VGC Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer - Mark II

[Chipndip]

So in my last battle my Tyranitar vs my opponent's Tyranitar, both our last Pokémon and his at half HP and mine at full HP, I get flinched 3 times in a row by Rock Slide and lose. I can't say I had bad luck there?

I am still looking for guides to read or videos to watch to help me out.

There is no guide for RNG roles. Frankly, Pokemon's a VERY tough game. The best you can do is remove yourself from sitations where you rely on chance. I also feel like I have issues when it comes to luck-based scenarios, but that's the game. It's gonna irritate you, but if you're hanging on a "barely" 50% ratio, you probably need to look into your team building or your own player tendencies. Try to avoid speed ties and aim for more offensive options that can nab quick OHKOs before you get thrown into chance situations. That's what I've started doing for my team building process.

Now, you still need defensive options, but in your case, I'd suggest highly offensive "nukes" to just wipe pokes off the board.

 

[rcade216]

My original post was not meant to put anyone down or suggest I should not be losing to those I lost to. I knew when I was outplayed.

I understand my opponent and I both have the same 90% accuracy and 30% flinch chance with Rock Slide. Although my Jolly Tyranitar does only have 92 SPD EVs, which watching the video of it he had Life Orb, so most Life Orb Tyranitars run 252 EVs in SPD. I was running Weakness Policy, which after a Dragon Dance I am usually fine on speed, but I did not get a DD setup this time.


Maybe frustrating would have been a better way to say things.

And the flinching thing had me thinking about a battle I had on Showdown. My opponent started out with 2 flinch in a row with Rock Slide.

I used Mr. Mime with Icy Wind and he told me that Icy Wind on Mr. Mime was trash. Then he proceeded to Dragon Claw Mr. Mime.

After 2 rounds of Icy Wind my Tyranitar hit a flinch on his team and he called me a hax loser and just quit the battle.

And like you said in this instance I remembered the bad luck.

I had atleast 7 disconnects during this June challenge, which could have changed my records, not saying it would have done much, since potentially it would have been 7 wins.

But yes a frustrating weekend all around and I am more disgusted in my own game play.

I just want to break this hurdle. I am just around .500 every tournament. My 10 year old son, in the Junior Division, was at 1681 and at my highest point I was 1527 in this last tournament.

And again I am sorry if the post sounded like I was putting people down for how they play. That was not my intent.

 

[Sidfrid]

About stats change upon mega evolution:
I know that speed is recalculated and the end of every turn, for instance chorophyll will not be active on your venusaur the same turn you mega evolve your charizard, but do this apply to charizard special attack increase? does he need to wait a turn to use overheat from a base 159 special attack? or the change on stats upon mega evolution are applied instantly?

Asking because was searching for a good "fast mode" and found that manectric have a good base speed, he can outspeed jolly garchomp and use HP ice before chomp made a move..... but manectric must be timid.... on the other hand modest mega manectric outspeed chomp. The question is the same as charizard, do I have to mega evolve and protect with my modets manectric to avoid that chomp EQ him to death? or when I mega evolve mega manectric boosted speed come in play?

 

[rcade216]

Mega form happens before the round really starts. Chlorophyll on the other hand as an ability does not activate on the same turn that Drought or Sunny Day starts.

So M-Manectric will have his speed increase as soon as he mega evolves.


Look at it as how Intimidate drops attack before the round ends, stat boost also happen at the time of use and not the next round.

 

[Hobo Joe]

Mega form happens before the round really starts. Chlorophyll on the other hand as an ability does not activate on the same turn that Drought or Sunny Day starts.

So M-Manectric will have his speed increase as soon as he mega evolves.


Look at it as how Intimidate drops attack before the round ends, stat boost also happen at the time of use and not the next round.

That's wrong, the speed is checked before the round begins. MegaMom still has the base 90 speed during the turn it mega evolves

So in short, speed is checked right before the round starts. Other stats are checked during the Pokemons' attacks.

 

[rcade216]

I have attacked Noivern first with my M-Manectric, which Manectric is base 105 SPD, Noivern is base 123 SPD, and M-Manectric is base 135 SPD.

 

[Sidfrid]

I guess is like rcade216 says (but I want to analyze Hobo Joe answer too)

Ok, lets theorymon a little more:
I think that althought the game apply stats change right away but pokemons order to make a move are set in stone once the turn started and are recalculated (the move order and not the stats) when the next turn start.

For instance lets take Swaggerlum strategy, according to the most famous users they like to make their Swagger user one speed point above (or under if they use trick room) of the Lum pokemon so the boost apply inmediately.

From that example, do this mean (about the pokemons move order set in stone) that when garchomp mega evolve althought is would be a base 92 speed the same turn he mega evolve he will STILL attack before a non-scarfed salamence with a base attack of 170 Dragon Claw to the face?

(If that is true a Tailwind support would be super neccesary with mega chomp)

 

[rcade216]

I am not 100% sure. I always figured the reason the Mega evolution happened first was to recalculate the round.

By the move order being set at the start of the round my M-Manectric should not be hitting a Noivern first until the next round.

So now I am wondering what else could have occurred that I would move first if the SPD stat does not get the boost until round 2.

Could Noivern have a negative SPD nature and no SPD EVs? I guess really it could have a neutral Nature and just a few EVs added, but still be slower than Manectric, but faster than most other Dragons.

So I cannot argue one way or the other now.

 

[Sidfrid]

I thought a little more on this and think I have the right order of the things:

For simplicity lets assume a 1v1 battle between a Jolly Garchomp holding a Garchompite and a Haban berry Timid Salamence

First Scenario

(lets call this) Turn 0:
The game check speed stats and decide who move first on turn one. This check take place when I choose which move to perform

Turn 1:
Garchomp decide NOT TO MEGA EVOLVE and Dragon Claw Salamence, Salamence survive the hit (assuming no critical) and retaliate back with Draco meteor OHKO Garchomp.

Second Scenario

Turn 0:
The game check speed stats and decide who move first (the same as in First Scenario)

Turn 1:
Garchomp decide to mega evolve AND use Dragon Claw on Salamence, if the move order are set in stone Mega chomp will move first and attack mence with Dragon Claw OHKO'ing it regardless of the Haban berry.

3rd Scenario

Turn 0:
The game check speed stats and decide who move first, but since I selected "mega evolve" together with an attack the new speed stats is use in the calculation.

Turn 1:
Garchomp mega evolve but is now slower than mence, mence Draco meteor him to oblivion OHKO'ing Mega Garchomp before he can even move.

I think that 3rd scenario is the right one, since it seems as the most equilibrated (and logical), and since Gamefreak try to balance the game (I truly believe that Aegislash is the reason why steel types got nerfed) this is the most plausible one, because if not that is a HUGE and exploitable gap for competitive pokemon.

to round things up: the move order is made when each player have already selected what actions to perform. This order is set on stone until the turn is over (this will explain why chlorophyll does not activate the same turn you use sunny day/drought).

(and on my original question, according to 3rd scenario, M-manectric will attack first than garchomp)

 

[Mymble]

Speed only changes the turn after Mega Evolving, on the turn it Mega Evolves Mega Manectric has a base Speed of 105.

 

[zywzyx]

Why are people even discussing this? Are we back in September/2013?

 

[The Legend Waker]

Since this is a Nintendo-fundamented metagame, could we possibility see even a small glimpse of OHKO moves in Gen 6's first ever VGC tour on August? Bonus points if hax occurs. X]

FYI: I'm not talking about moves that with the right stats and target (sometimes involving boosting) are able to knockdown Pokémon with only one shot, I'm talking about honest to Arceus, true to heart OHKO moves.

 

[lttatter]

Hello! i need some help finding my 6th team member for my VGC team in october. I used the June international challenge as a sort of test to my team. they are as follows

Jolly
Pickpocket
Focus Sash
252 Attack/ 252 speed

Icicle Crash
Ice Shard
Night Slash/ Brick Break
Fake Out

Notes: Im torn between night slash and brick break, fastest fake out user out there

Adamant
Intimidate (Mold Breaker)
Gyaradosite
156 HP/ 168 Attack/ 184 Speed
Waterfall
Taunt
Dragon Dance
Earthquake/ Stone Edge

Notes: I use this set as a flexible Gyarados from back in gen 4 with some modifications. The EV's let it outrun base 115's without mega evolving after one d dance, the bulk would help it survive a life orb zapdos thunderbolt with wacan berry if i remember correctly, but if it mega evolves it reduces damage anyway by 1/2 anyway. The idea is to mega evolve only when needed. Many times i've been able to avoid SE stone edge and rock slides when because of the careful decision and also reduces damage from gengar/ agislash shadowball. stone edge gives the right coverage but earthquake works well with mold breaker. In a way it is almost like having a seventh pokemon in the party.

Timid
Levitate
Choice Scarf
252 speed and spAttack
Thunderbolt
Volt Switch
Trick
Hydro Pump

Notes: This Rotom lets it outrun a lot of common pokes but most notably, trick has allowed me to cripple defensive support pokemon like Meowstic and porygon2

Imipish
Prankster
Leftovers
252 hp/ 244 def / 4 speed / 4 sp defence
Foul Play
Safeguard
Thunderwave
Swagger

Notes: the evs maximize defences but the added speed point will let it outrun the more common 252/252 spread of other kelefkeys by one speed point letting it get safeguard up before opposing thunderwaves. the 4 in spDefece are there because the way stats are calculated at lvl 50, it will give it one more point to sp defence as opposed to nothing in defence. Safeguard and swagger allow me to boost the attack of my partners with swagger multiple times. plus i can test my luck sometimes and swagger a physical threat into taking itself out through HAX with confusion and paralyze

Adamant
Scrappy
Kanganite
252 hp/252 attack
Return
Power Up punch
Suckerpunch
protect

Notes: This set is almost standard, With the support from klefkeys Twaves and with rotom, speed was opted out. I also use protect as bait since everyone generally fears Mega Kskahn , I can open up with it first turn. Everyone generally runs Fakeout, so faster fakout users will try to fake it out first, then double target her. I can fake that im running fake out to open an opportunity for my parter to attack or t wave a threat.

Now this is where i need help is in choosing a final partner that will round the team off. I originally ran T-tar with protect to change weather to something more favorable to me, but weather isn't as prevalent as it once was in gen 5 thanks to the nerf and then just ended up as baggage, another thing i noticed was that intimidate users ran rampant against my team and seriously caused issues. so now im trying Defiant bisharp adamant max speed and attack with sucker punch protect quick guard and iron head but I find this doesn;t completely solve my problems because i don;t use it as much and it just adds to this teams fighting weakness.

Anyone have any thoughts on who my final team member should be? A special Flying type maybe like togekiss?

 

[ethan06]

That team is really weak to Grass-types, particularly Ferrothorn as Kangaskhan can't hurt it. Running Rotom-Wash and Mega Gyarados puts you at an immediate disadvantage against strong Grass hits like Power Whip and neither have any neutral hits on them. Weavile isn't a lot of help as it's not really able to hurt anything that isn't weak to it's STABs (as far as Grass-types go, Ludicolo, Mega Abomasnow, Mega Venusaur and the aforementioned Ferrothorn can tank Icicle Crash and hit back hard/setup on it). An easy fix for this would be to swap Rotom-Wash over to Rotom-Heat: it's essentially the same idea, except you can threaten Ferrothorn and Amoonguss and help keep them from preventing Kangaskhan sweeps. As for your sixth member, assuming you make the recommended change to Rotom I think adding a defensive Grass-type of your own would greatly improve your defensive synergy, creating a solid Fire-Water-Grass core between Rotom, Gyarados and your Grass-type. Amoonguss is probably your best bet: With Spore and Rage Powder support, Amoonguss is really good as a partner for your Kangaskhan (and your Gyarados) and a good check to opposing Kangaskhan if it holds Rocky Helmet.

Amoonguss @ Rocky Helmet
Bold
Regenerator
252 HP/252 Def/4 Sp. Def (not optimised)
-Spore
-Rage Powder
-Giga Drain
-Protect/Sludge Bomb/Synthesis

Rotom-H @ Choice Scarf
Timid
Levitate
252 Sp. Atk/252 Spd/4 Def
-Thunderbolt
-Volt Switch
-Trick
-Overheat

 

[lttatter]

Amoonguss @ Rocky Helmet
Bold
Regenerator
252 HP/252 Def/4 Sp. Def (not optimised)
-Spore
-Rage Powder
-Giga Drain
-Protect/Sludge Bomb/Synthesis

Rotom-H @ Choice Scarf
Timid
Levitate
252 Sp. Atk/252 Spd/4 Def
-Thunderbolt
-Volt Switch
-Trick
-Overheat

Thanks I never thought of amoongus, Gunna give your recomendation a shot!

and I did run Rotom-H at first, but the SPa drop from overheat severely shortened rotoms damage if i did not trick away the scarf. and Hydro pump would 2HKO just about any garchomp who would not be able to hurt me with it's coverage moves as opposed to rock slide. And although ferrothorn did cause me a few headaches, my SwaggerKey would be able to boost KSkahns attack to take it out. and i would never Mega evo gyarados when ferrothorn is around. Gdos is a situational mega as well is Kskahn with scrappy.

What about HP Fire defensive Zapdos with chatari berry? it too would solve fighting/intimidate problems and help cover other pokemon while still letting me run Rotom-H without much issue

 

[rcade216]

Speed only changes the turn after Mega Evolving, on the turn it Mega Evolves Mega Manectric has a base Speed of 105.

That has been stated already. However as I run a Mega Manectric I know I have moved first against Noivern and a Talonflame using Flare Blitz, as well Ice Beaming Greninja.

The only possible reasoning I can come up with that I attacked first is maybe their lack of SPD EVs.

I wish I did not do a video cleanup after the Think Fast challenge.

 

[SoulRed12]

That has been stated already. However as I run a Mega Manectric I know I have moved first against Noivern and a Talonflame using Flare Blitz, as well Ice Beaming Greninja.

The only possible reasoning I can come up with that I attacked first is maybe their lack of SPD EVs.

I wish I did not do a video cleanup after the Think Fast challenge.

As turn order is determined before any pokemon does anything (hence why many Manectric run Protect even in singles so they don't get hit before their speed boost), that would be the only probable explanation. I have seen 252 HP / 252 Atk Adamant Talonflames (people assume they'll just be spamming Brave Bird), and while I haven't seen 0 Speed Noivern or Greninja, I'd imagine with all the players out there trying out "creative" sets (or looking to take advantage of people's assumptions) it wouldn't be nonexistent.

Or they could have had 252 Speed EVs but been Modest/Adamant with less than ideal speed IVs.

 

[rcade216]

My original reply was based off my battle experience. I have never read any info on how the stat changes were handled with mega evolution. Serebii I don't recall seeing anything on their main site, but I did find link to a site while googling.

Being that the window for how I would be moving 1st is so small, I will have to make more of a note with it in future battles.

 

[Mr.E]

To be precise, turn order is decided at the very beginning of a round. Speed, like other stats, can be changed mid-round and is relevant in case of an attack like Gyro Ball which uses it to calculate damage. Abilities change, in that say Banette Mega Evolving will gain Prankster and interact as such with Skill Swap and friends. They simply don't alter the turn order if they change mid-round, which is immutable except for Quash in doubles/triples.

 

[Rukatsu]

Hi.

I wanted to ask if Mienshao is really good for VGC.
Is this moveset fine?

Liushao (Mienshao)

HP 65
Attack 125
Defense 60
Sp. Atk 95
Sp. Def 60
Speed 105

EV: 252 ATK / 252 SPE / 4 SPD

Ability: Inner Focus
Item: Life Orb
Moves: Fake Out
Low Kick
U-Turn
Wide Guard/Quick Guard

 

[rcade216]

I have not seen a lot of Mienshao used, but they are pretty effective at what they do. Usually as a Quick Guard version. I have seen most Mienshao using Feint over Low Kick. Feint removes Protect, Detect, Spiky Shield, King's Shield, Crafty Shield, Wide Guard, and Quick Guard. It has a speed priority of 2, but is not stopped by Quick Guard.

Most run Regenerator when using U-Turn. Helps with HP recovery.

 

[Mymble]

Hi.

I wanted to ask if Mienshao is really good for VGC.
Is this moveset fine?

Liushao (Mienshao)

HP 65
Attack 125
Defense 60
Sp. Atk 95
Sp. Def 60
Speed 105

EV: 252 ATK / 252 SPE / 4 SPD

Ability: Inner Focus
Item: Life Orb
Moves: Fake Out
Low Kic
U-Turn
Wide Guard/Quick Guard

Mienshao @ Focus Sash
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick / Drain Punch
- Fake Out
- Quick Guard / Wide Guard / Rock Slide / Feint
- Detect / Quick Guard / Wide Guard

This is the standard set. Other than U-turn yours looks looks fine though.

 

[Rukatsu]

Remember that Quick Guard/Wide Guard/Detect accuracy drops to 50% if used consecutively after each one.
So, in the end it would be better to take just one of those. Quick guard seems to be the best choice because of all the talonflames out there...

Also, i'm not sure if heals like Drain Punch/Regenerator would be useful because... its not like Mienshao could take on attacks he's weak to, or even those of neutral damage (Flare Blitz, Outrage, etc)

 

[Mymble]

Remember that Quick Guard/Wide Guard/Detect accuracy drops to 50% if used consecutively after each one.
So, in the end it would be better to take just one of those. Quick guard seems to be the best choice because of all the talonflames out there...

Also, i'm not sure if heals like Drain Punch/Regenerator would be useful because... its not like Mienshao could take on attacks he's weak to, or even those of neutral damage (Flare Blitz, Outrage, etc)

Quick Guard and Wide Guard can be used consecutively without failing, however do lower the success rate of Protect and Detect. This generation the Failure rate was dropped to 33% percent after one use.

 

[Chipndip]

I would use Drain Punch if you're using Focus Sash Mienshao.

-HJK can break your own sash if you miss.
-Drain Punch can RESTORE your sash if it didn't go off, but you still took damage. It doesn't happen too often, but that did save me in a few games. Hitting Mega Kanga or Tyranitar and getting your health back to 100% is great if you're a sash user.