Survey Discussing Future Tiering Policy

[Emmy2]

Add an option between "suspect both Charizard individually" and the mod that reveals the megastone being carried by Charizard. I believe they both need to be suspected (not necessarily banned), but if in the event that neither fail the suspect test and get banished to ubers, knowing which one it is definitely makes them less broken.

Hazards aren't "easy to remove" on the types of teams that Deo-D is on. Anyone who thinks they are have not played against a well-executed HO team. A good player with a good Hyper Offense team will put enough offensive pressure on a player to make sure that those hazards never leave, or that there are severe consequences for doing so. Bisharp helps with this job, but even just putting some ridiculous wallbreaker or something out on something that runs Defog can force someone to decide if they would rather have their hazards gone and their only counter/check to another of their opponent's Pokemon dead, or to leave hazards up and preserve the check.

 

[sidakarya]

The problem with revealing the megastone of Charizard is that it's altering the game-mechanics, which is only done as a last resort (sleep clause).

imo the biggest suspects I see from that list are the Deoxyses and the genies. Deo-S and -D are easily the most abusable things in this metagame, to the point of being uncompetitive (at least, in Deo-D's case) and a big part of what makes offence so stale. (And that's not to mention, that horrifying new Baton Pass team, that relies heavily on Deoscreens.) The genies also just ridiculously powerful - they only got all the better in Gen 6, thanks to the Knock Off boost and Thundy's defiant. Just about nothing can safely switch in, especially to Landorus. Thundy is kind of borderline in that a lot of teams use it to check offensive threats, but I could see a case for it being broken, or at least unhealthy in the manner of Genesect.

This meta certainly has the potential to be very balanced (especially with the bans of the first suspect tests), but we're still far from it. To be honest, I feel that the suspect testing is far too slow (I mean we took what, two months to nerf Baton Pass, possibly to be stretched out even longer...?) and with ORAS and a new meta-shift coming in a few months, time is here of the very essence. We shouldn't be too conservative with testings/bans, and this I feel, was the biggest thing that stifled the development of the meta in the last four months.

 

[Karxrida]

The problem with revealing the megastone of Charizard is that it's altering the game-mechanics, which is only done as a last resort (sleep clause).

imo the biggest suspects I see from that list are the Deoxyses. They're easily the most abusable things in this metagame to the point of being uncompetitive (at least, in Deo-D's case) and a big part of what makes offence so stale. (And that's not to mention, that horrifying new Baton Pass team, that relies heavily on Deoscreens.) The genies also just ridiculously powerful - they only got all the better in Gen 6, thanks to the Knock Off boost and Thundy's defiant. Just about nothing can safely switch in, especially to Landorus. Thundy is kind of borderline in that a lot of teams use it to check offensive threats, but I could see a case for it being broken, or at least unhealthy in the manner of Genesect.

Sleep Clause only exists because it was created in the first Stadium game, so it technically isn't a mod.

 

[Tomahawk]

Hi, I'm here to suggest something drastic. I thought this would be a relevant place for it, so yeah. Let's try to use the same tiering system that kokoloko uses for UU. It faced a lot of opposition at first, but after a while people recognized that really it was quite a good tiering system that focused on just creating a balanced metagame, instead of the focus being on trying to ban as little as possible. It still does that, but it is also way more efficient. Now, I feel it is really important we do something like this because quite honestly right now XY OU is a totally unbalanced metagame, and if we keep testing in a similar way to how we do now, we'll end up with the same results as BW, continuous testing the whole generation with a terrible metagame as a result. Now, for example a good starting point would be banning this list of Pokémon (pretty similar to your list):

Charizardite X
Landorus
Thundurus
Deoxys-S
Deoxys-D
Bisharp (or Knock Off)
Aegislash
Drizzle
Excadrill
Mawilite
Pinsirite
Talonflame
Charizardite Y
Kyurem-B

This seems like a good starting point to me, but you can change some things if you want.

Now, most people I've talked with about this, replied that the biggest issue with this was Smogon's reputation, and while already a lot of people dislike/hate Smogon's "ban-happy" tiering system, even more will do that with this system. Well, personally I feel like this is really not nearly as important as getting a balanced metagame, but a possible solution for this would be creating a Suspect ladder, with "standard" OU being the old system, and "suspect" OU using this system. Then, for Tournaments we can decide what to use, but honestly I feel that would just use the "suspect" OU as standard because that is the main goal of this system, creating a balanced metagame.

I'm not sure if there is more for me to say right now, but if you have a question feel free to ask, and I'll respond (just tag me or quote this post or something similar).

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Hi, I'm here to suggest something drastic. I thought this would be a relevant place for it, so yeah. Let's try to use the same tiering system that kokoloko uses for UU. It faced a lot of opposition at first, but after a while people recognized that really it was quite a good tiering system that focused on just creating a balanced metagame, instead of the focus being on trying to ban as little as possible. It still does that, but it is also way more efficient. Now, I feel it is really important we do something like this because quite honestly right now XY OU is a totally unbalanced metagame, and if we keep testing in a similar way to how we do now, we'll end up with the same results as BW, continuous testing the whole generation with a terrible metagame as a result. Now, for example a good starting point would be banning this list of Pokémon (pretty similar to your list):

Charizardite X
Landorus
Thundurus
Deoxys-S
Deoxys-D
Bisharp (or Knock Off)
Aegislash
Drizzle
Excadrill
Mawilite
Pinsirite
Talonflame
Charizardite Y
Kyurem-B

This seems like a good starting point to me, but you can change some things if you want.

Now, most people I've talked with about this, replied that the biggest issue with this was Smogon's reputation, and while already a lot of people dislike/hate Smogon's "ban-happy" tiering system, even more will do that with this system. Well, personally I feel like this is really not nearly as important as getting a balanced metagame, but a possible solution for this would be creating a Suspect ladder, with "standard" OU being the old system, and "suspect" OU using this system. Then, for Tournaments we can decide what to use, but honestly I feel that would just use the "suspect" OU as standard because that is the main goal of this system, creating a balanced metagame.

I'm not sure if there is more for me to say right now, but if you have a question feel free to ask, and I'll respond (just tag me or quote this post or something similar).

I don't play UU because I don't like having the metagame changing drastically every fucking week. It sucks and you can't really call the meta balanced like that. I say no.

The current system works, it just needs to be faster. Like, did it really need to take 3 months to nerf BP?

 

[Tomahawk]

I don't play UU because I don't like having the metagame changing drastically every fucking week. It sucks and you can't really call the meta balanced like that. I say no.

The current system works, it just needs to be faster. Like, did it really need to take 3 months to nerf BP?

Can you call the current OU tier balanced? I say no. It is a shit metagame. However, I don't think the current system really works well for this metagame because there are just way too many things that should be gone for it to be balanced, and right now I'd say there aren't things that really stand out anymore. So nothing really feels that broken anymore, because a lot of things are. Also, if you keep with the current system, taking 1 suspect test per ban pretty much, you'll take much longer than the current system to have a balanced tier, probably never. Because you will still have pretty much everything on that list (bar maybe Deoxys and Landorus?) in OU.

 

[sidakarya]

Honestly, I could get behind something similar to the system in UU, perhaps in reverse as UU was initially done. I'm of the sentiment, that a balanced meta needs to be achieved as soon as possible, and the latest suspect tests is something clearly a lot of people are unsatisfied with, what with the pace and lack of flexibility.

That is not to say, that the suspect test as we have it can't be improved. If we do stick with the current formula, it certainly needs to go much faster, and if the Baton Pass test taught us anything, needs to be more flexible.

 

[Hypercut]

Megaevolution damages are clearly higher than weather powered attacks, and the matchup in XY with all this threats is more evident than BW.
Imo if all megaevolution will be banned from ou (yeah all, not just something), we can reduce the power creep in this metagame in ou tier.
Guys, this metagame requires no skill to be played, seriously, and obviously is all a coinflip with speed tiers. Do you want this for almost 2-3 years, like BW? That was a shitty metagame, with weather that dominated the scene till the end, and bans that weren't made, for example in the last BW suspect, Keldeo remained in OU, but not just this. Weather had to be banned from ou, no joke.
Think guys, a metagame without megaevolutions and without some shits like deoxys-d, deoxys-s will be better.

 

[000xxx]

Charizardite X
Landorus
Thundurus
Deoxys-S
Deoxys-D
Bisharp (or Knock Off)
Aegislash
Drizzle
Excadrill
Mawilite
Pinsirite
Talonflame
Charizardite Y
Kyurem-B

This seems like a good starting point to me, but you can change some things if you want.

Now, most people I've talked with about this, replied that the biggest issue with this was Smogon's reputation, and while already a lot of people dislike/hate Smogon's "ban-happy" tiering system, even more will do that with this system. Well, personally I feel like this is really not nearly as important as getting a balanced metagame, but a possible solution for this would be creating a Suspect ladder, with "standard" OU being the old system, and "suspect" OU using this system. Then, for Tournaments we can decide what to use, but honestly I feel that would just use the "suspect" OU as standard because that is the main goal of this system, creating a balanced metagame.

I'm not sure if there is more for me to say right now, but if you have a question feel free to ask, and I'll respond (just tag me or quote this post or something similar).

What you are suggesting is cutting out >1/4 of current ou. Saying this makes this more balanced is going a bit far. If anything, it makes what gets countered by above mons used more, which makes them op, which gets them banned. While I do agree with some of these (deo-d, char x), it seems like any more than a few would make the game barren and boring. Part of what makes the game fun is so many options. Including all of the above. (volcarona would support you tho)

 

[sidakarya]

Megaevolution damages are clearly higher than weather powered attacks, and the matchup in XY with all this threats is more evident than BW.
Imo if all megaevolution will be banned from ou (yeah all, not just something), we can reduce the power creep in this metagame in ou tier.

Problem with that is that it's not all mega-evos causing this - no one can say with seriousness that say, M-Abomasnow or M-Banette are threatening, let alone broken. It's only the worst offenders that are the problem, and of those three are banned, and of the rest there are at most four (and of those, only the Charizards seem even likely to get the boot)

What you are suggesting is cutting out >1/4 of current ou. Saying this makes this more balanced is going a bit far. If anything, it makes what gets countered by above mons used more, which makes them op, which gets them banned. While I do agree with some of these (deo-d, char x), it seems like any more than a few would make the game barren and boring. Part of what makes the game fun is so many options. Including all of the above. (volcarona would support you tho)

While I do agree that some of these are fairly extreme, bear in mind, that the UU system was built around re-introducing potentially broken things, and things like Hydreigon and M-Houndoom indeed did later get unbanned. I wouldn't take that list to mean "things that definitely should be banned forever and basta".

 

[Tomahawk]

What you are suggesting is cutting out >1/4 of current ou. Saying this makes this more balanced is going a bit far. If anything, it makes what gets countered by above mons used more, which makes them op, which gets them banned. While I do agree with some of these (deo-d, char x), it seems like any more than a few would make the game barren and boring. Part of what makes the game fun is so many options. Including all of the above. (volcarona would support you tho)

Well, keep in mind that you aren't 100% banning any of these, they are just potential bans. You ban them at first, then you retest them in an already balanced metagame. That lets you make a much better decision if that Pokémon itself is broken or not. Also, for most of these goes that banning them actually gives you more options for teambuilding, for example banning Talonflame + Pinsirite means you don't have to use a Flying-type resist on every team, and banning stuff like Landorus and Charizard Y means you don't need to carry a counter to them on every team because they are so limited.

 

[AM]

Yeah so good survey but some obvious flaws that people mentioned already. Also where it says "Regarding the following Pokemon, on a scale of 1-10, to what degree do you believe they should be considered for a suspect test where.." what was the premise of the options chosen? I understand some things like Deo-D and Deo-S, but how was a conclusion actually reached for things like M-Venusuar and Excadrill? Also I'm definitely going to disagree with the showing which Charizard it is in team preview. It's really just breaking mechanics to another level that really makes no sense unless someone brings up a good argument for it.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

My problem with the UU tiering system being implemented in OU is for the development, as well as new players joining. OU is where people come because they get to use the cool pokes they used in game, but they don't want to deal with the overpowered ubers. It's the most popular tier for a lot of reasons, and one of those reasons is the popularity of the top tier threats.

Now, if the UU way of doing things were the only way to get a balanced meta game in a reasonable amount of time, I'd still support it, but UU can do it because they're used to the system of losing the top threats, while I'm not sure if it'd be good for OU.

And Hypercut , lol no.

 

[Hypercut]

Yeah, not all megaevolutions are threatening, and your examples are right, but still i think that megaevolutions are the most stupid things ever introduced.
Mega venusaur for example is mediocre in a stall because of its lack of having an item, also is status weak, that debilitate it.
Yeah, four offenders are banned (mega blaziken, mega kangaskhan, mega lucario, mega gengar), but still shits like mega charizard x, mega charizard y, mega tyranitar, mega pinsir, mega gyarados, mega scizor, mega mawile, are already in game. For example mega mawile after +2 boost in atk ohkoes skarmory! Its not good man.
And Tomahawk is right, in every team you MUST have at least 1 flying resistor, because of Talonflame and Mega Pinsir. In XY OU teambuilding, you're limited to put at least 3-4 pokèmons that are checks/"counters" for the majority of powerhouses of XY OU. In the other 2 slots you have to maintain the synergy of the team or you lose before starting a battle.

And Hypercut , lol no.

No what? Megaevolutions are part of 6th gen meta? Is this what you think? Ok, so you prefer to have a bad matchup in every match? You can't counter anything in this meta, because you haven't enough space in a team to counter all the shits.

 

[Tomahawk]

My problem with the UU tiering system being implemented in OU is for the development, as well as new players joining. OU is where people come because they get to use the cool pokes they used in game, but they don't want to deal with the overpowered ubers. It's the most popular tier for a lot of reasons, and one of those reasons is the popularity of the top tier threats.

Now, if the UU way of doing things were the only way to get a balanced meta game in a reasonable amount of time, I'd still support it, but UU can do it because they're used to the system of losing the top threats, while I'm not sure if it'd be good for OU.

And Hypercut , lol no.

Well, like I said: 1. Implement two seperate ladders, one for people who want this and another one for people who are there to play competitively, which is the main target audience for Smogon. And really, the arguments you brought up I don't think are fair because a balanced metagame is in my opinion the top priority and the only thing that should be thought about when tiering pretty much, not if people get to use their in-game teams on the OU ladder.

 

[sidakarya]

No what? Megaevolutions are part of 6th gen meta? Is this what you think? Ok, so you prefer to have a bad matchup in every match? You can't counter anything in this meta, because you haven't enough space in a team to counter all the shits.

This has actually been a problem ever since Gen 4. It's just what happens, when there are more Pokemon introduced there are more threats. Functionally, Megas aren't that much different from a separate Pokemon. It's definitely not like weather, which was such a wide-sweeping thing, that it codified whole playstyles.

 

[Adversary]

Yeah, not all megaevolutions are threatening, and your examples are right, but still i think that megaevolutions are the most stupid things ever introduced.
Mega venusaur for example is mediocre in a stall because of its lack of having an item, also is status weak, that debilitate it.
Yeah, four offenders are banned (mega blaziken, mega kangaskhan, mega lucario, mega gengar), but still shits like mega charizard x, mega charizard y, mega tyranitar, mega pinsir, mega gyarados, mega scizor, mega mawile, are already in game. For example mega mawile after +2 boost in atk ohkoes skarmory! Its not good man.
And Tomahawk is right, in every team you MUST have at least 1 flying resistor, because of Talonflame and Mega Pinsir. In XY OU teambuilding, you're limited to put at least 3-4 pokèmons that are checks/"counters" for the majority of powerhouses of XY OU. In the other 2 slots you have to maintain the synergy of the team or you lose before starting a battle.

bro' megaevo were made to attract all the uncompetitive bitch who were waiting for something like this to ruin this game, nevermind
hope that smogon staffers will make the right choice

 

[AM]

This has actually been a problem ever since Gen 4. It's just what happens, when there are more Pokemon introduced there are more threats. Functionally, Megas aren't that much different from a separate Pokemon. It's definitely not like weather, which was such a wide-sweeping thing, that it codified whole playstyles.

This. As more Pokemon are implemented in the future realistically you won't be able to counter every threat in the meta. Sure maybe one playstyle can top another from time to time but honestly there's only so much one can do and I believe that's what we're trying to go for without gutting basically so much stuff by say, getting rid of megas.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Extrasesory Greninja, Psychic Landorus-I and Kyurem-B deal with M-Venusaur well, and so do pretty much all flying and psychic types. It also has a ton of issues like no passive recovery, vulnerability to WoW and mediocre coverage. I seriously can't fathom why M-Venusaur would even be in that poll, let alone be suspected.


Ok now this is just getting silly.

Dude psychic etc are terrible niche moves and are generally useless outside of mega Venu.
Sound familiar? Its what basically everyone was saying about things like taunt and haze for baton bass?

Double standard much?

Do agree Mega Venu is not really broken tho.

If we were to do a mass ban I believe we shouldn't do everything on that list and instead should only ban maybe 5 or so things.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Megaevolution damages are clearly higher than weather powered attacks, and the matchup in XY with all this threats is more evident than BW.
Imo if all megaevolution will be banned from ou (yeah all, not just something), we can reduce the power creep in this metagame in ou tier.
Guys, this metagame requires no skill to be played, seriously, and obviously is all a coinflip with speed tiers. Do you want this for almost 2-3 years, like BW? That was a shitty metagame, with weather that dominated the scene till the end, and bans that weren't made, for example in the last BW suspect, Keldeo remained in OU, but not just this. Weather had to be banned from ou, no joke.
Think guys, a metagame without megaevolutions and without some shits like deoxys-d, deoxys-s will be better.

252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 427-504 (105.6 - 124.7%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 357-420 (88.3 - 103.9%)
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 354-417 (87.6 - 103.2%)
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%)
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 288-339 (71.2 - 83.9%)
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 279-328 (69 - 81.1%)

The only mega that hits harder than Specs Kingdra in Rain, who is not even the hardest hitting Rain attacker, is Mega Houndoom who is pretty bad. Mega Medicham comes close (who actually has the strongest non-choice/weather boosted attack in the game so I should've just stopped there lol,) but it's really far from OP.

And while some megas are certainly worth at least taking a look at, banning all of them is a terrible idea. Thing is, quite a number are just not very good, hard to handle or OP on any level. Furthermore, a lot of megas serve as a check to others things, so getting rid of them could unbalance the meta, actually; e.g. Mega Venusaur and Azumarill, Aerodactyl and Birdspam, etc.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Well, like I said: 1. Implement two seperate ladders, one for people who want this and another one for people who are there to play competitively, which is the main target audience for Smogon. And really, the arguments you brought up I don't think are fair because a balanced metagame is in my opinion the top priority and the only thing that should be thought about when tiering pretty much, not if people get to use their in-game teams on the OU ladder.

And like I said, if it were the only way to achieve a balanced meta game in a reasonably amount of time, I'd be 100% behind it, but I don't think it is, so the negative affects of confusing new players and messing with the system to potentially cripple it's popularity can't be ignored. It's worth discussing, but I think splitting the tier would do more damage to the community than having an unbalanced metagame for a little bit longer would.

Megaevolution damages are clearly higher than weather powered attacks, and the matchup in XY with all this threats is more evident than BW.
Imo if all megaevolution will be banned from ou (yeah all, not just something), we can reduce the power creep in this metagame in ou tier.
Guys, this metagame requires no skill to be played, seriously, and obviously is all a coinflip with speed tiers. Do you want this for almost 2-3 years, like BW? That was a shitty metagame, with weather that dominated the scene till the end, and bans that weren't made, for example in the last BW suspect, Keldeo remained in OU, but not just this. Weather had to be banned from ou, no joke.
Think guys, a metagame without megaevolutions and without some shits like deoxys-d, deoxys-s will be better.

Blaming mega evolution as a whole is just like blaming legendaries for Arceas, stupid. We'll evaluate each individually and come to a conclusion based on how they affect the meta, not if they get some unique label.

 

[Tomahawk]

And like I said, if it were the only way to achieve a balanced meta game in a reasonably amount of time, I'd be 100% behind it, but I don't think it is, so the negative affects of confusing new players and messing with the system to potentially cripple it's popularity can't be ignored. It's worth discussing, but I think splitting the tier would do more damage to the community than having an unbalanced metagame for a little bit longer would.

Fair enough, though I don't really agree with you here. For one, I don't really think the current way is really gonna achieve a balanced metagame in a reasonable amount of time, so if we want we have to use another system, and since kokoloko has used this one effectively in UU I think it's a good fit. Also, splitting the tier seems fine, I don't really see how it damages the community since the new tier would just be the OU that we use, namely ladder on, use for tournaments and discuss on the forums, but the other one is also still there for people who don't like it (so not really competitive based). I don't think a lot of people from the competitive community would still play the old OU too. But, that's just an idea to fix that one problem too, it can be solved differently.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Fair enough, though I don't really agree with you here. For one, I don't really think the current way is really gonna achieve a balanced metagame in a reasonable amount of time, so if we want we have to use another system, and since kokoloko has used this one effectively in UU I think it's a good fit. Also, splitting the tier seems fine, I don't really see how it damages the community since the new tier would just be the OU that we use, namely ladder on, use for tournaments and discuss on the forums, but the other one is also still there for people who don't like it (so not really competitive based). I don't think a lot of people from the competitive community would still play the old OU too. But, that's just an idea to fix that one problem too, it can be solved differently.

Oh, my bad. I hate the current way too. We need to speed up big time.

But like all communities, smogon survives due to a steady stream of new players. A bad first impression of not knowing the difference between the OU's could potentially hurt that. Or it could not, I'm just throwing out food for thought.

 

[Hypercut]

Weathers in 5th gen were terrible to stop, especially the rain, but its not the right topic to discuss this :\
What i want to say, is that megaevolutions have raised a lot the actual XY OU power creep, and even there are megas like Mega Venusaur, Mega Aggron and so on, the positive effects are very few to balance the negatives, and in the future games (Omega Ruby, Alpha Sapphire) there will be other megaevolutions, so what can we do when the power creep will raise again? We'll surrender, simply, and we'll tell that isn't possible to ban 1/4 of the metagame in order to save that.

Blaming mega evolution as a whole is just like blaming legendaries for Arceas, stupid. We'll evaluate each individually and come to a conclusion based on how they affect the meta, not if they get some unique label.

Arceus is a different speech lol.
Evaluate the megaevolutions individually? Requires too much time, we have to hurry if we want to save the ou tier, seriously.

 

[sidakarya]

Really, it all depends on whether you think an inordinate amount of unhealthy threats exist, which is a highly subjective question. A lot of people are saying, only five or six or so of the worst offenders need to be removed, to make a decent meta, in which case the current system can still work (but needs to be much faster, obviously). If we expand that list to something like the above one, then the more drastic option should be more sensible.