Gothitelle [QC: 2/3]

[MMII]

Overview
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- Shadow Tag is an amazing ability that makes an otherwise useless Pokemon like Gothitelle extremely dangerous
- Mostly outclassed by Mega Gengar but has key advantages such as not using up Mega slot and being able to setup
- Generally more effective against stallier team types than the other Shadow Tag users in ubers
- Fairly specialized and often reliant on trapping support arceus formes

Shadow Tag
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name: Shadow Tag
move 1: Psychic / Psyshock
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Rest
move 4: Trick Room / Taunt
ability: Shadow Tag
item: Leftovers
nature: Sassy / Calm
evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
ivs: 0 Spe

Moves
========

- Psychic gets the 2HKO on mega scizor at +6 and is stronger in general
- Psyshock helps with Ho-Oh and lets Gothitelle setup alongside and beat CM Arceus formes more often than not
- Calm Mind allows Gothitelle to setup on weaker, specially attacking Pokmon like support Arceus formes
- Rest shrugs off status and lets Gothitelle gather extra boosts
- Trick Room lets Gothitelle take advantage of its mediocre speed to sweep after capping its stats
- Taunt harrasses walls a lot more and can help if your team is weak to spike setters like Skarmory
- Heal Bell can be used to support your team in a status heavy metagame like Ubers
- Magic Coat can be used to surprise Taunt users and hazard setters
- Torment can help it setup easier by stopping support Arceus and other single attacking pokemon from attacking multiple times in a row or using Calm Mind alongside Gothitelle

Set Details
========

- Maximum special bulk eases setup and lets goth setup safely on more targets like Palkia or Scarf Xerneas if Goth can come in for free somewhere (usually after a kill)
- If using Trick Room, running as little speed is possible so that you can move first versus as many things as possible when Trick Room is active
- If using Taunt, opt for a Calm nature, instead, and use 44 speed evs to outrun Skarmory so that you can Taunt it before it can Taunt or use hazards
- If you want to move some of that spdef evs elsewhere, you can opt to run only 40 spdef evs with a calm or sassy nature with the leftover being poured into the stat of your choice. This spread is the minimum required to be able to switch in and setup on support arceus.

Usage Tips
========

- Don't underestimate Gothitelle's bulk, it can even setup on popular Pokemon like Palkia.
- Don't overestimate its bulk, either, special attackers that run heavy investment like Palkia hit too hard for Gothitelle to switch in directly. Wait for the target to kill off a weakened or otherwise unimportant teammember so that Gothitelle can come in perfectly healthy. Also watch out for phazing moves like Roar or Dragon Tail.
- Double switching is another way to get in Gothitelle healthy, although much riskier and reliant on you properly reading your opponent's plays.
- Keep in mind Shadow Tag is supposed to crack open defensive cores so that your other pokemon can sweep or clean up the opposing team. Just because Gothitelle uses Calm Mind doesn't mean you should hold it back until it can sweep.
- If using Gothitelle on a Sticky Web team, know that it is impossible to safely keep an Arceus forme under permanent Taunt to prevent Defog so you will have to find a way to replace the lost webs. Trick Room can help in that respect.

Team Options
========

- Gothitelle excels at removing support Arceus formes which are often the defensive backbones for teams. They are also the most common checks to threats like Mega Kangaskhan or Mega Charizard X. Fake Out Mega Kangaskhan also excels against team archetypes that Gothitelle struggles with: harding hitting and fast offensive teams.
- Teams that heavily use hazards also appreciate Gothitelle being able to easily trap support Arceus (who are the most common defog users in the metagame)
- Gothitelle can also trap Palkia making Choice Scarf Kyogre a powerful partner and potential cleaning option.
- If you want to increase the odds of Gothitelle sweeping, teammates like Arceus-Ghost can help put pressure on Dark types like Yveltal and Darkrai and force them to sacrifice themselves to remove the threatening Arceus forme or just leave them with a burn that can add onto formes of passive damage.
- Overall, Gothitelle can trap a large number of threats opening up multiple options for potential sweepers or cleaners to use. Experiment!


Other Options
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- Reflect can be used to patch Gothitelle's fragile physical defense and help it sweep but Trick Room mostly outclasses this option
- Other coverage moves like Hidden Power Fire or Thunderbolt can be used but Gothitelle's slow speed and fragile physical defense make it difficult for it to pull off a clean sweep without Trick Room and Gothitelle is too weak without boosts to kill a Ferrothorn before it sets up all the hazards it desires
- Sleep Talk may seem like a good option seeing as Gothitelle uses Rest but it is inconsistent in helping Gothitelle aquire additional Calm Mind boosts and may backfire by killing the trapped Pokemon before Gothitelle has finished setting up
- Alternative sets centered around using Toxic can help Gothitelle cripple defensive teams by trapping and forcing the status upon them but overall Gothitelle is better off using a Calm Mind set

Checks & Counters
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Shadow Tag makes it impossible to counter Gothitelle in the traditional sense of the word as you can't switch out. The only thing you can do is make sure as many Pokemon on your team as possible can't be trapped and run Pokemon that can prevent a potential sweep.

**Ghost-types**: Are immune to trapping abilities like Shadow Tag
**Shed Shell**: Also allow Pokemon to escape from the grips of Shadow Tag
**Phazing**: Using Roar or Dragon Tail on your Pokemon will prevent Gothitelle from being able to setup on them.
**Dark-types**: Yveltal, Darkrai, and Tyranitar help in preventing Gothitelle in sweeping thanks to their immunity to the only attacking move Gothitelle uses.
**Powerful Physical Attackers**: Can help in revenge killing a Gothitelle and cut off its sweep. Ho-Oh and U-Turn Scizor are particularly effective as they have the raw bulk and/or Psychic-type resist to be able to survive one of Gothitelle's attacks and hit back hard.
**Pursuit**: Scizor or Tyranitar can come in after Gothitelle has killed a Pokemon and trap the trapper so that it can't repeat what it did on other Pokemon.

 

[Hack]

I'm very reluctant on accepting this, it's a mon niche that only works on sticky web, a team archetype already very match up reliant+ and you didn't even put up the sticky web build for it. It is very specialized but I do acknowledge the work it can put in on those archetypes of teams. However, against any good stall it will be faced with a pursuit user, or even an yveltal. with mono psychic coverage, ttar and scizor not only revenge kills you but they trap you as well, limiting you to one kill vs stall. and another downside is that any good stall player will builds their team so that they don't "hang" on one mon to check a specific big threat. combinations like lando-t+grass (for groudon), lugia+scizor (for xerneas), ttar+blissey (for yveltal) are fairly common in xy stall. this means that you can just go "o, I removed his kyogre check, lets sweep his shit" against any competent player. another big thing is that you are quite crit prone when calm minding up like that, but it's a refutable side of my argument for obvious reasons. anyway, I'd like to see the sticky webs set up and really nothing else lol but it might just be me.

and then ofc there is the thing that your opponent can double switch in his pursuiter to trap you just as easily as you can double switch in your gothitelle to trap an arceus, this is prediction and the example is not made for an argument- it just shows that it can really go either ways with this mon against pursuit users.

Also, I made a quick list of the relevant mons goth can trap:
s-rank:
none

a-rank:
palkia- if you get in safely and it doesn't carry d tail and rain isn't up.
dialga- in most cases.
arceus-fairy- defoger so yeah gg
arceus-water- yep not much to say, this is goths niche

b-rank
too many irrelevant shit mons, notable examples are klefki, misc. arc formes like grass and lugia.

sum: like a good 10 mons that you bank on your opponent using for goth to be worthwhile. Seriously you are hyping it too much. outside sticky webs- which I do acknowledge as a good, albeit match up reliant strategy, this mon has severe difficulties not being dead weight.

 

[MMII]

Scarf Kyogre locked into Surf, Specs locked into Thunder/Beam, Scarf Xerneas, Defensive Xerneas without Roar, etc. Basically, unless you hit exceptionally hard on the special side (as hard as LustKia hard which is a pretty highbar) or are a physical attacker, Gothitelle can setup on you.

Stall can't double up on checks to everything. If they happened to double up on checks to the mons you happened to bring, then bitch about team-matchup. (or take advantage of what Gothitelle can remove)

Also,
+6 0 SpA Gothitelle Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zekrom: 370-436 (108.1 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 0 SpA Gothitelle Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 442-522 (115.7 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 0 SpA Gothitelle Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 184-217 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 0 SpA Gothitelle Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Groudon: 402-474 (99.5 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Not every team runs a Dark-type and if you get a burn on them, Gothitelle pretty much beats them as well. (may take a bit more prior damage for guys like Ygod cause of Taunt and Sucker but SR makes that p easy)

Don't take my word for it, though, try it out. Trust me when I say TR makes a world of difference to Gothitelle's viability. (also, Taunt Goth has worked out pretty nicely for me on non-web teams like in my SPL game with Kebabe)

 

[Fireburn]

QC 1/3

Having fought this Pokemon multiple times with multiple teams while SPL team testing with MM2, I can confirm 100% that I hate this Pokemon, it is literally the devil, can actually like reliably sweep teams if you don't have a Dark-type, I hate this Pokemon, the full SpD Trick Room set is actually quite cool and makes Goth more useful outside of just trapping Defoggers, and I really really hate this Pokemon.

This thing literally drove me into making a U-turn/Defog Mega Scizor and Arceus-Ghost team just so I would have a team that doesn't lose to this Pokemon without having to predict perfectly. This thing doesn't deserve to be called a Pokemon.

(Also if you're running Taunt you should probably just run enough Speed to outrun Arceus under Web js)

 

[MMII]

I can mention the web spread but I wasn't a huge fan of Taunt Goth on webs since it doesn't actually prevent Arceus formes from Defogging due to the fact that Taunt wears off before Gothitelle wakes up from Rest. At best, you can use Gothitelle to get some chip damage on the Arceus forme (while keeping it under Taunt) so that the rest of your team can KO it before it can Defog but it isn't particularly good at that.

0 SpA Splash Plate Arceus-Water Judgment vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Gothitelle: 138-163 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Gothitelle Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water: 79-94 (17.8 - 21.2%) -- possible 5HKO

That's personally why I favor using TR even on Sticky Webs as it makes it easy to replace the lost hazard after removing the Defogger but the fast spread does have general merit in setting up easier on other threats (like Palkia) and gaining the option of Taunt (or Reflect / coverage move :o) while functioning essentially like TR on a non-webs team. (plus, some teams can make the minor chip damage work so not useless as an anti-Defog measure)

 

[user php]

i used Goth a fair bit over the past weak or so, and while it was extremely good for trapping Support Arceus formes, which was really great, it was pre much the only thing it really did.

albeit match up reliant strategy, this mon has severe difficulties not being dead weight.

I completely agree with Hack on this pokemon being dead weight at times, Too many popular pokemon could come in for free on Goth and easily force it out, such as Gengar/Groudon/Lando/Scizor/Yveltal/Ekiller/Ghostceus/Blaziken/Ogre (if you have no boosts)/ and basically any physical Presence
and also other times I found it being utterly useless, i dont have much replays as I dont save them, but there is this one, http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-112244796
(i lost, but thats besides the point lol, and its a long match, 60ish turns or so), goth was completely useless throughout the whole match, I could really capitalize on it due to every single pokemon on the team team threatening it in some way, Goth is pre match up reliant i agree, and has trouble against HO teams, although Goth does shine against Stall teams i admit, I just found it being a useless mon half the time once the Supportceus was eliminated. So it does have a really high opportunity cost to using it, imo

On terms of Palkia; Even if you can manage to bring in a healthy Goth on Palker to trap it, due to Spacial Rends high C.H. ratio, there is a high chance you will get crit while setting up CM's against it. Especially if they get the Crit while you have like a turn of Sleep left, which is pretty deadly, since Goth doesnt run ST, i guess it could be minimzed by not trying to get like to +4 like i do, (also, i havent tried out the TR version, i always used taunt, so im not too sure how TR version fares off against Palkia and other stuff) but it is still something to be considered lol

also for the lols:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-109433355
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-109428447

 

[dice]

qc approved

it can work outside of web too, but it's niche

 

[shrang]

IMO Psyshock should be the primary option if Trick Room is going to be the primary option, since without Taunt, Arceus formes can potentially get into Calm Mind wars with you, and Psyshock lets you beat them at that.

 

[yohoE]

Venturi, I don't remember the calcs much anymore but Spacial Rend crits aren't actually a problem after the first handful of turns. Once you have 2/3 CM boosts under your belt you can play it safe by TR -> CM -> Rest -> repeat and the Palkia will be forced to double crit to take you down. Also, not totally relevant but I'm not sure what Goth was doing on that team of yours, (the Ho-Oh one, didn't look at the other replays) what targets where you trying to eliminate for your team with it?

As for the Scarf set, Goth only really struggles with walls that can phaze. Those a much less popular than they used to be and I'm not sure the Scarf set actually handles them either. (well i guess you can trick them a scarf and come back in later?) Not to mention stuff like Arceus formes are immune to Trick so I don't think that set is viable enough to deserve being in the analysis. I could mention Trick Scarf shenanigans briefly in OO, though.

As for Shock, Psychic is better cause it gets a lot of key KOs on stuff that would otherwise stop Goth. Shock is obviously not bad either but it's a sort of team preference thing.

I'll be a tad slow in writing this up but I'll get to it I promise. (I need to fix up Manaphy's Tina analysis, posting this (lol) so I don't forget)

-MM2

 

[user php]

Melee Mewtwo , ah, it was just a team i made to get a feel on how Goth works in practice; and on terms of what Goth's purpose was on that team; the idea was to that since Waterceus/Rockceus is a semi common way people like to check Ho-Oh, the idea was to Trap Rockceus + Waterceus and in general Support ARc and then wreck as much as i can w/Ho-Oh (hence the Uturn support on both Scizor + lando to get swtich ins for Goth), another idea was also to trap Ogres locked into Thunder (since Kyogre does pose a threat to my team, and I could sack Waterceus to Kyogre;s Thunder if the situation allowed for it and then Trap w/Goth). Also if Goth got the chance to Trap Cleric Xern/Sylveon, that would be helpful to the team as well),that was the idea behind Goth, but also in large part for just getting a feel on how it works.

on terms of palkia, ill get back to you on that in a bit

 

[Edgar]

What happened to this Melee Mewtwo

 

[MMII]

We started suspecting testing it. I could probably finish this but I'm not terribly interested in doing in the case that Shadow Tag is claused. /lazy