Can confirm, unprepared Mega Scizor will indeed tear you a new asshole
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Potential is potential, untapped or not. Sure the two have trade-offs, but this means that they are in fact comparable. Terrakion would kill for the ability to threaten OHKO Skarmory with a STAB attack, while still performing the "All-Out-Attacker" role, love the ability to 2HKO Hippowdon with Grass Knot and Landorus-T with a STAB attack, and appreciate the ability to damage Mega Venusaur on Stall Teams.
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 133-157 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 151-179 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 224-265 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 208-246 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
88 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 205-242 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
168 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Slowbro: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
168 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 247-291 (61.1 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Evident by the damage calculations, Infernape has potential in OU as it is able to 2HKO a handful of Terrakion's counters without HP Ice, making it far better than one would think. Also, regarding predictability and 4MSS, Terrakion will reach the point of predictability, in which HP Ice will be scouted and effectively avoided, and Terrakion will have the same amount of potential as the seemingly always outclassed monkey. Infernape may have reached the point of predictability, however it can effectively capitalize on the ignorance of players that believe it is simply a gimmick.
Is this argument attempting make either stand out clearly as the superior choice for a team? No, however it highlights the advantages of one Pokemon that is often regarded as trash and a poor excuse for a Mixed Attacker.
Infernape STABs are Fire and Fighting. Fighting is almost always done by Close Combat but the Fire STAB can be done either by Physical or Special moves.
Let's see what resist Fire/Fighting
Fire/Flying (Talonflame, MCharizard Y, Moltres), Fire/Psychic (Victini), Fire/Ghost (Chandelure), Water/Poison (Tentacruel), Water/Flying (Gyarados), Water/Psychic (Starmie, Slowbro, Slowking), Water/Ghost (Jellicent), Water/Fairy (Azumarill), Dragon/Poison (Dragalge), Dragon/Flying (Dragonite, Salamence), Dragon/Psychic (Latios, Latias).
About them,
Dragalge is irrelevant in OU (i only posted it for being the only Dragon/Poison available), Tentacruel and Jellicent are nowhere in viability, and Moltres, Chandelure and Slowking are uncommon.
Which gaves: Talonflame, MCharizard-Y (and Charizard), Victini, Gyarados, Starmie, Slowbro, Azumarill, Dragonite, Salanence, Latios, Latias).
the most viable third slot in Stone Edge, which gives a number to some of the ones here. The rest of them can be considered Counters of Infernape. (specially the Latis).
Let's see what resist Fire/Fighting
Fire/Flying (Talonflame, MCharizard Y, Moltres), Fire/Psychic (Victini), Fire/Ghost (Chandelure), Water/Poison (Tentacruel), Water/Flying (Gyarados), Water/Psychic (Starmie, Slowbro, Slowking), Water/Ghost (Jellicent), Water/Fairy (Azumarill), Dragon/Poison (Dragalge), Dragon/Flying (Dragonite, Salamence), Dragon/Psychic (Latios, Latias).
About them,
Dragalge is irrelevant in OU (i only posted it for being the only Dragon/Poison available), Tentacruel and Jellicent are nowhere in viability, and Moltres, Chandelure and Slowking are uncommon.
Which gaves: Talonflame, MCharizard-Y (and Charizard), Victini, Gyarados, Starmie, Slowbro, Azumarill, Dragonite, Salanence, Latios, Latias).
the most viable third slot in Stone Edge, which gives a number to some of the ones here. The rest of them can be considered Counters of Infernape. (specially the Latis).
Terrakion is definitely one of the best offensive Pokémon in the metagame, even with just Close Combat, Stone Edge and Earthquake. It does get walled by some things, as everything does (except maybe Char-X and Landorus-I to some extent), but its STAB attacks are so powerful with so little drawbacks.
Terrakion's problem isn't the fact that Aegislash exists, because as far as offensive sets go it's really not difficult to fit Earthquake in. Its problem is that Rock typing sucks, you just can't switch it in. It's so tempting to use it just to get an Attack boost from Bisharp's Knock Off, but the risk of Iron Head is often too much. Keldeo with its Water typing can come in on so much more. Pokémon like Tyranitar, Landorus, Excadrill, Talonflame, Heatran, Aegislash and Mamoswine are everywhere at the moment and it's often really difficult to justify putting Terrakion on a team where it compounds their common weaknesses. The offensive type synergy provided by Keldeo is so much better on the majority of teams, and despite hitting from different sides of the spectrum, they do play a similar role most of the time.
Terrakion's problem isn't the fact that Aegislash exists, because as far as offensive sets go it's really not difficult to fit Earthquake in. Its problem is that Rock typing sucks, you just can't switch it in. It's so tempting to use it just to get an Attack boost from Bisharp's Knock Off, but the risk of Iron Head is often too much. Keldeo with its Water typing can come in on so much more. Pokémon like Tyranitar, Landorus, Excadrill, Talonflame, Heatran, Aegislash and Mamoswine are everywhere at the moment and it's often really difficult to justify putting Terrakion on a team where it compounds their common weaknesses. The offensive type synergy provided by Keldeo is so much better on the majority of teams, and despite hitting from different sides of the spectrum, they do play a similar role most of the time.
Non of them are counters if you consider napes possible coverage. How are the latis at all counters when most infernapes will be running u-turn? It is a clean 2hko on both and then nape can switch into ttar/sharp and pursuit them. You shouldnt judge a mon on what resists its stab (mega kanga lol), nape has coverage that can hit all of them if you go in order:
stone edge, stone edge, stoneedge, thunder punch/se, uturn, thunderpunch, tp, hp ice/se, hp ice/se, uturn, uturn.
I know you cannot have all those moves on a set but it shows how none of them are complete counters. The only ones who can switch in on a prediction are slowbro, starmie (cant if scarfed), latis, dnite and azu (non band aqua jet isnt an ohko). Only slowbro and azu would like to switch into uturn, starmie and latis are 2hko'd, dnites multiscale is broken just to the point where leftis wont get it to full. Uturn will also give momentum and a uturn overprediction can be fatal.
I definately dont see nape increasing that much higher (maybe c+) but i just wanted to point out how flawed your argument is and how there is a difference between a check and a counter. Counters can always switch in and beat 1 on 1, checks can revenge kill (most of your list are checks). Nape is strong but too easy to revenge kill
I don't see Infernape moving up a ton, but I do agree he is better than most of his C rankers. He's only of the few, if ONLY, pokemon that can single-handedly demolish the Skarm/Chans/Quag core that like 90% of stall teams run with his common Close Combat/Fire Blast/Grass Knot/U-Turn LO set, and his great speed allows him to quickly nab momentum with U-Turn.
That being said, outside of this role he's pretty outclassed as a sweeper, revenge killer, and generic mixed attacker by a lot of things, including (but not limited to) Talonflame, Azumarill, Greninja, Thundurus, Landorus, Aegislash, etc. But his (albeit niche) role is pretty solid, so I think that warrants a bump up to C+
That being said, outside of this role he's pretty outclassed as a sweeper, revenge killer, and generic mixed attacker by a lot of things, including (but not limited to) Talonflame, Azumarill, Greninja, Thundurus, Landorus, Aegislash, etc. But his (albeit niche) role is pretty solid, so I think that warrants a bump up to C+
Wait wait wait, hold on, there's people here that actually want to move Terrakion down? Any one of it's sets is incredibly anti-metagame at the moment, the Scarf set arguably revenge kills more win-condition Pokemon than any other revenge killer in the tier, including Deoxys-S. It's CB set is terrifying to play against, especially for stall. Even though it is somewhat reliant on prediction, the fact is that the Terrakion user is the one applying the pressure, not the other way around. If your opponent outpredicts you, well get him out and try again later. If you outpredict your opponent though, then you've likely put yourself into a position to end the game. It's Life Orb/Focus Sash attacker sets are also surprisingly flexible as well being able to run SD, RP, Stealth Rock, Substitute, HP Ice, and Earthquake among others to deal with would be checks.
You clearly have no clue what you're talking about, I like how you claim that others have limited knowledge of the OU metagame. First of all If you force a +1 Mega Zard X or Mega Gyarados to switch, then you've succeeded because that thing wont be sweeping your team anymore, and any momentum your opponent gained dies right there. Also, Garchomp is unreliable at taking out some complete beasts such as Mega Tyranitar, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that they can revenge kill the same threats. Also, Terrakion has 91/90/90 bulk with some very useful resistances to fire, rock, and dark, so while it's no Chansey, it's not just some glass cannon either. How about you show some Showdown Replays to support your argument, because to be blunt, it's awful.
You forgot to mention that it has twice that many not so useful weaknesses to fighting, ground, steel, water, fairy grass and psychic. And your overestimating its value against stall, there are more than enough common stall mons that can wall Terra all day long, on many stall teams you will probably even have 2 or 3 of them. And even if you manage to hit something for good damage with it, the opponent can just switch out to something else and heal his damaged mon later in the match while the dmg terra takes when coming in remains. The LO Set is much better against stall than the CB set having similar power but with the invaluable ability to switch moves.
No... terrak is pretty devastating vs stall. If it gets in, it will break something unless you have a dedicated counter. Last I checked, CB Terrak needed only a little prior damage to 2hko Venu (rocks, I believe, was enough) so you do have to check it. Obviously heatran loses.
Quag is 2hko'd by CC (LO or CB, doesn't matter) though when it checks, the minus defense would let EQ OHKO... Oh wait, Quagsire's own ability works against him. Unaware ignores the drop.
Skarm is 2hko'd by CC banded. Otherwise can check if it has no prior damage. After rocks, LO has a 96% chance to 2HKO though.
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 144-172 (43.1 - 51.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Obviously Chansey falls. EQ can get Aegi pretty bad. So yes, undervaluing terrak is a serious mistake.
Quag is 2hko'd by CC (LO or CB, doesn't matter) though when it checks, the minus defense would let EQ OHKO... Oh wait, Quagsire's own ability works against him. Unaware ignores the drop.
Skarm is 2hko'd by CC banded. Otherwise can check if it has no prior damage. After rocks, LO has a 96% chance to 2HKO though.
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 144-172 (43.1 - 51.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Obviously Chansey falls. EQ can get Aegi pretty bad. So yes, undervaluing terrak is a serious mistake.
Right right, but Infernape still does it pretty well. If he stays in C I understand why, but I think he could fit into C+ without an issue.
One pokemon that needs some discussion is UMBREON.
Why on earth is this thing in C? It's outclassed as a pure cleric by Chansey, and as an offensive cleric by Sylveon, but it does what they cannot do, and that's fuck over Aegislash and Gengar.
First things first, let's look at its stats. 95/65/110/60/130/65. Its physical defense stats are equal to those of Slowbro, and its special defense stats surpass Milotic's. Dark typing isn't the best defensive typing out there, but it isn't bad either. It has a great defensive ability in Synchronise, and with Heal Bell, you can't wear this sucker down. Offensively, it's underwhelming. What it IS good for, however, is getting STAB Foul Play.
Now all y'all are probs thinking "if you want STAB Foul Play, use Mandibuzz. Mandibuzz is best Foul Play user." And as a whole, you may be right. But, Mandibuzz is a support pivot, not a cleric. Both are self sustaining, and Mandibuzz has better typing as a whole, but worse mixed stats, and again, it's not a cleric. So, if you need an offensive cleric not named Sylveon, Umbreon's your guy.
Compared to Sylveon, he seems to be largely eclipsed. Sylveon has a great offensive ability, much better offensive stats, equal special defense, and better typing. BUT, Sylveon takes physical hits like a bitch, forcing you to invest EVs into defense, whereas Umbreon is a mighty wall on both ends. On top of that, Sylveon can't touch Aegislash or Gengar, so if these show up on the field, you'll be forced to switch out. But with Umbreon, not so! Aegislash's non-STAB Sacred Sword does laughable damage to Umbreon, who OHKOs with Foul Play. Gengar just can't touch Umbreon at all.
TL;DR, Umbreon is a great cleric that fucks over ghosts and SD users and walls the shit out of over half the tier. Umbreon for C+/B-
Go on, name them. The best stall mons in the game atm are: Chansey, Skarmory, Clefable, Quagsire, Venusaur, Hippowdon, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Aegislash, Amoonguss, Zard-X, Zapdos, Chesnaught, Mandibuzz, and Gliscor. Every last one of them get 2HKOd by CB Terrakion after SR bar Gliscor, who is one of the worst options for a standard stall team simply because it is competing with Quagsire or Hippowdon for the teamslot.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
Umbreon is set up bait for literally everything that doesn't mind foul play and can't handle some of the best wallbreakers unlike mandibuzz, such as landorus-i and keldeo
edit:
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 187-222 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Chansey is set up bait for literally every ghost with a substitute and some of the strongest bulky attackers such as Mega Scizor and Mega Mawile, everything has flaws but Umbreon is less niche and generally better than every single mon currently in C
Chansey doesn't like taking a Knock Off + Focus Blast/Superpower from Lando either. Lando's just really fkin stronk
SmogFrog, whom of which the post was addressed to, did not support his contentions at all (and I'm sure you would not that, if not for the two of you being on the same side). My main argument is that while retaining a solid base 108 Speed tier, Choice Scarf Terrakion can prove to be set up fodder for most Hyper Offensive Teams. If it uses Close Combat to take out a Mega Gyarados, what on earth would would prevent Dragonite or Volcarona to set up? Aegislash may also be given a free opportunity to spam Shadow Ball, or double switch accordingly. Team archetypes such as DeoSharp aim to set up and overwhelm the opponent with entry hazards, forcing Terrakion to take unwanted damage that will in some point put it in KO range by other sweepers. Also, I said Choice Scarf Garchomp revenge kills most of the same threats, not all. Fine by me if you want to use Terrakion as your revenge killer of choice, but should it be paralyzed, or threatened to switch out fearing paralysis or priority Aqua Jet, Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, ect., one would find that they may have fewer teammates to deal with threats that have set up. Terrakion is by no means a bad Pokemon, however its Choice Scarf set may leave it and its team more susceptible to being worn down.
Ok got to admit, i didnt think Stone Edge would 2hko Venu after rocks, my fault. That leaves Hippo, Gliscor and maybe Chesnaught (should survive with Spikey Shield) as only save switchins regardless of Terras attack. Without rocks Mega Venu joins the group. However there are enough things that can safely take one of its attacks so its easy to scout the attack and then just switch again to something he cant touch.
I mean there are bascily 2 cases. The Terra user predicts "right" and uses an attack that does good dmg to what ever comes in, like SE against Venu or CC against Hippo. In that case the stall player has to switch again and has a dent in of its mons but he can most likely heal back up later. If the Terra player predicts wrong and uses CC against Aegi or EQ against Skarm he loses momentum and gives stall a free turn to do what it wants. If the Terraplayer is always right with his predictions he can put up alot of pressure but one misprediction can ruin his efforts and Terra wont live forever.
Its better than i thought i guess but i still think that LO is the better choice against stall as it avoids giving those free turns.
I mean there are bascily 2 cases. The Terra user predicts "right" and uses an attack that does good dmg to what ever comes in, like SE against Venu or CC against Hippo. In that case the stall player has to switch again and has a dent in of its mons but he can most likely heal back up later. If the Terra player predicts wrong and uses CC against Aegi or EQ against Skarm he loses momentum and gives stall a free turn to do what it wants. If the Terraplayer is always right with his predictions he can put up alot of pressure but one misprediction can ruin his efforts and Terra wont live forever.
Its better than i thought i guess but i still think that LO is the better choice against stall as it avoids giving those free turns.
That goes for literally every revenge killer not named Deoxys-S and Greninja. Garchomp is BD Azumarill bait after a Dragon move and Mega Pinsir bait after an EQ. Excadrill is DD Dragonite bait after an EQ and Mega Scizor bait after Iron Head. Those priority users you hold in such high regard fall prey to the same issue. Talonflame is Mega Tyranitar bait after BB/Flare Blitz. Scizor is Mega Charizard bait after BP. Conkeldurr is everything bait after anything. Hell, even the two Life Orb revenge killers can be set up on after a Psycho Boost or against bulkier Pokemon respectively. The point of a revenge killer isn't to stop setup, it's to get rid of the threat after it has grabbed it's boost, otherwise you're better off using walls. But then again you think Infernape has comparable potential in OU as Terrakion so I think we can safely assume your opinions on the matter are worthless.
My bad on Hippowdon, I missed that since pretty much all I see are specially defensive variants. But even so, note how freaking Hippowdon, one of the most impressive physical specimens to ever grace the game, needs full investment to survive with a sliver of it's health. All it takes is a tiny bit of residual damage and boom, Hippowdon goes down and the entire defensive core falls apart. The fact of the matter is, CB Terrakion is incredibly difficult for a stall team to take on. And that's not taking into account it's impressive Scarf and LO sets. This is absolutely a Pokemon deserving of A Rank.
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Umbreon does not beat SubToxic Aegislash since Foul Play does not even break its sub. Since Toxic has more PP than Heal Bell, Umbreon will likely lose to Aegislash.
Infernape's main draw is the ability to go mixed, and Keldeo is "mixed" with Secret Sword, and has an arguably better typing.
Pokemon dont need to have the same typing in order to do the same jobs. Keldeo is simply better as a mixed attacker and wallbreaker having better typing and more power. Ofc it doesnt get all the moves Infernape gets but it doesnt need them, and honestly the only things worth mentioning that give Infernape kind of a niche are U-Turn and Mach Punch and thats not a big niche tbh.
So there are two common scarfers in the tier that are able to revenge kill it at +2, and you point is? Saying that is has two revenge killers isn't enough to say that its not good. You're acting like its some sort of impossible task to take out the scarfers before trying to sweep.
All of those you listed need to be a near full health to tank a hit and OHKO. Which raises the question, why are you trying to set up and sweep when there are still things that can take a hit and kill you still alive? Or not weakened enough for you to sweep? You don't send Zard X out there Turn 3 setup and try to sweep unless there is nothing that will possibly stop you at that point. Why does Ampharos have to try to sweep teams from full health as early in the game as possible?
It's not a stall breaker... Even then outside of Chansey, what do stalls teams have for Ampharos? It's not difficult to add team support to help Ampharos against things it struggles with.
There is a better option in RP Landorus which is why its ranked significantly higher. However Mega Ampharos does have its advantages like better bulk and typing to set up on Keldeo, Zard Y, Rotom-W, Talonflame and Thundurus.
If RestTalk sucked so much, explain how Suicune and Gyarados have both used RestTalk sets for years now to great success? Even still RestTalk allows to continually check things like Zard Y / Keldeo / Talonflame / Rotom-W / Thundurus throughout the whole game. Considering that every Zard Y / Keldeo check out there is pursuit weak having something that can check those and not lose to Bisharp is a blessing in this meta. Why are you discounting that?
Such as?
lol. RestTalk Mega Chomp...
If you want to see replays of Agility Ampharos being successful see Tesung v Ben Gay, this replay, or this replay, however Masterclass missed a Focus Blast that prevent him from sweeping. B- is a good place for it.
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While I'm at it, I would like to see discussion on Zapdos to B+. I don't really think its that great anymore. It's not bad at all and really nice against Bird Spam teams but its weak to SR and can easily be pressured (no pun intended), and wear it down to reduce it's effectiveness. It does have its merits like being able to Defog and not straight up lose to Bisharp but that shouldn't really be enough to keep it in A-rank.
Just had my BP team destroyed in the suspect ladder by a Roserade. She has Sludge Bomb, Shadow Ball, a high SpA, and is immune to Spore.
So if anyone wants to lower her to D or unrank her, think twice. She has a niche.
So if anyone wants to lower her to D or unrank her, think twice. She has a niche.
Toxic has a 10% chance of missing, do not forget that. Combined with Wish/Protect spam, it could go either way, really, but honestly Umbreon has the upper hand. Unless all you do is spam heal bell, you should never lose to any Aegislash variant.
But I clearly stated what Infernape does better than Keldeo: Fake Out breaks sashes. Fuck Smeargle leads and Magic Coat! Keldeo gets eaten alive by Charizard Y, and who runs HP Rock on Keldeo? In no way am I suggesting Infernape is better, but Nape is NOT outclassed for the reasons I've already mentioned.
Infernape vs Terrakion is a more fair comparison, in some ways Terrakion is better offensively but not as an anti-lead.
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