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I really don't want to talk here after I blew my top (and the reputation I didn't have xd) in the swagger thread but I just want to say I feel the same way about this I do swagger, complete bullcrap. Its not uncompetitive nor broken. It shouldn't be banned and that's all I'll say. I reckon if we continue like this by the end of the Gen all of ou will be ubers
I love when people come here and bring nothing to the table aside from "I don't think it's broken".
That doesn't work when debating things. You're supposed to give me reasons for why you don't support a ban. If you jut write "I don't think it's broken or uncompetitive" that gives me no reason to believe you.
In which case, if you put forth no effort in supporting it, then you must not care too much about it.
Limiting BP to 3 passers effectively kills the strat. It is not a nerf.. A HO team with only 3 heavy hitters, stall with only 3 mons with defensive capabilities.. That sounds ridiculous. I realize that BP is a whole 'nother realm of play and needs more specific counters (some of which are not common in OU/no one wants to devote a moveslot to prepare), but honestly, think about this solution in relation to the problem.
Also take into consideration that with only 3 BPers, you can still exploit the opponent just as before. A big complaint about BP is that a cookie-cutter team can easily win battles. New cookie cutter team additions of 3 and 4 will be found, used, and the same thing will happen, but to set up for a sweeper. Scolipede will be just as broken and provide defense/speed/sub/whatever before or after Smeargle or another mon with good defensive Synergy to another mon with good Synergy and by the time you can counter it, the boosts are on.. Victini.. Mega Garde.. etc. It will just become a whole new monster.
Try a ban on Scoli before you kill the playstyle that has been and still is legitimate without it. It wins a lot of games and it is different to play against and I know that is hard to fathom, but consider what it is that is making it broken. We have new (incredibly) hard hitters, hazard setters, hazard blockers, etc, so the new meta is no reason. BP has evolved just as other playstyles have evolved this gen. It is not the # of passers that makes it broken.
So... let's review what you are effectively stating with your post.
"Limiting BP to 3 passers effectively kills the strat."
But then your statement is:
"Also take into consideration that with only 3 BPers, you can still exploit the opponent just as before."
There is nothing to straw man here. In a way you have found the solution to the problem presented. When we limit the number of Baton Pass users, it does not kill the strategy. Instead, the strategy adjusts or is simply dropped for more effective strategies. You either have the cake or eat it. You cannot have it both ways good sir.
Blaziken was banned more than just by HO terms. In fact, it was actually banned because of the combination of its offensive prowess and (get this) Baton Pass opening strategies. Were Blaziken to lack Baton Pass I would argue that it would be just fine in OU - perhaps banned eventually, but something that might've been tested instead of quickbanned. Or even just banning Blazikenite, but LO Blaziken had more power than Blazikenite.
(Furthermore it's a good thing it was quickbanned anyway - the thing is monstrous even in Ubers lol).
Easier hits/hazard removal were huge boons to BP, but they were to other teams as well. Apart from that, the big difference in this gen's BP chains (which were never considered OP before) is Scolipede.
I really hope that the council sees this and will at least consider a complex ban of Scolipede/BP on a team of 2+ BPers, Iron Defense+BP, Speed Boost/Magic Bounce, or Speed Boost+BP. Something other than a team limit.
No. You clearly do not understand what has really been game breaking about Baton Pass; much like the majority of the users in the thread. You can look at my rather cheeky post here to give an idea on just how silly the majority of everyone's arguments were on counters to Baton Pass - similar to the recent one made by KidSporatik .
I'm going to break this down generation by generation. While I was not around much for ADV, I did exist throughout DPP / BW(2) / XY. So I have a lot of knowledge even if I am not considered the most competitive nor tournament-like player. I mainly play for competitive fun and so I can write as a foreground of sorts.
First in ADV - there were few effective ways to really handle Baton Pass. Your best options involved Whirlwind users - Skarmory in particular, who was also vulnerable to certain Baton Pass users such as Zapdos. Mr. Mime, a common addition to Baton Pass teams, was necessary to stop Perish Song Celebi as well as Roar Zapdos / Donphan / Swampert / etc. Baton Pass was considered many times under the slate of being tested due to how "broken" it was. The only reason it wasn't really carried was because there wasn't much of a thing as testing like there is today and, IIRC, by the time it was considered DP was on its way.
DPP - There were a few changes here, but not a whole lot. To be frank this probably was the one generation where Baton Pass wasn't really seen that often and, even if it was, there were some methods to kind of stop it. The only real game changing thing that I can really think of was Gliscor being an addition to Baton Pass - the combination of Sand Veil and Sandstorm could make it rather annoying or simply having Hyper Cutter to help safely pass Swords Dances to Lucario or other recipients. The other is Magic Coat - to deflect Taunt and Encore as a strategy to stop Baton Pass.
BW(2) - This was the real game changer, IMO. Magic Bounce Espeon, Stored Power, Mew's addition to the lower tiers, SmashPass Gorebyss / Smeargle, and Quiver Dance Venomoth / Smeargle. There were a lot of things that were introduced into this generation that really builds the core of Baton Pass before Scolipede was popular in OU. It just so happened that XY helped refine it slightly in the forms of Speed Boost Scolipede and Mr. Mime obtaining its Fairy-typing to prevent offensive pressure from Dragon-types.
There's a lot to discuss about Baton Pass that is difficult to really cram into one post. In fact, I'm sure this post will likely go unnoticed by some of the pro-BP people. Alas, can't say I lacked contribution in this topic even if I am by no means a top tier competitor / tournament player.
I never knew (and am still skeptical) about Stadium's Sleep Clause causing an immediate loss for the offender, but my suggestion is just going to follow our standard Sleep Clause: if it was violated, the move would simply fail.
Thats funny because after all these years i still have no idea why we use a clause that changes game mechanics. Tbh it doesnt make any difference in competitive terms but in terms of what smogon is supposed to do (simulate a game) the auto-loss punishment is more accurate to what is possible in game (you can claim a win from the other player and declare the battle over, but you cant literally prevent him from selecting the rule breaking move)
Hey making this account to comment here. I'm ranked about 1730~ on OU. Mostly cause I like testing new teams. I feel most comments here are trying to nerf baton pass into oblivion, people without enough knowledge on it, people suggesting obscure counters, or trying to defend their baton pass team.
At first I was for baton pass but after facing so many of them I see that it is a problem. I generally prefer the limiting idea. 3 or 4 seems about the right number. 5 is still very functional. 1-2 just kills the strategy. I feel 3-4 would work the best. 4 Is still a very good team, but has a harder time with wall breakers and opens up more counters. I feel testing to see if 4 is still broken would be appropriate.
Not sure if this is possible to be implemented but a baton pass clause where you can have as many as 6 baton passers, but only 3 or 4 of those pokemon can actually use the move. If another one tries the move would fail (similar to sleep clause).
This way it doesn't kill the playstyle and lets the baton passer chose which one of his pokes he will use, while still being a pretty major nerf
I love when people come here and bring nothing to the table aside from "I don't think it's broken".
That doesn't work when debating things. You're supposed to give me reasons for why you don't support a ban. If you jut write "I don't think it's broken or uncompetitive" that gives me no reason to believe you.
In which case, if you put forth no effort in supporting it, then you must not care too much about it.
In the case of swagger, if inflicted, you gained a +2 atk boost (berserker gene status X])
Chance of hitting yourself on confusion wasn't a guarantee and you cant break free from the status at times leaving you with the advantage
personally, i find confusion unreliable (unpaired with parahax) and i could certainly go on..
Now with baton pass teams, you can't really say you don't see what's coming. Deeming it broken? Because the standard OU pokes can't seem to budge thru? then you deserve to whine
ppl just don't like to test sets of their own anymore in OU and rather rely on what's considered best on paper. if players were to try a strat listed above in my baton pass counter list, who's to say baton pass needs any nerf.
Also take into consideration that with only 3 BPers, you can still exploit the opponent just as before. New cookie cutter team additions of 3 and 4 will be found, used, and the same thing will happen, but to set up for a sweeper. Scolipede will be just as broken and provide defense/speed/sub/whatever before or after Smeargle or another mon with good defensive Synergy to another mon with good Synergy and by the time you can counter it, the boosts are on.. Victini.. Mega Garde.. etc. It will just become a whole new monster.
So limiting BP to 3 baton passers will kill the strategy of not-dying until you have enough boosts to sweep everything with an eeveelution and create a whole new monster strat that consists of the exact same thing except with a sweeper in the end? What is the problem again?
Full BP hangs on the principle that unless something can counter your whole team, you can simply baton pass to a counter with little to no problems. This is why 1 magic bounce user effectively protects the whole team, why a single damaging move in each poke has no coverage issues, why nothing that is great against only 5/6 of the members is large threat (perish song vs mr mime, m-pinsir vs zapdos, stored power vs haze unaware etc).
Banning one or two pokemon wont fix the problem, just make it a little harder or slower to win. The problem is still there.
Have you considered using those 3 open slots to check threats towards your 3 BPers before you start chaining or simply baton passing less than +6 in all stats to one of them, beating a couple of pokemon, then restarting the chain after your non-invincible pokemon faints?
Please tell me why its worth preserving full BP teams that always turn results into either 6-0 or 0-6.
A limit to 3 passers wouldnt kill BP-oriented teams. It would simply stop you from winning before any blood is drawn from your opponent, which seems to be the main reason why most people hate BP teams or think they are uncompetitive/mindless strategies.
Hey making this account to comment here. I'm ranked about 1730~ on OU. Mostly cause I like testing new teams. I feel most comments here are trying to nerf baton pass into oblivion, people without enough knowledge on it, people suggesting obscure counters, or trying to defend their baton pass team.
At first I was for baton pass but after facing so many of them I see that it is a problem. I generally prefer the limiting idea. 3 or 4 seems about the right number. 5 is still very functional. 1-2 just kills the strategy. I feel 3-4 would work the best. 4 Is still a very good team, but has a harder time with wall breakers and opens up more counters. I feel testing to see if 4 is still broken would be appropriate.
Not sure if this is possible to be implemented but a baton pass clause where you can have as many as 6 baton passers, but only 3 or 4 of those pokemon can actually use the move. If another one tries the move would fail (similar to sleep clause).
This way it doesn't kill the playstyle and lets the baton passer chose which one of his pokes he will use, while still being a pretty major nerf
That would require changing a game mechanic entirely. . .
That's not going to happen, I can tell you that now. You just limit the number of 'mons that can carry it.
Now with baton pass teams, you can't really say you don't see what's coming. Deeming it broken? Because the standard OU pokes can't seem to budge thru? then you deserve to whine
ppl just don't like to test sets of their own anymore in OU and rather rely on what's considered best on paper. if players were to try a strat listed above in my baton pass counter list, who's to say baton pass needs any nerf.
It's not about not seeing what's coming. You should always know what's gonna happen. It's that at the team preview, you are put at a disadvantage that you can't work around without relying on luck.
I run Haze on Quag, so it works, but that's because he is on my stall team. If I was to put him on my HO team, he would break all momentum that team thinks of having.
If it kills momentum, then it's deadweight on the team and is useless anywhere else. Haze just takes a move slot he could use to otherwise cover some ground.
For probably the 30th time on this forum, no one is saying it is an impenetrable strategy, but it is definitely over-centralizing the meta when it makes people fear it so much to where they need to carry an abstract Pokemon moveset.
That's what happened with mKanga, and we all know what happened to her.
So... let's review what you are effectively stating with your post.
"Limiting BP to 3 passers effectively kills the strat."
But then your statement is:
"Also take into consideration that with only 3 BPers, you can still exploit the opponent just as before."
There is nothing to straw man here. In a way you have found the solution to the problem presented. When we limit the number of Baton Pass users, it does not kill the strategy. Instead, the strategy adjusts or is simply dropped for more effective strategies. You either have the cake or eat it. You cannot have it both ways good sir.
It kills the strat of BP, which is passing around boosts to counters that are not inherently strong until you find a breaking point.
Having 3 passers is a completely different strategy which is a quicker, less concentrated way of passing multiple boosts to a sweeper.
What I am saying is that limiting the passers does not fix the problem. It just creates a new one.
Blaziken was banned more than just by HO terms. In fact, it was actually banned because of the combination of its offensive prowess and (get this) Baton Pass opening strategies. Were Blaziken to lack Baton Pass I would argue that it would be just fine in OU - perhaps banned eventually, but something that might've been tested instead of quickbanned. Or even just banning Blazikenite, but LO Blaziken had more power than Blazikenite.
(Furthermore it's a good thing it was quickbanned anyway - the thing is monstrous even in Ubers lol).
No. You clearly do not understand what has really been game breaking about Baton Pass; much like the majority of the users in the thread. You can look at my rather cheeky post here to give an idea on just how silly the majority of everyone's arguments were on counters to Baton Pass - similar to the recent one made by KidSporatik .
I'm going to break this down generation by generation. While I was not around much for ADV, I did exist throughout DPP / BW(2) / XY. So I have a lot of knowledge even if I am not considered the most competitive nor tournament-like player. I mainly play for competitive fun and so I can write as a foreground of sorts.
First in ADV - there were few effective ways to really handle Baton Pass. Your best options involved Whirlwind users - Skarmory in particular, who was also vulnerable to certain Baton Pass users such as Zapdos. Mr. Mime, a common addition to Baton Pass teams, was necessary to stop Perish Song Celebi as well as Roar Zapdos / Donphan / Swampert / etc. Baton Pass was considered many times under the slate of being tested due to how "broken" it was. The only reason it wasn't really carried was because there wasn't much of a thing as testing like there is today and, IIRC, by the time it was considered DP was on its way.
DPP - There were a few changes here, but not a whole lot. To be frank this probably was the one generation where Baton Pass wasn't really seen that often and, even if it was, there were some methods to kind of stop it. The only real game changing thing that I can really think of was Gliscor being an addition to Baton Pass - the combination of Sand Veil and Sandstorm could make it rather annoying or simply having Hyper Cutter to help safely pass Swords Dances to Lucario or other recipients. The other is Magic Coat - to deflect Taunt and Encore as a strategy to stop Baton Pass.
BW(2) - This was the real game changer, IMO. Magic Bounce Espeon, Stored Power, Mew's addition to the lower tiers, SmashPass Gorebyss / Smeargle, and Quiver Dance Venomoth / Smeargle. There were a lot of things that were introduced into this generation that really builds the core of Baton Pass before Scolipede was popular in OU. It just so happened that XY helped refine it slightly in the forms of Speed Boost Scolipede and Mr. Mime obtaining its Fairy-typing to prevent offensive pressure from Dragon-types.
There's a lot to discuss about Baton Pass that is difficult to really cram into one post. In fact, I'm sure this post will likely go unnoticed by some of the pro-BP people. Alas, can't say I lacked contribution in this topic even if I am by no means a top tier competitor / tournament player.
I am not a top tier competitor / tournament player either, so really thank you for the backstory to it. I never really heard anything about it in (toward the end of) gen 5, so I didn't even consider it a threat then.
BP has gotten better additions, yeah.
So has HO, stall, Prankster, however far you want to go.
As Pokemon stays around longer, more strats will get more viable users and more strats will become viable or fall out of viability.
As far as BP goes, it is a completely different type of strat than any other. With the ease of boosts now, it is broken because now both defense, attack boosts, and subs can be passed WITH speed. When only speed or attack can be passed, the recipient can be broken with strong attacks. When only defense is passed, the recipient can be played around; it can't switch before the opponent does and just send in an appropriate counter/get another boost.
Scolipede provides broken passable boosts from just 1 pokemon in less time and less slots than having two to do the same thing. Espeon easily takes away counters and at the same time uses stored power, the usual end-game of BP. The problem with these two pokes is that they do so much for just one slot. Without them/with nerfing them specifically, BP is counter-able just like any other strat.
ppl just don't like to test sets of their own anymore in OU and rather rely on what's considered best on paper. if players were to try a strat listed above in my baton pass counter list, who's to say baton pass needs any nerf.
Its not like the same BP team is literally beating the best players in OU and getting top of the ladder, right?
Perfectly reasonable to assume no one is actually trying to counter it and remain viable against normal teams, better not even read the thread and post random counters from the top of my head. That will solve the 69-page-long issue.
Thats funny because after all these years i still have no idea why we use a clause that changes game mechanics. Tbh it doesnt make any difference in competitive terms but in terms of what smogon is supposed to do (simulate a game) the auto-loss punishment is more accurate to what is possible in game (you can claim a win from the other player and declare the battle over, but you cant literally prevent him from selecting the rule breaking move)
This second sleep clause is not accurate to whats possible in the games (XY) we are simulating is what i meant. Regardless, Punchshroom Baton Pass clause would probably be a little bit too complex for new players to understand.
This second sleep clause is not accurate to whats possible in the games (XY) we are simulating is what i meant. Regardless, Punchshroom Baton Pass clause would probably be a little bit too complex for new players to understand.
So, you're saying we shouldn't do a complex ban because new players won't understand why? That is not a very good point. It is a problem, simple as that. Nothing short of a complex ban will work, there is no "ban this and that's it" fix for this.
Now with baton pass teams, you can't really say you don't see what's coming. Deeming it broken? Because the standard OU pokes can't seem to budge thru? then you deserve to whine
ppl just don't like to test sets of their own anymore in OU and rather rely on what's considered best on paper. if players were to try a strat listed above in my baton pass counter list, who's to say baton pass needs any nerf.
(from my understanding) Isn't that why stuff is banned from OU in the first place? Because the entire OU metagame is incapable of handling it and it could only be dealt with by using specific niche counters? Take Mega Kang for instance. Sure there are counters, but they are not useful for anything other than stopping that specific threat 95% of the time, which can be deemed over-centralizing. Because we all know if everyone were to start using prankster sabeleye, Mega-Kang would've been counterable by many more teams, but the problem is that not every team can viably add a member like that who is dead weight outside of countering that specific threat. However, just to answer most of your list of 'counters', just remember speed boosts so any status thing outside of Prankster odds is pretty much useless.
Encore
prankster encore taunt
prankster taunt
sturdy+metal burst aggron (no sub)
sash mirror coat/counter
ghost type curse
infiltrator
counter set up i.e. dragon dance
multi-hit
destiny bond
prankster destiny bond
haze
circle throw/dtail
roar/whirlwind
(haven't tried it yet but) moldbreaker roar (pretty sure mega gyrados can do this)
twave hax
prankster twave
final gambit on certain pokes
ditto
ditto with sash
offensive pressure
psych up
topsy turvy
red card+sturdy
Prankster Taunt: Thundurus runs this sometimes I think, but then again what is stopping them from using that one attack move while hiding behind substitute.
Prankster Encore: Do you know what can even run this? Because now you do, and make an argument what any of these pokemon have that makes them warrant a teamspot. Sturdy+Metal Burst: You're joking right? Also, this completely fails if a sub is up, which it generally is before they begin their onslaught of attacks. Sash Mirror Coat/Counter: Ok, I know of two pokemon that generally run counter: Chansey, and Wobbufett. And if they are behind a sub, that move doesn't do help. Plus, they can just set up if you start Mirror Coat-ing repeatedly. Lastly, why would Chansey ever run Sash over something like eviolite? ghost type curse: Ok, let's run through ghost-types that have a reason at all to run curse: Harvest Trevennant. Gengar is frail enough without losing 50% of it's Health, and I don't know of many other ghost-types in OU. Destiny bond: If you are talking about priority D-Bond, then I have to say good luck using M-Banette in OU. Otherwise, they can just set up while you Destiny Bond away all 8pp. moldbreaker roar: I made a post a long time ago that explains why this doesn't work (like around page 35) circle throw/dtail: Doesn't work through subs, Dragon Tail is useless against Sylveon, and Circle throw isn't going to be doing enough damage to pokemon that resist it (ie: most of a BP chain members) to break subs twave hax: having to rely on hax to beat a playstyle shows it is broken roar/whirlwind: Magic Bounce, soundproof, and Ingrain multi-hit: These break subs, but after the defense boosts you will probably just barely break subs. Also, assuming you don't run Skill link, these are probably only hitting ~3 times and have imperfect accuracy which could put you in a sticky situation. haze: Ok, fine you've reset their status boosts. Now they just start their chain all over again. Or KO you with their severely inflated stats/Stored Power before you get the haze off (unless you use haze murkrow).
final gambit on certain pokes: Ok, now looking at that list name me a pokemon who would justifiably run Final Gambit (or actually, other than Lucario and Victini, has any reason to be in OU). ditto with sash: Doesn't work through subs, completely outclassed by scarf and leftovers Topsy Turvy: The only pokemon to learn this are Malamar, Smeargle, and Inkay. Malamar is terrible, Inkay isnt even fully evolved, and smeargle can learn pretty much every move in the game. psych up: very situational, you'd be better off just roaring the booster out. which btw you can't really do with BP. red card+sturdy: I have no words to respond to this one, that is probably the only one that is surefire to stop BP chains. That is, unless (1) They have reflected hazards to your side of the field (2) They just set up the chain again, which they very are capable of doing. counter set up i.e. dragon dance/Offensive pressure: This is probably the most reliable method, no one is denying that. Granted if you mispredict their lead you get kinda messed up from step one them to set up Defense boosts/subs which generally go faster than your D-Dance boosts attack.
While I originally did not think limiting the number of Baton Passers on a team is the best fix, after reading all the posts here so far and experiencing the horrors of BP on both sides, I've come around to agreeing to it. And Haunter is right, the big question now is should it be 3 or 4 BP users?
And for the people who hate complex bans/clauses, the alternative, which is to ban the mons that make BP Teams broken, will end up banning a lot of mons. Here's my assessment of which mons will need to get banned, in decreasing order of priority, to balance BP Teams:
1. (tied) Scolipede - The best Speed Boost Baton Passer in the meta. Wins most lead games, in combination with Espeon and Mental Herb. By alternating between Sub, Protect, and Iron Defense, can easily pass at least +2 Speed and +2 Def to the rest of the team. Is resilient enough to be able to restart most BP chains. Is immune to Toxic and Toxic Spikes.
1. (tied) Espeon - prevents most forms of phazing. With Scolipede, practically guarantees winning the lead game for BP teams outside of weird cases like Mold Breaker Taunt (which can be mitigated by giving Scolipede White Herb). Is immune to most status attacks (again, barring Mold Breaker). Can provide mostly reliable recovery via Morning Sun. Is also a great final receiver for BP teams, thanks to +3 Stored Power 2HKOing/OHKOing most things not immune/double resistant to it.
3. Sylveon - provides crucial Dragon immunity and Dark resistance. Has ridiculous unboosted bulk. Can also restart BP chains easily once both sides have lost a couple of members. Pixilate Hyper Voice + Stored Power is a mostly unresisted combination in OU and can wreck most teams even with just a few Calm Mind boosts, that Sylveon can safely boost. Can even work as a cleric to remove status from the team that get past Scolipede/Espeon.
4. (tied) Mr. Mime - works as a back-up Sylveon and Espeon. Provides immunity to Roar and Perish Song.
4. (tied) Smeargle - can Spore/Dark Void leads that Scolipede/Espeon can't deal with, locking down the lead game for BP Teams. Can also restart BP chains via Spore+/Quiver Dance, granting crucial boosts to Speed+Special Attack+Sdef which are sometimes all Sylveon/Espeon needs to clean up the mid/late game with Stored Power and Hyper Voice.
4. (tied) Zapdos - the best Agility passer in the game. Takes off a lot of pressure from both Scolipede and Smeargle. Counters/checks/threatens out a large majority of the S/A tier. Has great defensive synergy with Scolipede in particular, and Bug-types in general.
Runners-up: Scizor/Mega Scizor, MegaMawile who are both the most notable Baton Passing Megaevolutions who also happen to be resilient Steel Types.
That's at least 3 mons who aren't broken outside of BP who'll get banned (Scolipede, Espeon, Sylveon) and 3 more who'll get banned because they can still do a good enough job of replacing the 3 (Zapdos, Smeargle, Mr. Mime).
I think the toss up between limiting baton pass to either 3 or 4 to a team really depends on how much people wish baton pass chains should be nerfed. A minimum of 3 baton pass users can get the pivotal chain, 4 and 5 will give extra breathing room, and 6 is what we have nowadays. In total, there are really just a few pokemon used in baton pass chains: Scolipede, Espeon, Sylveon, Smeargle, Vaporeon, Zapdos, and Mr.Mime. (in approximate order of usefulness). The first three are the pokemon pretty much guaranteed to be on a team as they form the backbone of it.
-Scolipede's role is simple, set up defense and speed (and maybe a sub), then pass it on. The speed boost is important since it allows future baton passes to practically always outspeed attacks and underspeed switches.
-Espeon is the glue that holds the team together. Magic bounce blocks status/taunt/phazing and Espeon also carries the powerful STAB stored power that's used to clean up teams. Espeon can also set up calm minds.
The two above I would put in the first tier of baton pass chains as without them, baton pass chains do not have the power that they have now.
-Sylveon has great typing, with weakness to only two of the lesser seen types, good bulk (bolstered by defense passes), ability to set up calm minds, and hit very hard with hyper voice.
Sylveon is the only pokemon I'd put in the second tier since it's very useful, but doesn't "have" to be there.
-Semargle allows baton pass chains a second wind really, with focus sash, spore/dark void, encore, and stat passing. Smeargle is what allows baton pass to have an emergency response to pokemon.
-Vaporeon is a pokemon similar to Sylveon; it has good bulk, and it can act as a way to set up defense when something scares Scolipede away. Furthermore, Vaporeon has the ability to either roar or scald.
-Zapdos can heal itself with roost, and it helps block flying physical attackers like Talonflame and Mega Pinsir. Not really much to say.
-Mr. Mime I feel is the most situational of the chain. The typing adds weaknesses, and it doens't have as good defenses as the other pokemon. Its true role lies in being soundproof, ability to boost both defenses, and encore.
And these are the support pokemon that help block the threats of baton pass chains.
The reason why I feel 3-4 is a good number is that during my games playing baton pass, a lot of times I didn't really need to use my other support pokemon, keeping the chain between Scolipede, Espeon, and Sylveon. I'd say to set the cap at 4, then see if that has nerfed baton pass chains sufficiently.
So I've read through a lot of this (admittedly not every single page), and my two cents is that Stored Power is the problem here. As a stall player, I find that Espeon is the most difficult member to overcome because its Stored Power simply overwhelms Quagsire. If you (get your ban hammers out) ban Stored Power, wouldn't that essentially create a perfectly viable counter to the strategy? Quagsire would then be a setup sweeper stop, plus a reliable contingency plan for BP chains, no?
Also, if you absolutely must limit the number of passers, I find that limiting the number of Baton Passers to 3 isn't necessarily the wisest choice. True, I don't have the replays to back this up, but I feel that cutting the team in half not only cripples the play style of BP chaining, but makes it completely unviable--an action that I find somewhat analogous to eugenics.
tl;dr Ban Stored Power because it creates a viable counter to BP chains without crippling the play style of BP too much.
Stored Power as a move is not ban worthy.
You admitted to not reading through every page, and that's fine, but I'd recommend at least looking at one of the last 30.
Stored Power as a move is not ban worthy.
You admitted to not reading through every page, and that's fine, but I'd recommend at least looking at one of the last 30.
Hi. Appreciate the reply, but can you back up why Stored Power isn't ban worthy? Also, I have read quite a few of the last 30 pages--a lot of the discussion has been revolving around limiting the number of passers on a team, which as I stated, I'm not 100% on board with.
Hi. Appreciate the reply, but can you back up why Stored Power isn't ban worthy? Also, I have read quite a few of the last 30 pages--a lot of the discussion has been revolving around limiting the number of passers on a team, which as I stated, I'm not 100% on board with.
The move isn't broken. There are two relevant Pokemon that use it. Espeon and Clefable. Outside of BP, Stored Power just doesn't hit hard enough. You take away the BP, you take away the power. Stored power is not broken in the slightest, plus it's easily stopped by a dark, steel or psychic type as long as it isn't 500 BP. You're essentially saying, ban Speed Boost because on this one pokemon, and in this one instance it is broken. So, ban the move as a whole.
Please don't compare apples to oranges. Speed Boost is an ability that has an impact beyond just BP chains. Stored Power is an attack that, if it were banned, would only impact BP teams. And also, "In this one instance it is broken", I think that far fewer people would be complaining about BP if that one instance were not in existence. People would lose to BP less as a result of a Stored Power ban.
Please don't compare apples to oranges. Speed Boost is an ability that has an impact beyond just BP chains. Stored Power is an attack that, if it were banned, would only impact BP teams. And also, "In this one instance it is broken", I think that far fewer people would be complaining about BP if that one instance were not in existence. People would lose to BP less as a result of an SP ban.
I'm not comparing two different things, you're saying the same things people have been saying about everything. Stored Power is not broken. It doesn't ONLY impact BP teams, Clefable takes offense to that.
A +6 Dazzling Gleam or +6 Psychic kills things too. It doesn't remove any problems. Stored Power just KOs everything that isn't a dark type when it's BP is 500. You're not fixing anything banning a move that isn't broken by itself.
Stored Power is not the problem. . .
And the fact you're thinking it is, is quite odd.
I'm not comparing two different things, you're saying the same things people have been saying about everything. Stored Power is not broken. It doesn't ONLY impact BP teams, Clefable takes offense to that.
A +6 Dazzling Gleam or +6 Psychic kills things too. It doesn't remove any problems. Stored Power just KOs everything that isn't a dark type when it's BP is 500. You're not fixing anything banning a move that isn't broken by itself.
Stored Power is not the problem. . .
And the fact you're thinking it is, is quite odd.
If you take Stored Power out of the equation, Quagsire is able to switch in and haze freely--which completely removes the problem. And speaking of Clefable, the Unaware set suddenly becomes a good answer to BP teams, walling them to hell and back. So while yes, the Calm Mind Clefable gets hurt, the Unaware Clefable gets better.
If you take Stored Power out of the equation, Quagsire is able to switch in and haze freely--which completely removes the problem. And speaking of Clefable, the Unaware set suddenly becomes a good answer to BP teams, walling them to hell and back. So while yes, the Calm Mind Clefable gets hurt, the Unaware Clefable gets better.
So you are still forced to use Haze Quagsire, which can fail if the Baton Pass team has any Grass move on the team (the same reason Mold Breaker Roar Gyara can fail due to Fairy attacks). If Clefable presents itself as a problem, Baton Pass may shift away from gathering boosts for Stored Power and instead shift to a physical focus: Mega Scizor and Mega Mawile come to mind, and both f**k up Clefable. In any case, banning Stored Power only increases the pool of counters by a grand total of two, and even then they are shaky.
Stored Power is only part of the real problem: chain Passing.
If you take Stored Power out of the equation, Quagsire is able to switch in and haze freely--which completely removes the problem. And speaking of Clefable, the Unaware set suddenly becomes a good answer to BP teams, walling them to hell and back. So while yes, the Calm Mind Clefable gets hurt, the Unaware Clefable gets better.
I'm not sure if being 2HKO'd by psychic is very "freely".
You're still not getting the point that, Stored Power is not broken. It's not going to get banned.
People have come here saying "Ban BP, Ban Speed Boost, Ban Scoli, Ban Espeon". . .
(I'm not putting caps 'cause I'm raging it's to express a point)
Alone, they ARE NOT BROKEN. And why remove something that isn't broken outside of this gimmick when you can just stop the gimmick?
Stored Power is not the problem. It's just one in a long line of many. . .
It was a valiant effort, but I'm a man that admits when I'm wrong. It seems I didn't think this all the way through. I shall lurk more, and return when I'm more or less competent in thinking.
