I had a pretty good battle a few minutes ago.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-126423959
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-126423959
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Ladder STABmons (the old one)
- Thread starter EV
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As someone who did quite well in the ladder (Alt DinaIsha: http://s30.postimg.org/cv0jw5jox/stabladder.png), I strongly recommend Point #3. There's Belly Drum, Shell Smash and Extreme Speed everywhere. It pretty much ends up being 'who gets to set up first' sort of thing.
In fact, one player, KROB, who was top 5 for quite a while, uses a Sableye and a full team of Normal Types with Shell Smash/Belly Drum/Extreme Speed with Fake Out thrown in the mix. I don't mean to undermine him (I never even faced him in the Ladder; just saw a match he was playing). but that exactly goes to show why this Meta is broken and needs fixing.
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Two really cool defensive mons I've found are Dragonite and Meloetta. Special Dragonite gains Oblivion Wing, which meshes fantastically with Multiscale. Meloetta meanwhile can finally put her absurd special bulk to good use with reliable recovery, while still packing a punch even uninvested thanks to the sheer power of Boomburst and the guaranteed SpD lowering of Serene Grace Luster Purge, and can spread status with Toxic, Glare, or Lovely Kiss.
Some example calcs of what Meloetta can tank:
+2 252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 138-163 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- 44.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Espeon Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 201-237 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Fist Plate Espeon Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 158-187 (39.1 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 321-378 (79.4 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 284-336 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta in Sun: 225-265 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And what she does in return:
0 SpA Meloetta Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 195-229 (71.6 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Meloetta Boomburst vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 292-345 (107.3 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Meloetta Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 150-177 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Meloetta Boomburst vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 223-264 (67.1 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Meloetta Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z: 237-279 (75.9 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Meloetta Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 166-196 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
BTW, Glare is easily the most overlooked addition to Normal-types and what I use on my Meloetta to help shut down special sweepers. More people should check it out.
Some example calcs of what Meloetta can tank:
+2 252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 138-163 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- 44.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Espeon Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 201-237 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Fist Plate Espeon Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 158-187 (39.1 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 321-378 (79.4 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 284-336 (70.2 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta in Sun: 225-265 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And what she does in return:
0 SpA Meloetta Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 195-229 (71.6 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Meloetta Boomburst vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 292-345 (107.3 - 126.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Meloetta Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 150-177 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Meloetta Boomburst vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 223-264 (67.1 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Meloetta Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Porygon-Z: 237-279 (75.9 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Meloetta Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 166-196 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
BTW, Glare is easily the most overlooked addition to Normal-types and what I use on my Meloetta to help shut down special sweepers. More people should check it out.
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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-126942722
Just gonna leave that replay here. Sure enough, I've had better battles, per se. But this one takes the cake.
Just gonna leave that replay here. Sure enough, I've had better battles, per se. But this one takes the cake.
EV
Banned deucer.
Sableye is the most important Pokemon in all if STABmons right now. Too bad it's weak to Fairy this gen.
cool, finally meloetta gets some love.
It can also run a Smash set w/Boomburst//Judgment (fight)/ExtremeSpeed/Psystrike//Shadow Ball
Last gen they had the Limited Normal Clause, which said that Pokemon can only get one normal attack that they wouldn't usually have. Should that maybe be implemented again?
Normals were mostly overpowered with their strong set up moves combined with things like extreme speed last gen, so I think they shouldn't be as much of a problem this gen because aegislash can beat many of them with it's defensive typing, while sableye shuts down 90% of set up sweepers in general.
EV
Banned deucer.
Just when Scrappykhan thought it could get to +6 and Espeed to victory, a Ghost/Steel type shows up with King's Shield to ruin its day. Dat EQ tho.
My point is, even if you miss out on predicting with one normal type, you can always have another chance with yet another. The Meta is becoming boring because of this. That's why I try not to use more than one Shell Smash/Belly Drum user, even when I keep losing to teams that are doing exactly the same. Once the steel types are out, you can Fake out + ESpeed with 4-5 mons and win a whole bunch of matches.
Limiting Set up moves to one mon in each team could very well make it interesting again.
Limiting Set up moves to one mon in each team could very well make it interesting again.
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Yeah, Normal hyper offense with multiple shell smashers or belly drummers is just a bit dominant right now, and I wouldn't mind a limit on set up moves per team. It should only apply to the high end ones, though. I don't think Calm Mind or Bulk Up need to be restricted, for example.
Hmm, I tried copying over my team from last time and realised Clefable was never Normal any more. Oh well, replaced it with Sylveon instead. Sawsbuck is still pretty decent, though lack of perma sun is annoying - Chlorophyll means you outspeed almost any non priority, then you can Spore, Belly Drum and go to town with Extremespeed/Horn Leech. Can't get past Steels easily, but that's why you're running it on a Sunny Day team with fire types, and Lum lets you beat Sableye.
If people really feel the need to reign in the metas sweepers, I'll suggest something that someone brought in the same conversation last gen that I thought was the best solution.
Each Pokémon can only learn ONE move of each of their types. This means that say, Scizor can learn one Bug move and one Steel move. This enables him access to both Shift Gear and Gear Grind, but not on the same set. Likewise, many of the Shell Smashers / Belly Drummers would no longer have access to Extreme Speed or Boomburst on the same set as their boosting move. There would still be some powerful threats - Boomburst Sylveon would still be a thing with Geomancy, but if it wants Boomburst it loses access to Shell Smash, Judgment, and Extreme Speed. This also would do nothing to reign in Talonflame.
In the end, I would much rather not have complex bans and simply ban the truly broken mons, but if the playerbase deems it necessary, that is my preferred option.
EDIT: this solution would kill my beloved Specially Defense Meloetta, whos entire set is new moves =(
Each Pokémon can only learn ONE move of each of their types. This means that say, Scizor can learn one Bug move and one Steel move. This enables him access to both Shift Gear and Gear Grind, but not on the same set. Likewise, many of the Shell Smashers / Belly Drummers would no longer have access to Extreme Speed or Boomburst on the same set as their boosting move. There would still be some powerful threats - Boomburst Sylveon would still be a thing with Geomancy, but if it wants Boomburst it loses access to Shell Smash, Judgment, and Extreme Speed. This also would do nothing to reign in Talonflame.
In the end, I would much rather not have complex bans and simply ban the truly broken mons, but if the playerbase deems it necessary, that is my preferred option.
EDIT: this solution would kill my beloved Specially Defense Meloetta, whos entire set is new moves =(
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I don't care for that solution because it doesn't do as much as you'd think to reign in many of the dominant set up sweepers (Sylveon, for example; while it doesn't like losing sashsmash, it can still just run hp ground and have fairly great coverage regardless because of the absurb bp of pixilate boomburst; or talonflame, which you already mentioned), and it also severely hurts the defensive pokemon that keep the set up sweepers in check. Sableye takes the biggest hit, losing most of the moves it uses in STABmons, meaning that it actually gets much worse at checking set up sweepers, so they're buffed almost as much as they're nerfed. Furfrou loses a large part of his usefullness because it has to spend it's one slot on a recovery move, meaning it can't spin or use a lot of other utility moves. Meloetta becomes basically unviable because it never uses a move it gets normally, while still overpowering things like Porygon-Z aren't nerfed very much (it can still run agility, nasty plot, and specs, and sylveon is usually a better smasher anyway, and also has geomancy).
Overall I still think the best solution is to ban the broken pokemon themselves on a case by case basis instead of making sweeping changes that affect more than they're meant to.
Overall I still think the best solution is to ban the broken pokemon themselves on a case by case basis instead of making sweeping changes that affect more than they're meant to.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-127224207
I think Heatran is really good in STABmons, and can wreck your team if you aren't prepared. Just look at it :O
I think Heatran is really good in STABmons, and can wreck your team if you aren't prepared. Just look at it :O
EV
Banned deucer.
That Heatran was amazing. Even without recovery that thing lasted forever.
Right now, STABmons is really an "eat or be eaten" scenario. I got to 1300 on the ladder using a standard team, and what do I see? 2 types of teams:
1) 4 sashsmashers (or 3 sashsmashers with a rocker) + scrappy khan + sableye
2) Double Unaware + sableye + rocker + fillers
You know something's wrong when a team built to only counter ONE TYPE OF TEAM gets you really high on the ladder. I personally won't be surprised if Sableye gets a 90% on the usage stats. The games just got so boring and repetitive, it was literally just, click shell smash, click espeed, or click fake out, click espeed, or click topsy turvy, click parting shot. I actually ended up running sash counter guts conkeldurr just to deal with sableye alone. It's so gimmicky, yet it puts in a lot of work versus most teams. Do we really have to use soundproof Exploud just to beat boomburst spammers? Do we really need an aegislash or sableye on every team?
Complaining aside, I feel this tier has the largest amount of untapped potential out of all the tiers. . The sheer amount of possibilities are what make this metagame great. The problem is that people aren't exploring far enough. But then again, the showdown community has already exploited what is probably the "best" and "most effective strategy". So we won't change until the metagame changes.
I really think these bans are a step in the right direction. Here are my thoughts about them:
Sylveon -> Specs Boomburst by itself is pretty manageable, but when you add sashsmash into the equation, you pretty much need a sasher (or lol sturdy mirror coat magnezone).
Talonflame -> I've never had a problem with talonflame, because 4 of my pokemon had extremespeed. But once bellyspeed and smashspeed are gone... well...
Porygon-Z -> see sylveon
Right now, my proposed solution is just to ban shell smash and ban belly drum Alright, alright, you may be going like, "but shell smash and belly drum aren't broken!!!!! look at azumarill and cloyster!!1!!!!" Let's be honest, though. Talonflame and Kangaskhan are WAY stronger than bellyjet azumarill. As long as you never stop setting up and attacking, your opponent won't stand a chance if they aren't using the same stuff as you. And let's face it. Almost every pokemon that gets shell smash also gets STAB espeed. Same with belly drum. At the same time, we're also eliminating annoying strategies like acrobatics on talonflame.
I understand that the majority of you may not agree with me, but I'm just sharing my view about what we should do (because we can't just do nothing)
1) 4 sashsmashers (or 3 sashsmashers with a rocker) + scrappy khan + sableye
2) Double Unaware + sableye + rocker + fillers
You know something's wrong when a team built to only counter ONE TYPE OF TEAM gets you really high on the ladder. I personally won't be surprised if Sableye gets a 90% on the usage stats. The games just got so boring and repetitive, it was literally just, click shell smash, click espeed, or click fake out, click espeed, or click topsy turvy, click parting shot. I actually ended up running sash counter guts conkeldurr just to deal with sableye alone. It's so gimmicky, yet it puts in a lot of work versus most teams. Do we really have to use soundproof Exploud just to beat boomburst spammers? Do we really need an aegislash or sableye on every team?
Complaining aside, I feel this tier has the largest amount of untapped potential out of all the tiers. . The sheer amount of possibilities are what make this metagame great. The problem is that people aren't exploring far enough. But then again, the showdown community has already exploited what is probably the "best" and "most effective strategy". So we won't change until the metagame changes.
I really think these bans are a step in the right direction. Here are my thoughts about them:
Sylveon -> Specs Boomburst by itself is pretty manageable, but when you add sashsmash into the equation, you pretty much need a sasher (or lol sturdy mirror coat magnezone).
Talonflame -> I've never had a problem with talonflame, because 4 of my pokemon had extremespeed. But once bellyspeed and smashspeed are gone... well...
Porygon-Z -> see sylveon
Right now, my proposed solution is just to ban shell smash and ban belly drum Alright, alright, you may be going like, "but shell smash and belly drum aren't broken!!!!! look at azumarill and cloyster!!1!!!!" Let's be honest, though. Talonflame and Kangaskhan are WAY stronger than bellyjet azumarill. As long as you never stop setting up and attacking, your opponent won't stand a chance if they aren't using the same stuff as you. And let's face it. Almost every pokemon that gets shell smash also gets STAB espeed. Same with belly drum. At the same time, we're also eliminating annoying strategies like acrobatics on talonflame.
I understand that the majority of you may not agree with me, but I'm just sharing my view about what we should do (because we can't just do nothing)
EV
Banned deucer.
No, it's right. They're still unreleased.
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