np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up

[effyouzion]

I've used quick pass teams with Venomoth and I just don't find it as consistent as "normal" teams. If I can't win a lot of games consistently with a gimmick, then I don't consider it broken.

The only exception to that is evasion and OHKO moves. Those are inconsistent gimmicks that are worth banning because they make the game uncompetitive. I don't think Venomoth is uncompetitive, so I think it should stay. Even stall can find answers for him (throw dragon tail on a random mon, etc).

 

[Godsend]

You don't use "quick pass teams" over "normal teams" you use a good "normal team" with a Venomoth to quick pass.

 

[effyouzion]

You don't use "quick pass teams" over "normal teams" you use a good "normal team" with a Venomoth to quick pass.

You're just arguing semantics. Who cares what I call it? You get my point.

 

[Sleepless]

It seems that Sleep Powder is a giant factor regarding Venomoth's success as it brings rise to the 50/50 situations, being able to put to sleep the scarfers that would otherwise kill the +1/+1/+1 moth. If so, I've taken a quick small glance at all the somewhat UU viable mons that are immune to Sleep Powder :
- Forretress (OverCoat), resists Bug Buzz, hurts with Gyro Ball or Volt Switches to an appropriate answer.
- Escavalier (OverCoat), resists Bug Buzz, rather bulky and hits strong on the more weaker unboosted physical side.
- Roserade (grass type), neutral to Bug Buzz and has rather decent Special Def, but hits on the special side and speed ties with unboosted Venomoth.
- Whimsicott (grass type), neutral to Bug Buzz, can prankster Encore to either Sleep Powder/Quiver Dance.
- Amoonguss (grass type), neutral to Bug Buzz, can Spore either Venomoth through Wonder Skin or the receiver. Not too reliable method of beating moth.
- Virizion (grass type), neutral to Bug Buzz, high sp. def(for example much higher than Chesnaught), naturally faster and access to Roar.
- Trevenant (grass type), neutral to Bug Buzz, may Curse (it's baton passed) and affords to lose the health due to Rest/Sitrus.
- (Mega) Banette (insomnia pre mega), resists Bug Buzz, through Protect+Priority Curse it may stop Moth's attempt to chain. May Pursuit and kill if moth is weakened.
- Goodra (Sap Sipper), monster sp. def, access to Dragon Tail.

I would sure to try some and post if I will get any founding but I wanted to spark some discussion on controlling Venomoth.

 

[Machi]

I've used quick pass teams with Venomoth and I just don't find it as consistent as "normal" teams. If I can't win a lot of games consistently with a gimmick, then I don't consider it broken.

The only exception to that is evasion and OHKO moves. Those are inconsistent gimmicks that are worth banning because they make the game uncompetitive. I don't think Venomoth is uncompetitive, so I think it should stay. Even stall can find answers for him (throw dragon tail on a random mon, etc).

A) It is not a gimmick... There is nothing inconsistent about Venomoth being able to pass given its ability, typing, and movepool (there goes your dragon tail) as well as the consistency of what a +1 boost brings to the table, even if you don't pass to a special attacker that +1 Speed is still valuable to any given sweeper and +1 SpD can be just as helpful in boosting in providing added bulk for set up. Gimmicks are by nature match up dependent or rather inconsistent, in a nutshell niche. The flaw I find with people using Venomoth and having difficulty with Quiverpassing is that often they tend to get too greedy or careless but that is more a fault of players rather than the mon.

B) It isn't semantics as a quick pass team implies you tried to build around Venomoth rather than having Venomoth support the team itself, which is a big difference in how dependent your team would be for a win condition.

 

[effyouzion]

A) It is not a gimmick... There is nothing inconsistent about Venomoth being able to pass given its ability, typing, and movepool (there goes your dragon tail) as well as the consistency of what a +1 boost brings to the table, even if you don't pass to a special attacker that +1 Speed is still valuable to any given sweeper and +1 SpD can be just as helpful in boosting in providing added bulk for set up. Gimmicks are by nature match up dependent or rather inconsistent, in a nutshell niche.

I didn't say that Venomoth is inconsistent at passing. I said Venomoth teams are inconsistent at winning. Big difference.

B) It isn't semantics as a quick pass team implies you tried to build around Venomoth rather than having Venomoth support the team itself, which is a big difference in how dependent your team would be for a win condition.

That's not what I implied at all. You're assuming things instead of reading what I said.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

It seems that Sleep Powder is a giant factor regarding Venomoth's success as it brings rise to the 50/50 situations, being able to put to sleep the scarfers that would otherwise kill the +1/+1/+1 moth. If so, I've taken a quick small glance at all the somewhat UU viable mons that are immune to Sleep Powder :
- Forretress (OverCoat), resists Bug Buzz, hurts with Gyro Ball or Volt Switches to an appropriate answer.
- Escavalier (OverCoat), resists Bug Buzz, rather bulky and hits strong on the more weaker unboosted physical side.
- Roserade (grass type), neutral to Bug Buzz and has rather decent Special Def, but hits on the special side and speed ties with unboosted Venomoth.
- Whimsicott (grass type), neutral to Bug Buzz, can prankster Encore to either Sleep Powder/Quiver Dance.
- Amoonguss (grass type), neutral to Bug Buzz, can Spore either Venomoth through Wonder Skin or the receiver. Not too reliable method of beating moth.
- Virizion (grass type), neutral to Bug Buzz, high sp. def(for example much higher than Chesnaught), naturally faster and access to Roar.
- Trevenant (grass type), neutral to Bug Buzz, may Curse (it's baton passed) and affords to lose the health due to Rest/Sitrus.
- (Mega) Banette (insomnia pre mega), resists Bug Buzz, through Protect+Priority Curse it may stop Moth's attempt to chain. May Pursuit and kill if moth is weakened.
- Goodra (Sap Sipper), monster sp. def, access to Dragon Tail.

I would sure to try some and post if I will get any founding but I wanted to spark some discussion on controlling Venomoth.

In Whimsicott's case Veno can dodge the encore 50% of the time so it is inconsistent too. Goodra is also fucked if it doesn't go Adamant max attack as otherwise it won't break Max/Max Venomoth's subs with Drag Tail

 

[PokèManiac Livio]

Like many of the recent ban can confirm, the community is rightly re-evaluating the competitiveness of the Baton Pass move, and, specifically in the lower tier, the validity of so called "Mexican strats" - quick pass in this particular case - in a competitive context. Venomoth is a prime example of how these strategies are not really that competitive and how pokemon like these are dangerous for this simple reason, it has in fact a pretty good base speed (90), decent evasion trait like Wonder Skin, a good sleep move that ensures at least one turn of free setup and, above all, one of the best set up move of the game, Quiver Dance, giving chance to win easy even to people who have never played in this tier, not little stuff, I would say. Also building around it is something really stupid, take a Venomoth, support it with an hazard cleaner and fill the remaining slots with some good recipients and random revengekillers, nothing but easy. We should also consider that UU provides excellent recipient to Venomoth, an example would be Nidoking, that thanks his coverage can pull down every kind of team and is walled exclusively by Blissey. It whitout doubts deserves to remain in BL, stuff like Venomoth or geomancy pass Smeargle can t roam freely in UU if we want an healty and competitive tier.

 

[Machi]

I didn't say that Venomoth is inconsistent at passing. I said Venomoth teams are inconsistent at winning. Big difference.

That's not what I implied at all. You're assuming things instead of reading what I said.

That is the point of Godsend you don't build Venomoth teams you simply add it on as a support to your existing one rather than be entirely dependent on it as your win condition, and it helps that it doesn't exactly deviate from standards in team building so that you'd go out of your way to make it work (hazard control is pretty much mandatory in this tier with so many tools available). The thing about its support is that it has everything going for it so that it can consistently pass and you'll be the one under pressure of whatever it passed to and working around that, and no other mon has this mix of factors that are just over the.

The thing you have to consider about support suspects are they aren't full blown win conditions but they do create very heavy pressure nonetheless as you are often scrambling to react. That when you do consider support suspects you look at the ease at which it is able to do its role without much hindrances, and Venomoth has everything going for it. Honestly, this is my gripe whenever a suspect tends to fall under a category that isn't a sweeper people think it has to be an easy win condition, not that it doesn't help in wins, but they don't consider the ease at which it is capable of fulfilling its role with very little risk for high reward, and Quiverdance is a high reward boost.

 

[effyouzion]

That is the point of Godsend you don't build Venomoth teams you simply add it on as a support to your existing one rather than be entirely dependent on it as your win condition, and it helps that it doesn't exactly deviate from standards in team building so that you'd go out of your way to make it work. The thing about its support is that it has everything going for it so that it can consistently pass and you'll be the one under pressure of whatever it passed to and working around that.

That's exactly why it's inconsistent at winning. In order for Venomoth to be worthwhile, he needs to be able to pass. I don't see too many Venomoth sweeps, so l Venomoth is a wasted teamslot unless:

1) You can actually pass (literally impossible vs. certain teams, such as dragon tail Goodra)
2) Your sleep powders hit and last long
3) Your pass recipient gets in safely and is NOT easy to revenge

That's a pretty big wish list. Lets say your sleep hits, you danced up, while I went to my band Victini. Whatever you pass to is not going to want to take a hit unless it's something like Suicune. And +1 Suicune isn't exactly hard to find a switch in for.

Stall can do things like put dragon tail on random mons to counter the dancing.

 

[Machi]

That's exactly why it's inconsistent at winning. Venomoth is a wasted teamslot unless:

1) You can actually pass (literally impossible vs. certain teams, such as dragon tail Goodra)
2) Your sleep powders hit and last long
3) Your pass recipient gets in safely and is NOT easy to revenge

That's a pretty big wish list. Lets say your sleep hits, you danced up, while I went to my band Victini. Whatever you pass to is not going to want to take a hit unless it's something like Suicune. And +1 Suicune isn't exactly hard to find a switch in for.

That is a problem with being greedy you don't just pass to a mon and immediately think you've won when you know full well that the things capable of walling you or stopping your sweeper cold still exist. Even then it is not as if Venomoth is entirely out of options to avoid things like Dtail or V-create when it opts to use a sub. Again this is the problem with the players rather than the mon in that they completely disregard foresight or prediction just because they have a +1 boost, yes it is an advantage but you still have to take into account how to utilize it wisely.

It is no different than say Deo-D's hazards it doesn't preclude that you have to be brainless with regard to your sweep just because you managed to set up full hazards. You still do need to play correctly, however, the support it provides and the ease at which it can do so does add pressure to the opponent as it is an immediate advantage.

 

[effyouzion]

That is a problem with being greedy you don't just pass to a mon and immediately think you've won when you know full well that the things capable of walling you or stopping your sweeper cold still exist. Even then it is not as if Venomoth is entirely out of options to avoid things like Dtail or V-create when it opts to use a sub. Again this is the problem with the players rather than the mon in that they completely disregard foresight or prediction just because they have a +1 boost, yes it is an advantage but you still have to take into account how to utilize it wisely.

It is no different than say Deo-D's hazards it doesn't preclude that you have to be brainless with regard to your sweep just because you managed to set up full hazards. You still do need to play correctly, however, the support it provides and the ease at which it can do so does add pressure to the opponent.

Let me say that a different way:

I think we can all agree that Venomoth is not sweeping teams. Venomoth exists solely to pass boosts. You're basically playing 5 on 6 with Venomoth. In order to come out ahead in this scenario, you need whatever your pass recipient is to take out at least 3 mons before it dies (which leaves you with 4 left and the other guy with 3).

That's just unrealistic to expect your pass recipient to do that much damage every time, and I think you agree with me on that. That is why Venomoth teams are inconsistent at winning. You have a wasted mon a good portion of the time

I don't think he's broken.

 

[Machi]

Let me say that a different way:

I think we can all agree that Venomoth is not sweeping teams. Venomoth exists solely to pass boosts. You're basically playing 5 on 6 with Venomoth. In order to come out ahead in this scenario, you need whatever your pass recipient is to take out at least 3 mons before it dies (which leaves you with 4 left and the other guy with 3).

That's just unrealistic to expect your pass recipient to do that much damage every time, and I think you agree with me on that. That is why Venomoth teams are inconsistent at winning.

I don't think he's broken.

And this is where I disagree with your use in thinking that it has to be used that early to punch holes rather than considering its use for later game or when X or Y wall/revenge killer is down. You could say you are 5 to 6 if you want but knowing that you only really need to take down one or two checks/counters at best certainly eases things on your side as the rest should easily crumble. Even then just having Venomoth out on the field immediately precludes having to switch in an appropriate response which can be very easily worn out since not responding to it is a big mistake, so even if you consider it dead weight I don't since I know my opponent is pressured to respond and cannot simply ignore it so I don't consider that dead weight at all since forcing a switch can be good enough in gaining momentum if need be.

 

[Patrick1088]

Would haxorus mold breaker taunt work through the accuracy drop of wonderskin?

 

[Mahmudkipz]

Would haxorus mold breaker taunt work through the accuracy drop of wonderskin?

Yes it does, but carrying Taunt on a moderately frail powerhouse confuzzles me lol. It is not like you need Taunt for anything than Moth, you should be setting up or smashing things with Haxorus right away

 

[effyouzion]

And this is where I disagree with your use in thinking that it has to be used that early to punch holes rather than considering its use for later game or when X or Y wall/revenge killer is down. You could say you are 5 to 6 if you want but knowing that you only really need to take down one or two checks/counters at best certainly eases things on your side as the rest should easily crumble. Even then just having Venomoth out on the field immediately precludes having to switch in an appropriate response which can be very easily worn out since not responding to it is a big mistake, so even if you consider it dead weight I don't since I know my opponent is pressured to respond and cannot simply ignore it so I don't consider that dead weight at all since forcing a switch can be good enough in gaining momentum if need be.

So forcing switches is bannable material now?

 

[Aragorn the King]

Would haxorus mold breaker taunt work through the accuracy drop of wonderskin?

Yes. Mold Breaker negates Wonder Skin.

 

[Machi]

So forcing switches is bannable material now?

No but it is certainly not as dead weight as you put it since it certainly does force the opponent to react because it is a much higher risk on their end that yours, either through a Quiver Dance passed or Sleep Powder. Regardless, I don't see it as necessarily 5-6 when it can apply pressure the way it does through its support. It is not a simple it will do its role once and that is the end of it much like a suicide lead would, as its support can be used through out the match if it comes down to it rather than simply being sacced.

 

[effyouzion]

No but it is certainly not as dead weight as you put it since it certainly does force the opponent to react because it is a much higher risk on their end that yours, either through a Quiver Dance passed or Sleep Powder.

I disagree. Offensive teams simply leave whatever they have in and go for the attack. If moth QDs, he's fucked. If they get slept, switch out and hit the moth with whatever else you have. Not hard to find mons that don't die to a +1 uninvested bug buzz and can also hit hard. 75% accuracy on sleep powder is not helping this case.

Defensive teams still have dragon tail, or can predict roar on the turn that BP is used. Or hell, just roar Venomoth until he gets phased out: that 50% from wonder skin isn't 0%.

 

[Machi]

I disagree. Offensive teams simply leave whatever they have in and go for the attack. If moth QDs, he's fucked. If they get slept, switch out and hit the moth with whatever else you have. Not hard to find mons that don't die to a +1 uninvested bug buzz and can also hit hard. 75% accuracy on sleep powder is not helping this case.

Defensive teams still have dragon tail, or can predict roar on the turn that BP is used. Or hell, just roar Venomoth until he gets phased out: that 50% from wonder skin isn't 0%.

You would have to be a pretty bad user to simply switch Venomoth in willy nilly like that or not take into account the very limited but obvious phazers and attempt a sweep or set up through there. I see your situation as being more the problem of the player and lack of foresight than actual issues with Moth, again I doubt Moth would just attempt to set up on an offensive team so carefree.

 

[effyouzion]

You would have to be a pretty bad user to simply switch Venomoth in willy nilly like that or not take into account the very limited but obvious phazers and attempt a sweep or set up through there.

And you would have to be a pretty bad player to let your Venomoth counter die when Venomoth is clearly a threat.

 

[DiscoDucky]

After playing around with QDPass teams, I'd say that it's pretty hard to beat and to actually get past it is heavily RNG based. I've been messing around with QD Hyper Offense. The core consists of Venomoth, Hydreigon, Nidoking, and Jirachi. The reason for a trio core is that all three form extremely strong defensive synergy and can reduce the amount of counterplay when Moth passes. Also, I ran Substitute over Bug Buzz because ot gave me safe QD opps as well as allow recipients to come in safely, reducing random or predicted counterplay even more. The designated mon then proceeds to 6-0 the entire team. Even if the recipient dies, if you play it right, Moth should be relatively healthy to start the process over again.

 

[Bad Ass]

I think the theorymon problem with Venomoth is that you kind of have to make a 50/50 guess if the opponent has it. Do you swap to your sleep absorber and risk it getting off a Quiver Dance, or do you go to your Scarfer and risk it getting slept? Of course that is theorymon. Venomoth will not get in cleanly every game. Unfortunately I haven't seen a single Venomoth over like 50+ games so I really can't say out of experience.

On another note i think that Granbull is more than just a trend. I actually gave him a try on the ladder and the amount of stuff I found that I had SO MUCH less trouble with was crazy. Scarf Hydreigon, CB Heracross, Mega Absol, Lucario, and a lot of other mons get hard walled. Heal Bell support is also a godsend with WoW and Scald being so common. Especially paired with Wish support it has been a surprisingly strong member of my team.

 

[Sleepless]

In Whimsicott's case Veno can dodge the encore 50% of the time so it is inconsistent too. Goodra is also fucked if it doesn't go Adamant max attack as otherwise it won't break Max/Max Venomoth's subs with Drag Tail

Yea, I seemed to not fully understand the ability Wonder Skin, as Encore and less common tactics, such as Curse and Perish Song are affected by it just like Taunt.
Whenever Venomoth will be retested in the future ( if assuming it's upcoming current ban ), maybe the ability Wonder Skin could be tested regarding the moth's status and maybe proven balanced as without it. Taunt and Encore tactics from Sableye and Whimsicott ( which is currently good at countering double dance haxorus ) will be safeproof against it. An argument pro would be, similar to Swagger in OU and Ubers, the ability is uncompetitive as it relies on rng having 50% to work. An argument against would be, it isn't Venomoth's signature ability, and while the only other users of it are Sigilyph, which has better abilities to run in Magic Guard and even Tinted Lins, and Delcatty, which has no competitive value, thus proving the ability in itself isn't breaking those two and isn't broken outside of Venomoth.

 

[Limitless]

I think the theorymon problem with Venomoth is that you kind of have to make a 50/50 guess if the opponent has it. Do you swap to your sleep absorber and risk it getting off a Quiver Dance, or do you go to your Scarfer and risk it getting slept? Of course that is theorymon. Venomoth will not get in cleanly every game. Unfortunately I haven't seen a single Venomoth over like 50+ games so I really can't say out of experience.

On another note i think that Granbull is more than just a trend. I actually gave him a try on the ladder and the amount of stuff I found that I had SO MUCH less trouble with was crazy. Scarf Hydreigon, CB Heracross, Mega Absol, Lucario, and a lot of other mons get hard walled. Heal Bell support is also a godsend with WoW and Scald being so common. Especially paired with Wish support it has been a surprisingly strong member of my team.

The new pink core is strong.