Leftovers and Defensive Items

[ZhengTann]

This thread will be moderated to keep discussion focused. ​

It started with a kiss:

A minor proposal but Leftovers is pretty much useless, even pokemon with the ability Gluttony will use any other item instead. I propose we boost the Hp recovery to 2 (Gluttony can raise it to 3) to make it comparable to similar defensive items such as Focus Band/Sash (which block 2 dmg (likely 3 since SE) per action). There aren't many defensive items when compared to their offensive variants so I think this is a reasonable boost

... As for Leftovers, Focus Sash/Band work only when the opponent attacks and only 50% of the time (51-100%hp and 0-49%hp), whereas Leftovers work every turn non stop. If you boost it to 2hp I feel it would outclass Sash and Band entirely. Personally I prefer 1.5 and 3.

Although, to be fair, Sash and Band (especially Band) are worse than the offensive items (most signature items, type-specific items, expert belt etc) so maybe boosting all defensive items may be something to be looked into.

So before we tackle the big questions, let's start with Lefties, and your feelings towards defensive items and play in general. Remember to read to yourself your equivalent of Miranda rights and legal oaths before answering these questions:

• Does Leftovers need a buff? To what levels?
• Are defensive items and tactics underpowered? Do they require a buff?

Progress of the discussion will be tracked in the OP.
EDIT: Starting focus of discussion solely on Leftovers here.
EDIT2: Moving on to focus on Protector and Big Root here.

Fire away ^_^

 

[Gerard]

There are 4 types of offensive items commonly used: Expert Belt, Rare Candy / Everstone / Signature Items, Megastones & Weakness Policy:

• Expert Belt is a +2 boost on all SE moves, the opposite effect of Focus Sash / Band, but the problem with this is that unlike Sash / Band this works every time, unlike those two.
• Rare Candy and Co. boosts the offenses more than the defenses, since it grants a +2 / +1 boost to the STABs of the pokemon using it, so it's everything from a +1 boost to a +5 [MonoSTAB with a +2 boost on Atk or SpA] along with whatever random effects those items have.
• Megastones are in the same boat, where the defensive boosts pale in comparison to the offensive ones, there are many more offensively leaning megas than defensive ones, an even when defensive all megas get at least +1 rank in Attack or Special Attack (Look at MeGardevoir, she gets +1 SpD & +2 SpA along with an offensive ability, this is the trend with most megas).
• Weakness Policy is a +4 final dmg when active

Defensively, you've got Focus Sash / Band, Rare Candy / Everstone / Signature Items, Leftovers & Enigma Berry

• Focus Sash and Focus Band are inferior to Expert Belt just because the boost is only maintained when at a certain health
• Rare Candy and the like are also more on the offensive side as they grant a BP boost along the boost to ranks so Octillery gets +1 Atk & SpA & +2 BP on Water attacks while Suicune gets +1 Def & SpD & +2 BP on Water attacks. One gets +3.5 final dmg when using water attacks while the other gets -1.5 no matter what you do.
• Leftovers is just sad but I'll talk about in the next bullet point.
• Enigma Berry heals +20 Hp when consumed completely, in order to outheal this Leftovers needs to be on for 21 actions or 7 rounds, that's beyond unlikely. In order to prevent that much damage both Focus Sash & Band would have to stop 10 normal attacks, 7 SE ones or 5 4x SE, which you're unlikely to do since the items is likely to stop working long after.

As you can see, no defensive item can beat Enigma Berry under regular circunstances. That's why I think a boost to both items is in order, if we make the Focus items reduce damage by 3 then you can shed off 4.5 dmg vs SE moves, a better boost than Expert Belt but that only worst when over / under 50% hp (another change could be made than the boost remains for the entire round if the pokemon starts over 50% like with Multiscale, which would make for very interesting plays when you try to keep yourself over the edge one action in order to remain "protected" for 3. Focus Band could have a little boost to balance the two (like reducing the damage by 4 instead) since unlike Focus Sash, Band is hardly ever used to it's maximum capacity since it's activated when you're under 50% hp so you have to hope your opponent attacks put you exactly at 49 or else you start using it when at 40-35%

Leftovers I think a +2 hp per action would be enough to make it usable, this makes you able to endure while under sandstorm, or while burned, which is a very good effect, and to heal as much as Enigma Berry you only need to remain alive for a bit over 3 rounds, something much more reasonable to do.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

I'd like to lump in Black Sludge with Leftovers even though I'm the only one that uses it :(

Also pointing out that, while Enigma Berry is the best defensive item in terms of benefit, it also carries the largest risk; it's nearly impossible for you to give an Enigma Berry and get 20 HP out of it if the opponent has any Pokemon with Bug Bite, Pluck, or even Incinerate.

+2 HP for Leftovers seems like a good idea, but how would it interact with Gluttony Pokemon? Personally I find +3 HP per action a little bit on the high side. Also it wouldn't enable you to maintain Endure under sandstorm due to end of action priority...

 

[Avnomke]

+3 hp/action is good imo, since that's that damage boost given by Expert Belt (after SE), and it's only applicable to certain pokemon, most of whom would prefer a different item anyways (with the obvious exception of Shuckle).

That said, Focus Sash/Band needs a buff to be proportionate with lefties. I like Gerard's proposal for Sash, as a Multiscale-esque effect that reduces BAP by 3 if you were above 50% health at the start of the round. However, I think Band should get something different than Sash, maybe a limit to the maximum amount of damage dealt? Say, 20 or so. Maybe a percentage of the holder's health, to avoid Focus Band Blissey being unkillable. This would make it worth it to use Band over Sash on pokemon like Scizor or Rhyperior, that have 4x weaknesses and can get significant damage reduction out of Band.

 

[Its_A_Random]

The only defensive item that is super viable that has not even been mentioned here is Big Root. We all know what it does. We all know what happens when you combine it with Draining Kiss. I guess it would also be appropriate to discuss nerfs to Big Root here as well?

PS. anyone who says that nobody uses Big Root and/or it is not a defensive item needs to... yeah.

 

[Frosty]

I don't think Big Root is broken per se. It is too...extreme though. Big payout for a big cost. Draining Kiss is a cheap move and the cost part ends up not being that much of a turnoff. But for say Giga Drain, 16EN is a crapload to pay and is only worth it when SE.

I would suggest making it less extreme, by decreasing the healing boost to like 1.75 or 1.5 and the extra EN to 1.25 or a fixed ammount.

For the other items I agree with the posts above. Although -3 for focus *something* seems really risky, mainly for camerupt and carracosta. I would be more inclined to make them effective in more occasions (maybe 'til 30% hp and from 70%). Or you can make Sash last for all the battle (and nerf the effect to -1.5bap?) and change band entirely? As I said before, statiscally speaking, Band is, much more often than not, a worse option than sash.

 

[Stratos]

I don't think we should buff defensive items. I've used Leftovers and Shell Bell as they are and was not unimpressed; I've personally not used Sash and Band but we all know they're fine as is.

Big Root may *sound* cool but draining kiss is still weak as piss, even if it heals more than it does, and takes a lot of energy. It's a superior version of Recover maybe (probably a 25 hp swing for using it) but one that forces you to give up your item to use.

The most important aspect to remember is that an underpowered item is infinitely preferable to an overpowered one. If we do decide to buff leftovers to 1.5 HP per action, we should not change Sash and Band further to be "even more" viable. They're fine as is. The metagame is fine as is. quit fucking with it.

 

[Objection]

The most important aspect to remember is that an underpowered item is infinitely preferable to an overpowered one. If we do decide to buff leftovers to 1.5 HP per action, we should not change Sash and Band further to be "even more" viable. They're fine as is. The metagame is fine as is. quit fucking with it.

Disagree. An underpowered anything is a waste of mechanics and really ought to just be removed from the game to make it less bloated. If we're going to have something implemented in ASB, it needs to be worthwhile, otherwise we might as well not bother with it. In-game precedence be damned.

And if you're so sure that Sash and Band are fine as they are, explain why they are fine as they are, just so the rest of us know you're not spouting anti-buff bullshit.

 

[Gerard]

+3 Hp per action is good but its actually about the equivalent of a defensive Expert Belt (With the added benefit that it works every move instead of only the attacking ones while in turn it's effects are less than when targeting a 4x weak mon). Of the pokemon with Gluttony almost all have an item that gives Leftovers good competition and in some makes it undesirable even. Linoone & King's Rock prevent more damage than leftovers could ever hope to heal (thanks to Fling+ Pick Up). Victreebel and the monkeys each have their evolutionary stones, which grant them all +1 Atk & SpA along with a boost to their abilities). Swallot, Grumpig & Heatmor are all outclassed by their fellow Poison, Psychic & Fire types and could really use this little niche (And Swalot can also use Sticky Hold Rare Candy for +1 Atk / SpA). The bigger two are Shuckle and Snorlax. Shuckle becomes harder to kill but this has no effect on his offensive presence, which remains nonexistant (although healing over 10% of it's health every round does sound pretty good on paper). Snorlax's other items give this some serious competition as Expert Belt abuses Snorlax huge movepool and lack of tricks while Lax Incense is good depending on the opponent. So a wait and see would be reasonable.

I agree that Black Sludge should be boosted in a similar manner. And actually I think it would be for the best, the pokemon that would get a boosted healing with Black Sludge would be Poison Heal pokemon, which makes this one of two ways they can use this ability in Singles after the banning of Self-Targeting moves. They can either use this or Toxic Orb both having their own pros and cons (like being able to be knocked off, you can fling for toxic poison or use switcheroo, etc...). Toxic Boost only helps Zangoose which would rather use Toxic Orb or Everstone but appreciates the ability to choose a more defensive item. Liquid Ooze helps Swaloo so it's redundant with Glutonny (altough beware Swalot In dual wield non-training matches with item clause) and Tentacruel, who already uses Liquid Ooze and +1 hp per action more would be a good but hardly overpowered development for it (Good Special Bulk and nice typing but average offenses).

While we're at it another item I've seen discussed on IRC (bashed would be a better word for it) is Protector, when most people correctly assert that is vastly inferior to just Rhydon using Eviolite and that it's just not worth using over Focus Items or Enigma Berry (a -2 BP against attacks could be enough to make it usable, another effect could be to add an ability affect such as rock head)

 

[akela]

While we're at it another item I've seen discussed on IRC (bashed would be a better word for it) is Protector, when most people correctly assert that is vastly inferior to just Rhydon using Eviolite and that it's just not worth using over Focus Items or Enigma Berry (a -2 BP against attacks could be enough to make it usable, another effect could be to add an ability affect such as rock head)

Rhydon, Neutral Nature: 110/5/5/2/2/40|20|S4W5
Rhydon, Netural Nature with Eviolite: 110/5/8/2/3/40|20|S4W5
Rhyperior, Netural Nature: 110/5/5/2/2/40|20|S5W7

What does this mean? Well, I ran the calculations of what Grass Knot and Low Kick will do to Rhydon and Rhyperior with all abilities, while holding Eviolite, and while holding Protector coming from an opponent with Rank 4 Attack, Rank 4 Special Attack, no stab and ignoring outside forces (Critical Hits, offensive abilities, screens, weather, spread modifier, etc).

Here are the results of the calculations:
Rhydon without an item receives 12.75 damage from a Low Kick and 29.25 damage from a Grass Knot. Comparatively, Rhyperior without an item receives 14.25 damage from a Low Kick and 31.5 damage from a Grass Knot.
Rhydon with Protector receives 11.25 damage from a Low Kick and 27 damage from a Grass Knot. Comparatively, Rhyperior with Protector receives 12.75 damage from a Low Kick and 29.25 damage from a Grass Knot.
Rhydon with Eviolite receives 7.5 damage from a Low Kick and 25.875 damage from a Grass Knot. Even if Protector was boosted so as to reduce the BAP of incoming attacks by 2, Rhyperior would still take more damage from Low Kick and Grass Knot than Eviolite Rhydon would.

 

[Stratos]

And if you're so sure that Sash and Band are fine as they are, explain why they are fine as they are, just so the rest of us know you're not spouting anti-buff bullshit.

I was away for a week when this was posted so sorry for not seeing it. Sash and Band are commonly used on Pokemon such as Camerupt and Carracosta to reduce the BAP of incoming attacks by ridiculous numbers and make them absolute pains to kill.

also your logic that if something isn't viable in competitive play, it should be removed, is pretty ridiculous. There is simply no way to balance so many factors in a game such as this; i'm ok with stripping it down though, it'd make the NDA easier to load.

 

[ZhengTann]

While I agree with Obj's ideal, I have to concede in Pwne's truth (bad BW pun I know). Anyway, picking up where we left off about a fortnight ago, I think we need to focus on the items one by one, otherwise it's difficult for everyone to track the discussion. As of right now we have, uhm, the items on this list:

• Leftovers
  
• Black Sludge
  
• Focus Sash / Band
• Big Root
• Protector

So let's continue to start with Lefties. The arguments for buffing it to +2 / +3 Gluttony are, so far:

1. Enigma Berry is (potentially) a much better defensive item.
   
2. Offensive items generally outclass Leftovers in terms of raw numbers (Eg. Life Orb provides +3 minimum even at -2 HP cost).
3. It still won't stop weather damage and Future Sight / Doom Desire (although it can potentially stop a weaker Toxic / Burn).

IMHO, arguments 2 and 3 might prove to be good proponents, but it's best if we could get inputs all over. Arguments against buffing:

1. It is fine as it is.

... Okay... Maybe we can try looking for proof that buffing degrades the item (or the metagame in general) rather than clinging to the buff culture fear.

Also, please wait on other items (unless you want to do comparison in relation to the Item in discussion) until we get there. Cheers :)

 

[Gerard]

IMO making Big Root a +3 energy cost on Damaging recovery moves would be better than the +50% that we have now (in addition to the max 100% recovery). I think a plain boost would be better than a percentage based one because otherwise low cost moves are not gonna suffer much but high cost moves because unusable with the item. With this change:

Absorb would cost 9 En
Draining Kiss would cost 10 En
Parabolic Charge would cost 10 En
Mega Drain would cost 12 En
Leech Life would cost 12 En
Giga Drain would cost 15 En
Horn Leach would cost 15 En
Drain Punch would cost 15 En
Leech Seed would cost 15 En
Dream Eater would cost 15 En

As you can see. They remain cost-restrictive, hard to spam, but a more reasonable cost than what we have now for high cost moves, meanwhile the low cost moves can either have an increased energy cost (8 seems good) along with the 100 max seem to me like enough for now (Basically a little boost to Draining Root that doesn't affect the broken moves but makes it an usable item outside of abusing those moves and makes high costing moves not be an energy sink, at least not like they used to be).

-

Regarding Protector, I don't think it matters if Grass Knot & Low Kick are better because every other move will hurt less. To compare:

(11 + 3 + 2 - 2 - 1 + 1.5) x 2.25 = 32.625 (Timid Starmie's Hydro Pump w/ Exp. Belt vs Careful / Sassy Rhyperior w/ Protector)
(11 + 3 + 2 - 2 - 2 + 1.5) x 2.25 = 30.375 (Timid Starmie's Hydro Pump w/ Exp. Belt vs Careful / Sassy Rhyperior w/ Boosted Protector)
(11 + 3 + 2 - 1.5) x 2.25 = 32.625 (Timid Starmie's Hydro Pump w/ Exp. Belt vs Careful / Sassy Rhydon w/ Eviolite)

Yes, being weaker to Low Kick and Grass Knot is bad but when you can be more resistant to every other attack I think it's a fair trade, right now there's no reason to use Protector Rhyperior since Eviolite Rhydon does everything this can do but better, but after this boost then Protector becomes a legitimate item choice for Rhyperior.

 

[Dogfish44]

OK, let's go with each item:

Moving Lefties to +2/+3 seems fine. I'd also sauy it's a smart idea to do the same for Black Sludge - +2 for the current +1s, and +3 for the current +2s. This would match the current damage BS currently does.

Sash and Band I agree with Frosty, that the best way to cconsider it would be to increase the range of viability - perhaps to 100% - 25%, and 75% - 0% for the respective items?

Big Root needs both a boost and a nerf, depending on who you ask. I believe it's fine as is, but we should consider some options with the recent addition of Parabolic Charge and Draining Kiss.

Protector needs a boost. Not only that, it needs a big one - anything less and it'll not see use between Eviolite and 4x Weaknesses. Perhaps something like:

The equipped Pokemon gains 2 Def Ranks and 2 SpD Ranks, and gains the ability Battle Armor. This Pokemon does not feel any effect of being Sluggish.

This provides a solid increase in bulk, and opens up Rock Wrecker as a primary attack for Rhyperior, as oppossed to relying upon Stone Edge or Rock Slide. It also negates crits, both as a flavourful gesture and as crits are one of the worst things to suffer when you have multiple 4x weaknesses to juggle.

Using this new Protector:

Rank 5 STAB Grass Knot vs +SpD Rhydon @ Protector: (10 + 3)*2.25 = 29.25 Damage
Rank 5 STAB Grass Knot vs +SpD Rhyperior @ Protector: (13 + 3 - 2)*2.25 = 31.5 Damage
Rank 5 STAB Grass Knot vs Neutral Rhyperior @ Protector: (13 + 1.5 + 3 - 2) = 33.75 Damage

For a STAB Rank 5 attack, there's very little difference - an updated Protector is certainly usable. However, there's the difference in BAP to factor in - all other attacks will deal 2 less damage to Rhyperior pre-SE modifier, which means that if the BAP is constant, Rhyperior is bulkier, and has easy access to the very strong Rock Wrecker. Perhaps this new protector would be too strong (It would certainly be one of the stronger Sig Items), but we should definitely be looking towards the stronger end of the scale if we wish for it to see any use at all.

 

[Frosty]

...

110/5/7/2/4/slow with battle armor and FUCKING FREE ROCK WRECKER.

Sorry bro but that is beyond ridiculous ._.. If you are using eviolite as parameter, then I suggest you give an equal boost to reaper cloth and make a frosty man happy.

Hell if x4 weaks is the problem, then incoming carracosta boost, eh? because 100/4/6/3/3/really slow is miserable vs 110/5/7/2/4/just slow

seriously though. 1 rank a piece and no sluggish is enough. Or maybe 1/3 of defenses rounded up and just it? Rhyperior gets a couple more moves and Solid Rock so you don't need to make it as good as eviolite to measure up. One thing is eviolite rhydon being awesome (eviolite dusclops is fucking 3/8/2/8/slow with awesome defensive typing and we don't see people complaining). Another thing is breaking an item to measure. Signature items should be consistent all-around. The old protector is bad because -1 is hardly anything when Focus Sash does that better. So let's boost protector to be as good as the other signature items, not for rhyperior to be as good as eviolite rhydon.

Especially when you consider that Rhyperior is already a good mon.

Again: why? just because we can? because if we are to be consistent and boost items to boost pokemon, we might as well revisit all the signature items and change the entire metagame entirely (redundancy intended).

 

[akela]

Honestly, all Rhyperior would really need from an updated protector is +1 Def/SpD Rank and Rock Head. Make it almost be a reaper cloth clone in that Rhyperior would gain Rhydon's ability that Rhyperior doesn't have (but don't do the same for Rhydon. That would be too powerful of a boost) while also boosting Rhyperior's defensive stats slightly more than the current protector does (effectively reducing the damage it takes by an additional 0.5 in comparison to the old protector (assuming neutral nature rhyperior)). That change would be little weaker than similarly price signature items, but stronger than lower priced signature items.

Alternatively, make it similar to the Incense items and have it enhance the ability that Rhydon and Rhyperior Share. Grant a stat rank boost and either (A) Increase the BAP boost of recoil moves with Reckless or (B) Have Lightningrod ignore Rhydon/Rhyperior's Ground-typing.

We won't see Rhydon use Protector while things like Eviolite and Focus Sash/Band exist. It just won't happen. The least we can do is make it so that Rhyperior will use it in some cases (currently, there are 3 CC berries Rhyperior would rather use over Protector).

 

[Flamestrike]

The only issue I have with granting Rock Head and/or granting a boost to Reckless is that Rhyperior gets a total of 3 recoil moves; Double-Edge, Submission, and Take Down. Of these Take Down is more or less awful, Submission is highly situational (although I guess with a hypothetical +4 Reckless boost instead of a +2 it takes a rather large Pokemon to make have it less power than Hammer Arm), and Double-Edge admittedly hits pretty hard, although the fact that it's normal type really hurts it here (hypothetical +4 Reckless gives it 19 BAP, which is ridiculous, except you're never hitting anything for better than neutral so you're probably still only doing 20-25 damage depending on Defense). I like the +1 Def/SpD idea, but I'd rather see a more relevant boost than a boost to recoil moves. I rather like the idea of making Rock Wrecker no longer inflict sluggish, along with the +1 Def/SpD, but that's just me.

Frosty, I'm about to bias all over this but if we're complaining about bad signature items then holy hell yes Carracosta's could use a boost. Woo, Swift Swim is always active. A shame that 2 * really fucking slow is still really fucking slow. I'd like to suggest that Cover Fossil allows Carracosta to retain the effects of Sturdy and/or Solid Rock even if they are taken away (doing both might be too good but I'll let others weigh in on that), but yeah, Cover Fossil is easily the worst of the fossils and it'd be nice if the secondary effect was at least somewhat relevant. I can understand if people don't want to open up the can of worms that is buffing sig items past the Protector (which is laughably awful ATM), but as far as I know if there's any other sig item that needs it it's probably the Cover Fossil.

 

[ZhengTann]

Okay, so far, we've supporters behind the Lefties boost, though no further reasons to add for it... moving that one to Voting then.

Right now people are focusing on Protector and Big Root, so please put forward your suggestions and feedback (and do remember to highlight your proposals so that it's easier to put them to Voting, thank you ^_^ ). Focus Band/Sash could do with some elaboration too, though I suspect to most people its just a "makes no difference either way" kinda change, since battlers will just factor in the new numbers. As to Cover Fossil... Well let's just leave it at that. Skill Swap is the bane of Carracosta more than anything, and despite that Carracosta is still a decent mon from what I've seen. Although, that is just my opinion - do counter them if you feel that I have my perspectives wrong.

 

[Its_A_Random]

If we are going to improve Protector then imo we should just increase the reduced BAP number to 2 or 3 and be done with it.

With it you get a superior focus sash/band and a superior expert belt in a way. Heck with -3 it becomes superior to Life Orb in a way. This also ensures that Rhyperior is not outclassed by Eviolite Rhydon for bulk as it will end up taking less damage from SE attacks thanks to Solid Rock by taking 9 or 11.25 less DMG from a 4× SE Attack compared to like -6.75 from a 4× SE Special Attack in the case of +SpD Eviolite Rhydon. +SpD Eviolite Rhydon will take less Damage from Physical Neutral hits anyway by like -0.5 anyway in the case of -3 for Protector.

My five cents.

 

[Geodude6]

I find myself liking IAR's idea for a protector buff, as Dogfish's idea is way overpowered and the current version is just sad. It's powerful but also allows competition with other powerful items like Expert Belt.

As for the Cover Fossil I don't think there's any way to buff it without having it either be still sad or completely broken as Carracosta is already very powerful. Maybe make Swift Swim triple Speed as well as auto-activate? 3 x Really Slow is still slow, but it's something to think about.

As for Sash and Band, Band might need a buff but Sash definitely doesn't; given its prominence in the game I doubt anyone will disagree with me on that particular point. Honestly I think we could just buff Band to -3 or maybe even -4 and call it a day.

Addressing Big Root, I like Gerard's idea to make the EN penalty flat rather than multiplicative. I also think we could make Big Root draining moves heal either twice the amount they normally would, or 100% of the damage done, whichever is less. This nerfs Big Root with Draining Kiss (and the unreleased-as-of-yet Oblivion Wing) while simultaneously avoiding breaking Heliolisk.

 

[Flamestrike]

I like IAR's suggestion for the Protector as well. I'd still like some sort of an offensive buff as well, but it seems like most people prefer a purely defensive boost so I'm not sure I'm getting that.

I'm not sure when Carracosta became a "very powerful" Pokemon, compared to stuff like Cyclohm/Pyroak/Gardevoir/Gallade/Colossoil and so on. I mean, it's not bad, but it's slow as dirt, doesn't have a whole lot of coverage, has a typing that has a fair amount of weaknesses including a x4 one, and its stats don't really make up for that on their own. Its only real claim to fame is the Sturdy/Solid Rock combination, but Skill Swap and other forms of ability fuckery are so common that it doesn't really help and in a decent amount of matchups ends up hindering Carracosta because the opponent just steals it for themselves and Carracosta can do fuck all about it. Hence my suggestion that Cover Fossil blocks Skill Swap; it ensures Carracosta will have the two things that actually make it a competitive Pokemon most of the time (and you can still use things like Simple Beam and Entrainment to get rid of them too, or Role Play to take them for yourself). If someone can show me just why Carracosta is so strong and would be overpowered with this item then I'll drop it, but I don't want to hear a generic "OMG Carracosta is too strong already" without some sort of explanation as to WHY it's so strong.

I think both Sash and Band are fine as they are. The thing to keep in mind is that since 90% of attacks at a high level of play will be SE, these effectively -3 damage per attack, which is about on par with the current Leftovers (assuming no Gluttony). Sash is more or less strictly better than Band, yes, but I don't think we should buff Band to make up for it; that'll just lead to Band being strictly better and us wanting to buff Sash later on.

I don't really have any input with Big Root because I haven't experienced its effects first-hand yet and it's not as clear-cut numbers-wise as the others, so I'm going to hold off on that one.

 

[Geodude6]

Carracosta is powerful because it takes little damage from most attacks due to a combination of Sturdy, Solid Rock, and possible Sandstorm.

 

[Avnomke]

I think both Sash and Band are fine as they are. The thing to keep in mind is that since 90% of attacks at a high level of play will be SE, these effectively -3 damage per attack, which is about on par with the current Leftovers (assuming no Gluttony). Sash is more or less strictly better than Band, yes, but I don't think we should buff Band to make up for it; that'll just lead to Band being strictly better and us wanting to buff Sash later on.

Sash/Band are about equal to leftovers, while they're active. Half the time they aren't active, since they are only active when the holder is at above/below 50% hp. This is why I think Sash should maybe have the "multiscale" thing, where it's active as long as the holder was at above 50% hp at the beginning of the round (it's easier on refs too) and band should have some other effect, like the damage cap.

 

[Flamestrike]

Carracosta is powerful because it takes little damage from most attacks due to a combination of Sturdy, Solid Rock, and possible Sandstorm.

You're massively overestimating that combo in my opinion. Yes Carracosta takes relatively little damage from super effective attacks, but he also tends to not dish much back out if he can't hit super effective, which is often when your only real physical coverage coverage is Water/Rock/Ice/Fighting. And if those abilities are gone? Then you're right fucked. You're going to need to do more than that to convince me that Carracosta is actually powerful, especially considering that I OWN one and know about as much about it as anyone.

Avnomke I'd be willing to give Sash the Multiscale-style effect, that would be fair. I'm not sure what you mean about the damage cap for Band though.

 

[Avnomke]

My proposal earlier in the thread, where a pokemon could take no more than 20% or so of their max health in one hit. It makes Band a useful choice when Sash exists, especially on pokemon that are generally crippled by 4x weaknesses, as it is impossible to achieve less than a 5hko (maybe multi-hit moves could ignore this?).