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I'd like to see
Another proposed B drop would have to be
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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I'd like to see
Another proposed B drop would have to be
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
unaware:
You wot m8?
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I'd like to seedrop to B. It isn't the best Defog user, nor does it cover enough threats to warrant that placing as a defensive mon. How can you say this thing is on par with Mega Gardevoir, Tornadus-T, and Kabutops?
Another proposed B drop would have to be. It's one-dimensional and is threatened by many of the higher tier mons, along with having its U-turn resisted by the lot of them. Not bad, but it kinda gives me that Conkeldurr feeling, ya'know?
252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- approx. 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 175-210 (44.4 - 53.2%) -- approx. 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
magic guard:
+2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 345-410 (87.5 - 104%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 315-375 (79.9 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
nice counter m8
Re: Zapdos
If anything, he should move up, not down. He's arguably the best Bird Spam check as only Staraptor can get past him (Skarm is 2HKOed by Pinsirs CC apparently) and is able to hard check special attackers with a SpDef spread (one such example is Landorus). He has reliable recovery, and while not being the best Defogger out there, he's still a good choice for balanced teams that don't have the room to run the Latis.
And how is Zappy on par with Kabutops, Torn and Gardevoir? Because he walls things like I mentioned and isn't set up bait either (base 125 SpAtk is nothing to scoff at). Depending on the coverage move you run alongside T-Bolt, you can beat different things. Heat Wave beats Bisharp, a common Defogger switch in w/ a 2HKO, as well as Scizor and Ferrothorn, while HP Ice ensures that you're not set up bait for dragons, beats Lando, and when creeping SpDef Gliscor, beats it 1v1.
I don't see how he's B rank. I've used him plenty and have never questioned his viability. Keep him in B+, or better yet, send him to A-
If anything, he should move up, not down. He's arguably the best Bird Spam check as only Staraptor can get past him (Skarm is 2HKOed by Pinsirs CC apparently) and is able to hard check special attackers with a SpDef spread (one such example is Landorus). He has reliable recovery, and while not being the best Defogger out there, he's still a good choice for balanced teams that don't have the room to run the Latis.
And how is Zappy on par with Kabutops, Torn and Gardevoir? Because he walls things like I mentioned and isn't set up bait either (base 125 SpAtk is nothing to scoff at). Depending on the coverage move you run alongside T-Bolt, you can beat different things. Heat Wave beats Bisharp, a common Defogger switch in w/ a 2HKO, as well as Scizor and Ferrothorn, while HP Ice ensures that you're not set up bait for dragons, beats Lando, and when creeping SpDef Gliscor, beats it 1v1.
I don't see how he's B rank. I've used him plenty and have never questioned his viability. Keep him in B+, or better yet, send him to A-
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
Pinsir CC is god awful and never should be used
This thread is for the current OU meta. We have Aegislash here and Bird Spam isn't so difficult to handle that Zapdos deserves to be ranked so highly. There are better Landorus-i counters than Zapdos, it doesn't even have the survivability to really check Bird Offense without the defensive EVs. It also has poor 4MSS, you pick your many counters with either Heat Wave or HP Ice.
Dread Arceus
total cockhead
I'm feeling the Zapdos drop as well. It was good ages ago when Mega Lucario and Mega Pinsir were the gods of the meta, but that time has passed. Let's keep in mind this thing is only as bulky as Keldeo and its main goal is stopping only birdspam (and it doesn't even like switching in to Flare Blitz). As for Scizor, I see where you're coming from with it, although it's almost sad to see an old meta threat drop like that.
You wot m8? Edit coz of Monte Cristo: (Clefable has Protect and a team dedicated to removing hazards.)
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I'd like to seedrop to B. It isn't the best Defog user, nor does it cover enough threats to warrant that placing as a defensive mon. How can you say this thing is on par with Mega Gardevoir, Tornadus-T, and Kabutops?
Another proposed B drop would have to be. It's one-dimensional and is threatened by many of the higher tier mons, along with having its U-turn resisted by the lot of them. Not bad, but it kinda gives me that Conkeldurr feeling, ya'know?
Seconding TFL's rankings
I know we have Aegislash. I'm simply saying that Pinsir can't touch Zapdos. Zapdos is one of the best Bird Spam counters out there. TTar can lose to Pinsir and doesn't like taking a Banded U-Turn to the face from Talon. Skarm takes a buttload from Flare Blitz and can't switch into Talon (assuming correct predictions). Thundurus is frail af and is a shaky check at best since he's 2HKOed after rocks. The best he can do is come in after a kill and force them out. He can kill them but no one in their right mind would stay in on Thundy if they can switch out. The last Bird Spam counter, Rotom, is easily worn down throughout he match. On top of all that, Zappy is the only one other than Skarm who has reliable recovery. The whole "there are better bird spam counters out there" argument is subjective.
Yes, there are better counters to Lando than Zappy, but he can still do the job. Just because he's not the best at one of his roles doesn't mean he's not good. That's just one potential set.
If you're not using defensive EVs, then why are you using him at all? As good as his offensive stats are, Thundurus is a thing.
If I pick Heat Wave I have something that can handle dragons or Gliscor/Lando more likely than not. If I pick HP Ice I probably don't have trouble with the steels I mentioned. Lots of things have 4MSS. It doesn't mean that they're not good.
I don't see how Zappy is only "B" rank material. He's better at what he does than what B ranks are at their jobs bar Hera (who should be B+) and Conk (who's one of, if not the only bulky fighting fighting type in the tier).
Zapdos cannot handle Staraptor, which is a thing on these Bird teams. It cannot counter Talonflame either, which is even more common. It also has to be wary of the opponent using a mon that it cannot come in and Defog against. It isn't really subjective in saying there are better Bird Spam counters, Rhyperior is by far the best, if that's what you are using it for. By the way, what I was trying to say is that if it does a defensive spread, then it cannot effectively handle Landorus-i.
Yeah, you can pick your 4th move depending on what your team needs, but you're still giving a chunk of mons free switch ins, some of em setting Rocks, which is something that no Defog use that is weak to em likes.
And then I get this post. Zapdos can only really handle the standard King's Shield + 3 Attacks Aegislash and loses to most other sets. It isn't good for covering Aeg.
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 203-239 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It also needs a SpD spread for Thundurus, which is can't really run if you're using it for its Pinsir counter niche. Same with Landorus-i.
It cannot counter Keldeo. Period. It's barely a check. You also have to play 50/50s with Bisharp, you don't want to give it boosts, but at the same time you want Stealth Rock gone. Gyarados only needs Zapdos a bit weakened (Rocks are enough) so it can +2 and smash it. It can switch in on Talonflame's Brave Bird, but not Flare Blitz. It also doesn't want to have to deal with the Bulk Up set.
My main point is that Zapdos is not a good defensive Defog user and is (much) worse than Skarmory and Mandibuzz in that role.
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What has the difficulty of stoping birdspam to do with Zapdos ranking? Its not like he is only good for that. He is one of only 3 defensive defoggers and arguably the most versatile among them, he also checks/counters a large number of high ranking threats such as Aegislash, Thundurus, Landorus, Mega Scizor, Pinsir, Keldeo, Bisharp, Gyarados and Talonflame among others. There might be better counters to Lando (actually the only one i can think of is CBB Nite) but Zapdos does the job very well so that doesnt realy matter.
Having to choose between heatwave/toxic/hp ice for coverage isnt realy a severe case of 4mss, most of the time you will be perfectly fine with toxic anyway. Imo he should go up instead of down, he is easily as good as Mandibuzz who is in A.
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Dread Arceus
total cockhead
Actually, Zapdos probably does its job worse than any other B rank mon does theirs. For one, you're using an entire teamslot trying to counter a single playstyle with a mediocre mon that has trouble Defogging on quite a bit of the meta (while being weak to Stealth Rocks). If you look at, say, Suicune, though, it performs its job very well (that is, being a bulk bomb and sweeping late-game), and it has little trouble doing so. Mega Manectric is a glorious typing with a pretty good offensive typing, Intimidate, and Volt Switch; Gothitelle can seriously cripple stall teams and annoy offense; Kingdra is a total monster in rain; Mew will not fucking die; and Lucario, MHeracross, and Conkeldurr are all very hard to switch in to, and Lucario and Conkeldurr have priority to make things more difficult. The only mons who I could see being as bad as Zapdos in B are Chesnaught and Sylveon, who are both pretty outclassed in today's meta.
The SpD spread is still perfectly capable of dealing with Pinsir as it avoids the 2hko after rocks. Against Keldeo it can come in against every move bar Hydro Pump and force it out with Thunderbolt (assuming SpD set and no rocks here). Having to predict against Bisharp is a thing for Mandi and the Latis as well and Zapdos is better than Mandibuzz at dealing with him, especially with a physical def set and/or Heatwave. Beeing unable to switch into Talons Flare Blitz is an issue but then again, Mandi and Skarm cant do that either and between Toxic and Tbolt bulkup Talonflame should have a very hard time.
Your main point isnt true imo. It has less bulk than the other two but thats mostly compensated by its far better typing and its better offensivewise as Skarm cant realy do damage in general and Mandibuzz only works against physical attackers. Keldeo and Greninja deserve special mention here as they have a free entry against Mandibuzz.
Futhermore Zapdos paires very well with things like Mega Garde/Hera/Venusaur as its a good check or even counter for almost all of their counters/checks in just one pokemon.
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The fact that Mega Heracross typically runs an Adamant nature means Clefable is rarely ever safe from it and really can't switch into Mega Heracross. This thing just has such absurd power, it's amazing.
I used to like nominating things in this thread and now that I can again...
I feel like Zapdos is a great utility Pokemon, but it suffers from 1 major flaw, its stats. Sure it's bulky and its strong with investment, but it can't be both. Uninvested Thunderbolts aren't that strong, and a Zapdos with no bulk can not reliably check what it needs to, and going for a "middle ground" turns it into something its just not going to be because then you waste its ok Speed as well. I feel like this is one of those things someone needs to find /the/ ideal spread for (I might try to do this later though) so it has a bit of untapped potential but otherwise everything has been said. B+ is ok for it for now.
Mandibuzz is way too high in my opinion. Aegi is broke but this thing has obvious flaws, same shared with the previously mentioned Zapdos. Even then it loses to SubToxic so good job. It can't hit back outside of Foul Play (don't bring up Knock Off, it really shouldn't be running both that and Foul Play) and has other major flaws. IMO, drop this thing back to B+
Latias while I am not saying it should drop is something I want to hear other peoples opinions on.
Manaphy was better earlier on with all the Sticky Web hype. Its CM set has competition from Suicune, and its Tail Glow set is kind of easy to revenge since, in reality, when will it not have the slightest bit of prior damage that stops it frim being revenged. It has ok coverage and bulk but it has no priority and 100 Speed isn't what it used to be. B+ or B
Arcanine why is this thing not D? Just drop it back down to D rank (ik it's blacklisted, feel free to ignore this whatever)
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Thundurus-T is not entirely outclassed by Thundurus so that's a bad argument. It's definitely outclassed don't get me wrong, but it has a niche in its immunity to Electric-type moves and its higher power which makes Agility/Double Dance sets somewhat viable. C rank
Reuniclus Many things about this have been said, so I will just say that its immunity to passive damage including Life Orb, as well as its good power and bulk give it a niche on Trick Room, and its CM set can absolutely destroy stall given the opportunity. This deserves C rank, or at the very least C- rank, even if it has some major flaws in the current metagame. C or C-
Froslass has use as a lead Spiker, thanks to its unique combination of Spikes, Destiny Bond, Ice Beam to threaten all relevant Defoggers, Cursed Body which is literally the most annoying thing when battling Froslass, and of course the ability to Taunt any Defogger and spinblock its own hazards. This thing is so underrated. It deserves C rank
Noivern: Noivern is not outclassed offensively. It is weaker but also faster, and has access to moves like Flamethrower, which Latios does not have, Taunt and U-turn which both Latios and Dragonite lack, and a base 123 Speed which outspeeds Greninja. Another underrated factor of Noivern is stallbreaking, due to all these unique traits. Here is my set:
Noivern @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk / Infiltrator
EVs: 248 HP / 228 SpDef / 32 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Roost
- U-turn / Flamethrower / Air Slash
- Draco Meteor / Air Slash
EVs outspeed max Speed Kyurem-B (and Gliscor but no one runs 252 Jolly Gliscor) but if you choose to they can be increased to base 100s, which is 72 Speed (or 76? I can't do the math) and allows it to Taunt whatever it wants to, Recover with Roost, maintain momentum, or fire off a STAB, which even uninvested can hurt considering the high power of Draco Meteor, or even the flinch chance of Air Slash, though Hurricane can be used, it's pretty sub-optimal. C+
Mega Heracross See above posts. B+
Edit: TL;DR version:
I feel like Zapdos is a great utility Pokemon, but it suffers from 1 major flaw, its stats. Sure it's bulky and its strong with investment, but it can't be both. Uninvested Thunderbolts aren't that strong, and a Zapdos with no bulk can not reliably check what it needs to, and going for a "middle ground" turns it into something its just not going to be because then you waste its ok Speed as well. I feel like this is one of those things someone needs to find /the/ ideal spread for (I might try to do this later though) so it has a bit of untapped potential but otherwise everything has been said. B+ is ok for it for now.
Mandibuzz is way too high in my opinion. Aegi is broke but this thing has obvious flaws, same shared with the previously mentioned Zapdos. Even then it loses to SubToxic so good job. It can't hit back outside of Foul Play (don't bring up Knock Off, it really shouldn't be running both that and Foul Play) and has other major flaws. IMO, drop this thing back to B+
Latias while I am not saying it should drop is something I want to hear other peoples opinions on.
Manaphy was better earlier on with all the Sticky Web hype. Its CM set has competition from Suicune, and its Tail Glow set is kind of easy to revenge since, in reality, when will it not have the slightest bit of prior damage that stops it frim being revenged. It has ok coverage and bulk but it has no priority and 100 Speed isn't what it used to be. B+ or B
Arcanine why is this thing not D? Just drop it back down to D rank (ik it's blacklisted, feel free to ignore this whatever)
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Thundurus-T is not entirely outclassed by Thundurus so that's a bad argument. It's definitely outclassed don't get me wrong, but it has a niche in its immunity to Electric-type moves and its higher power which makes Agility/Double Dance sets somewhat viable. C rank
Reuniclus Many things about this have been said, so I will just say that its immunity to passive damage including Life Orb, as well as its good power and bulk give it a niche on Trick Room, and its CM set can absolutely destroy stall given the opportunity. This deserves C rank, or at the very least C- rank, even if it has some major flaws in the current metagame. C or C-
Froslass has use as a lead Spiker, thanks to its unique combination of Spikes, Destiny Bond, Ice Beam to threaten all relevant Defoggers, Cursed Body which is literally the most annoying thing when battling Froslass, and of course the ability to Taunt any Defogger and spinblock its own hazards. This thing is so underrated. It deserves C rank
Noivern: Noivern is not outclassed offensively. It is weaker but also faster, and has access to moves like Flamethrower, which Latios does not have, Taunt and U-turn which both Latios and Dragonite lack, and a base 123 Speed which outspeeds Greninja. Another underrated factor of Noivern is stallbreaking, due to all these unique traits. Here is my set:
Noivern @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk / Infiltrator
EVs: 248 HP / 228 SpDef / 32 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Roost
- U-turn / Flamethrower / Air Slash
- Draco Meteor / Air Slash
EVs outspeed max Speed Kyurem-B (and Gliscor but no one runs 252 Jolly Gliscor) but if you choose to they can be increased to base 100s, which is 72 Speed (or 76? I can't do the math) and allows it to Taunt whatever it wants to, Recover with Roost, maintain momentum, or fire off a STAB, which even uninvested can hurt considering the high power of Draco Meteor, or even the flinch chance of Air Slash, though Hurricane can be used, it's pretty sub-optimal. C+
Mega Heracross See above posts. B+
Edit: TL;DR version:
Drops:
Zapdos: B+
Mandibuzz: B+
Latias: unsure, but maybe A-
Manaphy: B+ or B
Arcanine: D
Increase:
Thundurus-T: C
Reuniclus: C or C-
Froslass: C
Noivern: C+
Mega Heracross: B+
Zapdos: B+
Mandibuzz: B+
Latias: unsure, but maybe A-
Manaphy: B+ or B
Arcanine: D
Increase:
Thundurus-T: C
Reuniclus: C or C-
Froslass: C
Noivern: C+
Mega Heracross: B+
It rose due to it's ability to take on M Mawile, it's probably one of the more reliable counters out there.
Fair point, but there are better Pokemon to do this as Arcanine is nearly dead weight otherwise.
It does one thing well, but otherwise is mediocre. It's decent, but still mediocre. It's better than Conkeldurr, but worse than the other B+ Pokemon, barring Scizor, who really should drop as well. IMO it's a high B/low B+.
I disagree entirely. I beats many top tier threats, can Defog, and just serve as glue for many teams. Tagging TFL because he knows about Mandy.
Healing Wish is excellent, and the extra bulk is extremely useful vs. Charizard-Y and Landorus. Easy A.
It has three good sets. All are interesting and underrated imo. Tail Glow is mediocre, CroPhy is really good, and TailDance is extremely underrated atm. It has the bulk to survive basically every hit, and after setting up can do serious damage. Remove its checks and counters, obviously, and it will be better. But, it has the ability to lure its checks and counters, and also is unpredictable. It's bulk is great, power is decent, speed is sufficient. You can tweak it to its team's needs. I think it deserves A-.
It isn't blacklisted anymore because people realized it's decent. It counters all Mawile sets, and can handles a couple other Pokemon. I think C- is fine.
Agreed
I honestly don't know anything about it.
Totally agree
I don't know if C+ is best for it, but it should be ranked. I was thinking C or C-, but it warrants more discussion. Tagging Meru, because he knows about it.
Agreed
Also, I'd like to bring three unranked Pokemon to the table.
Azelf is really cool atm. It basically does everything Deoxys-S did, but differently. It has a cool hazard set with Explosion to boast, a Rain setting set with U-Turn (which is amazing, btw), a dual screens set, again with U-Turn, and finally a Life Orb set. I honestly could see it in B-, but I think it deserves discussion.
Weezing is a niche Pokemon similar to Arcanine, in that it flawlessly beats Mega Mawile. However, it has a far better defensive typing that also lets it beat every Physical attacker not named Excadrill, Charizard-X, Victini, or Medicham, as well as some special attackers, like Clefable, Sylveon, and and Mega Venusaur. I think it deserves D or C-, and alexwolf said he'd agree to at least D. Tagging Meru again
Diancie is an interesting Pokemon, that people like to hate on. It has an interesting TR SR Explosion Set, a Calm Mind set, a dual screens set, and a couple others. It boats the ability to handle most Fire-types and most Dragon-types well. Its trick room set and dual screens set puts in on par with Cresselia, so it really shouldn't go lower than C rank.
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Eh, I dunno about that, chum. I've never actually used Arcanine [I doubt you have either, though], and it seems like it'd be fairly good at spreading burns, and it's got Intimidate and reliable recovery to boot; seems like it'd be pretty decent at shutting down physical attackers. It's also got a pretty nice base 110 Attack stat, and Fire's a pretty good offensive type to have. Extremespeed also seems like it'd be useful, too, to outspeed other priority.
I mean, I doubt it's /that/ good, but it doesn't seem like it's utter shit outside of hard checking [countering?] Mawile.
Dead weight is a massive exaggeration, it can do a lot of things that Heatran would need to handle, and assuming you can keep Rocks off the field and you have some other mon to take Dragon moves, Arcanine is reasonably effective (not like Dragons don't run EQ for Heatran and Aegislash anyways).
And really, Arcanine is the best mon to beat Mawile. Heatran cries when SubPunch shows up, Venusaur struggles to take boosted attacks (+2 Fire Fang has a good chance to OHKO), +2 Play Rough has a small chance of OHKOing Hippowdon, Skarmory struggles with Fire Fang and can't heal up against Focus Punch. Arcanine doesn't really mind any attack minus Focus Punch, has Intimidate, and can dodge Sucker Punches by healing with Morning Sun or crippling Mawile with Will o Wisp.
Its utility is quite nice, as it can afford to take un stabbed Stone Edge from Ground and vice versa from rcok types. I mean its utility is great but due to it not being able to reliably handle special attacks and still not being able to handle some top tier threats in Exca and Char X, I think its position in C- is fine
If you're mainly looking for a flawless birdspam counter, Mega Aerodactyl does a lot better, resists ALL of bird spam stabs, not weak to any coverage move, outspeeds and ohkos them all while not giving a rat's ass about their prioirity. Ice Fang Aero even does a better job countering Landorus-I too, since Lando can't set up Calm Mind all over it.
And Aero doesn't necessarily have to be worn down more than Zapdos, defensive sets with Roost have some surprisingly nice niches (counters bird spam like no other, decent counter to Lando-I and Zard-Y that's not weak to Pursuit). 80/85/95 bulk is slightly worse physically, and about the same special, than Zapdos, but Aerodactyl has way better speed that adds a lot to its defensive potential by saving it from taking a hit.
Zapdos' most notable niche over Mega Aerodactyl is that it fits on to balance/stall teams with other megas like Venusaur and Charizard, and imo that's not worth being two subranks up.
Honestly I don't like running other of them as a defogger, since I find a lot of battles that go like this:
Opponent sets up rocks.
Defogger (Zap or Aero) comes in, loses 25% health, as well as damage from switching in.
Defogger forced to roost if it wants to come in again, or Defog and not be able to counter what it's supposed to counter later on due to only being at like 50% health. Because the opponent will switch to a check and force it out next turn either way.
If the opponent sets up rocks again, they'll have to find a free switch on something they outspeed and can take a hit to roost, and that's difficult.
You would really have to be desperate to double up Defogger+Bird Spam check into one role while not being able to sub out any other team member to help out.
Arcanine's one of the few Fire-types that can play in a defensive manner, and with Intimidate and Morning Sun as great defensive tools, as well as having 6 resistances and solid 90 / 80 / 80 defenses, Arcanine can work as a rather underrated physical wall.
I agree, defensive Arcanine is pretty good since it has Intimidate and Morning Sun, but the weaknesses to ground and rock hold it back imo.
On my phone which is garbage at quoting but if we are seriously considering moving azelf in to the ranks I wouldn't put it higher than C+/C right now. I can only speak from using a dual screens set and seeing a couple decent uses here and there. The biggest pros is that azelf sits at a very comfortable speed tier, hits pretty hard with nasty plot life orb, and with taunt can help stallbreak a bit easier. The problems is that you usually have to pick your poison so youre handling one archetype more easily while having trouble with others depending on the set. I guess it depends how it fits on your team but yeah azelf definitely deserves a mention on this thread cause the roles that it has are generally a lot more useful than a lot of the low rank stuff that is limited to niches and outclassed roles.
The rain set and suicide leads are mostly where I was coming from. It may need more time to develop, but I think C+ minimum is where it belongs. Nasty Plot, Dual Screens, Rain Dance, U-Turn, Explosion, and Stealth Rock are all very useful. It's very powerful and very fast; it's only outsped by Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Alakazam, Talonflame, Greninja, and Tornadus-T.
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