Weight-Based Mechanics in ASB

[akela]

This is more of a case of Magic Guard having the same effect as Rock Head and then some, but one of the suggestions is NERF ROCK HEAD!!! and a little due diligence to prevent a situation where we end up with a heavy magic guard pokemon in the future (or someone decides to bring Mega Alakazam to a certain godzilla themed arena you were so fond of not too long ago).

 

[Geodude6]

What I was trying to say was that Magic Guard hasn't really broken anything, whereas Rock Head broke Pyroak and Aggron. Buff culture is bad, but so is unnecessarily nerfing things that aren't broken.

(also, the entire point of that arena was to break weight moves, even more so then they already are)

 

[Frosty]

I can't see the harm in putting extra en on rock head. Skill Link does it and Technician does it. Drought takes En as well as drizzle and speed boost. And other abilities I really don't feel like mentioning.

Magic Guard is already ridiculous in-game, so Game Freak already handled the tweaking business (by tweaking the mons that get it somewhat). Rock Head isn't as good ingame as it is in ASB, so it is up to us to tweak it.

If we go by that same logic, then Intimidate is weak-sauce as fur coat does that and much much more. And don't get me started on Wonder Guard.

Abilities and stats and moves are balanced together. We can't just remove that one thing from the metagame, tweak it considering only the respective line of the NDA and nothing else, and then return it to the field. It doesn't work that way, or else we would have to ban Wonder Guard, Huge Power, Fur Coat, Insonmia+Vital Guard etc because hey, maybe a 600BST mon gets them and we are screwed. As I said, if we are to consider one thing at a time, then Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer are completely balanced, as the average BAP is around 13 and with 1/3 recoil we have something worse than Earthquake in pure mathematics. And yet that line of thought doesn't stop Aggron from firing 19BAP (or whatever it is) drawback free Head Smashes.

 

[akela]

Question: Is the issue with weight based moves having flexible BAPs due to a singular ability or the combination of multiple abilities on singular pokemon?

Would nerfing the current Rock Head solve the issue of Colossoil's powerful bounce or Emboar's Head Smash? This leaves us at a situation where Pyroak and Aggron's Recoil attacks are nerfed, solving what appears to be the original problem, but not one where Colossoil and Bronzong's weight based attacks are nerfed, a complaint that was later brought up.

 

[Geodude6]

Bronzong is actually a separate issue; it's not an issue with weight-based moves themselves; it's an issue with Heavy Metal giving a BAP boost to Heavy Slam and Gyro Ball. (which also contributes to Aggron's brokenness) I, and at least one user whose name escapes me, suggested we nerf Heavy Metal to only double actual weight. Emboar's current Head Smash is actually in line with its power in-cartridge. In ASB, Emboar's Head Smash has a BAP of 16 (15.3333... unrounded) and +2 for Reckless for a total of 18 BAP. In-game, the 150 BP Head Smash is boosted by 20%, which is 180 BP. Colossoil's Bounce costs 12.333... EN which is a lot, but may or may not need to be increased a bit (maybe make it round up?)

 

[Pallas Athena]

If Magic Guard ever gets an obnoxious abuser, I would be fine dealing with it. And, while Colossoil might be obnoxious for a number of reasons, I'm hard-pressed to believe that having access to a move that costs 13 energy is one of them. I would rather deal with our real problems (Aggron, Pyroak, Snorlax) than hypothetical ones.

And Heavy Metal is obnoxious in its own way and could use the nerf. Light Metal could possibly also changed for consistency.

 

[ZhengTann]

Time's up, and we've already had a decent 48-hour window without a post earlier this week, so let's move on. But before that, guys, you could really help by bolding, underlining, or - best of all -

quote-tagging

any proposal you wish to see implemented. And if you want the best way to actually get your proposal implemented, well, hard numbers, well-ironed elaboration, and solid reasoning is what it takes to win people over. Currently the Council is tasked to compile "amended proposals with decent support", so really, vague suggestions cannot be implemented, much less slated.

* * * * * * *​

EDIT: Okay, after taking the three posts below into consideration, here's how the slate is going to look like:

First part of the voting:
Should Rock Head increase EN cost of recoil moves?
No
Yes, by 1 EN
Yes, by 2 EN

Should Flare Blitz, Wood Hammer, Brave Bird, Volt Tackle, Double-Edge, and Head Charge have the same BAP and EN cost?
Yes
No

Second part - if question 2 hits a majority with "Yes":
What should be done with the BAP of Flare Blitz, Wood Hammer, Brave Bird, Volt Tackle, Double-Edge, and Head Charge?
No changes
8+WC
10+CEILING(WC/2)
10+CEILING(WC/1.5)

Second part - if question 2 hits a majority with "No":
What should be done with the BAP of Flare Blitz, Wood Hammer, Brave Bird, and Head Charge?
No changes (10+WC)
8+WC
10+CEILING(WC/2)
10+CEILING(WC/1.5)

What should be done with the BAP of Volt Tackle?
No changes (11+WC)
11+CEILING(WC/2)

Second part - will be decided upon whatever the outcome of question 2:
What should be done with the BAP of Giga Impact and Head Smash?
No changes (12+CEILING(WC/1.5))
12+CEILING(WC/2)
15

* * * * * * *​

Now that the above stuff will be moved into Voting, time to tackle Heavy Metal.

The Pokemon's body structure is immensely dense, doubling its actual weight. Adds two (2) Base Attack Power to all Weight-Based Attacks. Adds Base Attack Power to Gyro Ball equal to half (0.5x) the Pokemon's Weight Class, rounded up.

The main abusers in defence are Bronzong and Aggron, the former of which is slow enough to have a near-consistent 17 BAP STAB Gyro Ball, the latter adding Rock Head to recoiless 21 BAP Head Smashes. So the questions are:

• What other potential abuse of Heavy Metal that would have an abnormal impact on ASB?
• Should Heavy Metal be changed? How?

Short answers, IMHO - so far there has been a good consensus already, but it's best if you can present your thoughts with a sharper focus now that we've moved out a significant portion of the discussion. Also, if you think there are any more facets of Weight-based mechanics that warrant discussion, now's a good time to voice them out, because this thread will likely close after Heavy Metal is moved to Voting, should that be necessary.

 

[Avnomke]

I think that heavy metal should just be changed to double the weight of the pokemon, and nothing else. Heavy Metal boosting Gyro Ball is just ridiculous, and Weight-based attacks already get a sizable boost from it, so boosting the further is kind of pointless, imo.

 

[Frosty]

The thing about Rock Head is if we nerf it too, we won't have to nerf Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer/Head Smash to the point of being useless on your every day mon, just because Aggron, Pyroak and Tyrantrum exist. We will be able to nerf rock head slightly AND nerf those moves slightly and have something balanced without removing said moves as option for other mons.

Also, suggesting that the following formula is slated for Giga Impact/Head Smash for consistency: (12+CEILING(WC/2)).

 

[akela]

Since we are here, might I suggest an update in regards to Double-Edge's EN cost? Make it the same as Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer for uniformity purposes (currently, Take Down and Double-Edge cost the same on a pokemon with access to both moves).

 

[ZhengTann]

Revisiting this topic in light of the Voting results here. So despite the changes that will be brought to recoil moves, Heavy Metal remains untouched.

The Pokemon's body structure is immensely dense, doubling its actual weight. Adds two (2) Base Attack Power to all Weight-Based Attacks. Adds Base Attack Power to Gyro Ball equal to half (0.5x) the Pokemon's Weight Class, rounded up.

And then we have proponents for removing all but the first effect:

The Pokemon's body structure is immensely dense, doubling its actual weight.

But then thanks to Red's inspiration, here comes a shotgun target new proposal:

The Pokemon's body structure is immensely dense, doubling its actual weight. Due to it's weight, the Pokemon requires more time to overcome the inertia of its own body, receiving a -1 priority to all Weight-Based Attacks. Priority is applied before calculating the overall priority of a combo involving Weight-based Attacks (eg. Tackle + Tackle is -4 priority instead of -3).

Some characteristics:

• A counterpart to Light Metal on altering priority of certain moves.
  
• Allows Heavy Metal mons to bypass Bounce / Phantom Force / etc using a combination of the Ability, Weight-Based Moves, and their natural Speed.
  
• Flavour, Wynaut, and all other reasons go here - see quote below.

Quoting Obj from discussion about Forewarn a long time ago:

... Come on, you guys! This is ASB! We have so many different mechanics to play with, more than what in-game has! Quit falling back on the same old stuff!

As I understand it, there may be others sparked to inspiration. But I think it's fair to ask that if you propose an alternative to Heavy Metal, please at least give some explanation as to the implications in ASB, or its interaction with other mechanics. Otherwise anyone with time on their hands and a computer keyboard can submit and/or provide feedback. 24-hour window before thread closes for good, maybe more if discussion proves robust and ongoing.

 

[Mulan15262]

Is there a reason why the -1 comes before calculating combo priority? And how would it impact a hypothetical positive priority weight-based move when used in a same-move combo, would it be priority 0 or priority -2?

 

[Objection]

Is there a reason why the -1 comes before calculating combo priority? And how would it impact a hypothetical positive priority weight-based move when used in a same-move combo, would it be priority 0 or priority -2?

I am wondering this as well, especially when you consider that all other priority adjustments that may happen in a combo (Prankster for one) apply to the whole combo's priority, not that of each individual move.

 

[Deck Knight]

At first glance I don't really like it, primarily because negative priority is actually very painful for Aggron. Bronzong doesn't really care that much (although its still faster than base 30s), but there's several Pokemon in the 30-45 Range Aggron would like to outspeed for a Head Smash / Heavy Slam. Aggron also has Rock Polish and Thunder Wave. Bronzong also has Trick Room to reverse its speed, which makes its Heavy Slam less viable in TR.

That said, I have thought of something that does modify priority and would be a much different sort of buff.

The Pokemon's body structure is immensely dense, doubling its actual weight. Because of this The Pokemon executes weak contact moves and physical Ground-type attacks slowly but much more forcefully. Heavy Metal gives these attacks two (2) more Base Attack Power at the cost of -1 priority to all relevant attacks with 6 or less Base Attack Power (after other ability adjustments).

What does this mean as a practical matter? Well, the following attacks are eligible under this description:
Aggron: Rollout, Metal Claw, Fury Cutter, Payback (if still moving first), Dragon Tail, Power-up Punch / Rock Smash, weak Low Kick, Aerial Ace, Bulldoze, Avalanche (undamaged), Cut. [Aron / Lairon Tackle]
Bronzong: Weak Gyro Ball / Heavy Slams, Feint Attack, Payback (if still moving first), Rock Smash, weak Grass Knot (contact), Bulldoze, Rollout. [Bronzor Tackle]

So each of these attacks will have -1 Priority and a damage boost that tends to be equal to or less than that of technician. Thus if Aggron runs into an opponent using Bounce or Shadow Force, it can use Metal Claw for a 7 BAP, -1 Priority attack. This takes the buff off of their strongest attacks and gives it to their weaker ones, but their weaker attacks happen after normal priority attacks in a round. I think it's a fair trade-off for most of them. Most of these moves already have a corresponding move with the same type/power.

 

[Mulan15262]

At first glance I don't really like it, primarily because negative priority is actually very painful for Aggron. Bronzong doesn't really care that much (although its still faster than base 30s), but there's several Pokemon in the 30-45 Range Aggron would like to outspeed for a Head Smash / Heavy Slam. Aggron also has Rock Polish and Thunder Wave. Bronzong also has Trick Room to reverse its speed, which makes its Heavy Slam less viable in TR.

That said, I have thought of something that does modify priority and would be a much different sort of buff.



What does this mean as a practical matter? Well, the following attacks are eligible under this description:
Aggron: Rollout, Metal Claw, Fury Cutter, Payback (if still moving first), Dragon Tail, Power-up Punch / Rock Smash, weak Low Kick, Aerial Ace, Bulldoze, Avalanche (undamaged), Cut. [Aron / Lairon Tackle]
Bronzong: Weak Gyro Ball / Heavy Slams, Feint Attack, Payback (if still moving first), Rock Smash, weak Grass Knot (contact), Bulldoze, Rollout. [Bronzor Tackle]

So each of these attacks will have -1 Priority and a damage boost that tends to be equal to or less than that of technician. Thus if Aggron runs into an opponent using Bounce or Shadow Force, it can use Metal Claw for a 7 BAP, -1 Priority attack. This takes the buff off of their strongest attacks and gives it to their weaker ones, but their weaker attacks happen after normal priority attacks in a round. I think it's a fair trade-off for most of them. Most of these moves already have a corresponding move with the same type/power.

What about a pokemon with Heavy Metal using a combo of two such moves (i.e. Aggron Metal Claw+Metal Claw combo)? Does the BAP still get boosted and the priority decreased?

 

[Frosty]

For consistency it might be adviseable to change double edge so it has a bap formula similar to Flare Blitz and the like.

 

[Deck Knight]

For consistency it might be adviseable to change double edge so it has a bap formula similar to Flare Blitz and the like.

I like your idea to buff Snorlax and Aggron. Please tell me more about it.

 

[Avnomke]

Well we just nerfed Flare Blitz and co pretty heavily.

 

[ZhengTann]

To Objection: I cede my stance. The original intent was to allow Heavy Metal mons to use their naturally slow Speed, along with the Ability, to bypass conventional countermeasure against their trademark heavy attacks (mainly Damaging Evasive moves such as Dig and Bounce). In combos, giving individual moves -1 priority will provide a much larger priority nerf, thus making it easier to evade even the likes of CounterCoat or Dig combos. Although, if we just -1 priority to the whole combo after all other modifiers, it wouldn't take much on the battler's part to decide how he/she is going to play around them. Anyway, I scrap my proposal in favour of Deck's, because his is a better counterpart to Light Metal while being a more generic buff to weak moves as a whole instead of a specific boost to Weight-based moves.

To Frosty and Avnomke: Well, the Council voted against it here. Given that Double-Edge is now stronger than it's elemental counterparts post-Voting, it may warrant a revisit, though I'd personally like to see the stance of those who voted against it on this specific move, since back then the explicit reason was Brave Bird and Volt Tackle, not Double-Edge.

To Mulan15262: Please refer to NDA's description on Light Metal for answers to your questions, since we're following the idea of "being a mirror to Light Metal".


Also, on an irrelevant note, Deck:

Bronzong also has Trick Room to reverse its speed, which makes its Heavy Slam Gyro Ball less viable in TR.

Sometime back we've pretty much agreed that TR reverses turn priority order, not the Speed stat. So even under TR, Bronzong's Gyro Ball (which is the move that factors Speed difference, not Heavy Slam, sorry) still hits for impressive power.

 

[Deck Knight]

Also, on an irrelevant note, Deck:

Sometime back we've pretty much agreed that TR reverses turn priority, not the Speed stat. So even under TR, Bronzong's Gyro Ball (which is the move that factors Speed difference, not Heavy Slam, sorry) still hits for impressive power.

Zuh?

The user's eyes glow red and it creates a multicolored cubic room. The room then turns invisible, only briefly flashing when a Pokemon is sent out to show that it's still there. Inside the room, the Pokemon with the lower speed moves first. Trick Room also reverses the effect of Spe Natures, lowering the Dodge of +Spe Pokemon by the calculated accuracy value and increasing the Accuracy and Dodge of -Spe Pokemon by a flat 10 instead of lowering their Evasion and Dodge by a flat 10. However, the accuracy boost of +Spe Pokemon is retained. Trick Room lasts for four (4) rounds. If another Trick Room is used while Trick Room is in effect, the field reverts to normal.

I'm pretty sure Trick Room doesn't make Focus Punch hit before Aqua Jet. By viable I meant "moves first" not "is stronger."

 

[ZhengTann]

Well yeah. But within the same priority bracket, slower mons move before faster mons. So 33 Speed Bronzong moves before 80 Speed Mamo, but Gyro Ball still hits for 10 BAP, the same as it would be without TR. Call me nitpicking, sorry, but it does not make Gyro Ball less viable in TR.

 

[Its_A_Random]

I was under the assumption that Double-Edge was going to have its own, less powerful formula than Flare Blitz & friends to be voted on in the poll just gone???

Honestly I would be in favour of just nerfing Double-Edge to 9 + WC/2 while nerfing Take Down (Does not make sense for Take Down to be as strong or stronger than Double-Edge) to 7 + WC/2 if it were to be revisited. Cannot be assed to give proper reasoning but I will let past arguments on the matter like things such as Snorlax, Aggron and Groudon speak for themselves.

 

[Gerard]

your proposal intrigues me deck, while the boost is interesting there are some cases where it becomes very confusing, for example. what happens if Aggron uses Payback against Slowbro? He moves first, so his payback will be 5 BP and thus boosted by Heavy metal, but that will cause it to have -1 priority, thus you now move AFTER slowbro and you have 10 BP, no longer boosted by heavy metal, so your priority goes back to normal, but then you move BEFORE Slowbro and Payback will be 5 BP and thus boosted by Heavy metal, but... 9.9. You get the point.

 

[Mulan15262]

Well yeah. But within the same priority bracket, slower mons move before faster mons. So 33 Speed Bronzong moves before 80 Speed Mamo, but Gyro Ball still hits for 10 BAP, the same as it would be without TR. Call me nitpicking, sorry, but it does not make Gyro Ball less viable in TR.

I think, at the time, the current proposal would have given Gyro Ball -1 Priority.

 

[ZhengTann]

To Gerard, Deck says this:
<Zt> Deck_Knight, please respond.
<Zt> Your Heavy Metal proposal on Payback is trying to swallow it's own tail.
<Deck_Knight> Not really, it just means if you're using Payback on something using, like, Focus Punch, you get the +2 BAP because you're still moving first.
<Deck_Knight> So basically Payback is either 7 BAP or 10 BAP
<Zt> Deck - Payback is -1 prio 7 BAP. On a 0 priority incoming attack, it turns into 10 BAP -1 prio, then?
<Zt> Oh. I didn't notice your second line.
<Zt> Sorry for being inattentive.

To Mulan, we were talking about the current mechanics implementation, not any of proposals that may or may not be implemented.

* * * * * * *​

Okay, given that it's about 35 hours since the last post, let's wrap it up. Third slate of the discussion:

What should be done with Double-Edge's BAP?
9+(WC/2)
No changes (10+(WC/1.5))

What should be done with the BAP Body Slam and Bounce?
7+(WC/2)
No changes (7+(WC/2.5))

What should be done with Heavy Metal the Ability?
No changes
Implement the original proposal
Implement Deck Knight's proposal

Thank you for your time. Mods may close this thread as we move to Voting.