Other Counter That Pokemon! (Final Battle Friday @ 12 PM EST)

[Halcyon.]

Alright, round 7 is over! Sorry for the late end but I didn't get many votes this round and I was hoping I would get a few more if I waited :/ Anyway the tally is as follows:

LO Infernape: 5
Sash SD Terrakion: 1
HP Ice Terrakion: 1
EBelt Keldeo: 3
LO EQ Terrakion: 3
LO Thundurus: 2
LO Noivern: 1
Banded Talonflame: 1
Belly Drum Azumarill: 1

So Life Orb Infernape will be the fourth Pokemon for Team 2! Now it's back to Team 1 for round 8, where they have to pick both their 4th anf 5th Pokemon. Nominations begin now!

 

[Red Cat]

So it took Halcyon. so long because he didn't get many votes; that's unfortunate. And I thought it was just because he was lazy :) Anyway, on to my nomination:

Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Bulk Up
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

This is a strange variant of Talonflame’s Bulk Up set, but it shits all over Team 2 as it is now. Adamant Sharp Beak Brave Bird OHKOs both Greninja and Infernape. Talonflame can burn Mega Scizor and Dragonite and then start boosting on them and recover damage with Roost. This set will absolutely need hazard removal support to function, but Team 1 has the last pick, so we can just use that to counter Team 2’s hazard setter. Heatran and Rotom-W are really the only possible picks for Team 2 which don't mind taking a Brave Bird and don't care about being burned. Talonflame gives Team 1 some much needed priority and has 2/3 of Team 2 checked / countered at worst which makes it a great pick for Team 1.

 

[Homeslice]

I was going to post Mega Gardevoir, but then I realized BP from Scizor OHKO's it anyways. If there's still interest some one else can nominate it, I don't think it's worth the nomination anymore solely from that point. I still have some interest in Mega Heracross but it would be easy Talonflame bait which in some ways I guess could be a good thing because it lets us throw in Rotom-W to make a solid core with Ferrothorn but I don't think that should be a major selling point. I'm going to do some more searching around before I make a decision.

I said it last round, I'll say it again- we have three picks left. This team lacks a dedicated revenge killer, a mega, and a support (hazard setter) mon. While megas are not usually required, just keep in mind if you want a mega on team 1 you better find something that works and works pretty freakin well soon. In fact, I would argue it would have to work better than either a dedicated revenge killer or support mon.

This is the point where Team 1 needs to pick a hazard setter/remover and a revenge killer. It's these two picks. We want to dedicate the last pick to something that can completely overwhelm the majority of Team 2. I cannot stress enough how important this is. Feel free to nominate whatever you want, but it's pretty much essential that we use these two picks to grab our hazard remover/setter and revenge killer now. A simple band or life orb Talonflame seems to do the job now, in which case we probably want a spinner because breaking Multiscale on Dragonite is a very good idea in helping the team make him useless. Excadrill and Mega Blastoise both stand out. I would actually probably prefer Mega Blastoise because it can use Dark Pulse to break through ghosts, but at the same time it can't set hazards. This brings Team 1 to another issue- do we choose a defogger and then ignore the need to break Multiscale through rocks or do we use hazards and a spinner which leads to a crappy mon like Forretress or Donphan? We can simply put off a revenge killer until pick 6 and hope it can largely cover everything then (which isn't an awful idea, in fact it would probably work) and use these two picks to choose a spinner and a hazard setter, but if we choose a hazard setter then Team 2 is probably going to choose a defogger/spinner also to act as our support mons "counter", leading to us needing to scrap the idea of having a spinner in order to retain a spin blocker. We could also throw away a revenge killer (no. no. awful idea) in the notion of a spinner, hazard setter, and spinblocker. That's an awful idea. So where do we go from here? Everything leads us in a huge circle to awful ideas. This goes back to what I said about 2 nominations ago:

It's time to find something that's normally crappy that will work for us. We need to fit in hazards, a spinner, a spinblocker, and a revenge killer, along with added support we want along the way. Golurk is a ghost type who learns SR by tutor in 5th gen. He can block his own rocks and isn't a total pushover- 89/80/80 defenses aren't completely awful and an 124 attack stat is something to work with. Forretress, Donphan, and Sandslash all learn Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock. We're going to have to make a decision to either choose a crappy mon that gives us what we need or to decide what we need the most and drop one of the other. Stealth Rock helps Team 2 against Cube, however they probably will still run defog so dropping a spinblocker makes the most sense. Our last pick should probably be good at stopping whatever they have that carries defog instead. Just think about these things as you nominate, and try not to waste our last pick on us having to choose a support mon unless it walls everything on Team 2 (which won't happen.)

 

[Red Cat]

I was going to post Mega Gardevoir, but then I realized BP from Scizor OHKO's it anyways. If there's still interest some one else can nominate it, I don't think it's worth the nomination anymore solely from that point. I still have some interest in Mega Heracross but it would be easy Talonflame bait which in some ways I guess could be a good thing because it lets us throw in Rotom-W to make a solid core with Ferrothorn but I don't think that should be a major selling point. I'm going to do some more searching around before I make a decision.

I said it last round, I'll say it again- we have three picks left. This team lacks a dedicated revenge killer, a mega, and a support (hazard setter) mon. While megas are not usually required, just keep in mind if you want a mega on team 1 you better find something that works and works pretty freakin well soon. In fact, I would argue it would have to work better than either a dedicated revenge killer or support mon.

This is the point where Team 1 needs to pick a hazard setter/remover and a revenge killer. It's these two picks. We want to dedicate the last pick to something that can completely overwhelm the majority of Team 2. I cannot stress enough how important this is. Feel free to nominate whatever you want, but it's pretty much essential that we use these two picks to grab our hazard remover/setter and revenge killer now. A simple band or life orb Talonflame seems to do the job now, in which case we probably want a spinner because breaking Multiscale on Dragonite is a very good idea in helping the team make him useless. Excadrill and Mega Blastoise both stand out. I would actually probably prefer Mega Blastoise because it can use Dark Pulse to break through ghosts, but at the same time it can't set hazards. This brings Team 1 to another issue- do we choose a defogger and then ignore the need to break Multiscale through rocks or do we use hazards and a spinner which leads to a crappy mon like Forretress or Donphan? We can simply put off a revenge killer until pick 6 and hope it can largely cover everything then (which isn't an awful idea, in fact it would probably work) and use these two picks to choose a spinner and a hazard setter, but if we choose a hazard setter then Team 2 is probably going to choose a defogger/spinner also to act as our support mons "counter", leading to us needing to scrap the idea of having a spinner in order to retain a spin blocker. We could also throw away a revenge killer (no. no. awful idea) in the notion of a spinner, hazard setter, and spinblocker. That's an awful idea. So where do we go from here? Everything leads us in a huge circle to awful ideas. This goes back to what I said about 2 nominations ago:

It's time to find something that's normally crappy that will work for us. We need to fit in hazards, a spinner, a spinblocker, and a revenge killer, along with added support we want along the way. Golurk is a ghost type who learns SR by tutor in 5th gen. He can block his own rocks and isn't a total pushover- 89/80/80 defenses aren't completely awful and an 124 attack stat is something to work with. Forretress, Donphan, and Sandslash all learn Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock. We're going to have to make a decision to either choose a crappy mon that gives us what we need or to decide what we need the most and drop one of the other. Stealth Rock helps Team 2 against Cube, however they probably will still run defog so dropping a spinblocker makes the most sense. Our last pick should probably be good at stopping whatever they have that carries defog instead. Just think about these things as you nominate, and try not to waste our last pick on us having to choose a support mon unless it walls everything on Team 2 (which won't happen.)

I don't think Team 2 really needs a hazard remover at this point. Yeah, Dragonite is crippled by SR, but Team 1 will have it checked and countered so hard at that point that it really isn't worth it for Team 2 to devote a teamslot to helping keep Dragonite alive. Team 2 has Greninja and Infernape to check Landorus which is really the only purpose for Dragonite, so Dragonite is pretty much expendable at this point. Conversely, I don't think Team 1 really needs SR at this point. Dragonite is not a problem, and Greninja and Infernape are so frail that it makes more sense to find attackers which can OHKO them than to try to wear them down with SR.

Team 1 doesn't necessarily need a mega either. Like you said, the last pick is ideally for something which can blow right through Team 2. I think it is a good idea to save the mega slot for last just in case that something happens to be a mega like Charizard X or Gyarados. But if there is a non-mega which Team 2 is very weak to after it makes all of its picks, we can just skip the mega and pick that.

Team 1 has three picks left and really needs a hazard remover and a revenge killer. Team 2 has two picks left and needs a hazard setter and a revenge killer. Ultimately, Team 1 has the advantage here because it has the extra pick and has the mega slot available as an option. But first things first, Team 1 needs to focus on not getting destroyed by Mega Scizor and Infernape. I picked Talonflame since it solves this problem and gives Team 1 some revenge killing capability.

 

[Lolme]

Hello Guys!

EDIT (2):
Swithcing Agility for Roost:

Zapdos @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Roost

Zapdos packs enough power to OHKO or 2HKO the four members that Team 2 currently has. Stealth Rocks is needed to get the OHKO on Infernape as well as getting a clean 2HKO Dragonite.

thanks to Roost, Zapdos completely walls Dragonite and Scizor while pp stalling Infernape unless it gets some unlucky damage rolls or crits. Zapdos loses against Greninja's Ice beam but Ferro can handle Greninja and potentially T-wave for later revenge.

Max Def investment so it can take punishment from Scizor and Dragonite and even pp stall (as well as helping to take most priorities bar Ice Shard). With this spread, it can survive an unlikely +6 Bullet Punch and has the opportunity of surviving a 2HKO from Dragonite Dragon Claw considering Life Orb recoil.
64+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 152 Def Zapdos: 124-147 (38.6 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
Infernape can potentially 2HKO Zapdos with Fire Blast (if it lands) but only has 4 chances of hitting thanks to pressure and Zapdos can roost the damage taken.

With modest nature + LO the only thing in its way as now is Dragonite:
252+ SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 112-134 (29.7 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Ice vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Dragonite: 224-268 (59.4 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Everything else is OHKO after Rocks and Ice/Electric gives a decent coverage.

I didn't put EVs in speed as Zapdos can't out-speed Mr. Monkey nor Mr. Ninja while out-speeding Dnite and Scizor with no investment...and base 100 is quite respectable.

This set (Zapdos in General) gets walled by Pink Bulbs, Heatran, Ttar and special walls, and unfortunately Team 1 already has 2 Special attackers, forcing Team 1 to choose something like Terrakion to set up Rocks and threat Special Walls or AV Conkeldurr to deal with potential walls, Greninga and 1vs1 Infernape. Finally rapid spin/defog would be appreciated as Team 1 would already carry two pokes weak to Rocks.

 

[Homeslice]

I don't think Team 2 really needs a hazard remover at this point. Yeah, Dragonite is crippled by SR, but Team 1 will have it checked and countered so hard at that point that it really isn't worth it for Team 2 to devote a teamslot to helping keep Dragonite alive. Team 2 has Greninja and Infernape to check Landorus which is really the only purpose for Dragonite, so Dragonite is pretty much expendable at this point. Conversely, I don't think Team 1 really needs SR at this point. Dragonite is not a problem, and Greninja and Infernape are so frail that it makes more sense to find attackers which can OHKO them than to try to wear them down with SR.

Team 1 doesn't necessarily need a mega either. Like you said, the last pick is ideally for something which can blow right through Team 2. I think it is a good idea to save the mega slot for last just in case that something happens to be a mega like Charizard X or Gyarados. But if there is a non-mega which Team 2 is very weak to after it makes all of its picks, we can just skip the mega and pick that.

Team 1 has three picks left and really needs a hazard remover and a revenge killer. Team 2 has two picks left and needs a hazard setter and a revenge killer. Ultimately, Team 1 has the advantage here because it has the extra pick and has the mega slot available as an option. But first things first, Team 1 needs to focus on not getting destroyed by Mega Scizor and Infernape. I picked Talonflame since it solves this problem and gives Team 1 some revenge killing capability.

Team 2's strategy right now is very dependent on a lack of hazards. Half their team is reliant on the fact they can abuse speedy U-Turns to avoid their counters and put in something else to deal with it. Cube has no chance of outspeeding Greninja and is going to have to deal with a Scizor who can knock off it's leftovers, 2hko it with an unboosted BP (Fusion Bolt can 4hko if you're lucky) or set up for whatever comes in next. Ferrothorn can leech seed and twave all it wants, Scizor is at +4 minimum now and can 2hko Ferrothorn with it. Landorus can switch in and try to fight a +2 Mega Scizor that's going to beat it unless Landorus has above 70-83% health and Mega Scizor is below 60%. Mega Scizor can pretty much force out 2 of Team 1's mons on a strategy that's completely realistic and is dependent on them being able to spam U-Turn / switch freely without the worry of hazards. If you don't want hazards, that's fine, but make sure whatever's on team 1 has either a way to stop the U-Turn spam that's going to go on or be able to take a +2 Bullet Punch or Knock Off from Scizor and be able to OHKO. Talonflame might not even work because Brave Bird only does just under 50% and Bullet Punch has a 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and let's be honest, if Talonflame is chosen something with rocks will get picked. Hazards help under every circumstance and I don't see any reason to exclude them now.

I already stated megas were probably unneeded but I know there are some people with the state of mind that they're absolutely necessary on a team and I just wanted to reiterate they aren't. I don't think any mega right now would be worth a spot besides maybe Mega Blastoise for spinning capabilities or Mega Absol for easy revenge killing / magic bounce abuse. I agree with your thinking regarding megas.

Team 2 would love for us to ignore a hazard setter. Ice and Fire types to deal with Landorus and Ferrothorn is fine with them. Specially Defensive Moltres actually has no problem with Landorus and Ferrothorn, and right now we can deal with Cube easy between Mega Scizor and Infernape. Heck, a bug type can wall Ferry and Landorus right now so long as it's specially defensive, and I could probably make a usable set for Volcarona and maybe even Vespiquen based on how our picks turn out. Obviously the latter is an unrealistic expectation, but the point is there's lots of potential for counters that are weak to SR to be chosen.

Good point at the end, whatever we pick needs to fill the criteria needed and be able to deal with Mega Scizor and Infernape. I'm going to fine tune a potential set and then post it.

 

[Random Passerby]

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Taunt

Jellicent walls every Pokemon in Team 2 except Mega Scizor, which it loses to unless it burns Mega Scizor on the switch with Will-O-Wisp or Scald. It also has decent synergy with Ferrothorn, resisting Fire, Ice and Fighting attacks while Ferro takes the Electric and Grass attacks aimed at Jellicent. Jellicent can also pivot for Landorus because it can take Ice and Water attacks aimed at it while Lando is immune to Electric. Jellicent provides Team 1 with a Water, Ice, Fire and Fighting resist while walling and burning stuff with Scald and Will-O-Wisp, which nothing in Team 2 particularly enjoy. While it might get trapped by Bisharp or Tyranitar, even those mons won't enjoy a burn. Taunt is there to shut down slow Pokemon that Team 2 might pick such as Ferrothorn, who can lay down hazards or Leech Seed Jellicent.

EDIT: Yes, this might not be a hazard setter / hazard remover or sweeper but unless we get something to switch into Fighting or Ice attacks, we are going to get swept. Also, we get another pick later for a hazard setter (do we even need a hazard remover? All our Pokemon are neutral to Stealth Rock - even if we do, we can get Mega Scizor as a Defogger later)

 

[vyomov]

I'd like to nominate something that can easily pressure most of what Team 2 has right now:

Azumarill@Assault Vest
EVs: 16 HP/252 Atk/240 SpD
Ability: Huge Power
Nature:Adamant
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall
- Knock Off
- Play Rough

AV Azumarill does a number of most of Team 2 barring M-Scizor(which can easily be countered by any decent pick with fire-type coverage), walling Greninja, Infernape and Dragonite while easily KOing all three. AV Azumarill can also punch holes through Team 2 and allow for a late-game Cube sweep, while also complementing Lando-I. This pick adds bulk while also creating huge problems for Team 2 that we can continue with the next pick(something like SR Chomp), while also appreciating the T-Wave support from Ferrothorn. The set is standard(from the OU Analysis) and maximizes special bulk with a little investment in HP as well.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Hmm, for some odd reason, I haven't been getting alerts for this thread :/ Regardless, here are my thoughts on the nominations:

Talonflame: I really like this nomination, and in my opinion it's the best so far. However, it's quite easily to wall, so we're going to need to be to be careful when making our next two picks.

Zapdos: A very, very interesting set. However, I feel as though this thing doesn't get very many set up opportunities, and with no recovery, it will most likely be worn down very easily due to its Stealth Rock weakness.

Jellicent: Interesting, though it won't be too hard for Team 2 to pick a Pokemon to wall this thing. Also is helpless against a Scizor who's set up a Swords Dance. +2 28+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 400-472 (99.2 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Azumarill: Not really sure what this does for use TBH. Mega Scizor walls this thing to hell and back, and it'll be pretty easy for Team 2 to wear us down with U-Turn from both Greninja and Infernape.

 

[vyomov]

Azumarill: Not really sure what this does for use TBH. Mega Scizor walls this thing to hell and back, and it'll be pretty easy for Team 2 to wear us down with U-Turn from both Greninja and Infernape.

Essentially, it gives Team 1 another win condition, as once Mega Scizor is removed nothing else can really stop it on Team 2 - and Team 2 don't have space for another Azumarill counter/check with only one pick left.
Some calcs for AV Azumarill vs Team 1:
240+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 492-578 (172 - 202%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 16 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 87-105 (25.2 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

240+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 184-217 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
64+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 129-152 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

240+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Infernape: 234-276 (79.8 - 94.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Infernape: 462-546 (157.6 - 186.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 130-153 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[LightningLuxray]

Essentially, it gives Team 1 another win condition, as once Mega Scizor is removed nothing else can really stop it on Team 2 - and Team 2 don't have space for another Azumarill counter/check with only one pick left.
Some calcs for AV Azumarill vs Team 1:
240+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 492-578 (172 - 202%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 16 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 87-105 (25.2 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

240+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 184-217 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
64+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 129-152 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

240+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Infernape: 234-276 (79.8 - 94.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Infernape: 462-546 (157.6 - 186.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 130-153 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Hmm, yes, I see what you mean (Especially considering I nominated this thing a few rounds ago.) I'm just wondering why this would do any better than, say, Talonflame, who isn't walled by one of Team 2's members?

 

[vyomov]

I'm just wondering why this would do any better than, say, Talonflame, who isn't walled by one of Team 2's members?

Indeed, my idea was actually to combine it with a pick next round with good fire-type coverage and speed(tbh I had Scarf Chomp or Rocky Helmet SR Chomp in mind) to round off the coverage and compensate for the lack of speed, although Talonflame is a nice option too :)(although if Talonflame wins I might nominate AV Azumarill next round too)

 

[Lolme]

Zapdos: A very, very interesting set. However, I feel as though this thing doesn't get very many set up opportunities, and with no recovery, it will most likely be worn down very easily due to its Stealth Rock weakness.

Indeed not what you would see in any common OU team, but that's what I like about this project! finding niche pokemons and sets to annihilate an already known team.

A more conventional option with about the same function as this Zapdos set would be Mega Manectric. The downside are that Team 1 would be using its mega slot, it needs to run timid to out-speed Greninja and although it is not OHKO by Dnite's EQ, it loses unless Dnite has its multiscale broken before hand.

Regarding your concerns about being worn down, I can think of the next options:
- To replace Agility with Roost as I said in the nomination. This force Zapdos out against Greninja but walls Scizor and Dnite as well as making it almost impossible for Infernape to get a 2HKO.
- To replace LO + thunderbolt with Wise Lens + Thunder...lol...talking about an unconventional set. This takes out the recoil damage while maintaining enough power to get its job done. Note that hazards and prior damage would be much more important as with this changes, Zapdos only has 37% chance to OHKO Infernape after rocks.

E-belt is not really an option as Zapdos would need to much support in the form of prior damage to threat Team 2 as much as the other options.

This is a strange variant of Talonflame’s Bulk Up set, but it shits all over Team 2 as it is now. Adamant Sharp Beak Brave Bird OHKOs both Greninja and Infernape. Talonflame can burn Mega Scizor and Dragonite and then start boosting on them and recover damage with Roost. This set will absolutely need hazard removal support to function, but Team 1 has the last pick, so we can just use that to counter Team 2’s hazard setter. Heatran and Rotom-W are really the only possible picks for Team 2 which don't mind taking a Brave Bird and don't care about being burned. Talonflame gives Team 1 some much needed priority and has 2/3 of Team 2 checked / countered at worst which makes it a great pick for Team 1.

I really like your nomination but I was wondering, is Bulk up really necessary for any OHKO that Flare Blitz or a second Brave Bird can not get?

 

[Lether]

Charizard @ Charizardite x
Blaze > Tough Claws
Jolly nature
EVs: 16hp, 252atk, 240Spe
Dragon Dance
Fire Punch
Dragon Claw
Roost

At the moment, DD Zard-x rips through team 2, while the atk boost isnt necessarily needed (unless you get to +2 when Dnite has a 75% chance to be OHKO'd through multiscale), the speed boost stops it from being revenge killed by greninja and infernape
240+ speed obviously outspeeds greninja and infernape at +1, but also prevents it from being revenged by scarf Hydreigon (it could be a valid threat in this project) as well as outspeeding scarf Lando-T and Excadrill. Max atk for power and the rest are put into HP. I am open to changing the EV spread if someone can provide a good reasoning for it.
Basically, M-Scizor is a free switch in, as it needs +6 to have a chance of OHKOing on the switch with knock-off, and is roasted by fire punch without a boost. Greninja can't switch in as it is KO'd by Dragon Claw (hasty nature) and Infernape has an 18% chance to be KO'd on the switch as well, while Dnite falls to 2 Dragon Claws. Also of note is:

64+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This would basically force a heatran/azu/quagsire/sylveon pick for team 2 (as they would need something to wall Zard rather than RK and sac something every time it switches in). Heatran and Quag aren't really options to take on Ferrothorn, Lando and Kyu-B. Sylveon can't do anything to Ferrothorn as well. This leaves CB Azu to beat Ferrothorn and have a shot at beating Lando and Kyu-B as well, and CB Azu should be easy enough to wear down throughout the match taking at least 70% from switching in to Ferro's Power Whip, Lando Earth Power or Kyu-B Fusion Bolt with max HP, more if it wants to run jolly and speedcreep Kyu-B.

 

[G-Von]

Hmm, I'm really tempted to nominate Keldeo once again since it has a good match up against both teams. The thing is Team 1 needs a way to break Dragonite's Multiscale so a SR setter is pretty necessary, but when would be the right time? I don't think the last pick should be the time for it so one of these next two picks should be used for it. The thing is that Team 2 is set up so that any Stealth Rock user will be hit very hard and Greninja, Infernape, and Mega Scizor puts such great pressure on every Stealth Rock user I could possibly look up. I would love to use Smeargle but he isn't a good thing to use in a project in which you can just straight up counter him. The only thing I can think of at the moment is if we don't use the 4th pick as a hazard setter, than to simply use it on a mon that practically counters Mega-Scizor and Infernape that would give a desired hazard setter problems. I'm thinking along the lines of Victini since Knock Off can't OHKO after SR with 48 ev's in HP. Another suggestion that just came to mind was Mega Manectric. Its much, much faster and for the most part even stronger. It can't handle Infernape as well but it outspeeds and OHKO's Greninja but M-Manectric can't switch in since there's a good chance it gets OKHO'd after SR.

Yea so i'll probably nominate the lure Victini set or Mega Manectric when I have an opportunity, but if someone feels the need to do it themselves than feel free to do so you swagger jackers.

 

[insanelegend]

Well, just saw this thread today and it looked like a great idea. For Team 1, I feel like a Scarfed Darmanitan would be great. It can destroy the other team and outspeeds them all short of priority. Here is my set:

Darmanitan @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sheer Force
Adamant nature
Evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Hp
-Flare Blitz
-U-Turn
-Earthquake
-Rock Slide

252+ Atk Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 336-396 (114.6 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Rock Slide vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 130-153 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Rock Slide vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 260-306 (68.9 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
64+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 139-164 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
64+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 346-408 (98.5 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Darmanitan U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 246-290 (86 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 409-483 (143 - 168.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO ( If not Water type)
28+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 84-99 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 4HKO

There are all the revlevant Calcs. Should probably change Evs slightly but don't really know what good it will do. This set will smash through most of Team 2 after some Stealth Rock Damage. It is also faster then their whole team and acts as a great revenge killer. It can punch huge holes in the team and wreck havoc.

For Team 2, I think a Scrafty should do some damage. Here is the set I would use.

Scrafty @ Assualt Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Adamant nature
Evs: 252 Atk / 252 Hp / 4 SpD
-Ice Punch
-Knock Off
-Drain Punch
-Fake Out

-1 4 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scrafty: 68-81 (20.3 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 210-248 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Scrafty: 239-283 (71.5 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Scrafty Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 308-364 (96.2 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO ( Guranteed KO after Fake Out)
-1 4 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scrafty: 73-87 (21.8 - 26%) -- 3.2% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 126-150 (35.7 - 42.6%) -- 91.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This set can easily take their first three pokemon while hard to counter outside of Fairy-Types who are beaten by Mega-Scizor. It has lots of bulk and can hit a variety of threats very hard. Also has nice +3 priority to hit faster threats with a little health left if Dragonite and Mega-Scizor don't want to come in or can't. Hopefully people choose these pokemon to aid their respective teams.

Edit: Only doing Team 1 currently

 

[LightningLuxray]

Well, just saw this thread today and it looked like a great idea. For Team 1, I feel like a Scarfed Darmanitan would be great. It can destroy the other team and outspeeds them all short of priority. Here is my set:

Darmanitan @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sheer Force
Adamant nature
Evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Hp
-Flare Blitz
-U-Turn
-Earthquake
-Rock Slide

252+ Atk Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 336-396 (114.6 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Rock Slide vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 130-153 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Rock Slide vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 260-306 (68.9 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
64+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 139-164 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
64+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 346-408 (98.5 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Darmanitan U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 246-290 (86 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 409-483 (143 - 168.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO ( If not Water type)
28+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 84-99 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- 91.8% chance to 4HKO

There are all the revlevant Calcs. Should probably change Evs slightly but don't really know what good it will do. This set will smash through most of Team 2 after some Stealth Rock Damage. It is also faster then their whole team and acts as a great revenge killer. It can punch huge holes in the team and wreck havoc.

For Team 2, I think a Scrafty should do some damage. Here is the set I would use.

Scrafty @ Assualt Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Adamant nature
Evs: 252 Atk / 252 Hp / 4 SpD
-Ice Punch
-Knock Off
-Drain Punch
-Fake Out

-1 4 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scrafty: 68-81 (20.3 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 210-248 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Scrafty: 239-283 (71.5 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Scrafty Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 308-364 (96.2 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO ( Guranteed KO after Fake Out)
-1 4 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scrafty: 73-87 (21.8 - 26%) -- 3.2% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 126-150 (35.7 - 42.6%) -- 91.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This set can easily take their first three pokemon while hard to counter outside of Fairy-Types who are beaten by Mega-Scizor. It has lots of bulk and can hit a variety of threats very hard. Also has nice +3 priority to hit faster threats with a little health left if Dragonite and Mega-Scizor don't want to come in or can't. Hopefully people choose these pokemon to aid their respective teams.

We're only making nominations for Team 1 right now.

 

[Inspirited]

I nominated something O_O

Slowbro @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Fire Blast
- Slack Off
- Thunder Wave

vs

Dragonite would be the target of Toxic but Slowbro can also attempt to ruin Multiscale with a burn from Scald instead. Slowbro cannot do much offensively to Dragonite otherwise, although Toxic sort of rectifies this problem.

vs

Slowbro resists all of Greninja's moves except U-Turn which can be softened by a burn from Scald. Since team 2 now has 2 users of U-Turn, I figured Thunder Wave might be useful for slowing these down a bit.

vs

Slowbro only fears Knock Off the first time it is used or after a Swords Dance. Scizor cannot set up on Slowbro because of Fire Blast.

vs

Slowbro is an Ape counter and can slow Ape down with Thunder Wave.

 

[G-Von]

Manectric@Manectite
EV's: 252 SpA/252 Spe/4 Def
Trait: Lightningrod
Timid Nature
-Volt Switch
-Thunderbolt
-Flamethrower
-Hidden Power Ice
The deciding factor on why I am opting for Manectric>Victini is because of Victini's SR weakness. It would put too much pressure on us to keep SR off the field for Team 1, as if having Cube wasn't a big enough reason. Regardless, I still think a defogger/rapid spinner is necessary for the next pick. Anyway, this is a pretty standard Mega Manectric. Volt Switch creates a VoltTurn core with Landorus to keep momentum. STAB T-bolt to punish shit and to kill Greninja, Flamethrower for that Mega Scizor over there, and HP Ice for Dragonite, even if it is like a...3hko without SR -___- Because they do not have any electric type attacks, I am very tempted to use Static>Lightningrod since all of Team 2's pokemon have at least 1 attack that makes contact. Of course, there are many things that can stop Manectric cold. This includes the blobs, Snorlax, quite a number of fairy types, Rotom-H, and possibly more. Not only that, but Manectric is pretty frail, having a low chance of being OHKO'd by Greninja w/o SR. All pokemon are present with faults and I think these faults of Manectric should not hold it back from being a strong contender for Team 1's 4th pokemon.

 

[Red Cat]

I'll state my thoughts about the nominations:

Talonflame: My nomination. It wrecks Team 2 as I have stated before, but it requires Rapid Spin / Defog support.

Zapdos: It is not very powerful and is easily worn down by Stealth Rock and Life Orb without Roost. Dragonite checks it if Multiscale is intact. It is hard to find a turn to set up Agility with Infernape, Greninja, and Dragonite all presenting at least some threat to it.

Jellicent: It is annoying, but it has little offensive presence and is destroyed by Mega Scizor. I just don't think it does that much for Team 1 since Team 2 can wall it or find something to kill it without too much difficulty.

Azumarill: It lacks power, it is worn down easily since it has no recovery, and is walled by Mega Scizor.

Mega Charizard X: It does a pretty good job against Team 2, but needs Defog / Rapid spin support. Also, Team 2 probably won't let Charizard get free set-up turns if Infernape or Greninja are in which leaves Charizard vulnerable to getting checked by Dragonite. With Fire Punch and a Jolly nature, Charizard is not going to hit as hard as it normally does, so less bulky threats like Gliscor are in play for Team 2. Lastly, Charizard takes up the mega slot.

Scarf Darmanitan: It is the most offensive pick here and can kill anything on Team 2 with good prediction. But it does require good prediction to work which is a con. It is also worn down quickly between Flare Blitz and SR and cannot take a hit.

Slowbro: It walls Team 2 to hell and back. I nominated this a while ago and Team 2 still doesn't have an answer for it. It doesn't need as much support as the others which is a plus, but it is not very offensive and it is slow which adds to the lack of speed for Team 1. I would go with Thunder Wave as the last move since it cripples offensive picks and Slowbro already has Scald for residual damage.

Mega Manectric: It is fast and gives Team 1 momentum, but it is easily worn down and doesn't take hits very well. It has trouble Mega Evolving in front of Greninja and Infernape, and Dragonite can check it with Multiscale intact. Once it has Mega Evolved though, it gives Team 2 big problems if Dragonite does not have full health.

As Team 2 is right now, Talonflame and Slowbro completely dominate Team 2. However, it may be a good idea to not actually pick these two. Team 1 should instead save these as "phantom picks". I call them phantom picks since Team 2 has to counter them even if Team 1 does not pick them. Team 1 has the last pick, and if Team 2 is still weak to Talonflame or Slowbro after making all of its picks, them Team 1 can pick one of these two for an easy win. If Team 2 does counter them with its 5th and 6th picks, then Team 1 just picks something else. It may be best for Team 1 to actually pick something which counters potential responses to Talonflame, Slowbro, and any other phantom picks we come up with.

 

[Homeslice]

If you haven't used it already, this is a good place to look for general ideas of what could be helpful. It's not a perfect idea, because at some point you have to choose something weak to one mon but a good choice against the rest of the team. Speaking of which, we're at that point in the project. It's okay if your submission doesn't perfectly check or wall Landorus or Dragonite because we've already handled that.

Basically just posting to say it's probably time to let go of trying to do well against Dragonite in favor of absolutely destroying Infernape and Mega Scizor. Expect this to be edited with a nomination soon.

Edit: Found something

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Rash Nature
- Air Slash
- Heat Wave
- Superpower
- U-Turn

Basic Scarf set, lets us revenge everything on Team 2 bar Dragonite with minimal worry about self KO through recoil and is only 25% weak to Stealth Rock unlike Talonflame. Going mixed also allows us to break through both pink blobs. Going to look for a more ideal EV spread and nature in regards to damaging Dragonite. Probably going to switch Hurricane for Air Slash because of accuracy concerns and Infernape is already frail enough. If you're wondering why Scarf was chosen, Greninja outspeeds it by 2 points and OHKO's with Ice Beam, but Scarf allows us to break through and hit his normal typing, ice typing, or psychic typing for SE damage. Haven't done a calc on pure water yet but my assumption is he's frail enough to the point we break through with something. I would like suggestions on Air Slash vs Hurricane now in order to find an EV spread better suited for one over the other.

Edit 2:
Statistically there was no need for an alternate EV spread, and Air Slash over Hurricane only makes the difference of accuracy and secondary effect. Hurricane could also be checked with a Prankster Sunny Day user theoretically. Changed Mild nature to Rash because Ice Shard is physical but I didn't run any calcs regardless.

 

[Random Passerby]

Let's see what we have here:
Talonflame: Yes, it does beat everything on Team 2. However, odds are Team 2 will pick something which hard counters it, preventing it from accomplishing much while wearing it down with Rocks or damage while switching in. It also requires Defog / Rapid Spin support, severely restricting our options later since we will only have 2 picks left, one for hazards while the other for Spinning / Defog. (unless we pick Excadrill, Donphan or Forretress which has poor synergy with the team anyway)

Zapdos: Same issue with Talonflame, needing Rapid Spin / Defog support except it is worn down even easier since it has no Roost and carries a Life Orb. It also needs to set-up to defeat Greninja. Even after setting up, it might be low on health and Revenged by Mega Scizor.

Jellicent: My nomination. Walls everything on Team 2 but is helpless against Mega Scizor. You might get lucky to burn it while it comes in or Taunt it to prevent a Swords Dance/Roost but you can't do any damage to it.

Azumarill: A fine choice that handles 3 out of 4 Team 2's pokemon. However, it is slow and has no reliable recovery so it might get worn down. Alas, it loses to Mega Scizor.

Mega Charizard X: Same problems as Talonflame and Zapdos. It does a pretty good job against Team 2, but needs Defog / Rapid spin support. Also, it is hard to find a free turn to set up that precious Dragon Dance with Greninja and Dragonite (without Rocks) hitting you for at least neutral damage. It does wipe the floor with Mega Scizor though.

Scarf Darmanitan: High risk, high reward pick. Yes, it can destroy Team 2 but it is also easily worn down with Stealth Rock and Flare Blitz. It cannot take a lot of hits either so you need to be good at prediction for this.

Slowbro: A worthy choice, this thing walls everything on Team 2. It also doesn't give free switches / set-up turns to Mega Scizor, who can either be burned by Scald or hit hard by Fire Blast. However, it is not very powerful and could be walled or taken advantage of by Team 2. I would pick Thunder Wave to slow down their U-turners (Infernape and Greninja).

Mega Manectric: Gives team 1 a fast attacker than can give momentum but it loses to Greninja and has troubles against Infernape if it hasn't Mega Evolved yet. It is also frail. Other than this, it can give team 2 a headache if Rocks are up.

Scarf Tornadus-T: An unusual set that (similar to Darmanitan), can cause huge problems to Team 2 if you predict correctly. U-turn can also give free momentum while recovering 1/3 of its HP, meaning it is harder to wear down. However, it is frail and requires good prediction skills. I would go for Hurricane over Air Slash, which is pathetically weak though.

 

[Red Cat]

I want to elaborate more on my phantom pick concept. Talonflame and Slowbro completely destroy Team 2 right now, but are not that difficult to counter themselves, so picking them for Team 1 now may not be that good of an idea. However, even if Team 1 does not pick Slowbro or Talonflame with picks 5 and 6, Team 2 has to counter them otherwise Team 1 can pick one of them with its last pick.

Because of this, it may be a good idea to look at what stops Slowbro and Talonflame and have Team 1 make picks which give those potential picks problems. My Talonflame set has trouble with Thundurus, Heatran, Terrakion, Chansey (Brave Bird recoil will kill Talonflame), Rotom-W, Quagsire, Slowbro, Zapdos, and Suicune to name a few. Slowbro has trouble with Thundurus, Clefable, Heatran (can Toxic Slowbro and doesn't take too much from Scald), Chansey, Rotom-W, Zapdos, Suicune, and Sylveon.

Based on this list, it may be a good idea to pick stuff which beats Thundurus, Heatran, Terrakion, Chansey, Rotom-W, Zapdos, and Suicune. Chansey is already countered by Ferrothorn and Suicune will lose to it unless it gets a Scald burn. The others all look like big weaknesses for Team 1. All of the nominations here seem to have trouble with either Heatran or Thundurus. Darmanitan is the only one which threatens both, but it has a lot of other flaws which makes it a shaky pick in my opinion.