I'm waiting on it right now because both things you mentioned are in the process of being suspect tested, scarf becomes way less viable if both of those things are gone.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Victini (QC 4/4) (GP 0/2)
- Thread starter thedeafelectrician
- Start date
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
imo, Final Gambit deserves a mention outside OO. IF youre fighting a team with a bulky ground + fire resist, or bulky megazard X, or protect users + heatran, or what have you Band Victini really cant do much work..
Final Gambit lets you fodder yourself early game nearly guaranteeing a kill, even with 4/0 you dont big chunks to Heatran or whatever. The scarf set is pretty poor against stall, final gambit or trick in the last slot can patch that up
Final Gambit lets you fodder yourself early game nearly guaranteeing a kill, even with 4/0 you dont big chunks to Heatran or whatever. The scarf set is pretty poor against stall, final gambit or trick in the last slot can patch that up
All right, so the new strategy dex is going up very soon and there are several Pokemon, including this one, that do not currently have completed analyses. thedeafelectrician, if you could please try to make this look presentable within the next day, that would be helpful. Please contact user darkie once you've made it look presentable (by that I mean "acceptable to be on-site") and refer to and update this pirate pad: https://www.piratepad.ca/p/dex_skeletons
This needs to be done by tomorrow afternoon (GMT -6), so make sure you get it done! If you can't make it look presentable in the next day, please say so in the pirate pad so someone else can make a quick skeleton of it. Thanks!
This needs to be done by tomorrow afternoon (GMT -6), so make sure you get it done! If you can't make it look presentable in the next day, please say so in the pirate pad so someone else can make a quick skeleton of it. Thanks!
Actually, I think that spring break next week should give me the window I need. What should I do with scarf? I personally think it's a bit underwhelming, and with genesect and mega-lucario gone it loses a lot of what made it good. The thread has been kind of split so far, I think the banning of those two pushes into no territory but I'm not opposed to getting overruled.
I'll update the pirate pad too, but I will need someone to make a quick skeleton for me
I'll update the pirate pad too, but I will need someone to make a quick skeleton for me
Last edited:
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
Overview
This is is fine. If youre going to mention weather if at all mention how obscure rain is as a playstyle, and a quick word about how Victini is cool on sun teams is enough. Also, mention how 100/100/100 bulk is pretty solid for an offensive poke.
Wall Breaker Set
Fine, however one of Victini's greatest counters is Heatran as it prevents Victini from doing any damage at all without ungodly predicting skills. Other counters like Tyranitar might not mind a CB, but they can get popped for good damage with U-turn or finished off when weakened with a safe V-create. Defensive Heatran definitely doesnt like CB. Good job that you didnt mention that sub LO set I came up with, because in reality it's just too inflexible and is purposed to beat too specific of a threat to Victini.
The first tip is questionable when team preview exists. It's not hard to distinguish when its a good idea to V-create or U-turn. If the opponent has something that prevents V-create from doing good damage, such as Heatran, Tyranitar, and excessively bulky resists like, say, Slowbro then it should be advisable to use a coverage move or U-turn, your opponent has little to gain from such an early game predicting and staying and potentially losing an important poke to V-create. If the opponent has only a decent answer to V-create such as Rotom, or Landorus-T blasting them with V-create is more beneficial than switch advantage as you do your Job wall breaking even if you dont get a kill. Always u-turning early doesnt seem like the right choice.
As for team options, mention some more hazards clearers. SKarmory and MEga Blastoise are mentioned. Skarm is fine, Mega Blast is kinda meh, not the first thing I'd choose. Latis have shit synergy with Victini they further exacerbate team weaknesses, Scizor is bretty cool, especially Mega, it can deal with some Pokemon that give victini trouble like Ttar. People dont use that set enough. Mandibuzz and Zapdos are also noteworthy to mention though neither much care for T-tar ~_~. Hp fighting Latios is very cool, it can Lure and snipe Ttar/Bisharp pretty well, and it defogs, though I think im getting ahead of myself here. Ninetales are is arse outside full sun teams, if youre going to mention it dont do it in the same sentence as Zard Y but rather something along the lines of "Victini is a very impressive wall breaker on dedicated Sun teams, alongside Ninetales and Dugtrio for support Victini makes short work of the defensive metagame". Also for Duggy mention it traps Zard X, Victini's greatest Counter.
Scarf Set
Im.. not sure how good this is now that Gene and Luke are Dead as Dreams. I think I'd like to see one for now though. It forces a 50/50 with pursuit Bisharp / Scizor / Aegis at -1 which means it isnt super vulnerable to pursuit, in my eyes thats acceptable. Tyranitar is a hgue problem ill admit, but you can predict with U-turn or take advantage of a ttar choice locked into Pursuit.
Name: V for reVenge Killer
move 1: V-Create
move 2: Bolt Strike / Trick
move 3: Final Gambit
move 4: U-Turn
ability: Victory Star
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
V-create still hits pretty damn hard making it a cool revenge killer / scarf user, it can get a kill basically every time it comes in against offense, and easily pops fast but frail threats like Greninja (depending on its type), or Thundurus. FInal Gambit might seem dumb as a main slash but I promise it isnt. Victini cant revenge kill Dragonite, Charizard X, or Mega Tyranitar without it, and with it, it can. It sucks becuase you have to keep Victini totally healthy to do this, or damage the opponent on set up pretty bad, but if you can do this then Victini's revenge killing ability is on par with quite a few other scarfers in XY OU. Final Gambit is also cool against stall because Victini is very easy to wall for them, and you can pop something for a huge chunk and gain switch advantage. Common answers like Heatran and Quagsire for stall can be taken out of the equation by controlling momentum to prevent healing after Final Gambit has done its work. U-turn is necessary as a scarfer to pick off weakened stuff and not lose momentum! Readers must know when to use Final Gambit (against +1 mega ttar or full stall) and not to (when the opponent has something youre needed to revenge kill later like Scizor or Greninja) so detail this. The choice between Bolt Strike and Trick is a choice between matchup vs offense or defense. Tricking your scarf away is really only a good idea against full stall because the point of a scarfer is to bring speed to your team, however against stall it is quite beneficial and should be done as early in the game as possible for a number of reasons, one being that Zard X, a good stall mega is threatened by Bolt Strike early game, so an opponent is unlikely to switch this in while Quagsire or Hippowdon are more safe bets for stall so you can be successful. Trick can also be useful to stop bulky boosters like CM clefable or Crocune in their tracks as well it can totally ruin Bisharp's day if you give it a scarf as it sucker punches. Bolt Strike provides you with useful coverage and although its weak, offensive weaknesses to it like Keldeo, Base Greninja, Azumarill, or Charizard are obviously way easier to take on with this.
In team options, take a look at the relevant pokemon in XY OU that can take advantage of Scarf Victini, basically any Fire-resist and offer teammates to mitigate that. For example V-create locked Victini is total set up bait for Charizard X, Belly Jet Azu and a lot more. Ways to mitigate this are important.
All Out Special Attacker
This set looks fine, however mention Grass Knot somewhere in moves to snipe Quagsire/Gastrodon which are a bother otherwise. Hp Ground is better against Heatran due to accuracy and hits charizard X, not sure if thats worth mentioning though. In Expert Belt's details mention that it can bluff a choice item, even if youre not physical. In BLue Flare's details mention how Fire Blast was nerfed to 110 BP but BLue Fire remains at 130 BP so it actually has a pretty big power boost over it.
Team options need a little, M-Blast is pretty obscure, and the ninetales mention needs to be changed to "solid on a sun team". ALso, mention Zard X as a teammate, it's pretty cool because like you said Special Victini can lure in physically defensive stuff and hit them for good damage. Zard X takes advantage of that quite well. Imagine that your opponent's best Zard X check is physically defensive Hippowdon and it gets blasted with Blue Flare, or Azuumarill with Thunder. Lucario is dead so remove that. Change Tyrantrum to Tyranitar, Tyrantrum couldnt be anymore irrelevant.
Trick Room Sweeper
Call it that. Other than that take the above into consideration for this set, it looks pretty solid otherwise.
Other Options
Take out that which was upgraded to "moves" or a slash on a set. Add some useless offensive options like DAzzling Gleam, or Shadow Ball here too.
Check and Counters
Look fine but add Charizard X, mention all pursuit users and how they can be a bother in one way or another. Also super effective priority like Mawile's Sucker Punch and Azumarill's Aqua Jet.
Makes these changes and I will stamp this bad boy.
This is is fine. If youre going to mention weather if at all mention how obscure rain is as a playstyle, and a quick word about how Victini is cool on sun teams is enough. Also, mention how 100/100/100 bulk is pretty solid for an offensive poke.
Wall Breaker Set
Fine, however one of Victini's greatest counters is Heatran as it prevents Victini from doing any damage at all without ungodly predicting skills. Other counters like Tyranitar might not mind a CB, but they can get popped for good damage with U-turn or finished off when weakened with a safe V-create. Defensive Heatran definitely doesnt like CB. Good job that you didnt mention that sub LO set I came up with, because in reality it's just too inflexible and is purposed to beat too specific of a threat to Victini.
The first tip is questionable when team preview exists. It's not hard to distinguish when its a good idea to V-create or U-turn. If the opponent has something that prevents V-create from doing good damage, such as Heatran, Tyranitar, and excessively bulky resists like, say, Slowbro then it should be advisable to use a coverage move or U-turn, your opponent has little to gain from such an early game predicting and staying and potentially losing an important poke to V-create. If the opponent has only a decent answer to V-create such as Rotom, or Landorus-T blasting them with V-create is more beneficial than switch advantage as you do your Job wall breaking even if you dont get a kill. Always u-turning early doesnt seem like the right choice.
As for team options, mention some more hazards clearers. SKarmory and MEga Blastoise are mentioned. Skarm is fine, Mega Blast is kinda meh, not the first thing I'd choose. Latis have shit synergy with Victini they further exacerbate team weaknesses, Scizor is bretty cool, especially Mega, it can deal with some Pokemon that give victini trouble like Ttar. People dont use that set enough. Mandibuzz and Zapdos are also noteworthy to mention though neither much care for T-tar ~_~. Hp fighting Latios is very cool, it can Lure and snipe Ttar/Bisharp pretty well, and it defogs, though I think im getting ahead of myself here. Ninetales are is arse outside full sun teams, if youre going to mention it dont do it in the same sentence as Zard Y but rather something along the lines of "Victini is a very impressive wall breaker on dedicated Sun teams, alongside Ninetales and Dugtrio for support Victini makes short work of the defensive metagame". Also for Duggy mention it traps Zard X, Victini's greatest Counter.
Scarf Set
Im.. not sure how good this is now that Gene and Luke are Dead as Dreams. I think I'd like to see one for now though. It forces a 50/50 with pursuit Bisharp / Scizor / Aegis at -1 which means it isnt super vulnerable to pursuit, in my eyes thats acceptable. Tyranitar is a hgue problem ill admit, but you can predict with U-turn or take advantage of a ttar choice locked into Pursuit.
Name: V for reVenge Killer
move 1: V-Create
move 2: Bolt Strike / Trick
move 3: Final Gambit
move 4: U-Turn
ability: Victory Star
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
V-create still hits pretty damn hard making it a cool revenge killer / scarf user, it can get a kill basically every time it comes in against offense, and easily pops fast but frail threats like Greninja (depending on its type), or Thundurus. FInal Gambit might seem dumb as a main slash but I promise it isnt. Victini cant revenge kill Dragonite, Charizard X, or Mega Tyranitar without it, and with it, it can. It sucks becuase you have to keep Victini totally healthy to do this, or damage the opponent on set up pretty bad, but if you can do this then Victini's revenge killing ability is on par with quite a few other scarfers in XY OU. Final Gambit is also cool against stall because Victini is very easy to wall for them, and you can pop something for a huge chunk and gain switch advantage. Common answers like Heatran and Quagsire for stall can be taken out of the equation by controlling momentum to prevent healing after Final Gambit has done its work. U-turn is necessary as a scarfer to pick off weakened stuff and not lose momentum! Readers must know when to use Final Gambit (against +1 mega ttar or full stall) and not to (when the opponent has something youre needed to revenge kill later like Scizor or Greninja) so detail this. The choice between Bolt Strike and Trick is a choice between matchup vs offense or defense. Tricking your scarf away is really only a good idea against full stall because the point of a scarfer is to bring speed to your team, however against stall it is quite beneficial and should be done as early in the game as possible for a number of reasons, one being that Zard X, a good stall mega is threatened by Bolt Strike early game, so an opponent is unlikely to switch this in while Quagsire or Hippowdon are more safe bets for stall so you can be successful. Trick can also be useful to stop bulky boosters like CM clefable or Crocune in their tracks as well it can totally ruin Bisharp's day if you give it a scarf as it sucker punches. Bolt Strike provides you with useful coverage and although its weak, offensive weaknesses to it like Keldeo, Base Greninja, Azumarill, or Charizard are obviously way easier to take on with this.
In team options, take a look at the relevant pokemon in XY OU that can take advantage of Scarf Victini, basically any Fire-resist and offer teammates to mitigate that. For example V-create locked Victini is total set up bait for Charizard X, Belly Jet Azu and a lot more. Ways to mitigate this are important.
All Out Special Attacker
This set looks fine, however mention Grass Knot somewhere in moves to snipe Quagsire/Gastrodon which are a bother otherwise. Hp Ground is better against Heatran due to accuracy and hits charizard X, not sure if thats worth mentioning though. In Expert Belt's details mention that it can bluff a choice item, even if youre not physical. In BLue Flare's details mention how Fire Blast was nerfed to 110 BP but BLue Fire remains at 130 BP so it actually has a pretty big power boost over it.
Team options need a little, M-Blast is pretty obscure, and the ninetales mention needs to be changed to "solid on a sun team". ALso, mention Zard X as a teammate, it's pretty cool because like you said Special Victini can lure in physically defensive stuff and hit them for good damage. Zard X takes advantage of that quite well. Imagine that your opponent's best Zard X check is physically defensive Hippowdon and it gets blasted with Blue Flare, or Azuumarill with Thunder. Lucario is dead so remove that. Change Tyrantrum to Tyranitar, Tyrantrum couldnt be anymore irrelevant.
Trick Room Sweeper
Call it that. Other than that take the above into consideration for this set, it looks pretty solid otherwise.
Other Options
Take out that which was upgraded to "moves" or a slash on a set. Add some useless offensive options like DAzzling Gleam, or Shadow Ball here too.
Check and Counters
Look fine but add Charizard X, mention all pursuit users and how they can be a bother in one way or another. Also super effective priority like Mawile's Sucker Punch and Azumarill's Aqua Jet.
Makes these changes and I will stamp this bad boy.
Last edited:
Got half done, I'll finish wednesday after vacation, this is more of a yes I'm still alive and doing this post.
EDIT: And it's updated!
EDIT: And it's updated!
Last edited:
I would replace this with Pokemon that are simply faster (not Salamence since it ties with Victini) and can threaten it with Earthqake.
- Garchomp
- Landorus-Incarnate
- Starmie can threaten with STAB Hydro Pump
- Mega Aerodactyl with STAB Stone Edge
- Keldeo (STAB Scald / Hydro Pump)
etc etc.
Pretty much mention that Victini's mediocre Speed leaves it prone to being revenge killed by many Pokemon.
Also mention that mons such as Bisharp can put Victini in a bind - though STAB V-Create deters such a situation, STAB Sucker Punch and STAB Pursuit really do put pressure on what to do against Bisharp. Mega Charizard X can also take on physical Victini's movepool well - even its special one has awkward times thanks to Zard X's typing.
For the Trick Room sweeper set, you say that it's a "standalone sweeper" but this is not necessarily true. Trick Room Victini is an excellent choice for Trick Room teams, being both a setter and a great sweeper to conserve teamslots. Thus, I'd like to see you add more Trick Room teammates to this, like Porygon2, Reuniclus, etc..
I would also slash Life Orb in that set next to Flame Plate. Recoil can suck, but the consistent boost to all of your moves is really nice.
Caution the user on including Dugtrio in teammates. Yes, it provides Victini valuable support, but it is downright awful in Trick Room.
Format your checks and counters section correctly (e.g. **Check or counter**: description).
Make the changes that Colonel M suggested above.
Do all of that and consider this QC 2/4
I would also slash Life Orb in that set next to Flame Plate. Recoil can suck, but the consistent boost to all of your moves is really nice.
Caution the user on including Dugtrio in teammates. Yes, it provides Victini valuable support, but it is downright awful in Trick Room.
Format your checks and counters section correctly (e.g. **Check or counter**: description).
Make the changes that Colonel M suggested above.
Do all of that and consider this QC 2/4
Last edited:
MCBarrett
i love it when you call me big hoppa
I think on the scarf set Zen Headbutt should be slashed with Final Gambit. Not only does Zen Headbutt give another STAB option and hit some notable threats with a scarf such as Keldeo, Gengar and Terrakion but it also gives you a usable coverage move late game as more than likely Victini won't be at full health, meaning Final Gambit becomes quite useless to have. Also allows Victini to hit Char-X pretty hard w/o having to worry about keeping its HP up.
Did all the changes, nice to finally be off 0
Fantastic, tested some sets for a while, and no objections.
QC 3/4
QC 3/4
HypnoEmpire
Yokatta...
I posted this in another thread, but I can just transfer it over to here.
I have used this set myself and it seemed to work out very well. I think it's a bit more team dependent, as you may not really need Sunny Day or Trick Room, but I think this set only really works because it's unexpected. This probably doesn't deserve a set on its own, but I think it can at least get a mention in Other Options. Just some food for thought.
Just wanna say I'm still working on this, so many sets to writeup lol
7 pages man, but finally written up
On the Choice band set I think Jolly should be the primary option. Speed tying with base 100s and outspeeding many defensive pokémon after 1 V-Create or more is just too important, also, I don't think Adamant will give many more KOs.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
for people saying heatran counters CB without predicting w/ brick break, bolt strike after rocks 2hkos-
also important update
not QC but imo I've used this set and it's almost as good as choice band or equally effective:
here's a team to test it with: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=T3J0a50e
it can also really work on balance however I don't play offense so I can't judge on that, here's the set:
Name: Stall Breaker
move 1: V-Create
move 2: Will-O-Wisp
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Glaciate / Zen Headbutt
ability: Victory Star
item: Leftovers / Twisted Spoon
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 160 HP / 96 Spe OR 252 Atk / 240 HP / 16 Spe
the first spread lets you outspeed choice banded dragonite and burn it then 2hko it with twisted spoon zen headbutt + rocks + burn or just 2hko it with glaciate while the second spread lets you outspeed adamant bisharp and burn it while being able to take 2 adamant mega medicham HJKs.
important: don't use zen headbutt without twisted spoon, as the only reason it's there is to 2hko bulky char X w/ rocks while still 2hkoing dd dragonite. however glaciate can 2hko cbbnite after burn + rocks which really helps vs stall, and lets you use lefties, so pick your poison.
What this set does:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-133019321
also important update
not QC but imo I've used this set and it's almost as good as choice band or equally effective:
here's a team to test it with: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=T3J0a50e
it can also really work on balance however I don't play offense so I can't judge on that, here's the set:
Name: Stall Breaker
move 1: V-Create
move 2: Will-O-Wisp
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Glaciate / Zen Headbutt
ability: Victory Star
item: Leftovers / Twisted Spoon
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 160 HP / 96 Spe OR 252 Atk / 240 HP / 16 Spe
the first spread lets you outspeed choice banded dragonite and burn it then 2hko it with twisted spoon zen headbutt + rocks + burn or just 2hko it with glaciate while the second spread lets you outspeed adamant bisharp and burn it while being able to take 2 adamant mega medicham HJKs.
important: don't use zen headbutt without twisted spoon, as the only reason it's there is to 2hko bulky char X w/ rocks while still 2hkoing dd dragonite. however glaciate can 2hko cbbnite after burn + rocks which really helps vs stall, and lets you use lefties, so pick your poison.
What this set does:
- breaks stall REALLY hard and breks lots of walls on balance/offense due to burning all of it's counters with WoW + Taunt (quagsire, hippo, lando-t)
- laughs at chansey
- counters char Y, mega gardevoir, and mega medicham which is EXTREMELY important on stall
- counters non knock off SD mmawile (iron head, fire fang) pretty damn well
- outspeed and burns potential pursuiters to make switching out easier
- can use glaciate to slow down stuff to burn if you choose glaciate
- taunt really puts a lot of pressure on stall and makes it so that defensive heatran really can't do anything so if you want to force switchins for example with : taunt --> cb terrak --> victini with rocks up you can wear down heatran and pressure the team and pressure venutran
- once again, this dude is a godsend to stall since it counters so much good wallbreakers, include itself! haha
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-133019321
Last edited:
It makes me sad to see that other guy using lefties on Victini because coincidentally CB V-Create would have cleanly KOed Gliscor. I don't personally have a ton of experience with stall, but I do know that it isn't a particularly popular playstyle and a set that goes out of it's way to beat other stall teams isn't super necessary. I just feel like that set is trying to do way too many different things at once. It's also basically still countered by heatran / char-x, and zen headbutt cleanly 2hkos on char-x on the CB set anyway.
Wisp is viable on almost all of it's sets (def not trick room), it's just kinda hard to fit in as a main slash.
Wisp is viable on almost all of it's sets (def not trick room), it's just kinda hard to fit in as a main slash.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
hello? lmao this is so ignorant I have to go /more/ in depth
I'm sorry to say this but... could you please not call people ignorant like that? It's not very nice to say that, and it just makes you come off like a jerk :c If you disagree with someone's opinion that's ok, but saying it that way doesn't help your case at all, especially when you're using such a weird Victini set.
Just please try to be nicer when you respond to things like that, ok? c: This site is all about discussing sets and having fun while we do it, and that kind attitude kind of ruins the fun. :[
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
yeah sorry, that was way out of line for me :(.
Anyways this is slightly ignorant anyways, I know it sounds rude, but I have to be honest.
"a set that goes out of it's way to beat other stall teams isn't super necessary"
ok QC guys we better revamp Mew, Taunt Mgarde, CM/Knock-Off Landorus and the others!1! Anyways I find this to be very untrue. Stall is an extremely effective playstyle and judging it's worth off of ladder play (lol? the ladder sucks, the only good ladder players I know are top 8 or people that double as tour players) is just completely frustrating to me as a stall player. Anyways lets get onto the other claims:
"It makes me sad to see that other guy using lefties on Victini because CB V-create koed Gliscor"
while it's true it might have OHKOd, I knew he was taunt, and if I knew he wasn't taunt, all I would have to do is switch out, the problem with switching things like Quagsire into this set is Will-o-Wisp and Taunt which prevent recovery and prevent EQ from doing consistent damage. The Quagsire variant of this team can switch into practically every offensive threat in OU safely but has less consistency because Quagsire is forced to consistently take on stuff like Charizard-X alone with little chances to recover while it loses to Outrage Zard X, however hippo has more recovery opportunities at times however leaves a much larger CB Victini weakness.
here are the teams:
and a final piece (aka the Monte Cristo Variant) is:
annd before you say Monte Cristo stop turning this analysis into a team showcase, where's the actual helping of the analysis coming!
I'm getting there lol
Anyways as you can see there is no pokemon that consistently walls taunt Mgarde, MMedicham and non Knock Off Mega Mawile all in one slot while still maintaining a powerful stallbreaking/offensive presence. Victini is literally the best glue I've ever used aside from offensive Mega Venusaur (def. Mvenu is mostly a core but it can be considered glue I guess) on stall or balance. It's ability to easily threaten stall while still going toe to toe with some of the best stall/wallbreakers in the tier (fuk lando) and burning some of it's best checks on offense such as bisharp (post vcreate in order to pursuit/SP it)dnite, grarchomp and latias.
Overall I find this set to be an amazing godsend of a glue, while I overhype it, the point still stands that this is one of the better stallbreakers in the tier that doubles as a wall itself!
Can I get that last QC check?
