I don't want do sound douchey here, but rhyperior can completely stop froslass with rock blast provided it hits three times with the EVs I use
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Metagame NP: RU Stage 1: Dog Days Are Over / Hello Kitty
- Thread starter Molk
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Well Froslass outspeeds and does big damage with Ice Beam. Rhyperior also has to hit Rock Blast three times which can't always be relied on. And if anyone wants to know these are the best ways to defeat Froslass leads 1 on 1 for the time being:
I have probably definitely missed a few but these are some general Pokemon you can use to defeat Froslass without too much trouble. May help some people.
But I can just not lead Froslass, or if my team is weak to Rhyperior I can just D-Bond and sweep your team, I'm not saying that I am convinced Froslass is broken (I'm not), but saying X Pokemon beats Y Pokemon has never made a Pokemon not broken (especially if that Pokemon is Furret @_@). If you are playing a person who leads with Froslass regardless of your team's composition you are not playing a very smart opponent.
If you watch this replay of me vs Tsunami, you can see that just having Froslass made the lead game pretty easy predict for me.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ru-11657
Relevant turns are Turn 1 and Turns 28-30
That being said Froslass does have issues with Slower pokemon with access to priority (not Mach Punch or Sucker Punch), as this limits it to one layer of spikes and no kills, but Froslass can play around that by a turn 1 Destiny Bond. Froslass is the type of Pokemon that forces a 50/50 every time it comes in and while that doesn't necessarily make it broken, you have to ask yourself if it is still healthy for the meta game.
I meant I wasn't trying to say it wasn't broken because of rhyperior, but it can do well against it.
My thoughts on Froslass are basically what everyone's already said—fast, is almost guaranteed to set up one or two layers, Destiny Bond is a wonderful tool.
However, it's not the Pokemon itself that I find troubling, it's the effect it has on the metagame. Not only does it limit teambuilding when you have to prepare for 2 layers of Spikes on the battlefield from turn two, but also the battling itself—many Pokemon simply cannot afford to lose so much health switching in from the very start of the battle. Entry hazards are in no way broken, but having that constant source of pressure from turn one is seriously hard to play around sometimes and isn't, in my opinion, an optimal experience when battling.
Most of the arguments about spinners and defoggers aren't very good. Braviary is an amazing Defiant user, and I don't know why more people aren't using its Choice Band set—after a Defiant boost, capable of OHKOing Gligar and 2HKOing both Rhyperior and Doublade, allowing it to be one of the strongest, fastest nukes in the tier, and more than capable of sweeping in the right conditions. In other words, if Braviary gets that Defiant boost, something will die. For more defensive teams that don't pack the speed or muscle to take down a +2 banded Braviary, they might as well forfeit right then and there. As far as spinners go, most of them simply aren't all that reliable. Most of them, if not all of them, are quite threatened by Ghost-types if they switch in on a Rapid Spin, and even if they do manage to OHKO or 2HKO them with Knock Off or something, it allows the opponent to send in something that applies enough offensive pressure to put off the spin. And remember, a smart player can easily manipulate the opponent's desire to get rid of hazards early—this often leads to seriously detrimental predictions for the player attempting to spin.
And no, I don't see Hitmontop as a perfect solution. While Foresight + Rapid Spin nearly guarantees a spin will happen, you're still giving free turns to Pokemon like Banette, Doublade, Mismagius, Jellicent, and every other Ghost-type that can either make Hitmontop near-useless with Will-o-Wisp or set up in its face. Besides, what even slightly offensive team wants to run Foresight Hitmontop with Intimidate and full defensive EVs?
The other argument I'm not getting is the argument that you can simply lead with something that beats Froslass. Are you telling me that when I build a stall team, I should pack something like a Cinccino to guarantee I have a good matchup against opposing HO teams with Froslass? Pokemon like Rhyperior aren't a good answer either—any good player will immediately realize that eliminating Rhyperior > getting Spikes up, and many defensive or bulky offense teams will really struggle once their Rhyperior is gone from the beginning of the match, seeing how good and useful it is against a variety of threats. In other words, losing Froslass is much less detrimental to HO teams than losing a key team player is for other teams.
Besides, even if you came up with the perfect, unbeatable counter to Froslass, all you'd accomplish would be putting yourself in a disadvantageous position in all other scenarios, as most Froslass "counters" struggle to achieve much outside of killing Froslass. I'm not saying Pokemon like Cinccino are bad, but there is a reason Cincinno is not S-rank, and there's a reason why you don't find it on every team: it's just not that stellar of a Pokemon, and neither are any of the other possible "counters" you could invent for Froslass, and there's no way in hell I'd ever want to run a Pokemon on a team specifically to counter Froslass. The opportunity cost of running something better is oftentimes just way too high.
Atomicllamas put it perfectly. Nothing in particular makes Froslass overtly broken, but while its qualities might not "necessarily make it broken, you have to ask yourself if it is still healthy for the meta game." Considering all of the little factors that I've pointed out, I think Froslass is not a healthy nor ideal Pokemon to have in the tier.
However, it's not the Pokemon itself that I find troubling, it's the effect it has on the metagame. Not only does it limit teambuilding when you have to prepare for 2 layers of Spikes on the battlefield from turn two, but also the battling itself—many Pokemon simply cannot afford to lose so much health switching in from the very start of the battle. Entry hazards are in no way broken, but having that constant source of pressure from turn one is seriously hard to play around sometimes and isn't, in my opinion, an optimal experience when battling.
Most of the arguments about spinners and defoggers aren't very good. Braviary is an amazing Defiant user, and I don't know why more people aren't using its Choice Band set—after a Defiant boost, capable of OHKOing Gligar and 2HKOing both Rhyperior and Doublade, allowing it to be one of the strongest, fastest nukes in the tier, and more than capable of sweeping in the right conditions. In other words, if Braviary gets that Defiant boost, something will die. For more defensive teams that don't pack the speed or muscle to take down a +2 banded Braviary, they might as well forfeit right then and there. As far as spinners go, most of them simply aren't all that reliable. Most of them, if not all of them, are quite threatened by Ghost-types if they switch in on a Rapid Spin, and even if they do manage to OHKO or 2HKO them with Knock Off or something, it allows the opponent to send in something that applies enough offensive pressure to put off the spin. And remember, a smart player can easily manipulate the opponent's desire to get rid of hazards early—this often leads to seriously detrimental predictions for the player attempting to spin.
And no, I don't see Hitmontop as a perfect solution. While Foresight + Rapid Spin nearly guarantees a spin will happen, you're still giving free turns to Pokemon like Banette, Doublade, Mismagius, Jellicent, and every other Ghost-type that can either make Hitmontop near-useless with Will-o-Wisp or set up in its face. Besides, what even slightly offensive team wants to run Foresight Hitmontop with Intimidate and full defensive EVs?
The other argument I'm not getting is the argument that you can simply lead with something that beats Froslass. Are you telling me that when I build a stall team, I should pack something like a Cinccino to guarantee I have a good matchup against opposing HO teams with Froslass? Pokemon like Rhyperior aren't a good answer either—any good player will immediately realize that eliminating Rhyperior > getting Spikes up, and many defensive or bulky offense teams will really struggle once their Rhyperior is gone from the beginning of the match, seeing how good and useful it is against a variety of threats. In other words, losing Froslass is much less detrimental to HO teams than losing a key team player is for other teams.
Besides, even if you came up with the perfect, unbeatable counter to Froslass, all you'd accomplish would be putting yourself in a disadvantageous position in all other scenarios, as most Froslass "counters" struggle to achieve much outside of killing Froslass. I'm not saying Pokemon like Cinccino are bad, but there is a reason Cincinno is not S-rank, and there's a reason why you don't find it on every team: it's just not that stellar of a Pokemon, and neither are any of the other possible "counters" you could invent for Froslass, and there's no way in hell I'd ever want to run a Pokemon on a team specifically to counter Froslass. The opportunity cost of running something better is oftentimes just way too high.
Atomicllamas put it perfectly. Nothing in particular makes Froslass overtly broken, but while its qualities might not "necessarily make it broken, you have to ask yourself if it is still healthy for the meta game." Considering all of the little factors that I've pointed out, I think Froslass is not a healthy nor ideal Pokemon to have in the tier.
EnerG218
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Since technically I have enough 2420 COIL and the system is going to be 2400 soon, ill post my opinions:
lost like 6 games in a row once with hax so garb ranking :[
I think even though Froslass has great niche in the metagame, I don't think personally that it is broken. It has amazing speed and amazing movepool, allowing it almost a guarenteed 2 layers of spikes up. Froslass also learns taunt to stop other hazard setters and ice beam does decent damage. Though Froslass has no real counters, it is only good VERY early game so anything that hits more than once like Imanalt's girlfriend rhydon and spikes really arent all that threatening in RU. So my vote would probably be not ban, since even though it is very strong and difficult to stop, I just don't think it is strong enough to be pushed a tier up and is balanced because you can use it too.
@atomicllamas: angry midget
@atomicllamas: wait till we put up identification thread
@atomicllamas: and also until coil is up
:(
lost like 6 games in a row once with hax so garb ranking :[
I think even though Froslass has great niche in the metagame, I don't think personally that it is broken. It has amazing speed and amazing movepool, allowing it almost a guarenteed 2 layers of spikes up. Froslass also learns taunt to stop other hazard setters and ice beam does decent damage. Though Froslass has no real counters, it is only good VERY early game so anything that hits more than once like Imanalt's girlfriend rhydon and spikes really arent all that threatening in RU. So my vote would probably be not ban, since even though it is very strong and difficult to stop, I just don't think it is strong enough to be pushed a tier up and is balanced because you can use it too.
@atomicllamas: angry midget
@atomicllamas: wait till we put up identification thread
@atomicllamas: and also until coil is up
:(
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Galladium
Banned deucer.
Whilst Spikes in themselves are not broken, they provide incredible support for Pokemon that really appreciate the extra damage, like Sharpedo, which arguably pushes these Pokemon to the point of being broken. You also haven't mentioned Destiny Bond, which can potentially bring the match down to 5v5 with at least one layer of Spikes on the opponent's side of the field. It is also useful in removing counters to Pokemon like Hitmonlee (sorry if that's a bad example), which take advantage of these entry hazards. As someone above said, Froslass in itself is not broken, but it is unhealthy for the meta because of the support it brings (and a couple of other reasons too).
Also, since when have the ladder requirements been changed?
You're assuming that losing Rhyperior against Froslass in 1vs1 because Destiny Bond is a good deal; when really depends on the teams of both players and Rhyperior checks a lot of stuff, example what if your opponent uses a Specs Jolteon and you loses your Rhyperior against Froslass.
Also like atomicllamas said Froslass makes some obvious leads.
No, his point is that losing Rhyperior > losing Froslass. Sacrificing a Rhyperior to take out a Froslass is just stupid, if not game-changing.
You're sacrificing a huge source of tanking ability, attacking ability, and all-around usefulness to take out a single spiker and nothing else.
The spread I use is 3HKOed by 252 SpA Froslass Ice Beam, while Rhyperior has a 67.5% chance to OHKO, so if they are both led with, Froslass can choose to either take it down or get a layer of Spikes.
That Rhyperior loses against Specs Froslass /:
Anyways, Froslass usually uses bulk at least full HP, can use even a more defensive spread with Shadow Ball to beat opposite Froslass, only matter the extra SpA against Xatu.
Also in the case that Rhyperior is able to kill Froslass in turn 1, this user still can use Destiny Bond to die both.
Galladium
Banned deucer.
True, but as Froslass has so much difficulty switching in, leading with it is really the best way to set up maximum layers of Spikes.
Specs Froslass O_o tell me more!
yeah all 1% lol. Froslass has 80 SpA, so even with Specs, you are not dealing way too much damage.
Also, if Froslass is banned, I am going to start using Qwilfish, as it can run essentially the same set (just not as well)
Qwilfish and Froslass are two very different pokemon, Froslass is fast and frail (perfect for a suicide lead) and Qwilfish has a better defensive typing, intimidate and is way bulkier. If you use Qwilfish as a suicide lead you are doing it wrong.
I hope this is a joke....
Well the main problem I have with froslass is just that besides at least 1 layer of spikes, it almost crtainly guarantees a 5v5 matchup, which is waaaay more favourable for the Froslass user, since he doesnt mind oosing froslass when spikes are down.
The opposing team, however, is severely dented bylosing a memeber of their team. HO is probably the only exepption, but in general losing a pokemon really sucks, especially early in the game
The opposing team, however, is severely dented bylosing a memeber of their team. HO is probably the only exepption, but in general losing a pokemon really sucks, especially early in the game
Qwilfish is a decent suicide lead, at least in a meta without Froslass because this is by far superior no reason to not use, like suicide spike lead is outclassed: faster, beat xatu, spinbloker, cursed body.
I was a big Qwincy fan in BW RU2 and a lot of people know this but honestly in XY RU have lost their potential because: knock off, defog and cant deal with the physical top threats anymore like Escavalier, Rhyperior or Virizion.
I was a big Qwincy fan in BW RU2 and a lot of people know this but honestly in XY RU have lost their potential because: knock off, defog and cant deal with the physical top threats anymore like Escavalier, Rhyperior or Virizion.
EnerG218
;;
It is balanced because you can use it too
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