Metagame NP: RU Stage 1: Dog Days Are Over / Hello Kitty

[g]

I'm surprised to see smeargle go to OU. Not that I have really used it, but I saw a lot less smeargle this gen then in BW2. It's main role, laying hazards, got even trickier to do since Defog is a thing now.

Baton Pass chains.



Anyway Jolteon will be an awesome partner for froslass as Spikes really wear down its biggest check, Rhyperior. The boulder is guaranteed to fall if three layer of spikes, especially if Jolteon is using a Modest Nature (that leaves it outsped only Cinccino, Sceptile and Scarf Emboar).
Hidden Power Water will probably be the best option to hit both Rhyperior and Gligar for Super Effective damage and only losing to the mighty Druddigon as Grass types dislike signal beam (Roselia and Amoonguss sponge Hp Ice easily). Shadow Ball will probably be an option too for the guaranteed OHKO Delphox after Rocks and the stronger hit on lolclaydol and Gourgeist

 

[Molk]

Alright i've played a little bit on the ladder to test out some Froslass teams/Jolteon, and here are some initial thoughts that i have for you guys at the moment:

1) Jolteon is pretty good imo. I really don't understand the people who thought it'd be underwhelming and/or outclassed by Heliolisk, because to be honest i've been having a blast using this thing and it always pulls its weight. That base 130 Speed stat as mentioned before is really nice, letting it outspeed pretty much the entire unboosted metagame as well as all boosted Pokemon below base 70 Speed (so stuff like Choice Scarf Emboar and Magneton get outsped as well). Between that, Volt Switch, and the power of a Choice Specs/Life Orb boosted Thunderbolt, i often find that Jolteon can quite literally run circles around the opposing team, especially other offensive teams that might not be well prepared to take on such fast and powerful Thunderbolts (the fact that i'm currently using it on Froslass offense makes Jolteon even scarier, as its speed forces a ton of switches and racks up entry hazards damage fast, not to mention the spikes make it really easy to clean up afterwards with Thunderbolt). Volt Absorb is pretty situational, but definitely has its uses imo, letting Jolteon absorb Electric-type moves from things such as Other Jolteon, Rotom-C, and Heliolisk with a bit of prediction, completely blocking attempted Volt Switches and gaining 25% hp in the process. As for the exact set i use, i use neither "standard" hidden power for Electric-types in the form of Ice or Grass, instead i use Hidden Power Water. This leaves you more vulnerable to Gastrodon and the rare Lanturn, but otherwise it hits two important targets in the form of Rhyperior and Gligar at the same time, 2HKOing both of them with Stealth Rock damage, something neither Hp ice nor hp grass can do. As for the final move, i run Signal Beam, which lets me hit at least a few of the pesky Grass-types that resist Electric/Water coverage super effectively while hitting Druddigon for about ~35%, which might not seem like much, but between hazards and repeated volt switching residual damage can add up fast. full set below:

Jolteon @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Signal Beam
- Volt Switch

2) if you're using Froslass offense without Sharpedo, you're doing it wrong imo. Sharpedo is so stupidly good when paired with the spikes support of Froslass it isn't even funny imo. Because of Sharpedo's Speed Boost ability, it becomes nearly impossible to revenge kill once it gets going without priority moves, turning it into an excellent late game cleaner. The problem with Sharpedo though is that because of its incredibly low defenses it absolutely needs to kill everything in one hit to pull off a successful sweep, and if it doesn't it ends up dying on the spot: this is where Froslass's hazard support comes in. If Froslass can stack a few layers of Spikes against the opposing team, it becomes significantly easier for Sharpedo to score these KOs instead of just barely coming up short in damage output vs bulkier opponents, making it pretty much unstoppable in the end game. Additionally, If you keep Froslass around to be more than just a lead, its Ice Beam and Destiny Bond can come in handy against popular Sharpedo checks too, such as Tangrowth and Virizion.

TL;DR Jolteon is pretty good imo at least at this stage of the metagame, and people should really be pairing Froslass and Sharpedo, they work together beautifully.

 

[Cherub Agent]

I think I'm really looking forward to running both Heliolisk and Jolteon together. Probably an Expert Belt Heliolisk to lure in the Ground-types and then dispatch of them, and then pave the way for a lategame Jolteon cleanup. Or mabye Magneton + Jolteon, I'll play around a bit. Magneton is obviously far stronger, but I think that the Ground-killing abilities of Heliolisk may be in higher demand for Jolteon. HP Water definetly sounds like the best HP for HELLO KITTY, no HP is gonna scratch Lanturn anyway (great Electric counter) and Gastrodon is ehhhh.

Regarding Froslass I see no reason why this would go any different from Froslass suspects the last two generations lol, its role as the perfect Spikes setter hasn't changed, it's just too damn effective at what it does. The Defog addition doesn't make too much of a difference imo, it has STAB Ice Beam to kill Defoggers and Taunt to prevent them from doing it anyway. Its offensive teammates can then pressure the Defoggers enough that they won't be able to pull one off (do have another Taunter in reserve though). I can see Froslass getting the boot.

EDIT @ BELOW: very good point galbia, ill probably try double ele specs with mag and jolt first then :)

 

[g]

Magneton can actually take out Lanturn with Stealth rocks up (they cancel leftovers B))

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Hidden Power Grass vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 236-278 (58.8 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Hidden Power Grass vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 180-214 (44.8 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not to mention that Analytic Specs Flash Cannon OHKOes Rhyperior and can 2HKO Assault Vest Druddigon even without Stealth Rock and most grass types used to check electrics (Tangrowth can't take Flashcannons) can't do much to Magneton that can quite confortably 3HKO them.
Electric Spam especially with Hazards (and the fact electic types threaten Defoggers like Golbat and Gligar to an extent) looks to be very strong and Jolteon (that outspeeds some Sticky Web sweepers) is an amazing mon to work with..

 

[iliekmudkipz123456789]

Man screw Froslass, suspect Sharpedo already imo. ;___________;

Seriously, nothing in the tier resists Sharpedo's dual STAB alone, went you factor in the fact that he carries LO Ice Beam, not even Tangrowth can wall it. The only thingg that come close to walling it are Alomomola and Aromatisse. .-.

 

[Ununhexium]

Virizion does a damn good job stopping sharpedo and it can counter sweep the opposing team

 

[Hot N Cold]

Sharpedo is not broken, very frail and relies usually 50-50 against faster stuff.

The problem is when you paired this mon with Froslass, which honestly playing with him or watching replays usually gets 2 layers of spikes easily which is actually a LOT (yeah, even against typical rhyperior lead rock blast), Froslass have the perfect combination between utility, ability and movepool:

- Great STAB that allows to beat common defoggers and Xatu.
- Taunt + Destiny Bond force switch to get free Spikes and also to hurt the opponent with this Spikes at the same time, for example in case that you kill a Frosslas with Rhyperior (both dies because Destiny Bond) how you can deal after with Specs Jolteon for example, huh
- Cursed Body is not reliable but is extremely annoying to get an extra layer.
- Ghost type allows to pressure the spinners, you only need add another doble spinbloker to max pressure (note: doble spinbloker core is only viable with frosslas).

Personally I'm not concerned about this Suspect, I think that Frosslas should be banned because makes the metagame heavy offensive spikestackin which are teams that needs a min skill and auto-pilot and only are able to beat with certain teams, also Frosslas makes another offensive RU mons brokens just because spikes with the best support possible (roselia/qwilfish/accelgor are very far to him).

 

[Stagnant]

Defog exists, why is Froslass a suspect again? Seriously though..

Defog users:

Braviary, Gligar, Golbat, Moltres, Skuntank, Yanmega

Rapid Spin users:

Claydol, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Kabutops

If spikes are killing you that bad, then adjust your team. There is no reason you couldn't fit any of these into your team.. other then you just don't want to have to adapt to what is good. There are numerous more options too..

 

[Kushalos]

Defog exists, why is Froslass a suspect again? Seriously though..

Defog users:

Braviary, Gligar, Golbat, Moltres, Skuntank, Yanmega

Rapid Spin users:

Claydol, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Kabutops

If spikes are killing you that bad, then adjust your team. There is no reason you couldn't fit any of these into your team.. other then you just don't want to have to adapt to what is good. There are numerous more options too..

This is p much everything that Froslass is:

1. A hazard setter
2. A spinblocker
3. A defog blocker

So p much it will just beat everything, i cant think of a mon that can always prevent Froslass from doing what its supposed to do: get up as many hazards and then take out one pokemon on the opposing team, clearing the way for dangerous sweepers like sharpedo and yanmega to destroy the rest of it. Also cursed body is broken cuz disable static shit.

 

[Vivmeister10]

Fr

Defog exists, why is Froslass a suspect again? Seriously though..

Defog users:

Braviary, Gligar, Golbat, Moltres, Skuntank, Yanmega

Rapid Spin users:

Claydol, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Kabutops

If spikes are killing you that bad, then adjust your team. There is no reason you couldn't fit any of these into your team.. other then you just don't want to have to adapt to what is good. There are numerous more options too..

The problem with this though, is that Froslass EASILY eliminates every one of those whether it be through STAB Ice Beam, Taunt to stop defoggers, or just bringing them down with Destiny Bond. Pure offensive pressure helps to ensure those hazards stay, which is why Froslass is such a staple on HO... it gets up spikes and 9/10 times it ensures that they stay as long as it remains in the battle.

 

[Durant]

Well now that the new usage statistics have come and Hitmonchan is still RU this seems to be fitting:

Jokes aside let me say stuff about Froslass.

Ok so Froslass her main fame is setting up Spikes as a suicide lead which is a great niche Froslass does really well. Many battles Froslass well get AT LEAST 1 layer Spikes up and take Pokemon down with it thanks to Destiny Bond. As has been stated it has similarities to Deoxys Speed and Defense last generation. The main reason I think is that removing the Spikes set by Froslass is pretty difficult. By herself she is not affected by Rapid Spin which already makes spinning against her difficult. As for Defog users the only one that isn't at a type disadvantage is Skuntank and Pelipper which isn't many options. However as Froslass usually won't be in the battle anymore after a few turns it is up to teammates to stop Rapid Spin and Defog. However since Braviary can take advantage of Defog with Defiant and with Rapid Spin you can give Ghost types like Banette a free switch which is dangerous. Froslass with her Spikes brings fantastic team support and with proper team support the Spikes will be up for the rest of the match and do great damage to the opponent. Because of the amazing support it gives I think it should be banned.

Also sorry if this sounds weird but it sounds less weird in my head.

 

[Kushalos]

Defog exists, why is Froslass a suspect again? Seriously though..

Defog users:

Braviary, Gligar, Golbat, Moltres, Skuntank, Yanmega

Rapid Spin users:

Claydol, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Kabutops

If spikes are killing you that bad, then adjust your team. There is no reason you couldn't fit any of these into your team.. other then you just don't want to have to adapt to what is good. There are numerous more options too..

Also a lot of those mons arent viable(as defoggers), so i don't know why you're bringing them even up. If you use Moltres for defogging, it might perhaps be time to look for an RU tutor man.

 

[Stagnant]

Listen:

9 out of 10 times Froslass is used as a lead
Lead with something that can 2-shot Froslass OR
Use a Pokemon that can use U-turn/ Volt Switch to a faster Pokemon to KO/ setup on Froslass
Also, DEFOG EXISTS. If you can't find a turn to defog the field then you need a RU tutor.

Why exactly do you have to straight-up beat Froslass 1v1? You have 6 freaking Pokemon to utilize.

In a game of chess, I don't expect my Rook's to clear the board of all the pawns. And I can't expect my Queen to sweep the board 100% of the time.


Here's a Pokemon no one would try:

Spiritomb @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Infiltrator
- Foul Play
- Shadow Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Memento / Will-O-Wisp

Froslass can only setup one layer of Spikes and cannot beat it with Destiny Bond. It is also a capable lead vs many other Pokemon. Memento allows you to shutdown their sweeper as well as setup your own sweeper (OR DEFOG USER).

That literally took me 10 seconds to think of a probable answer.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

the problem with Froslass is that it guarantees the Spikes stay up for quite a long time in the match. as long as Froslass is on the field, there is no way to get rid of the Spikes that Froslass is constantly getting up at the same time. and usually this is enough to wear down opponents and discourage switching to the point where teammates can easily clean up.

Listen:

Why exactly do you have to straight-up beat Froslass 1v1? You have 6 freaking Pokemon to utilize.

In a game of chess, I don't expect my Rook's to clear the board of all the pawns. And I can't expect my Queen to sweep the board 100% of the time.


Here's a Pokemon no one would try:

Spiritomb @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Infiltrator
- Foul Play
- Shadow Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Memento / Will-O-Wisp

Froslass can only setup one layer of Spikes and cannot beat it with Destiny Bond. It is also a capable lead vs many other Pokemon. Memento allows you to shutdown their sweeper as well as setup your own sweeper (OR DEFOG USER).

That literally took me 10 seconds to think of a probable answer.

alright so 1) i already explained that Froslass beats what it needs to beat so the hazards are staying up 2) like you said we can't expect some Pokemon to do everything, so obviously Froslass isn't going to stay in on stuff like Spiritomb! What it can do though is switch into something else later in the game and set up its hazards anyway

also what does mixed Spiritomb even accomplish o.o

edit: also regarding your first statement, just because something is beatable doesn't necessarily mean broken. that's one way to KO froslass but the fact is that it still sets up spikes on like half the tier and blocks most attemps to clear them anyway

 

[Durant]

Hmm, let's see a best case scenario:

Turn 1:

Froslass uses Spikes
Spiritomb uses Shadow Ball

Turn 2:
Spiritomb uses Shadow Sneak
Frosslass fainted
Opponent sends in Blah Blah

Turn 3
Blah Blah uses doesn't matter
Spiritomb uses Memento
Stag sends in Defogger

Turn 4
DEFOG

Can't imagine how you couldnt forsee this probable outcome.

Most teams that utilize Froslass also have some sort of anti Defog Pokemon like Braviary or even Primeape and unless you wanna have those mow through your team you probably won't use Defog. Seriously if people don't have anything against hazard removal while using Froslass it is a problem with their teambuilding not the Pokemon itself. Also when you have to run niche Pokemon like that Spiritomb just to beat it than wouldn't that prove that Froslass is over centralizing the metagame.

 

[ss234]

Listen:

9 out of 10 times Froslass is used as a lead
Lead with something that can 2-shot Froslass OR
Use a Pokemon that can use U-turn/ Volt Switch to a faster Pokemon to KO/ setup on Froslass
Also, DEFOG EXISTS. If you can't find a turn to defog the field then you need a RU tutor.

Why exactly do you have to straight-up beat Froslass 1v1? You have 6 freaking Pokemon to utilize.

In a game of chess, I don't expect my Rook's to clear the board of all the pawns. And I can't expect my Queen to sweep the board 100% of the time.


Here's a Pokemon no one would try:

Spiritomb @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Infiltrator
- Foul Play
- Shadow Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Memento / Will-O-Wisp

Froslass can only setup one layer of Spikes and cannot beat it with Destiny Bond. It is also a capable lead vs many other Pokemon. Memento allows you to shutdown their sweeper as well as setup your own sweeper (OR DEFOG USER).

That literally took me 10 seconds to think of a probable answer.

Except there is no way that will always occur in a game. For example, it doesn't take into account froslass switching out to be saved for later, which I assume is what most ppl would do when they see a shadow ball tomb. It also doesn't take into account the opponent, if they do leave froslass in to die, switching in something such as taunt cobalion which is common on froslass HO that can simply taunt you're defog user. This also doesn't take into account the fact that they may just happen to switch in a mon that you're defogger can't deal with-e.g. switching sharpedo in while you're defogger is a gligar (the threat of ice beam is obviously too great here). So yeah pls don't make such sweeping statements like 'defog user + this tomb set will always eliminate hazards' because it just won't lol. Funny how you say you have 6 pokemon to deal with froslass and then completely ignore the fact that the opponent may have one that just so happens to kill you're tomb and defogger...

 

[Turtleye]

Spiritomb used memento
Spiritomb used memento

The fact that spiritomb runs memento actually makes the fact that Froslass is over-centralizing even stronger. Who the hell uses memento on spiritomb when you got faster and better utility stuff like Uxie and even Whimsicott. Tomb is better off sitting there doing damage and WoW'ing the opponent rather than sacreficing itself.
Also Mixed Tomb isnt good.

 

[EonX]

Defog exists, why is Froslass a suspect again? Seriously though..

Defog users:

Braviary, Gligar, Golbat, Moltres, Skuntank, Yanmega

Rapid Spin users:

Claydol, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Kabutops

If spikes are killing you that bad, then adjust your team. There is no reason you couldn't fit any of these into your team.. other then you just don't want to have to adapt to what is good. There are numerous more options too..

Cool list. But I'll break down how each of these Pokemon loses to Froslass if you try sending them out against it:

Ice Beam: This takes out Braviary, Gligar, Golbat, and Claydol. It will Taunt the Defogger if it can't OHKO it because it does outspeed them all. This also stops Hitmontop/chan from using Foresight to spin through the Ghost-typing.
Destiny Bond: This takes care of Kabutops as it has to break past Froslass before spinning, meaning it's an easy D-Bond double down decision for the Froslass user. Same thing for Hitmonlee. And before you say Knock Off, that won't work. Sash will be used up before the effect of Knock Off actually takes place, even if Froslass hasn't used it yet. Skuntank will suffer a similar fate since Sucker Punch fails until Froslass decides to use an offensive move.
Common sense: If you're using Moltres or Yanmega for Defog, you're doing it wrong. These two are powerful wallbreakers (or late-game cleaners in the case of Speed Boost Yanmega) so you shouldn't be considering them for Defog users. Even Braviary is a bit questionable imo. And if you are using these for Defog, shouldn't that tell you something about Froslass?

This doesn't even take into account the teammates Froslass could have. Every listed Defog user is getting destroyed by CB Braviary if they try to Defog. A Ghost-type, such as OTR Cofagrigus can easily stop most of the listed spinners, only truly struggling with Hitmonlee due to Knock Off. But even then, Lee is getting worn down enough for p. much any faster threat to come in after and take it out before it can get off a spin. Froslass is being suspected because it is, by far, the best offensive Spikes user in the tier and makes Spike stacking teams an incredible force in the current metagame. Whether it makes these teams too difficult to handle is something we'll probably all have a marginally different take on, but just because Defog exists doesn't make Froslass any less dangerous.

 

[Stagnant]

Except there is no way that will always occur in a game. For example, it doesn't take into account froslass switching out to be saved for later, which I assume is what most ppl would do when they see a shadow ball tomb. It also doesn't take into account the opponent, if they do leave froslass in to die, switching in something such as taunt cobalion which is common on froslass HO that can simply taunt you're defog user. This also doesn't take into account the fact that they may just happen to switch in a mon that you're defogger can't deal with-e.g. switching sharpedo in while you're defogger is a gligar (the threat of ice beam is obviously too great here). So yeah pls don't make such sweeping statements like 'defog user + this tomb set will always eliminate hazards' because it just won't lol. Funny how you say you have 6 pokemon to deal with froslass and then completely ignore the fact that the opponent may have one that just so happens to kill you're tomb and defogger...

THIS. THIS right here is what is the problem with suspect testing. People create "what-if" situations in a suspects favor and considers that to be the end all be all. What if I switch? to my other 5 teammates. I have that option too. I don't care how Spiritomb functions on your lame team. It works for my team. In addition to this, Spiritomb is one of many options I can use. What if I use Beat-Up Weavile/ Sneasel? or Ambipom? or who-ever else? What if I use a Switcheroo Choice Scarf Furret; Swap the scarf and U-Turn to my Defogger? All these Pokemon can be thrown into a team with out it being centralizing in any way because of their utility.

The fact that spiritomb runs memento actually makes the fact that Froslass is over-centralizing even stronger.

Or.. I use Memento for the reasons provided. I like having utility on my team. Memento, Destiny Bond, Pursuit, Taunt, etc.. People are too worried about the opponents Pokemon in the forefront and not executing a plan of their own.

 

[Imanalt]

What if I use Beat-Up Weavile (This is bl)/ Sneasel (this is bad)? or Ambipom (this is also bad)? or who-ever else? What if I use a Switcheroo Choice Scarf Furret (Still bad); Swap the scarf and U-Turn to my Defogger? All these Pokemon can be thrown into a team with out it being centralizing in any way because of their utility.

they don't have utility, most of them don't even have a niche... and please, at least play the game before you talk, rather than bringing up hypotheticals with mons that aren't even close to being ru...

If you are seriously considering using a mon like these that are bad, purely to beat one threat, there are two possibilities 1) Its overcentralizing, 2) you're bad and teambuilding wrong... ill let you decide which you think...

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

THIS. THIS right here is what is the problem with suspect testing. People create "what-if" situations in a suspects favor and considers that to be the end all be all. What if I switch? to my other 5 teammates. I have that option too. I don't care how Spiritomb functions on your lame team. It works for my team. In addition to this, Spiritomb is one of many options I can use. What if I use Beat-Up Weavile/ Sneasel? or Ambipom? or who-ever else? What if I use a Switcheroo Choice Scarf Furret; Swap the scarf and U-Turn to my Defogger? All these Pokemon can be thrown into a team with out it being centralizing in any way because of their utility.

If you switch, Froslass gets another layer of spikes or get some chip damage with ice beam or pressures your switch in with dbond.
If you use Furret, you should seriously reconsider life and find a cliff to jump off, because that shit is horrible.
No one stays in on ambipom with froslass, as they can easily get rocks with Froslass' pal Cobalion on him.

Or.. I use Memento for the reasons provided. I like having utility on my team. Memento, Destiny Bond, Pursuit, Taunt, etc.. People are too worried about the opponents Pokemon in the forefront and not executing a plan of their own.

Nice 1100 rank

 

[Turtleye]

they don't have utility, most of them don't even have a niche... and please, at least play the game before you talk, rather than bringing up hypotheticals with mons that aren't even close to being ru...

Well ambipom has some use but it is never running Beat Up anyway since KNock Off exists.
Not that ambipom is that good

 

[Stagnant]

Why would you run Knock-Off? When beat-up eliminates this top tier threat? Doesn't make much sense.

 

[TROP]

Why would you run Knock-Off? When beat-up eliminates this top tier threat? Doesn't make much sense.

 

[Ningildo]

THIS. THIS right here is what is the problem with suspect testing. People create "what-if" situations in a suspects favor and considers that to be the end all be all. What if I switch? to my other 5 teammates. I have that option too. I don't care how Spiritomb functions on your lame team. It works for my team. In addition to this, Spiritomb is one of many options I can use. What if I use Beat-Up Weavile/ Sneasel? or Ambipom? or who-ever else? What if I use a Switcheroo Choice Scarf Furret; Swap the scarf and U-Turn to my Defogger? All these Pokemon can be thrown into a team with out it being centralizing in any way because of their utility.



Or.. I use Memento for the reasons provided. I like having utility on my team. Memento, Destiny Bond, Pursuit, Taunt, etc.. People are too worried about the opponents Pokemon in the forefront and not executing a plan of their own.

Maybe you should ask yourself what else these mons with lots of "utility" do besides force locking an opponent (Furret), use a subpar move to break thru a sash(Sneasel, I wish Weavile was available but he's BL...) etc. Are you using them because Beat Up has SUCH HIGH BP or that Switcheroo and Trick users are had to come by? Or is it because of Frosslass? I'd like to know that.

As for my opinion, I haven't really played against it, so I can't really say if it should go or not. I do think that the pro-ban side might have inflated the toughness of taking it out, but I have to play to see if it actually is the case.