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np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up
- Thread starter kokoloko
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Oh yeah, and you can't use a special scarfer (aka Hydreigon) cuz Quiver Dance increases special bulk
252 SpA Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Venomoth: 198-234 (70.2 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
BOP
unless 0 Atk Hydreigon Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 340-400 (120.5 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO kek
252 SpA Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Venomoth: 198-234 (70.2 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
BOP
unless 0 Atk Hydreigon Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 340-400 (120.5 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO kek
Well one little guy should be getting a bit more usage now that Haxorus and Venomoth are both UU
DITTO!
Honestly though, ditto is quite good at the moment at stopping haxorus and a lot of the potential receivers from Venomoth. Here are some calcs of some common receivers that you might want to know:
252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 366-432 (120.3 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 332-392 (86.4 - 102%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 294-348 (90.4 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Though it still can't stop a lot of others like M-Blastoise and probably Venomoth itself lol Q_Q
This moth will not be fun.
DITTO!
Honestly though, ditto is quite good at the moment at stopping haxorus and a lot of the potential receivers from Venomoth. Here are some calcs of some common receivers that you might want to know:
252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 366-432 (120.3 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 332-392 (86.4 - 102%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 294-348 (90.4 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Though it still can't stop a lot of others like M-Blastoise and probably Venomoth itself lol Q_Q
This moth will not be fun.
My only issue is that Venomoth can easily run Sub over an attacking moves since at +1 you outspeed most common Taunters (except Prankster) and put them to sleep, and even if Prankster you have 50% chance to evade Taunt anyway. Moreso the receiver can run Sub too. Or you can be like King UU and pass to sweepers like Suicune that Ditto loses to lol.Well one little guy should be getting a bit more usage now that Haxorus and Venomoth are both UU
DITTO!
Honestly though, ditto is quite good at the moment at stopping haxorus and a lot of the potential receivers from Venomoth. Here are some calcs of some common receivers that you might want to know:
252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 366-432 (120.3 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Nidoqueen: 332-392 (86.4 - 102%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 294-348 (90.4 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Though it still can't stop a lot of others like M-Blastoise and probably Venomoth itself lol Q_Q
This moth will not be fun.
im not assuming that. im assuming neither user is garbarge at the game and that venomoth has defog support. those are completely reasonable assumptions.
sleep powder's accuracy isn't a factor when determining brokenness. how do you go about that, anyway? "oh it's only broken 75% of the time so we should keep it"? what kind of argument is that??
sleep powder's accuracy isn't a factor when determining brokenness. how do you go about that, anyway? "oh it's only broken 75% of the time so we should keep it"? what kind of argument is that??
Here's a question for you all: are there any leads that you find overwhelmingly common so that you run bizarre move sets to donk said lead on Turn 1? If you ask me, this title goes to Swampert, but what do you all think? I've been toying around with Power Herb Solarbeam and such on Pokemon that rarely cover Grass coverage to catch it by surprise and forfeit the opponent's chance to set entry hazards, but I question the viability of this strategy.
I have been seeing a shitton of Swamperts lately, but it's not terribly threatening all things considered. No recovery, lots of really hard hitting Pokemon to answer it. Personally, I just bring in Kyurem on a predicted Scald/Rocks and Ice Beam for an easy 2HKO. Or Draco if he's taken prior damage and I don't want to eat an Earthquake. You don't have to OHKO your opponent's entire team. Personally, I dislike Donphan more because of Sturdy, which saves him from a lot of VERY easy OHKOs and lets him get off Rocks or spin when he'd otherwise be deadweight.
Don't ban Scald.
In most cases where I see Donphan in UU it is not the opponent's lead so I may have SR and maybe even spikes up before it comes in, at which point I can provide offensive pressure so that he either forfeits the chance to spin or dies. Swampert has much better mixed bulk and a much better defensive typing, plus access to utility in Roar and Scald. Thus I've always found Swampert more threatening and rarely is Donphan a better choice, as the most prevalent UU Spinner shares a weakness with both of them anyway (FYI I'm referring to Mega-Blastoise).
Little gimmiky, but I've been running a bit of speed with swampert on my recent sets to outpace -2 Jolly Banded Victini that think they are cheeky for attempting the 3hko with V-create after a switch and a predicted rocks. 36 EVs gets you there, and also has the benefit of outspeeding Empoleon consistently. Also outspeeds chesnaught randomly if you wanna be a dick and fish for scald burns... Impish really doesn't hurt scalds power all that much, since its really just burn fishing. 20% instead of 22% oh noes~ what will I do.
Also in regards to Hazards being a way to deal with Venomoth, it is incredibly easy to get rid of hazards in the UU meta as it stands. I spent like two hours attempting a Froslass spikestack team and came out with the same 'mons as Kokoloko's team. You need 3-4 fast taunters just to prevent defogging, especially from something as fast as crobat.
Also in regards to Hazards being a way to deal with Venomoth, it is incredibly easy to get rid of hazards in the UU meta as it stands. I spent like two hours attempting a Froslass spikestack team and came out with the same 'mons as Kokoloko's team. You need 3-4 fast taunters just to prevent defogging, especially from something as fast as crobat.
So, I finally had a chance to really sit down and test the moth. I still found the QuiverDance set hard to use. I found a more fun set, which worked pretty well. Somebody mentioned before about trapper moth. I found this set to be more interesting and can use Blissey who would normally switch into the Sleep Powder. The idea behind this set is that at base 90 speed, it can actually trap key pokes while setting up on them. In the below replay you see that a couple of pivots and Venomoth ultimately trapped and crippled Honchkrow, forcing a rage quit.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-145148465
I kind of find it to be in the same vein of Haxorus, where IF it sets up, it can be disastrous for the opponent. The pokes that were banned had very specific roles in mind and it was very easily to get the job done since they had few "counters" or "checks".
Daunt, Raptor and Zone were wallbreakers that didn't need set up
Thundy-T was an obliterator with excellent stats and coverage to cover the entire tier, both special and physical.
Torn-T wasn't as powerful as the others, but was an excellent stallbreaker combined with Regenerator
Klefki was different, but its role as a defensive support almost guaranteed its job will get done thanks to Prankster and it's excellent typing. It was almost guaranteed to get multiple layers of spikes down without any ease.
Now, these pokes were guaranteed to get their job done, whether it was to wallbreak, stallbreak or support. There were very few pokes that could actually STOP them from doing their roles. Has anybody been able to get Veno to set up and pass the boost to sweep every single game or most of the games? I haven't been able to do this, but maybe some of the tier leaders have had a different experience?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-145148465
I kind of find it to be in the same vein of Haxorus, where IF it sets up, it can be disastrous for the opponent. The pokes that were banned had very specific roles in mind and it was very easily to get the job done since they had few "counters" or "checks".
Daunt, Raptor and Zone were wallbreakers that didn't need set up
Thundy-T was an obliterator with excellent stats and coverage to cover the entire tier, both special and physical.
Torn-T wasn't as powerful as the others, but was an excellent stallbreaker combined with Regenerator
Klefki was different, but its role as a defensive support almost guaranteed its job will get done thanks to Prankster and it's excellent typing. It was almost guaranteed to get multiple layers of spikes down without any ease.
Now, these pokes were guaranteed to get their job done, whether it was to wallbreak, stallbreak or support. There were very few pokes that could actually STOP them from doing their roles. Has anybody been able to get Veno to set up and pass the boost to sweep every single game or most of the games? I haven't been able to do this, but maybe some of the tier leaders have had a different experience?
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
I highly recommend you Patrick1088 to not use that Venemoth set and just go with a Quiver Dance Baton Pass set if your team could use a nice recipient (both Wonder Skin and Tinted Lens are great abilities I'm not sure which I would use) because the potential pay off is much greater. Best case scenario for your Toxic Spikes set is you get some Toxic Spikes up; you can't even really trap and kill any defensive Pokemon because you are so weak. Best case scenario for the standard Quiver Pass sets are you get a game breaking sweep and because Venemoth gets so many free turns just be existing (Sleep Powder, possibly Focus Sash, very high speed after a boost) and the amount of recipients are numerous the chance for a sweep is nearly always present.
kokoloko Sleep Powder's accuracy is a factor, almost by all reasonable standards of bans. If it was 100% accurate (Spore basically) then surely there would be more people clamoring for it's ban. If it was a miserable Sing like move it wouldn't even be considered reliable enough to use by most players as indicated by people not using for instance Inferno Chandelure. Inferno Chandelure or Houndoom would be considered by many people broken if you didn't consider accuracy. And it is more than just that, accuracy is just another part of the RNG. If you didn't consider that Confuse Ray Sableye didn't always work then surely many people would say Sableye is broken. but Sableye doesn't always work with Confuse Ray just as Venemoth won't always work because Sleep Powder misses and that needs to be considered. Exactly how much consideration you give it though is, probably, more of a personal preference.
For the lead discussion, Azelf leads are fantastic for HO right now and unless you are using another similarly structured suicide lead like Froslass I can't imagine a better way to lead no matter what for HO. Except for random Scarfers with U-Turners but those are always good.
kokoloko Sleep Powder's accuracy is a factor, almost by all reasonable standards of bans. If it was 100% accurate (Spore basically) then surely there would be more people clamoring for it's ban. If it was a miserable Sing like move it wouldn't even be considered reliable enough to use by most players as indicated by people not using for instance Inferno Chandelure. Inferno Chandelure or Houndoom would be considered by many people broken if you didn't consider accuracy. And it is more than just that, accuracy is just another part of the RNG. If you didn't consider that Confuse Ray Sableye didn't always work then surely many people would say Sableye is broken. but Sableye doesn't always work with Confuse Ray just as Venemoth won't always work because Sleep Powder misses and that needs to be considered. Exactly how much consideration you give it though is, probably, more of a personal preference.
For the lead discussion, Azelf leads are fantastic for HO right now and unless you are using another similarly structured suicide lead like Froslass I can't imagine a better way to lead no matter what for HO. Except for random Scarfers with U-Turners but those are always good.
Froslass is just not viable in the current metagame; it's rivaled by Azelf, who also has fewer weaknesses not to mention the better offenses and movepool. Knock Off ruins it completely, and the only steel type it can cripple is Lucario. A good player can bring in a Defog/Rapid Spin user to get rid of the Spikes. It's effects just aren't lasting. Destiny Bond and Shadow Ball are the only two common moves on it that end up having a lasting effect on the opposing team. It has too many weaknesses to do much effectively.
It's outclassed by lots of Pokémon, like Azelf and Mega-Aero. Most players also sacrifice it early, making a big mistake there. koko's RMT is the only team with it that uses its Speed effectively and relies on Taunt/T-Wave/Destiny Bond more than Spikes. It's really hard to play, and just doesn't create a lasting effect against a team with hazard removal and a cleric. It also can't take a hit without a Sash, as it has too many weaknesses, doesn't have Levitate, and is weak to SR.
tl;dr: please don't use this without a proper understanding of how to play it and have it make a lasting effect on the opposing team.
It's outclassed by lots of Pokémon, like Azelf and Mega-Aero. Most players also sacrifice it early, making a big mistake there. koko's RMT is the only team with it that uses its Speed effectively and relies on Taunt/T-Wave/Destiny Bond more than Spikes. It's really hard to play, and just doesn't create a lasting effect against a team with hazard removal and a cleric. It also can't take a hit without a Sash, as it has too many weaknesses, doesn't have Levitate, and is weak to SR.
tl;dr: please don't use this without a proper understanding of how to play it and have it make a lasting effect on the opposing team.
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pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
I like to use extremely offensive teams, it is probably my favorite playstyle and once you get a feel for them you realize you don't need a spinblocker always and can freely use suicide hazard users. Defog is always a possibility but make it so if they use Defog you get a +1,+1 Haxorus ready to tear some holes in the defenses of your opponent. Mega Blastoise might seem an even bigger problem because he can get rid of only your hazards but even so if he does make sure you land Lucario's Close Combat for at least 50% or so in his face. The whole point of hazards is to weaken the opponent for a sweep so often I will gladly spend a turn or two setting up hazards if it means I get to make otherwise good walls like Forretress and Megatoise waste time spinning. I would say Kingpoleon essentially you are completely wrong and Froslass is very viable.
You have to be kidding me.
Froslass is very viable in UU. It is one of the best Spikes users around, and is pretty great on offensive teams. It can set up Spikes, which can do heavy damage on many Pokemon that switch in and allow many offensive Pokemon to achieve 2HKOes and OHKOes more effectively. It has Taunt, Destiny Bond, and Cursed Body, which are all great and make it quite annoying. It can spinblock its own hazards, so other spinners can't spin away its own Spikes while it's in, while its fast Taunt allows it to deny Defog from most users except Crobat. It can shut down a move used against it in some cases, and also get a free kill.
Your post also seems to assume that you absolutely in all situations have to lead with Froslass, and that is not true. Against slower teams that don't have a way to handle Froslass, you lead. If they have something like, say, Mew, you could take away any Froslass answers, then come in. Anyways, your post was frankly wrong and I strongly disagree. There's a good reason why it sees decent usage in 1760 stats and is ranked A- in the viability thread.
Replies in bold.
my thoughts in bold
Frosslass is pretty anti meta, beating a lot of leads such as scarf mienshao and the likes. Taunt can shut down things such as mew, and destiny bond beats spinners, such as mega blastoise.
idk, it is just the best spiker in uu atm
Anti meta does not equal viable. Calling me completely wrong isn't offensive at all. Spiking isn't that important, and we have Forretress if you really want. Froslass is really hard to play for most players hilarious , so I wouldn't say that it's a very good Pokémon. Also, who uses Scarf Mienshao without Knock Off? Not to mention, Destiny Bond, by that definition, beats everything.
You need to read Scrafty's post again Kingpoleon. He outlines answers to both your questions that you asked in reply to his post.
The only distinction I'll make is that froslass is one of the best OFFENSIVE spikers this tier has. Forretress is a poor fit for offense, in regards to that spikes example. The only other spiker that could halfway offer froslass competition on offensive teams is maybe roserade, due to the sleep powder + spikes combo finally being allowed.
The only reason froslass seems not as good this meta is that unlike last gen, you can't simply run sashlass + another ghost and be confident of keeping your spikes up for the rest of the match. This meta requires much more thought due to the number of better rapid spin users and defog that also hinder win conditions on HO.
The only distinction I'll make is that froslass is one of the best OFFENSIVE spikers this tier has. Forretress is a poor fit for offense, in regards to that spikes example. The only other spiker that could halfway offer froslass competition on offensive teams is maybe roserade, due to the sleep powder + spikes combo finally being allowed.
The only reason froslass seems not as good this meta is that unlike last gen, you can't simply run sashlass + another ghost and be confident of keeping your spikes up for the rest of the match. This meta requires much more thought due to the number of better rapid spin users and defog that also hinder win conditions on HO.
Why the fuck are we talking about Froslass when it is well established that it is plenty viable this gen scoring an A- in viability thread. If someone insists the contrariwise without providing solid arguements we might as well just ignore it and focus back on Moth?
With moth back in the tier and its sleep powder forcing bunch of 50/50s I have come up using safety goggles on phazers on my balance teams lol (Safety Goggles Roar Arcanine, to be exact). I used to use Rocky Helmet on it anyway so I don't find the lack of lefties an issue, and it still counters Victini just as well, but still running an otherwise useless item and move bothers me a bit. How do you prevent venomoth from doing its job? Do you this is merely an adaption to a top tier support threat or a sign of overcentralisation?
With moth back in the tier and its sleep powder forcing bunch of 50/50s I have come up using safety goggles on phazers on my balance teams lol (Safety Goggles Roar Arcanine, to be exact). I used to use Rocky Helmet on it anyway so I don't find the lack of lefties an issue, and it still counters Victini just as well, but still running an otherwise useless item and move bothers me a bit. How do you prevent venomoth from doing its job? Do you this is merely an adaption to a top tier support threat or a sign of overcentralisation?
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So I won't get infracted: Venomoth is broken. It was broken back when it first got banned, and it certainly can't be LESS broken after we get Special Ape, Hydra, and Umbreon falling out of favor. Yes we have Blissey, but she still doesn't want to eat the Megahorns, Superpowers, Close Combats that the receivers of these boosts often carry. Even mons that don't run physical moves can break through her with the right coverage:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Raikou Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 354-416 (49.5 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Seems pretty open and shut to me. This meta is already offensive as shit and keeping Moth would be throwing the third pile of dirt over the coffin filled with nails that is stall.
lol the reason he has half the mons on his team are because of spikes alone. taunt aero, 2 ghosts, taunt crobat. twave destiny bond and taunt are there to help it set up spikes and keep the opponent honest.
frosslass is an incredible mon
My little cent about Venomoth. He's actual a BL and there are valid reasons to thinking nowadays the same too. His QuickPass set (together with a good defogger/spinner) will be a real threat in all UU matches. How is this not enough he has just Wonder Skin which reduces the accuracy of a status move to 50%. It's not too difficult to do a QD or sleep power and opponent picks and chooses wrong 50%, and so probabily another boost. Baton Pass could guarantee a solid option to save boosts directing in a teammate mon.
I think he should be broken and making many UU games boring.
I think he should be broken and making many UU games boring.
Venomoth have a lot of points in their favour; this is what makes Venomoth unreliable to handle and in my opinion makes broken, Quiver Dance Baton Pass with Wonder Skin and Sleep Powder is insane, Sleep accuracy doesn't matter or maybe even makes Venomoth more annoying because sometimes when you predict right and switch into something which auto loses to Venomoth just only to take the Sleep Powder turn, actually if Sleep Powder misses fucks you over everything because now this pokemon is setupp fodder for Venomoth.
So you need to handle Venomoth like a faster mon which can outrun Venomoth at +1, mostly physical ones because SpD boost which can HKO Venomoth in 1 turn and actually several 50-50 just predicting Quiver Dance or Sleep Powder because you cant switch safely unless you're using Sleep Talk and you needs be lucky with that.
This tier is also plagued of great defoggers/spinners (Mew, Mega-Aerodactyl, Crobat, Mega-Blastoise, Starmie and Donphan mostly) so is not hard to remove Stealth Rock to preserve their Focus Sash and sweep, actually the only bad matchup for Venomoth are offensive fast teams which can setupp Stealth Rock on early game with their suicide lead to break venomoth focus sash, getting that extra damage + offense pressure being able a lot of these mons to beat Venomoth in 1vs1, plus usually this kind of teams uses a scarf + priorities.
So you need to handle Venomoth like a faster mon which can outrun Venomoth at +1, mostly physical ones because SpD boost which can HKO Venomoth in 1 turn and actually several 50-50 just predicting Quiver Dance or Sleep Powder because you cant switch safely unless you're using Sleep Talk and you needs be lucky with that.
This tier is also plagued of great defoggers/spinners (Mew, Mega-Aerodactyl, Crobat, Mega-Blastoise, Starmie and Donphan mostly) so is not hard to remove Stealth Rock to preserve their Focus Sash and sweep, actually the only bad matchup for Venomoth are offensive fast teams which can setupp Stealth Rock on early game with their suicide lead to break venomoth focus sash, getting that extra damage + offense pressure being able a lot of these mons to beat Venomoth in 1vs1, plus usually this kind of teams uses a scarf + priorities.
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