Thing is, people would just start using Blissey with Chansey as double imposters. Species clause would do nothing for that.
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Ladder Balanced Hackmons
- Thread starter verbatim
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On the topic of species clause, while I think it's a good idea, I think it would be better to, similar to the ability clause, limit it to two of the same Pokemon. Two Chanseys is hardly broken, as by the time you get around to fillling up the holes in your team with an anti-PH for both sides of the spectrum, a Gengar counter, all the while including necessary things like a bouncer and various support moves such as defog, you find yourself with little space to add to the rest of the team (Also Whatwasthatnoise made a fair point about those teams just switching to Blissey). The real reason I think that adding a species clause would be a good idea is for teams that only consist of 5 mega mewtwos and an imposter that basically rip you apart if you only have 1 general counter to said Pokemon and win or lose on team match-up. Hell, even 6 Mega-Gengars can get you somewhere on the ladder, as shown by TheBurgerKing99, who was able to get to the top 10 on the ladder using a cookie-cutter team.
My reasoning for making it a limit of 2 instead of 1, however, is that teams with say, 2 MM2X's are actually strategic compared to the teams that use 5 or 6 of them. The teams with 2 of them actually have a goal in mind: To have one of them weaken its counters so that the other one can sweep, all the while having a team that doesn't decide the game on team match-up and can be viable otherwise. It also doesn't eliminate things like Imposter + Unaware Chansey for example which would have almost nothing to do with the intended purpose of the clause in the first place.
Thoughts?
My reasoning for making it a limit of 2 instead of 1, however, is that teams with say, 2 MM2X's are actually strategic compared to the teams that use 5 or 6 of them. The teams with 2 of them actually have a goal in mind: To have one of them weaken its counters so that the other one can sweep, all the while having a team that doesn't decide the game on team match-up and can be viable otherwise. It also doesn't eliminate things like Imposter + Unaware Chansey for example which would have almost nothing to do with the intended purpose of the clause in the first place.
Thoughts?
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
Being a Hackmons player that runs 2 Pure Power MMX with different coverage, I can vouch for this being true.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
THIS SET SUCKS HORRIBLY AND YOU SHOULD USE THE STANDARD SET SCRUB.
on a more serious note, this set is definatly a neat little gimmic you got. something id consider, since weather isnt all that common, is to run focus sash so if you are pursuited by a mold breaker, you have a "extra" life. and maybe change to parting shot/volt switch/baton pass, seriously though, idk about you guys, but i find that set to be very creative, and it could work too. another problem though, is defog, however, even with one turn of free setup, shedinja is filling the role quite decently. like honestly, this is making me want to try the set myself. call me crazy, but it might not be endevoir shed, but it is still a niche
also in relative to klangs post, thats exactly what makes it a broken aspect. i mean, having two pokemon who are fast, bulky, strong as shit and can take down almost the 90% of the teir togeather singlehandedly is a very overpowered aspect in the meta. like, my one team has only lost to four teams in particular...one the guy knew my team, and i was outpredicted horribly, one was klang and kumi, and the other, was just the sheer offensive pressure of 3 mega mewtwo y, two mega mewtwo x, and a mold breaker gengar. i hate having to lose to a team, that won SOLELY due to the sheer offensive pressure it kept up, if we go the "2 of each ability" then im just going to say then we NEED to enforce megamewtwo as one pokemon, otherwise this clause is just pointless. im sorry, but i dont want to face a team with 6 pokemon with great bulk, INSANE offenses, and speed that only 4 VIABLE bh pokes can ever HOPE to outspeed/speed tie. and yes, i had counters to mega mewtwo x and y,i had priority, i had kings sheild, i had protean mega lati with soul dew(that never got knocked off might i add) i had chansey and i couldve dealt with them given they didn't wear them down and had like...an entire team of them.
also thats also why we have an entire clusterfuck of pokemon to work with. lol. blissey...mega blaziken...they are still viable and it wouldn't sacrifice much.
Mewtwo, Mewtwo-Mega-Y, and Mewtwo-Mega-X already have the same dex number, so you wouldn't be able to run two MM2X alongside two MM2Y in my proposed clause for the same reason you can't run more than one rotom forme in standard. Either two of one or one of both, no more.
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This is a very good point. Kinda need a double Imposter clause, then.
Double Imposter is VERY broken. It's bad enough Imposters make scouting ridiculously easy, and that the possibility of one Imposter forces you to make all your sweepers' movesets Imposter-proof instead of something that can actually add some interesting much-needed variety to the metagame... but Doubling the number of Imposters only serves to amplify the overpowered shenanigans they can pull.
* Cosmic Power tanking pretty much dies out because those things can just switch among each other indefinitely to retain YOUR stat boosts, but with infinite PP. Similar things can happen with Evasion, but it's annoying enough to get rid of on its own anyway.
* The differences in their movesets can lead to a wide variety of things you can do "just in case" Imposter doesn't work. There are zillions of support options available for a pokemon in BH, and with Chansey already exceling in it, you essentially have a supporter for your supporter. Think: You put up a sub in an attempt to stop Imposters, but the first one encores you to force a switch, and the second comes in when that happens. If you don't switch, the second can do whatever and switch back, both of them working in tandem to build up pressure for you to do so.
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
So why is it broken? Who even uses double imposter (I only know one person who does this)? While you can scout twice as much and potentially have some surprise factor with spoopy plate (or be Seismitoad and run Based Hax Fist), competent players will know that you're running double imposter by the hp they have, and will react accordingly.
I'd prefer to keep it to single species clause simply because that's how how species clause has always worked. Ability clause had no precedent. But species clause always goes with a single mon of each dex number. Plus I don't buy the "can run two of the same mon with different sets so species clause is bad" argument. The same applies to standard. For example, specs and phys Aegilsash, Band and Support Talonflame, Scarf and Megachomp, two of any 3 billion Mew or Smeargle sets, physical wall and offensive Tangrowth, hazard-lead and screen Deoxys, support and crocune Cresselia, and so on and so forth. Yet, despite that variety, no other metagame except Pure Hacks allows multiples of the same species. Heck, even Nintendo enforces a species clause in their official meta, which says something.
Plus I don't think double species clause would do much of anything. The team Lcass ran into? It could easily be changed to Xtwo/Ytwo/Gengar/Gengar/Kyu-B/Kyu-W or similar and pretty much still do the same thing. Single species clause would at least force that player to make some decisions on what to take.
Plus I don't think double species clause would do much of anything. The team Lcass ran into? It could easily be changed to Xtwo/Ytwo/Gengar/Gengar/Kyu-B/Kyu-W or similar and pretty much still do the same thing. Single species clause would at least force that player to make some decisions on what to take.
(Wasn't actually cookie cutter. I had a pixilate in there)
Edit: Also tagging Verbatim in order to ask him if he would be kind enough to set up a voting thread for this, or something of the sort.
Thx for the advice, changing to volt switch and fixing the Evs for it.
Thinking about maybe trying out contrary ho-oh. STAB V-CREATE sounds scary to me, especially off base 154 attack. Would it be too risky to try charm to get a quick attack boost on a magic bouncer? I mean, it doesn't hurt me, but it could be a wasted move slot. i know I'd want leaf storm and v-create, not sure what else though.
Ho-Oh has base 130, not 154.
I personally prefer to use Blaziken-Mega as a contrary user, as it gets STAB V-Create off 160 attack and can use Superpower/Close Combat for boosting as well.
Also Charm is bad
I find this to be a terrific and growing pokemon nowadays
Ho-Oh @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Sacred Fire
- Belly Drum
- Thousand Arrows
A big middle finger to the imposter and stall. Once all -ate users and unawares are eliminated this set will kill everything. I mean this thing ohkos giratina, opposing chanseys transformed into ho-ohs, mega scizor, etc.. Everyone who needs a stall breaker most definitely needs to try this set.
Ho-Oh @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Sacred Fire
- Belly Drum
- Thousand Arrows
A big middle finger to the imposter and stall. Once all -ate users and unawares are eliminated this set will kill everything. I mean this thing ohkos giratina, opposing chanseys transformed into ho-ohs, mega scizor, etc.. Everyone who needs a stall breaker most definitely needs to try this set.
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Draco Meteor is useful against Mega-Lati@s and Giratina, all of which resist Fire/Grass/Fighting coverage. Knock Off also hits those things, and FF Aegislash who also walls the normal Contrary moves, and removes Soul Dew/Leftovers/etc.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
something i find to work well, is use parting shot, it gives momentum, along with a free attack boost if someone tries to bouncestall you out of parting shots. lol.
I'm highly against specie clause due of "no fun allowed" really.
Yeah, many mewtwos can be hard to deal with, but then again, they do share a common weakness and only two can run protean to fix that.
What it also worries me about is how it could effect some mons that have their little niches on being able to megaevolve, like having two gyaradoses. One for mega evolve one for support.
But really, I honestly don't see specie clause to be too necasery for BH, the ability clause alone broke a lot of tactics that could've been very abuseable with many same mons, many same mons that don't run proteaon will just add to same type weakness which really isn't a great thing in many cases, and protean has it's problems (see: imposter)
Ofcourse double imposter is bit annoying, but specie clause won't fix that cause "lolblissey".
and finally, specie clause would make stall even more powerful than it already is. Do we really want that?
Yeah, many mewtwos can be hard to deal with, but then again, they do share a common weakness and only two can run protean to fix that.
What it also worries me about is how it could effect some mons that have their little niches on being able to megaevolve, like having two gyaradoses. One for mega evolve one for support.
But really, I honestly don't see specie clause to be too necasery for BH, the ability clause alone broke a lot of tactics that could've been very abuseable with many same mons, many same mons that don't run proteaon will just add to same type weakness which really isn't a great thing in many cases, and protean has it's problems (see: imposter)
Ofcourse double imposter is bit annoying, but specie clause won't fix that cause "lolblissey".
and finally, specie clause would make stall even more powerful than it already is. Do we really want that?
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
i respect you alot for your amazing gimmick sets cactus...but your reasoning is pretty terrible. "all weak to one type" obviously doesn't bode well when somethings fast enough to get around that downside. a decently made mega mewtwo team can easily plow over half the teams in the metagame. ill bring back that one team i faced...my team had very strong checks for every mega mewtwo set he had. i had imposter, kings sheild...prankster dbond...mega latias(which never got knocked off), priority and everything. the only problem my team had, was that he FORCED his way through my team. every counter i threw in predicted or not, he would just steamroll through it.
its a problem, because kings sheild is a thing, which basically makes priority USELESS vs them.you just have to sit there and take the hits and hope ONE of your pokemon is strong enough to take on 3 at once, because a team isn't designed to handle 3 of the same pokemon (typically different sets, but same ridiculous power) note this team is by no means bad, and it got me to #1-4 on the ladder.
i am an offensive player. i prefer offense over stall in ALL instances. and even I want this to be taken into effect. i could easily abuse this also, and probably peak the ladder if i really felt like it. but no. because i find it too cheap and is VERY reliant on team matchups to win. not pokemon matchups might i add. and DONT tell me "you need to prepare your team for them" because i really shouldn't have to prepare my team for 3 of the same pokemon and 2 of another. not to mention these both being 190/154/130 and 150/194/140 offenses with 106/100/100 and 106/70/120 bulk respectively.
to be honest, after what klang told me, i really feel like a 2 specie clause would work well for the meta. but also with rumors i agree that species clause is something thats kinda universally one poke per team. so im fine with either or to be honest.
Scrappy Shedinja. A Very Niche set that nailed the common ghost (more specifically megagar) switch-ins to sturdy shed.
