Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[haunter]

With all respect to the OU tiering council, I don't think that limiting the number of Pokemon with Baton Pass wouldn't help that much (unless it's limited to 1), since Scolipede can still get up some Speed Boosts, get up and Iron Defense, Pass, and go into a Calm Minding Espeon with Stored Power.
So unless you mean limiting Baton Pass to only one Pokemon on a team, I still feel that the Scolipede-Espeon combination is a bit too much.

Scolipede and Espeon can't sweep teams on their own lol. Come on man. The real issue for me is whether it should be restricted to 3 members or 4.

 

[Colonel M]

Scolipede and Espeon can't sweep teams on their own lol. Come on man. The real issue for me is whether it should be restricted to 3 members or 4.

Pretty much this.

Furthermore, Scolipede / Espeon combo can still be stopped. Repeated special attacks would be the best strategy against this sort of match - preferably with a Dark-type like Greninja. Furthermore, limiting Baton Pass puts less pressure on the opposing player and forces the person that is using Baton Pass to consciously think of what Pokemon to utilize in 3-4 man Baton Pass teams. Sure you can cover your primary stats needed for Stored Power sweeping, but it's a lot easier to remove a team of Scolipede / Espeon / Smeargle for example in comparison to a full-out Baton Pass team.

Aside from Imprison Musharna and Infiltrator Topsy-Turvy Malamar of course lol.

 

[Style_Dota]

For the sake of my lovely boo Haunter, I will do a real serious post.

• Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?

In terms of metagame development, I don't really believe so. Tournament players seem to be building teams at the higher level without really worrying about Baton Pass (mainly because there's like some non-written code that you shouldn't use BP if you want to be acknowledged for battling skill). I do believe that Baton Pass teams are overpowered if given to someone who is semi-decent or better at battling and knows the metagame. You can't give a Baton Pass team to someone who is new to the game and expect them to perform well (not like the sense of Mega Lucario or Mega Kangaskhan), however, if you know what you're doing, then 9 out of 10 times you should win with Baton Pass.

• If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

Perhaps the only factor that pushes BP teams over the edge is that if you are able to successfully start up a chain, it almost becomes near impossible to stop. This is because it's very easy to build a team that is able to pass around the most dangerous threats in the metagame and set up on them. (I don't really have any BP experience in XY, but this was most definitely the case in BW2).

• Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

I don't think that banning the Pokemon is the right call. These Pokemon aren't really broken, even with Baton Pass. Anyone knows that you can't completely sweep a team with something like Scolipede + Espeon unless your opponent has like absolutely nothing for it (something named Tyranitar, but there are obviously others).

• Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

Absolutely not, because Baton Pass isn't broken. It's the chains that are the biggest issue. As we saw in BW2, things like BP Celebi were viable tools in order to not get absolutely fucked by Tyranitar + Keldeo teams.

• Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

I think as Haunter was suggesting, the best way to go about this would be to add a clause that limits the number of Pokemon that are able to use Baton Pass. To answer his above post, I think that three is the way to go for this, because four could potentially have a chain with the fifth member not having BP and the sixth member being something like a suicide hazard setter or something.

 

[Ziaf999]

I was skeptical of Baton Pass being an issue when I saw this thread put up last week, but after playing ~20 games the last 2 days, I found Baton Pass to be something you absolutely needed counter(s) for to have a hope of beating.

Every team I tried to run without a phazer got crushed by Baton Pass every game.
Then for my hyper offense, I tried out Milotic with Competitive, AV, Dragon Tail, but it struggled to do its job. Scolipede can just Baton Pass out to a Fairy-type like Sylveon (or Azumarill if he already got his boost up), Smeargle can Spore or Ingrain then pass the Ingrain to someone else. Milotic as a Baton Pass counter is basically useless, but she's great for other things like punishing Defog or racking up Dragon Tail damage after Deo-D sets up hazards.
My sand team that already had a phazer, Mandibuzz, fared significantly better. He's immune to Spore, and Whirlwind goes through Substitutes and Fairy-types. Being slow, he struggles against Taunt-carrying passers. If he gets taunted, the amount of turns needed to try again lets my opponent set up so much with all the momentum I've lost.

I think to reliably "counter" Baton Pass, you need either a fast Taunt to lead, or Haze. If you rely on phazers, you need a back-up plan because every phazer can be circumvented by the Baton Pass team in some way.

Limiting Baton Pass to 1 or 2 per team is the fairest nerf to the strategy. I don't want to see the move banned entirely at the moment.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Finally! A focus for the thread, and one that I can live with!

All right, 3 limits BP chains to a core of Scolipede, Espeon, and a third member, probably Sylveon or Smeargle. With this, it basically acts as your standard win condition, the other 3 pokemon serve to beat any threats to the team, as well as prevent threats like set up sweepers from forming.

BP would be more vulnerable to wallbreakers, as it can no longer switch between favorable match ups until it gets a free turn. It is vulnerable to set up, because it'll have to remove threats like thundurus before it can start the chain, hazards if they don't automatically lead with smeargle, and things like dragon tail because switches will be much more restricted and therefore predictable. and Unaware will be more effective as they'll be getting less boosts, and are therefore less dominating offensively. The team still has potential to be out of, but it's much more in your control than before.

I haven't done a lot of work with 4 BP users, but right now I support 3 more. That 4th slot leaves room for things like Vaporeon and Zapdos who can easily expand the potential for double switches and other things until you trip up and they get a free turn. It's certainly a nerf, but I'm not sure if it's enough. I'll be back when I've tested it more.

Oh, and is every female on smogon in love with Haunter?

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Finally! A focus for the thread, and one that I can live with!

All right, 3 limits BP chains to a core of Scolipede, Espeon, and a third member, probably Sylveon or Smeargle. With this, it basically acts as your standard win condition, the other 3 pokemon serve to beat any threats to the team, as well as prevent threats like set up sweepers from forming.

BP would be more vulnerable to wallbreakers, as it can no longer switch between favorable match ups until it gets a free turn. It is vulnerable to set up, because it'll have to remove threats like thundurus before it can start the chain, hazards if they don't automatically lead with smeargle, and things like dragon tail because switches will be much more restricted and therefore predictable. and Unaware will be more effective as they'll be getting less boosts, and are therefore less dominating offensively. The team still has potential to be out of, but it's much more in your control than before.

I haven't done a lot of work with 4 BP users, but right now I support 3 more. That 4th slot leaves room for things like Vaporeon and Zapdos who can easily expand the potential for double switches and other things until you trip up and they get a free turn. It's certainly a nerf, but I'm not sure if it's enough. I'll be back when I've tested it more.

Oh, and is every female on smogon in love with Haunter?

That would almost certainly kill dedicated BP teams as they exist now. As Haunter said, you're not going to accomplish anything with Scolipede and Espeon alone. Even with a third member you still can't do anything. What's a Smeargle going to do for you? Spore something and pass out again? Or maybe a mono-attacking Sylveon with some Speed boosts? I've used Baton Pass long enough to see right away that this can never work. You need the other three members to be able to provide a defensive backbone and Pass boosts around at the same time. With three Baton Pass pokemon this is quite simply impossible.

I'm not judging this proposal, but I hope people do accept that this is not just a nerf. It kills Baton Pass teams as a whole. I feel you don't quite understand how harsh this nerf actually is in practice, and you still think this is not enough? What are you proposing? Limiting it to two per team? Or one?

I'm still convinced that Baton Pass is not broken, especially in a metagame with such a power creep compared to last gen, as well as a significant buff to Dark and Ghost-types which cause Espeon trouble. I also believe that the argument that Baton Pass requires no skill, or that it provides autowins is nonsense and is a result from upset players who lose repeatedly against these kind of teams. Use Baton Pass first, then you'll see that these statements are wrong. Yes some games are largely influenced by matchup, while others are evenly matched. That applies to every single match, not just ones with Baton Pass. No, it does not have an advantage against 90% of the metagame. It does require skill to use effectively. Just like any other team out there.

 

[IHSAHN]

I think that a complex ban is the most logical solution, something in the vein of banning Magic Bounce + BP, or restricting the number of BPers per team. BP in and of itself is useful and far from broken. A blanket ban would be taking it too far.

 

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

Dunhilina, the problem is that hard counters to full Baton Pass teams are very limited and extremely hard to fit into most team archetypes. You can't just asininely spam Taunt/Roar against a lead Scolipede or Smeargle. They can Protect/Magic Coat on turn one, then Baton Pass to Espeon and proceed to demolish your team from that point.

After reading many good posts in this thread, I'm starting to think that the best solution to nerf full Baton Pass chains would be limiting the use of the move Baton Pass to a given number of Pokémon on each team.

And no guys, a ban on Speed Boost is not up for discussion. Speed Boost itself isn't the problem, it only exacerbates it.

Scolipede and Espeon can't sweep teams on their own lol. Come on man. The real issue for me is whether it should be restricted to 3 members or 4.

For the sake of my lovely boo Haunter, I will do a real serious post.

• Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?

In terms of metagame development, I don't really believe so. Tournament players seem to be building teams at the higher level without really worrying about Baton Pass (mainly because there's like some non-written code that you shouldn't use BP if you want to be acknowledged for battling skill). I do believe that Baton Pass teams are overpowered if given to someone who is semi-decent or better at battling and knows the metagame. You can't give a Baton Pass team to someone who is new to the game and expect them to perform well (not like the sense of Mega Lucario or Mega Kangaskhan), however, if you know what you're doing, then 9 out of 10 times you should win with Baton Pass.

• If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

Perhaps the only factor that pushes BP teams over the edge is that if you are able to successfully start up a chain, it almost becomes near impossible to stop. This is because it's very easy to build a team that is able to pass around the most dangerous threats in the metagame and set up on them. (I don't really have any BP experience in XY, but this was most definitely the case in BW2).

• Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

I don't think that banning the Pokemon is the right call. These Pokemon aren't really broken, even with Baton Pass. Anyone knows that you can't completely sweep a team with something like Scolipede + Espeon unless your opponent has like absolutely nothing for it (something named Tyranitar, but there are obviously others).

• Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

Absolutely not, because Baton Pass isn't broken. It's the chains that are the biggest issue. As we saw in BW2, things like BP Celebi were viable tools in order to not get absolutely fucked by Tyranitar + Keldeo teams.

• Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

I think as Haunter was suggesting, the best way to go about this would be to add a clause that limits the number of Pokemon that are able to use Baton Pass. To answer his above post, I think that three is the way to go for this, because four could potentially have a chain with the fifth member not having BP and the sixth member being something like a suicide hazard setter or something.

According to Haunter, the definition of a "Leader" is "a dealer in hope..." ^_^

Naw but seriously, IF we are going to finally start entertaining some sort of nerf to BP then either make it so that you can carry a max of 3 BP users OR, as I suggested if there is a Complex Ban, Ban "Speed Boost + Magic Bounce."

The 3 BP limit would still give BP users the opportunity to use the core of Scoli, Sylve & Espe; however things like Perish Song can be used more reliably... if anyone runs that on their team... while also forcing the BP player to incorporate 3 other mons that actually provide something to the team other than chaining stuff...

"Speed Boost + Magic Bounce" was suggested earlier... but if we want to avoid collateral (other than Sharpedo and Xatu on the same team... sorry guys).... then I support this as well...

 

[Alexc99xd]

I think Belly drum + Baton pass should be unviable
speed boost BP... I'll leave that alone
BP + Magic bounce, I leave that alone too

Or, Make sure a team can consist on only 1 Speed boost/magic bounce

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

That would almost certainly kill dedicated BP teams as they exist now. As Haunter said, you're not going to accomplish anything with Scolipede and Espeon alone. Even with a third member you still can't do anything. What's a Smeargle going to do for you? Spore something and pass out again? Or maybe a mono-attacking Sylveon with some Speed boosts? I've used Baton Pass long enough to see right away that this can never work. You need the other three members to be able to provide a defensive backbone and Pass boosts around at the same time. With three Baton Pass pokemon this is quite simply impossible.

I'm not judging this proposal, but I hope people do accept that this is not just a nerf. It kills Baton Pass teams as a whole. I feel you don't quite understand how harsh this nerf actually is in practice, and you still think this is not enough? What are you proposing? Limiting it to two per team? Or one?

I'm still convinced that Baton Pass is not broken, especially in a metagame with such a power creep compared to last gen, as well as a significant buff to Dark and Ghost-types which cause Espeon trouble. I also believe that the argument that Baton Pass requires no skill, or that it provides autowins is nonsense and is a result from upset players who lose repeatedly against these kind of teams. Use Baton Pass first, then you'll see that these statements are wrong. Yes some games are largely influenced by matchup, while others are evenly matched. That applies to every single match, not just ones with Baton Pass. No, it does not have an advantage against 90% of the metagame. It does require skill to use effectively. Just like any other team out there.

Kill the team? Definitely. But the playing style remains intact. Is an HO team just 6 fast sweepers? Is a Bulky Offense team just 6 bulky attackers? Is Volt Turn just 6 pokemon with U-Turn or Volt Switch? Is Stall just. . .Wait a minute.

There's literally nothing I can say to change your mind about Baton Pass, I just know for a fact it's devil spawn, and like Andrew said, simply doesn't require skill.

What I can say is that a limit of 3 will make it a lot harder to use, so all the cheap players that can't win without it will drop like flies. But the playing style itself will remain, people will just have to learn how to support it. I think this option promotes skill and makes the entire meta game better.

 

[Falcon0408]

Limit of 3 means that instead of Full Pass chains, we will have HO teams with Scolipede passing +2 speed, +2 def and a sub to Mega Zards, Pinsir, CM Keldeo, DD Dnite (don't use this shit now, more annoying than smashpass in RU gen 5). The problem is Scolipede. Either straight up ban it (who is gonna miss it really?), ban it with Speed Boost, or ban it with Baton Pass. Or just ban the move altogether, no qualms ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
And can people who haven't laddered high enough to see the cancer that is 1850+ just stop posting their invalid opinions please? It can only be beaten by the user misplaying (least likely at high ladder), early crit/status/spdef drop before they get sub+boosts, or obscure sets that lose to any proper team.

 

[DestinyGallade]

I really don't want to talk here after I blew my top (and the reputation I didn't have xd) in the swagger thread but I just want to say I feel the same way about this I do swagger, complete bullcrap. Its not uncompetitive nor broken. It shouldn't be banned and that's all I'll say. I reckon if we continue like this by the end of the Gen all of ou will be ubers

 

[Riolupe Fiasco]

Furthermore, Scolipede / Espeon combo can still be stopped. Repeated special attacks would be the best strategy against this sort of match - preferably with a Dark-type like Greninja. Furthermore, limiting Baton Pass puts less pressure on the opposing player and forces the person that is using Baton Pass to consciously think of what Pokemon to utilize in 3-4 man Baton Pass teams. Sure you can cover your primary stats needed for Stored Power sweeping, but it's a lot easier to remove a team of Scolipede / Espeon / Smeargle for example in comparison to a full-out Baton Pass team.

Aside from Imprison Musharna and Infiltrator Topsy-Turvy Malamar of course lol.

The thing is that forces more roles on a smaller pool of Pokemon, which means that, if played correctly by the opponent, it becomes much harder to pass and sweep. It's a lot easier to set up a chain with six Pokemon that can reliably pass in and set up on a very large amount of the metagame than (for example) three Pokemon that need to accomplish the same goal.

Limiting BP to 3 passers effectively kills the strat. It is not a nerf.. A HO team with only 3 heavy hitters, stall with only 3 mons with defensive capabilities.. That sounds ridiculous. I realize that BP is a whole 'nother realm of play and needs more specific counters (some of which are not common in OU/no one wants to devote a moveslot to prepare), but honestly, think about this solution in relation to the problem. When Blaziken was broken, we didn't ban HO.

Easier hits/hazard removal were huge boons to BP, but they were to other teams as well. Apart from that, the big difference in this gen's BP chains (which were never considered OP before) is Scolipede.
I really hope that the council sees this and will at least consider a complex ban of Scolipede/BP on a team of 2+ BPers, Iron Defense+BP, Speed Boost/Magic Bounce, or Speed Boost+BP. Something other than a team limit.

Also take into consideration that with only 3 BPers, you can still exploit the opponent just as before. A big complaint about BP is that a cookie-cutter team can easily win battles. New cookie cutter team additions of 3 and 4 will be found, used, and the same thing will happen, but to set up for a sweeper. Scolipede will be just as broken and provide defense/speed/sub/whatever before or after Smeargle or another mon with good defensive Synergy to another mon with good Synergy and by the time you can counter it, the boosts are on.. Victini.. Mega Garde.. etc. It will just become a whole new monster.
Try a ban on Scoli before you kill the playstyle that has been and still is legitimate without it. It wins a lot of games and it is different to play against and I know that is hard to fathom, but consider what it is that is making it broken. We have new (incredibly) hard hitters, hazard setters, hazard blockers, etc, so the new meta is no reason. BP has evolved just as other playstyles have evolved this gen. It is not the # of passers that makes it broken.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Easier hits/hazard removal were huge boons to BP, but they were to other teams as well. Apart from that, the big difference in this gen's BP chains (which were never considered OP before) is Scolipede.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rse-baton-pass.86066/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-round-5-non-pokemon-suspect-voting.3455600/ - ''The Non-Pokemon suspects this round are Sand Stream, Drought, Drizzle, Snow Warning, and Baton Pass.''

Can we please stop talking as if scolipede was the next incarnation of jesus. The issue with baton pass has existed ever since gen 3, and unless someone can prove that a scolipede-less baton pass team is not broken in this meta theres no reason to target this specific pokemon as the sole broken element.

 

[KidSporatik]

No filler, straight to the point how to deal with baton pass teams

Encore
prankster encore
taunt
prankster taunt
sturdy+metal burst aggron (no sub)
sash mirror coat/counter
ghost type curse
infiltrator
counter set up i.e. dragon dance
multi-hit
destiny bond
prankster destiny bond
haze
circle throw/dtail
roar/whirlwind
(haven't tried it yet but) moldbreaker roar (pretty sure mega gyrados can do this)
twave hax
prankster twave
final gambit on certain pokes
ditto
ditto with sash
offensive pressure
psych up
topsy turvy
red card+sturdy

and all those were just of the top of my head

 

[Duck Chris]

I am definitely intrigued by the idea of a 3 or 4 pokemon limit on the baton pass core. I agree with the post at the top of this page that three would just make it function like a win condition that the rest of the team would have to work towards supporting for a late game sweep, while 4 seems like it would just lead to a lot of shitty teams trying to make full BP out of just 4 mons. Is there any reason to cut it down to 3 in that case?

 

[Flamer]

Just a thought I had a while back regarding a limit to the number of BP in a team (Even though I was one of the people who suggested it lol) is that when the chain has been nerfed to 3/4 BPers, instead of Espeon being the win condition it will be a 3/4 mon team passing to 1 sweeper ie Mega-Pinsir. This is still a problem, unlike quickpassing as it will still be difficult to break and probably still be broken (Imagine SmashPass in the lower tiers last gen with mammoth defensive boosts and offensive stats). The root of the problem is the fact that Defensive boosts are so easy to get and 3mon BP chains are still very easy to use to pass to a single sweeper. If we're going to limit BP it'd have to be either an even lower amount or we try a different issue to stop the (imo) broken aspect of BP, Defensive boosts.

 

[rachet67]

No filler, straight to the point how to deal with baton pass teams

Encore
prankster encore
taunt
prankster taunt
sturdy+metal burst aggron (no sub)
sash mirror coat/counter
ghost type curse
infiltrator
counter set up i.e. dragon dance
multi-hit
destiny bond
prankster destiny bond
haze
circle throw/dtail
roar/whirlwind
(haven't tried it yet but) moldbreaker roar (pretty sure mega gyrados can do this)
twave hax
prankster twave
final gambit on certain pokes
ditto
ditto with sash
offensive pressure
psych up
topsy turvy
red card+sturdy

and all those were just of the top of my head

You obviously haven't played much against good BP teams or read this thread at all. Half of those counters are blocked by Espeon or substitute (which they always have), and the rest are just plain terrible in OU other than in countering BP.

 

[Riolupe Fiasco]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rse-baton-pass.86066/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-round-5-non-pokemon-suspect-voting.3455600/ - ''The Non-Pokemon suspects this round are Sand Stream, Drought, Drizzle, Snow Warning, and Baton Pass.''

Can we please stop talking as if scolipede was the next incarnation of jesus. The issue with baton pass has existed ever since gen 3, and unless someone can prove that a scolipede-less baton pass team is not broken in this meta theres no reason to target this specific pokemon as the sole broken element.

That's fair enough. I started playing competitively in gen 5 and just now started browsing the forum, so I can put my foot in my mouth.

I still believe, however, that limiting the users does not fix the problem. New sweepers will take use of the boosts (as Flamer & Falcon0408 said) and use those to become just as unstoppable through power instead of longevity. BP will still be a threat, but just in a different way. The problem, imo, is the ease in getting boosts. Before Scoli, it was hard to play against, but now, it is completely broken because of the amount of boosts that can be accumulated in so few turns.

 

[KidSporatik]

You obviously haven't played much against good BP teams or read this thread at all. Half of those counters are blocked by Espeon or substitute (which they always have), and the rest are just plain terrible in OU other than in countering BP.

I've played against great ones honestly. most are predictable. If you expect the switch to espeon to neuter your status move, go offensive.
if your opponent wants to sub/protect/boost, encore it, and go from there

btw ghost curse bypasses sub, magic bounce (iirc), and protect

I really don't want to talk here after I blew my top (and the reputation I didn't have xd) in the swagger thread but I just want to say I feel the same way about this I do swagger, complete bullcrap. Its not uncompetitive nor broken. It shouldn't be banned and that's all I'll say. I reckon if we continue like this by the end of the Gen all of ou will be ubers

Agreed

 

[ensoriki]

If it weren't for Yanmega I'd say ban speed boost and be done with it its a retarded as fuck trait. Given he does ban speed boost + baton pass yes including ninjask.
Legit throw smeargle into ubers and that's the end of cheese.

I don't think its broken at all, I just think baton pass has been cheese since gen 3 and the stronger its applicants the lamer singles is.

 

[Punchshroom]

I've seen many cases for suggesting a limitation for the number of Baton Passers on a team, but the line drawn for the number of which that borders between manageable and broken is very thin, and is probably highly opinionated in that sense.

I've been looking into what truly makes full Baton Pass broken, as compared to other Baton Pass variants such as SmashPass, QuiverPass, or whatever, and came to a conclusion: what makes full Baton Pass broken is that the Baton Pass recipients can Baton Pass as well. Think about it, SmashPass could turn stuff like Kyurem-B and Landorus-I into complete monsters if the mood strikes them, but in the end most players tend to not go for this because it is a strategy that puts most, of not all of their eggs in one basket. For full Baton Pass, their eggs are everywhere. The very fact that they can keep their boosts while making appropriate switches, unlike every other Baton Pass strategy, is what gives them the upper edge.

I know I'm going to put forth an extremely controversial suggestion, but I say that we implement a Baton ChainPass Clause.

What is 'Baton Pass Clause'? Well it follows more ore less the same guidelines as Sleep Clause, but goes like this: if a Pokemon enters battle via a teammate's Baton Pass, they cannot use Baton Pass themselves. What this means is that it prevents consecutive passing, which would completely nerf full Baton Pass, but keep every other use of Baton Pass intact, even dry Baton Pass, since most BP recipients cannot/do not pass the boosts away themselves. Now I know this involves changing the mechanics, nor do I have any idea how easily/feasible this will be implemented, but it is what I believe is the quickest and easiest solution to keep the strategy/move in the metagame while removing the most broken aspect of it, pretty much just like Sleep Clause.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I've seen many cases for suggesting a limitation for the number of Baton Passers on a team, but the line drawn for the number of which that borders between manageable and broken is very thin, and is probably highly opinionated in that case.

I've been looking into what truly makes full Baton Pass broken, as compared to other Baton Pass variants such as SmashPass, QuiverPass, or whatever, and came to a conclusion: what makes full Baton Pass broken is that the Baton Pass recipients can Baton Pass as well. Think about it, SmashPass could turn stuff like Kyurem-B and Landorus-I into complete monsters if the mood strikes them, but in the end most players tend to not go for this because it is a strategy that puts most, of not all of their eggs in one basket. For full Baton Pass, their eggs are everywhere. The very fact that they can keep their boosts while making appropriate switches, unlike every other Baton Pass strategy, is what gives them the upper edge.

I know I'm going to put forth an extremely controversial suggestion, but I say that we implement a Baton Pass Clause.

What is 'Baton Pass Clause'? Well it follows more ore less the same guidelines as Sleep Clause, but goes like this: if a Pokemon enters battle via a teammate's Baton Pass, they cannot use Baton Pass themselves. What this means is that it prevents consecutive passing, which would completely nerf full Baton Pass, but keep every other use of Baton Pass intact, even dry Baton Pass, since most BP recipients cannot/do not pass the boosts away themselves. Now I know this involves changing the mechanics, nor do I have any idea how easily/feasible this will be implemented, but it is what I believe is the quickest and easiest solution to keep the strategy/move in the metagame while removing the most broken aspect of it, pretty much just like Sleep Clause.

This doesnt change mechanics if you do something like pokemon stadium sleep clause: ''If a pokemon enters battle via a teammate's Baton Pass, they are not allowed to use Baton Pass themselves or the user will automatically lose''.

 

[CorsolaTheGoddess]

I know I'm going to put forth an extremely controversial suggestion, but I say that we implement a Baton Pass Clause.

What is 'Baton Pass Clause'? Well it follows more ore less the same guidelines as Sleep Clause, but goes like this: if a Pokemon enters battle via a teammate's Baton Pass, they cannot use Baton Pass themselves. What this means is that it prevents consecutive passing, which would completely nerf full Baton Pass, but keep every other use of Baton Pass intact, even dry Baton Pass, since most BP recipients cannot/do not pass the boosts away themselves. Now I know this involves changing the mechanics, nor do I have any idea how easily/feasible this will be implemented, but it is what I believe is the quickest and easiest solution to keep the strategy/move in the metagame while removing the most broken aspect of it, pretty much just like Sleep Clause.

I agree here. It keeps the boosts to a manageable level that may still allow for full sweeps, but not all the time due to having 1 or 2 different stat boosts on one sweeper.

 

[Punchshroom]

This doesn't change mechanics if you do something like pokemon stadium sleep clause: ''If a pokemon enters battle via a teammate's Baton Pass, they are not allowed to use Baton Pass themselves or the user will automatically lose''.

I never knew (and am still skeptical) about Stadium's Sleep Clause causing an immediate loss for the offender, but my suggestion is just going to follow our standard Sleep Clause: if it was violated, the move would simply fail.