C+ rank. It needs Sticky Web support to truly shine and competes with Blaze/MMX/Mega Lucario for the spot of "absurdly powerful physical Fighting attacker" but it has enough selling points to make it worth using. It's main selling point is Pure Power, which gives it ~250 effective base Attack which is just silly. Unboosted it hits much harder than all three of the others, not needing any prior damage to OHKO stuff like Palkia and Yveltal with High Jump Kick. HJK also does like 75% min to support Arceus formes which is insane. It's higher power also gives it a somewhat easier time against Ghosts, only needing SR to guarantee a 2HKO on 248 Defense Giratina-O and 252 HP Arceus-Ghost with STAB Zen Headbutt. Something unique to Medicham though is access to Fake Out alongside Bullet Punch, which gives it room for free Mega Evolutions, Deoxys-S/A antileading, and picking off sweepers such as Xerneas, MMY, and Darkrai at about 60ish% health. Fake Out actually makes Mega Medicham better at RKing Xerneas than Mega Lucario which is kind of surprising.
Mega Medicham's main downfall is its frailty which can make getting it into battle difficult. For comparison's sake, its frailer than Darkrai, albeit Mega Medicham has SR resistance and doesn't need to hold Life Orb to have appreciable power. That being said, Medicham can survive even strong priority attacks such as Giratina-O's Shadow Sneak if necessary. Mega Medicham also takes up the Mega slot on a team and needs Sticky Web to truly shine, although base 100 Speed and priority helps somewhat in that regard. I think it has enough good qualities for at least C+.
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C+ imo
And please drop Gyarados. It has literally no usage
And please drop Gyarados. It has literally no usage
I don't see why people are talking about the decline of scarf Palkia when bringing up why DD Ray is better- scarfkia was already utter garbage last generation, it's the decline of scarf Genesect and Terrakion that makes it better.
I wanna discuss Medicham but I haven't tested enough so I will get back to it. I don't like the particular notion of "being good with sticky web support" since sticky web is very match up reliant and often not a strategy that is worth it unless your build is VERY carefully planned out and even then you will have trouble actually fitting checks to major metagame threats etc. This is my stance on the archetype of sticky webs, which hasn't got much to do with whether Medicham is good or not, but I don't particularly like when a threat is good due to such a specific role on a specific archetype of team (viability decreases when you are using a mon that is harder to fit in on general builds). However, I do like the free mega-evolution you get via Fake Out, and Bullet Punch is useful as always.
Gyarados still has value as it is a legit Blaziken check, and those are rare.
Giratina in C is almost too good for it but whatever people seem to like it.
I wanna discuss Medicham but I haven't tested enough so I will get back to it. I don't like the particular notion of "being good with sticky web support" since sticky web is very match up reliant and often not a strategy that is worth it unless your build is VERY carefully planned out and even then you will have trouble actually fitting checks to major metagame threats etc. This is my stance on the archetype of sticky webs, which hasn't got much to do with whether Medicham is good or not, but I don't particularly like when a threat is good due to such a specific role on a specific archetype of team (viability decreases when you are using a mon that is harder to fit in on general builds). However, I do like the free mega-evolution you get via Fake Out, and Bullet Punch is useful as always.
Gyarados still has value as it is a legit Blaziken check, and those are rare.
Giratina in C is almost too good for it but whatever people seem to like it.
Yeah that's partially why I think C+ is a better fit since it really likes having Web for things like support Arceus formes. It can work without it with base 100 Speed and dual priority but Web is where it really shines imo.
A mon that can revenge GeoXern and weakened Darkrai is nice to have on a Web team though. It can't check EKiller and Mega Khan like Mega Lucario can, but its a better Xern check and picks off stuff like Darkrai and Protect Blaziken much more easily. Not being able to check EKiller though is admittedly a pretty big downer and it pretty much forces you to run something like Dialga to not get owned by it.
I'd like to nominate Arceus-Ghost for S.
Arceus-Ghost is one of rare offensive check for Ekiller, Mewtwos, and Blaziken. Indeed, it checks the top 3 threats for any team in ubers. Such feat is accomplished by absolutely nothing else.
Also, the ghost typing is amazing. It escapes from shadow tag and beats gengar if it doesn't carry shadow ball (sball is rare in tour play nowadays). It laughs at goth and capitalizes on opponent's attempt to double on supportarc. I mean, you can defog with ghostceus if you want to. And, ghostceus is possibly the most reliable defogger versus sticky barring giratina-o and scizor (i guess?). The typing allows it to act as a spinblocker, which can make huge difference versus teams that rely on spinning for hazard removal.
It's hard to not think ghostceus as a titan. If you don't stop it from setting up, then it WILL sweep you unless you have darks to stop it. And unfortunately, that's pretty much the only flaw that ghostceus has. As a support mon, it's incredible as a defogger and spinblocker in one. Since, you can easily remove the hazards and then put it back while punishing your opponent if he tries to spin your hazard away.
Here's S criteria and how ghostceus achieves them:
"The titans of the game." Explained above (yes)
"They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities." Set up sweeper, defogging, spinblocking, check many threats, and huge movepool. (yes)
"Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends." See above (yes)
"There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon." Besides the weakness to dark, which it can bypass with coverage moves if necessary (focus blast and thunder). There's very little reason to not use ghostceus, and it should be one of the first arc forme to consider for teambuilding. (yes)
"They barely require support, if any, from the team and have immense utility to offer." See above (yes)
I'm not even covering all of possible sets for ghostceus. And, I wouldn't doubt that new sets will emerge for ghostceus in near future.
e: If people disagree with S for ghostceus, then A+ is OK for it. But, A is just too low for ghostceus lol.
Arceus-Ghost is one of rare offensive check for Ekiller, Mewtwos, and Blaziken. Indeed, it checks the top 3 threats for any team in ubers. Such feat is accomplished by absolutely nothing else.
Also, the ghost typing is amazing. It escapes from shadow tag and beats gengar if it doesn't carry shadow ball (sball is rare in tour play nowadays). It laughs at goth and capitalizes on opponent's attempt to double on supportarc. I mean, you can defog with ghostceus if you want to. And, ghostceus is possibly the most reliable defogger versus sticky barring giratina-o and scizor (i guess?). The typing allows it to act as a spinblocker, which can make huge difference versus teams that rely on spinning for hazard removal.
It's hard to not think ghostceus as a titan. If you don't stop it from setting up, then it WILL sweep you unless you have darks to stop it. And unfortunately, that's pretty much the only flaw that ghostceus has. As a support mon, it's incredible as a defogger and spinblocker in one. Since, you can easily remove the hazards and then put it back while punishing your opponent if he tries to spin your hazard away.
Here's S criteria and how ghostceus achieves them:
"The titans of the game." Explained above (yes)
"They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities." Set up sweeper, defogging, spinblocking, check many threats, and huge movepool. (yes)
"Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends." See above (yes)
"There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon." Besides the weakness to dark, which it can bypass with coverage moves if necessary (focus blast and thunder). There's very little reason to not use ghostceus, and it should be one of the first arc forme to consider for teambuilding. (yes)
"They barely require support, if any, from the team and have immense utility to offer." See above (yes)
I'm not even covering all of possible sets for ghostceus. And, I wouldn't doubt that new sets will emerge for ghostceus in near future.
e: If people disagree with S for ghostceus, then A+ is OK for it. But, A is just too low for ghostceus lol.
After using it for a while today and yesterday, I think Salamence deserves a spot on the bottom of mid C or in C- (D would be a slight stretch but I wouldn't disagree):
I say this because it has lost most of its revenge killing role and mid game sweeping role because of Will-O-Wisp Supportceus formes and Fairies making it quite a bit more difficult to lock itself into Outrage and begin its Moxie tantrum. Because of how bulky this format has gotten, it must run the inaccurate Dragon Rush over the pitifully weak Dragon Claw in order to secure solid revenge kills, particularly against Bulky Band Ho-Oh, Zekrom, and Palkia, and it still has to compete with Scarf Zekrom who has more immediate power and better bulk as well as an extremely potent secondary STAB. Salamence is still a terrifying cleaner though. It can immediately start attacking and with its above average Speed, for a scarfer, and will begin to boost its already usable Attack every time it picks up a KO. Salamence isn't exactly frail either, so priority (outside of the extremely rare Ice Shard) is not a very reliable way to stop its tantrum even if it has swapped into Stealth Rock.
It can only do this with proper team support though, and supporting Salamence isn't hard but it isn't easy either. Salamence requires a reliable Fairy-type swatter and, like any team, a Geomancy Xerneas check or two although fulfilling both of these requirements with one team slot isn't impossible by any means. Salamence also needs entry hazard support in order to force out Support Arceus formes in order to have them weakened or removed by a team mate. This basically fits Salamence onto offensively inclined teams only but it will do its best work on a Mega Gengar hyper offense team. A powerful wall breaker will support Salamence further and a few of these, like Choice Band Ho-Oh, can also fulfill some of the anti Fairy-type roles that Salamence needs. A way to lure out Fairy-types is also recommended but isn't needed as Salamence itself is big Fairy bait. Rapid Spin / Defog helps but it isn't needed (despite the rocks weakness) as Salamence should only come in once or twice per battle.
Salamence can only manage to separate itself from being an inferior Zekrom with only two qualities, however. Its superior Speed and Moxie are what give it a slight edge over Zekrom in some areas but not many. It can actually KO other Scarf Zekrom (after rocks) without the risk of a speed tie ruining offensive momentum and robbing you of a potential win condition. As far as the role of cleaner goes, both Zekrom and Salamence have their boons. Zekrom's secondary STAB in Bolt Strike allows it to clean when weakened Fairy-Types are still present but it has a quite frustrating miss chance and has another immunity against it. Salamence can only clean when Fairy-types are still around in rare situations where said Fairy and the rest of the team is in killing range of an un-STAB Earthquake. Salamence has a significant amount of power over Zekrom after a Moxie boost though, and switching into Salamence when your Fairy is gone is not an easy task without giving it a Moxie boost in the process. This boost from Moxie allows Salamence to reliably 2HKO 248 HP / 164 Def Arceus formes not named Arceus-Steel or Arceus-Fairy which is something Zekrom can only dream of doing without the aid of Stealth Rock or the handicap of Bolt Strikes accuracy. The base 100 Speed that Salamence possesses allows it to outspeed, and potentially KO late game, every other relevant Scarfer in the tier bar the rare Scarf Skymin and Darkrai. I personally think the fact that it isn't bothered by most Scarfers HUGE when attempting to clean a game with it.
I hope this is enough evidence to at least earn Salamence a spot on the list; it seemed to fit the lesser C description from what I have seen while playing with it so I thought I would at least try to get it a spot there.
I say this because it has lost most of its revenge killing role and mid game sweeping role because of Will-O-Wisp Supportceus formes and Fairies making it quite a bit more difficult to lock itself into Outrage and begin its Moxie tantrum. Because of how bulky this format has gotten, it must run the inaccurate Dragon Rush over the pitifully weak Dragon Claw in order to secure solid revenge kills, particularly against Bulky Band Ho-Oh, Zekrom, and Palkia, and it still has to compete with Scarf Zekrom who has more immediate power and better bulk as well as an extremely potent secondary STAB. Salamence is still a terrifying cleaner though. It can immediately start attacking and with its above average Speed, for a scarfer, and will begin to boost its already usable Attack every time it picks up a KO. Salamence isn't exactly frail either, so priority (outside of the extremely rare Ice Shard) is not a very reliable way to stop its tantrum even if it has swapped into Stealth Rock.
It can only do this with proper team support though, and supporting Salamence isn't hard but it isn't easy either. Salamence requires a reliable Fairy-type swatter and, like any team, a Geomancy Xerneas check or two although fulfilling both of these requirements with one team slot isn't impossible by any means. Salamence also needs entry hazard support in order to force out Support Arceus formes in order to have them weakened or removed by a team mate. This basically fits Salamence onto offensively inclined teams only but it will do its best work on a Mega Gengar hyper offense team. A powerful wall breaker will support Salamence further and a few of these, like Choice Band Ho-Oh, can also fulfill some of the anti Fairy-type roles that Salamence needs. A way to lure out Fairy-types is also recommended but isn't needed as Salamence itself is big Fairy bait. Rapid Spin / Defog helps but it isn't needed (despite the rocks weakness) as Salamence should only come in once or twice per battle.
Salamence can only manage to separate itself from being an inferior Zekrom with only two qualities, however. Its superior Speed and Moxie are what give it a slight edge over Zekrom in some areas but not many. It can actually KO other Scarf Zekrom (after rocks) without the risk of a speed tie ruining offensive momentum and robbing you of a potential win condition. As far as the role of cleaner goes, both Zekrom and Salamence have their boons. Zekrom's secondary STAB in Bolt Strike allows it to clean when weakened Fairy-Types are still present but it has a quite frustrating miss chance and has another immunity against it. Salamence can only clean when Fairy-types are still around in rare situations where said Fairy and the rest of the team is in killing range of an un-STAB Earthquake. Salamence has a significant amount of power over Zekrom after a Moxie boost though, and switching into Salamence when your Fairy is gone is not an easy task without giving it a Moxie boost in the process. This boost from Moxie allows Salamence to reliably 2HKO 248 HP / 164 Def Arceus formes not named Arceus-Steel or Arceus-Fairy which is something Zekrom can only dream of doing without the aid of Stealth Rock or the handicap of Bolt Strikes accuracy. The base 100 Speed that Salamence possesses allows it to outspeed, and potentially KO late game, every other relevant Scarfer in the tier bar the rare Scarf Skymin and Darkrai. I personally think the fact that it isn't bothered by most Scarfers HUGE when attempting to clean a game with it.
I hope this is enough evidence to at least earn Salamence a spot on the list; it seemed to fit the lesser C description from what I have seen while playing with it so I thought I would at least try to get it a spot there.
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
But but but PHYSICALLY DEFENSIVE SALAMANCE
jk Zekrom/Amphabulous totally outclass it in that role, with much better additional flying resist and non-reliance on intimidate.
jk Zekrom/Amphabulous totally outclass it in that role, with much better additional flying resist and non-reliance on intimidate.
So why should I use mence over rayquaza again? It's weaker, frailer, has inferior coverage options, no vcreate, and no swords dance. Moxie is shit. Intimidate is shit when every single fucking physical attacker doesn't fear mence and is better fulfilled by landoge which is already utter garbage. 100 base speed is not a boon over 95 considering it fails to beat palkia reliably and outright loses to base 99 mons.
Also if you're in a situation where moxie mence sweep, odds are krom or hell even garchomp could achieve a similar if not superior feat.
Also if you're in a situation where moxie mence sweep, odds are krom or hell even garchomp could achieve a similar if not superior feat.
RIP Mence
Dragonceus is pretty good these days, when I used it. Just be sure to trap or kill Xerneas and Keys
Dragonceus is pretty good these days, when I used it. Just be sure to trap or kill Xerneas and Keys
Okay I made a few changes:
- Smeargle has been moved down to C+ rank
- Shuckle has been added to C+ rank
- Rayquaza has been moved up to B+ rank
- Removed Slowking (it was only used in like one SPL match and got owned soooo...)
- Added Stunfisk to E-Rank (might as well have something in there to justify it)
Wait why put Stunfisk in there. Literally nobody uses Stunfisk in ubers so why not put in something like Pikachu who does get usage in ubers.
He is called Sweep, it's an in-joke
Sub CM destroys Sticky Web. Arceus is the best. Arceus is a god. Well imo it needs at least A+. I'd Say its Retro old but gold. Since in bw2 Times it swept anybody. I'd just wait Till the next tour on saturday is played and if Ghostceus rules the Tour we could Talk about S Rank. (iPhone grammar sry)
I haven't seen this yet, but I am suggesting C-Rank for Ditto.
This thing is a really decent revenge killer and is capable of cleaning up teams lategame, and it has the added bonus of negating Sticky Web as Imposter activates after slowing Ditto down. However, it's basically forced to use a scarf (unless you can SOMEHOW, OUT OF YOUR ASS bluff it lol) and its abysmal HP stat retained, which makes it a really huge liability at times.
Any other thoughts about Ditto? I think it is certainly a viable option in Ubers but there is definitely a huge opportunity cost to it and its effectiveness in a battle is extremely situational.
This thing is a really decent revenge killer and is capable of cleaning up teams lategame, and it has the added bonus of negating Sticky Web as Imposter activates after slowing Ditto down. However, it's basically forced to use a scarf (unless you can SOMEHOW, OUT OF YOUR ASS bluff it lol) and its abysmal HP stat retained, which makes it a really huge liability at times.
Any other thoughts about Ditto? I think it is certainly a viable option in Ubers but there is definitely a huge opportunity cost to it and its effectiveness in a battle is extremely situational.
Ditto @ C-Rank sounds about right, I'm surprised it wasn't already listed.
Ya, C-Rank for Ditto is fine for now. I've used it for a while and it can be incredible useful, and useless. Mostly it just keeps set up sweepers at bay leaving your team in either a position to wall them or take them down with your own set up sweepers. Not a great mon, but a useful one on certain teams.
I'm sorry, I'm new to the forums and want to post a thread, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how. Can someone please tell me?
That disrespect on my man Stunfisk... I'm telling you he's a threat.
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
Because it's better?
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