Hi! About a year ago, kd24 and some top ADV players revamped the analyses for the generation as they were quite outdated, due to metagame developments and such. I'd like to do the same with DPP, as the metagame is not the same as it was when BW came out near the end of 2010, and the analyses 1) do not reflect this meta; for example, there is no mention of Bold Starmie, which is great at doing what bulky Starmie does while being safer against the omnipresent Scarf Tyranitar, and 2) have a lot of sets that are just not good and / or used. I've made the channel #dpp on IRC where we would discuss these revamps so if you know DPP at all (or if you just want to watch) then join. Thanks!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
DPP Analyses Revamp
- Thread starter BKC
- Start date
sup
after wcop and looking at some analyses i found some stuff i think should get changed. i joined #dpp on irc but there was no one around soo. ill write these but id like some feedback
ffs bold starmie needs its own set. call it bulky rapid spin or something but whatever its called it needs a bold nature. bold star functions way differently and fits some archetypes much better
offensive milotic could use a set. there used to be one idk what happened to it.. but milo is a much better heatran check than offensive cm cune because non ebelt/lo hp grass doesnt even 2hko and milo can recover it off or threaten ohko. not to mention milo is stronger than cune pre cm
empoleon lead needs gk AND ice beam on the set and ajet slashed behind SR, and focus sash as main item
no one uses rest on offensive shaymin sets anymore. healing wish is the way to go on both LO and scarf
no one actually uses lo roserade so revamp that set to the offensive set with 300 spe and hp fire / leaf storm / sp / tspikes and black sludge. absorbs tspikes, puts shit to sleep, acts as a psuedo cune check and spinners are scared to death of it
spiritomb needs a mention of HP ground somewhere in its sets. heatran is arguably the most popular mon in dpp and it eats tomb
lead medicham. i know it seems gimmicky but its ridiculously strong, beats lead aero + lead machamp and limits a lot of other anti leads to only getting sr (tran, meta)
sr mesprit needs a lead set. only set is offensive choice scarf what is that
spdef nidoqueen needs its own set. phys def queen and spdef queen function a lot differently
idk about everyone else but i personally think the colbur azelf set on site is pretty ass. 248 hp / 8 spatk / 252 spe with psychic / fire blast / explosion / sr is the way to go if you ask me. lives rose leaf storm / tran fire blast and metagross meteor mash while still being max spe to threaten starmie and having psychic for machamp / rade and fire blast to threaten forry etc
after wcop and looking at some analyses i found some stuff i think should get changed. i joined #dpp on irc but there was no one around soo. ill write these but id like some feedback
ffs bold starmie needs its own set. call it bulky rapid spin or something but whatever its called it needs a bold nature. bold star functions way differently and fits some archetypes much better
offensive milotic could use a set. there used to be one idk what happened to it.. but milo is a much better heatran check than offensive cm cune because non ebelt/lo hp grass doesnt even 2hko and milo can recover it off or threaten ohko. not to mention milo is stronger than cune pre cm
empoleon lead needs gk AND ice beam on the set and ajet slashed behind SR, and focus sash as main item
no one uses rest on offensive shaymin sets anymore. healing wish is the way to go on both LO and scarf
no one actually uses lo roserade so revamp that set to the offensive set with 300 spe and hp fire / leaf storm / sp / tspikes and black sludge. absorbs tspikes, puts shit to sleep, acts as a psuedo cune check and spinners are scared to death of it
spiritomb needs a mention of HP ground somewhere in its sets. heatran is arguably the most popular mon in dpp and it eats tomb
lead medicham. i know it seems gimmicky but its ridiculously strong, beats lead aero + lead machamp and limits a lot of other anti leads to only getting sr (tran, meta)
sr mesprit needs a lead set. only set is offensive choice scarf what is that
spdef nidoqueen needs its own set. phys def queen and spdef queen function a lot differently
idk about everyone else but i personally think the colbur azelf set on site is pretty ass. 248 hp / 8 spatk / 252 spe with psychic / fire blast / explosion / sr is the way to go if you ask me. lives rose leaf storm / tran fire blast and metagross meteor mash while still being max spe to threaten starmie and having psychic for machamp / rade and fire blast to threaten forry etc
Andy Snype
Mr. Music
Yes to bold starm and offensive milo.
Not convinced on GK Emp, I wouldn't be staying in on Starmie though it does provide good damage against Cune. Shuca Berry Lead Emp is still hella good and with some speed creep involved, can beat some of the Ground-based leads with two Hydros, though Sash beats offensive Zap leads.
Leech Seed should be mentioned on offensive Shaymin. Provides more utility with forcing switches and the drain. I haven't seen very many Shaymin in a while, much less LO Shaymin.
I have not seen a LO roserade in the past 4 years (BKC's "fun team" doesn't count). If I see a roserade in the midgame, it's either scarf or bulky hazards.
Lead Cham imo is outclassed by Gallade and Luke, except against fighting Champ. Cham doesn't completely beat Meta without LO, and I think Sash is honestly better for Cham because of its overall frailty, while Gallade, also dents the Pokemon august mentioned, has more reliable priority, and has better bulk.
Indifferent on the rest of the pokemon august commented on. Mesprit sounds like it could work, but I haven't tried it.
Not convinced on GK Emp, I wouldn't be staying in on Starmie though it does provide good damage against Cune. Shuca Berry Lead Emp is still hella good and with some speed creep involved, can beat some of the Ground-based leads with two Hydros, though Sash beats offensive Zap leads.
Leech Seed should be mentioned on offensive Shaymin. Provides more utility with forcing switches and the drain. I haven't seen very many Shaymin in a while, much less LO Shaymin.
I have not seen a LO roserade in the past 4 years (BKC's "fun team" doesn't count). If I see a roserade in the midgame, it's either scarf or bulky hazards.
Lead Cham imo is outclassed by Gallade and Luke, except against fighting Champ. Cham doesn't completely beat Meta without LO, and I think Sash is honestly better for Cham because of its overall frailty, while Gallade, also dents the Pokemon august mentioned, has more reliable priority, and has better bulk.
Indifferent on the rest of the pokemon august commented on. Mesprit sounds like it could work, but I haven't tried it.
bulky waters that stealth rock NEED to be able to threaten starmie, and aqua jet empo w/ sr is just so meh.. most of the stuff thats gonna quake empo in the lead spot is slower, and in the case of metagross can't ko with quake + bp even with sash
leech seed is kinda bad on offensive shaymin. you get a little hp back but healing wish gets you a whole god dam pkmn back which is awesome. most shaymin around are either protect seed (which cant run HW) or lo. scarf a lil maybe
leech seed is kinda bad on offensive shaymin. you get a little hp back but healing wish gets you a whole god dam pkmn back which is awesome. most shaymin around are either protect seed (which cant run HW) or lo. scarf a lil maybe
agree with most of this from experience. i'll omit the changes i think should be non controversial.
grass knot empoleon is pretty great because pretty much nothing on offense is switching into it, especially with a chople berry and good HP.
healing wish on shaymin is really good. i still think rest is a good move but a lot of the time shaymin doesn't have time to use it. leech seed is plain bad on LO shaymin; it has its place on the good leech+prot set, not so much on LO.
hp ground tomb is a nice auxiliary move to smack around lucario / heatran and whatnot. id definitely put it as a mention. not first slash probably, it really needs pursuit + shadow ball + wisp at the least, but it's a solid surprise move.
sr mepsrit is an interesting set, i haven't had a ton of success with it but i know that august has used it well and for that i think it deserves an analysis as a good anti lead
u should mention scarf tar support in the starmie analysis
i always dropped 44 or 56 def or something specific on protect nidoqueen lead to live two ice punch from machamp after protect, so that is worth noting.
milotic is a good lead. often trades two for one vs offense if you get the right match-up & has utility later on. planned on leading it vs iconic in SPL before the game became a dead rubber & i ended up never using the team in a tournament situation, but some punks know it. kind of unconventional i guess & i used some evs on it that let it recover on espeed mixnites or something but i can't remember exactly.
3 atk emp is better yea. problem with dropping sr is that its weaknesses overlap with most of the good srers so i never really did that. but the thing is that it is often better attacking anyway and so you never have time to set sr. thats why i ended up preferring milotic for some squads since better synergy with stuff like heatran and more utility midgame. chople is the best item in most cases though.
i'd never ever be tempted to use hp ground on spiritomb lol but up to u
medicham seems neat. what fighter attack does it use? seems like gallade's ability to use CC is kind of huge & would give it the nod over medicham in most situations for me. don't know about mesprit though. seems like it matches well vs most leads but then offers nothing outside of the lead situation.
---
if this updating business gets any traction i'd be willing to share a bunch of sets and specific evs, since i don't have plans to play again at a serious level & so there'd be no issues with set privacy & i have lots more to offer. (but would prefer to do over irc since constructing long forum posts is something only eo ut mortus enjoys) soz if some of the sentences were incoherent. noticed a couple ran on for a bit
i always dropped 44 or 56 def or something specific on protect nidoqueen lead to live two ice punch from machamp after protect, so that is worth noting.
milotic is a good lead. often trades two for one vs offense if you get the right match-up & has utility later on. planned on leading it vs iconic in SPL before the game became a dead rubber & i ended up never using the team in a tournament situation, but some punks know it. kind of unconventional i guess & i used some evs on it that let it recover on espeed mixnites or something but i can't remember exactly.
3 atk emp is better yea. problem with dropping sr is that its weaknesses overlap with most of the good srers so i never really did that. but the thing is that it is often better attacking anyway and so you never have time to set sr. thats why i ended up preferring milotic for some squads since better synergy with stuff like heatran and more utility midgame. chople is the best item in most cases though.
i'd never ever be tempted to use hp ground on spiritomb lol but up to u
medicham seems neat. what fighter attack does it use? seems like gallade's ability to use CC is kind of huge & would give it the nod over medicham in most situations for me. don't know about mesprit though. seems like it matches well vs most leads but then offers nothing outside of the lead situation.
---
if this updating business gets any traction i'd be willing to share a bunch of sets and specific evs, since i don't have plans to play again at a serious level & so there'd be no issues with set privacy & i have lots more to offer. (but would prefer to do over irc since constructing long forum posts is something only eo ut mortus enjoys) soz if some of the sentences were incoherent. noticed a couple ran on for a bit
thx for input heist.
evs on nidoqueen sound good ill figure out what ones to use
never thought of usin milo as a lead but i guess it works p well so ill definitely mention it when i write it up. noted on the empo sets ill make sure to mention
i used hp ground tomb with wish bliss support on stall because it helps eliminate heatran while avoiding a 2hko which is nice especially when stuff like passho tran with boom can be p hard for stall to deal with regardless of whether your spinner is forry or starmie
i use low kick on medicham. this is the reason why p much:
252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8+ Def Hippowdon: 195-230 (46.53 - 54.89%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8+ Def Hippowdon: 205-243 (48.92 - 57.99%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO
medicham can afford to run fake out / ice punch / zen headbutt / low kick @ sash and slam a lot of offensive leads like heatran etc and often being able to atleast trade 1 for 1 if not 2 for 1. 248/8+ is the hippo spread i almost always use but i know some ppl use more spdef. fake out also helps you have a better shot to 2hko hippo too which is cool. fake out + zen headbutt wrecks lead machamp as well which is worth noting. against leads you can't necessarily beat (spowder rose, sr zelf) you can atleast fake out to break sashes and then go out to something else
sr mesprit is nice to get the surprise ohko on lead heatrans that forego shuca, and ice beam / gk both hit hippo p hard. threatens starmie too which is nice. mesprit is also strong enough w/ ebelt gk to threaten ttar (it does 46.63 - 55.44% to 180 HP cbtar) so it can eating a pursuit from bandtar while scarftar can't quite ohko
hoping this will get some traction and lookin forward to some help
evs on nidoqueen sound good ill figure out what ones to use
never thought of usin milo as a lead but i guess it works p well so ill definitely mention it when i write it up. noted on the empo sets ill make sure to mention
i used hp ground tomb with wish bliss support on stall because it helps eliminate heatran while avoiding a 2hko which is nice especially when stuff like passho tran with boom can be p hard for stall to deal with regardless of whether your spinner is forry or starmie
i use low kick on medicham. this is the reason why p much:
252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8+ Def Hippowdon: 195-230 (46.53 - 54.89%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8+ Def Hippowdon: 205-243 (48.92 - 57.99%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO
medicham can afford to run fake out / ice punch / zen headbutt / low kick @ sash and slam a lot of offensive leads like heatran etc and often being able to atleast trade 1 for 1 if not 2 for 1. 248/8+ is the hippo spread i almost always use but i know some ppl use more spdef. fake out also helps you have a better shot to 2hko hippo too which is cool. fake out + zen headbutt wrecks lead machamp as well which is worth noting. against leads you can't necessarily beat (spowder rose, sr zelf) you can atleast fake out to break sashes and then go out to something else
sr mesprit is nice to get the surprise ohko on lead heatrans that forego shuca, and ice beam / gk both hit hippo p hard. threatens starmie too which is nice. mesprit is also strong enough w/ ebelt gk to threaten ttar (it does 46.63 - 55.44% to 180 HP cbtar) so it can eating a pursuit from bandtar while scarftar can't quite ohko
hoping this will get some traction and lookin forward to some help
here's a few sets that I think should be added / revamped
- Shuca / Occa lead Jirachi (the sr + 3 atks set)
- Bulky SD Scizor (the offensive SD probably needs a revamp too)
- NP Celebi's current moveset kinda sucks. I think STAB + 2 coverage is better than Dual STAB, it could probably use a revamp
- Gliscor's SD set should probably be changed to Sub SD with Sand Veil
- Swampert could probably use a SR + 3 Special Attacks set with max SpA
can't really think of anything else atm
- Shuca / Occa lead Jirachi (the sr + 3 atks set)
- Bulky SD Scizor (the offensive SD probably needs a revamp too)
- NP Celebi's current moveset kinda sucks. I think STAB + 2 coverage is better than Dual STAB, it could probably use a revamp
- Gliscor's SD set should probably be changed to Sub SD with Sand Veil
- Swampert could probably use a SR + 3 Special Attacks set with max SpA
can't really think of anything else atm
guess ill try and help a bit
- bulky aero: the current set on site is sub roost which is kinda balls compared to the taunt toxic set, esp with those gross mentions of ww.
- definitely in favor of a bulkier sd or sub sd revamp on gliscor.
- bulky gyara needs a mention of sub > taunt, as from what i saw it wasn't there. it could even get its own set as ev's might be different if someone has an optimal one, but that can be decided later.
- need 3 atk lead jirachi
- as mentioned bold star is one of the more common star sets.
- id like input on it, but ive used chestorest cune to p good success, so im curious if anyone else has a say on the subject if it deserves a set, mention, or nothing.
thats all i got right now, if i think of anything else later ill post.
- bulky aero: the current set on site is sub roost which is kinda balls compared to the taunt toxic set, esp with those gross mentions of ww.
- definitely in favor of a bulkier sd or sub sd revamp on gliscor.
- bulky gyara needs a mention of sub > taunt, as from what i saw it wasn't there. it could even get its own set as ev's might be different if someone has an optimal one, but that can be decided later.
- need 3 atk lead jirachi
- as mentioned bold star is one of the more common star sets.
- id like input on it, but ive used chestorest cune to p good success, so im curious if anyone else has a say on the subject if it deserves a set, mention, or nothing.
thats all i got right now, if i think of anything else later ill post.
chestorest cune is decently good, honestly 4th moveslot on cune is never rly good imo, i use hp electric if i'm a bit gyara weak or smth, otherwise i usually go roar or chestorest. i guess they can both get mentioned or slash or w/e, own set seems a bit much
clefable doesn't have an analysis i believe so someone could do that
i haven't seen anyone use technitop ever? but if someone has experience with it i guess it can stay
3 atk lead jirachi is good yeah like others said
heracross has a lot of meh sets but is missing resttalk + lo w/ 2 attacks
the protect set is missing on magnezone i believe (bad name but you know the one)
edit: oh sd hyper cutter w/ lefties gliscor is p good too, don't remove that for subsd. add both imo
clefable doesn't have an analysis i believe so someone could do that
i haven't seen anyone use technitop ever? but if someone has experience with it i guess it can stay
3 atk lead jirachi is good yeah like others said
heracross has a lot of meh sets but is missing resttalk + lo w/ 2 attacks
the protect set is missing on magnezone i believe (bad name but you know the one)
edit: oh sd hyper cutter w/ lefties gliscor is p good too, don't remove that for subsd. add both imo
Stall Breaker rachi - cm iron head tbolt psychic. Only really stopped by Heatran, you can IH blissey's for kills, you can IH any thread to the hp you need for psychic and tbolt kills. It's incredibly good, and generally beats any stall without a heatran.
Also been using cm hp ground psychic and tbolt and that's more for catching trans off guard. Faking sub/wish.
Both are worth adding, espeically the former because i think it'll rise in popularity, espeically with the increase in milotic's and random nidoqueens and even clefables in the metagame lately.
Celebi - cm hp fire gknot and recover. max speical d max hp. Great for late game sweeps, while lacking in physical attacks, it still can tank outrages from flygon quite well as well as a crunch from lucario etc. In return, a +1 cm celebi can now outstall fire blasts from heatran seeing as it does less then 50% generally. :)
I will continuously edit this as a master post, so just check it once in a while :)
Also been using cm hp ground psychic and tbolt and that's more for catching trans off guard. Faking sub/wish.
Both are worth adding, espeically the former because i think it'll rise in popularity, espeically with the increase in milotic's and random nidoqueens and even clefables in the metagame lately.
Celebi - cm hp fire gknot and recover. max speical d max hp. Great for late game sweeps, while lacking in physical attacks, it still can tank outrages from flygon quite well as well as a crunch from lucario etc. In return, a +1 cm celebi can now outstall fire blasts from heatran seeing as it does less then 50% generally. :)
I will continuously edit this as a master post, so just check it once in a while :)
Jirachi needs the most work imo, especially for the occa lead set. There is a specsrachi but no lead, what the hell.
Passho ttar needs a mention too, at least a slash in the mix set, this set is crazy underrated, and it gives a lot of momentum to team who are weak to starmie / kingdra with a bit of prediction
Passho ttar needs a mention too, at least a slash in the mix set, this set is crazy underrated, and it gives a lot of momentum to team who are weak to starmie / kingdra with a bit of prediction