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Gen 3 Updating ADV Analyses (Read Post #11)

Discussion in 'RBY / GSC / ADV' started by kd24, Mar 23, 2013.

  1. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    Personally, I think many of the ADV Analysis on site give credit to noncompetitive sets that might confuse new players and the set placement is non ideal. I wrote up notes on what's missing or what I think is needed, the point of this thread is for the better ADV players to determine the best EV spreads and how to order the sets. Let's not put this off any longer.

    First, I have a change of OU Mons being changed to BL:

    OU -> BL
    Houndoom
    Dusclops
    Medicham
    Vaporeon

    this is just from my experience from watching adv games during tour and spl. being demoted to BL doesn't mean you're not useful. rhydon, dnite, blaziken, etc are all currently BL and can work fine. the reason to move these mons is they just aren't common enough to merit placing them into OU for players to worry about. i know people will for some reason get upset that i'd suggest moving these but in current day adv, im purely talking from experience that you just don't see these often enough to merit being "OU".

    remember, OU = usage not power or utility. i'm not sure the exact usage statistics used to place these mons but in a competitive environment, there's no reason to have them placed as such.

    OU Pokemon changes: These are just my opinions, if you disagree tell me why. A lot of these changes are harsh because I think having sets that are either useless or not even used are pointless and skew the idea of what OU looks like

    celebi
    ---
    add set:
    cm
    giga drain
    hp fire
    psychic / recover

    perish song doesnt "have" to be used with umbreon - it closes out games and helps vs curselax, cm cune, cm kou, etc

    reorder sets:
    - offensive calm mind
    - perish song / defensive
    - cm baton pass
    - swords dance

    counters section is awful

    ---
    forretress
    ---
    remove rest stalk: no spinning = bad and literally no one uses this

    ---
    gengar
    ---
    mcicegar to bottom

    ---
    gyarados
    ---
    mention double-edge in the DD set
    - remove special set
    - remove choice band (no one uses any of these 2)

    ---
    heracross
    ---
    order of sets:
    - cb
    - sd 3 atks
    - subsalac

    endrev and rest stalk in other options

    ---
    jirachi
    ---
    add set:
    timid
    4 hp 252 spa 252 spe
    cm
    psychic / fire punch
    ice punch
    hp grass

    screen support and doom desire to OO

    ---
    metagross
    ---
    remove rest stalk
    remove 200 meta

    ---
    milotic
    ---
    remove light screen set

    ---
    raikou
    ---
    just slash roar/reflect
    remove rest stalk raikou

    ---
    regice
    ---
    - is psych up really the 1 option for this? seismic toss, sleep talk, and toxic all seem better
    - remove curse counter
    - remove subpunch

    ---
    salamence
    ---
    - remove hydro pump from dd
    - wish to 3rd slot
    - remove the special mences

    skarmory
    ---
    edit set:
    spikes
    ww
    toxic / rest
    protect / stalk / hp flying

    - remove choice band
    - no, nosepass does not deserve a mention in counters

    snorlax
    ---
    edit set:
    body slam / self destruct
    shadow ball
    fire blast
    earthquake

    - remove rest stalk
    - remove subpunch
    - remove counterBOOM
    - remove fire blast and hp steel on curse lax

    suicune
    ---
    - fast cm set
    - slash ice beam and roar to combine the first 2 sets
    - remove non cm cune (id argue just use milotic or pert)

    swampert
    ---
    add set:
    sub
    endeavor
    hydro pump/surf
    ice beam

    - reststalk to 2 slot
    - endeavorpert to 3 slot
    - cursepert to 4 slot
    - i know endeavorpert is "bad" to some players but the fact is, its used in OU and its had effectiveness. at the very least, an analysis lets players know to prepare for it because as it stands, new players could easily lose to it not knowing anything about it.

    tyranitar
    ---
    add set:
    pursuit
    hp grass
    rock slide
    fire blast

    dd ttar: doesnt mention hp bug...? gonna add that

    - special tar 2nd slot
    - choice band to 3rd slot
    - remove rest and subpunch, is boah relevant in current meta?

    zapdos
    ---
    - restalk first
    - baton pass 2nd
    - offensive set w/ thunder?
    - light screen 3rd or 4th
    - remove cb, mixed, metal sound, and twave

    if you want to volunteer to write up a set thatd be cool but the main goal is for good current adv players to describe the best spreads and movesets for these mons (because i have some undoubtedly wrong im sure).
  2. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Celebi => Support set should be the first set, then offensive cm
    Gyarados => I disagree with removing CB set
    Heracross => SubSalac should be 2nd, SD 3 attacks 3rd, and restalk 4th.
    Metagross => I disagree with removing both sets (especially restalk, which is very underrated)
    Milotic => Light Screen is good, at least a mention of LS would be nice
    Raikou => Dont remove restalk set, its another underrated set
    Regice => Psych up is very good
    Salamence => I see and use special mence a lot, it shouldnt be removed.
    Skarm => Switch Protect and Toxic places. Also add Taunt as an option
    Snorlax => I dont like that mixlax set you posted at all. It should have both BS and Boom. Restalk lax is very good, as well as counter boom. Fire Blast and HP steel are not a bad idea at all in curselax, especially the former.
    Suicune => Dont remove non CM suicune, its really good as a pressure phazer with spikes support.
    Tyranitar => I dont like that mixtar set at all, Crunch or IB (if you really want to hit zapdos) are usually better. Physical subpunch is quite good.
    Zapdos => Keep CB, mixed and MS sets
  3. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    celebi: k, agreed

    gyarados: is cb ever used? the set might be decent but if its not relevant or ever going to be used, we could keep things more relevant by moving to OO

    heracross: im fine with your set order, is rest stalk worth it? i've literally never seen it and cant imagine using this hera set.

    metagross: absolutely no need to keep a set for 200 gameplay. new users playing adv for tour are going to be clueless about it and it just takes up space. i dont see anyone ever use rest stalk and question its usefulness but since you supported it on irc, ill keep it in

    milotic: would mention it in OO

    raikou: ok, but the increased vulnerability to dugtrio sucks and i think cm kou just deals with things better (gengar/zapdos/etc). some more explanation of why to keep it would be helpful

    regice: are you saying it should be the first option? i don't see it used and am curious of if its the correct first option

    salamence: id keep in 1 special mence but i think wallbreaker and elemence are redundant so id be inclined to keep just 1

    skarm: taunt has a set already

    snorlax: the lax is the set rey posted, we should proly have a discussion on the better set. i never see rest stalk 2 atk lax and question if it has any use in current ou compared to other lax sets.

    suicune: cm seems like the major selling point of cune but ill take your word on this for now

    tyranitar: k, noted

    zapdos: while cb zap can be cool, is it relevant to the meta at all? seems like an easy OO addition rather than its own set

    thanks for the input
  4. Myzozoa

    Myzozoa Throw-up on the internet, or get off on TV
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    As someone trying to learn adv, I don't have suggestions for what should be changed. However, I think a lot of the ev spreads in analysis don't actually reflect what is actually used by players (cloyster analysis for example). It's very frustrating to figure this stuff out without having access to experienced players (i always ask floppy and badass for ev spreads because I don't trust the analyses). Hope this ends up happening.
  5. chaos

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    we chatted about this on IRC but I really think reflect celebi should get its own set. You can lump it in with "defensive" but I don't think that does it justice. Reflect shuts down hp bug dugtrio and is a great way to handle salamence/ttar/metagross/snorlax switchins (the latter esp. with leech seed)

    otherwise I generally agree with your suggestions, my personal pref is for bp zapdos to be first though :)
  6. Dekzeh

    Dekzeh It's the sound of the world ending.
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    I don't usually do this stuff, but eh, just trying to help :)

    Celebi: Add CM / Attack Move / Leech Seed / Recover as a set. That should probably be first, Offensive 2nd, Defensive 3rd (Perish Song be slashed in this, no point on having its own set), then CM Baton Pass and SD Baton Pass.
    I really like CM / Giga Drain / HP Fire / Baton Pass with an offensive spread, that could have a mention somewhere.

    Forretress: Remove the Sleep Talk set, I'd say remove Rest from being a slash in the first set even. Also add HP Bug, which should be the main attacking move, and have Earthquake slashed with it.
    A specially defensive EV spread is much more common then the on-site physically defensive, though both have merits, so I don't know what you'd want to do with that.

    Gengar: I'd just remove McIceGar, all it has is 'historical value'.
    Also can we do something about so many slashes in the first set? Right now it can be both Thunderbolt/Ice Punch/WoW/Taunt or Thunderbolt/Ice Punch/Giga Drain/Explosion which are completely different, the set is called status but there isnt even a mandatory status.
    Problem is Gengar can choose whatever 2 moves it wants from a huge list and be fine but the analysis should be more professional then that. Also add/mention/whatever bulkier EV spreads, max HP Gengar is really common atm.

    Gyarados: Agree with everything here, CB doesn't really have enough merits or popularity, even though it is a fine set. I would move it to OO.

    Heracross: 1st CB, 2nd Sub Salac, 3rd SD 3 attacks. Agree with MDragon on keeping restalk, it is a good set, a great check to non-fire punch Gengar, CM Bliss, and a bunch of special attackers in general. It's only held back by Dugtrio.

    Jirachi: Superachi should be added but Psychic is a must, set should be CM / Psychic / Fire Punch / HP Grass with Ice Punch slashed with Fire Punch. Agree with Doom Desire and Screen Support to OO. Also, Reflect on CM + Wish, slashed with the coverage moves.

    Metagross: Keep Restalk, it is an amazing set. Remove 200, completely irrelevant.

    Milotic: Light Screen is good, but probably OO material.

    Raikou: You can probably just have two sets here: CM-Thunderbolt-HP Ice/Grass-Substitute/Roar/Reflect. They are all very similar and basically the same but the last move helps with beating different stuff. And Restalk as the 2nd set.

    Salamence: Remove Elemence and keep the MixMence.

    Regice: Psych Up should be main option, yeah, remove Thunder Wave and Counter from here though. Also, add Restalk as a set, using Ice Beam and Seismic Toss as moves. I would agree on removing both other sets and would like to see a different set added. Ice Beam-Thunderbolt-Thunder Wave-Explosion.

    Skarmory: Fine.

    Snorlax: Snorlax should have Body Slam/Frustration/Double-Edge in addition to Boom. Not having a strong stab to for example break a Suicune sub is just awful (this should just be a redo of the now called Mixed Attacker tbh, and have it named All Out Attacker or something). The slash should be Shadow Ball/Fire Blast. Keep Restalk, keep Counterboom. Remove HP Steel but keep Fire Blast.

    Order should be: Curse Lax, All Out Attacker, Choice Band, Restalk, Mono Attacker.

    Suicune: Non CM Suicune is fine, it's an amazing spikes abuser, keep it. Agree with the rest.

    Swampert: Fine.

    Tyranitar: HP Bug main slash on DD, keep Physical Sub Punch, remove Restalk, remove Boah. Add the Pursuit set. Order should be DD, Pursuit, CB, SubPunch.

    Zapdos: Keep CB, mixed and Metal Sound.

    And some other stuff....

    Flygon: How is Screech first set? That should just be removed. The Choice Band set should be called 'All Out Attacker' and have Leftovers slashed with CB, or you can have two sets using the same exact 4 moves, dunno whats better.
    Anyway, that should be the first set (if it's split then Leftovers 4 attacks definitely 1st, then CB). Sub 2nd/3rd set depending.

    Jolteon: Should have Roar slashed with the coverage move.


    Also a bunch of EV spreads are just terrible :B
  7. HUARGH

    HUARGH

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    I agree with removing rest talk on raikou, it simply doesn't make much sense. As for Regice; you'll generally use Regice if you want to counter a sub cm'er (at least from my experience, different people use pokemon for different purposes).

    I don't like the tier changes except for Vaporeon. Houndoom is a very solid switch in to fire and enables you to use earthquake on curselax by removing gengar and the likes with pursuit. Fire isn't that common in OU, sadly, as it is generally outperformed by Ice, but Houndoom can take an IB as well and has the speed and damage to retaliate. I really feel like Houndoom belongs in OU.

    Medicham... where do I begin, I really, really, really dislike this pokemon. That's probably because I generally play stall-ish teams and swapping anything into a CB focus punch from Medicham is an unpleasant experience. Medicham is pretty hard to switch in though and doesn't have that much speed, I guess Heracross outperforms him in general (especially as Hera can absorb status + use Megahorn, it really grants him more switch-in powers).

    Dusclops? Meh. Used to be pretty good until everyone started running hp ghost on Forretress and the likes instead of hp bug. Then again, hp fire Magneton has something to say about that. I'm unsure about this.

    Aside from all this, I have a suggestion myself about a tier change of Celebi and/or Mew. I know this used to be a really heated topic back in the day but I feel like we can re-open this discussion.

    Celebi is OU whereas Mew is Uber. They have the same stats, but Mew has a vastly greater movepool. In fact, looking over the movesets of both pokemon, Mew has these 'useful' moves (and I turned a blind eye for some moves; i.e. I don't see Surf being effective on any Mew moveset but I've added it regardless):

    Counter
    Dynamic Punch
    Earthquake
    Endure
    Explosion
    Fire Blast
    Flamethrower
    Focus Punch
    Ice Beam
    Overheat
    Roar
    Rock Slide
    Seismic Toss
    Snatch
    Surf
    Sludge Bomb
    Taunt
    Thief
    Thunder Wave
    Thunderbolt

    Many 'unique' moves - some good, some of arguable usefulness - Celebi has too (sword's dance, mimic, metronome, reflect/safeguard/light screen, ...,).

    Celebi has Baton Pass, Heal Bell, Leech Seed and Perish Song over Mew - and all of these moves are absolutely amazing.

    If we're looking at the typing, Celebi has it quite rough - grass isn't that great. The passive traits are 'different'; it's hard to really say synchronize is inferior to natural cure or vice versa, but I personally find natural cure to be superior.

    Honestly, the baton pass, leech seed and heal bell is an amazing advantage. What does Mew really have? From the list above, the only moves I could see myself maybe using on an OU Mew would be:
    Counter
    Explosion
    Overheat
    Fire Blast/Flamethrower
    Ice Beam
    Roar
    Seismic Toss
    Taunt
    Thunder Wave
    .................snatch if I wanted to be gimmicky against Blisseys, or just force switches (seems like a poor option in general).

    Taunt, Thunder Wave, Roar and Explosion are the obvious 'gg'-moves here, but do these moves + the other moves really hold up against baton pass, leech seed and heal bell?

    Aside from typing (psychic > psychic/grass) and arguably an eeny-weeny bit of a better movepool (in my opinion I'd rather have Celebi's movepool, baton pass and leech seed are just too good) they seem similar - yet one is OU and the other is Uber.
  8. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    This thread isn't one for actually meaningful tiering changes, dude. Changes between BL and OU tiers don't actually mean anything aside from what is recommended or frequently used in OU, as opposed to a change between OU and Ubers that actually affects banlists. This thread is more for making ADV analyses more in line with what accurately reflects today's ADV metagame.
  9. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    i also want to note now before it comes up later that im not writing up too much. while i've rewritten or just wrote brand new sets or sections, a lot of what was written was good content already there, just out of date.

    so im not taking credit for everything im posting because much of it (like recent swampert) is taken right from the analysis and im just pasting it so we can upload as is from my threads. this is important because i dont want anyone to feel that im trying to take credit for their hard work.

    anyway:

    written:
    swampert
    gengar
    tyranitar
    flygon
    forretress

    wip:
    celebi
    regice

    lets keep up the good work guys, if you're experienced in #adv or would like to watch the experienced players of adv talk, you really should come. i've learned a lot from these guys and we really have some of the best adv minds working here to help improve these sets.

    guys who've been there and helping you guys have been phenomenal and i thank you so much for your help with these sets.
  10. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    If you guys aren't already on the list, I would PM Oglemi to add yourselves to the ADV QC Staff list. This way we can approve stuff more quickly and get these revamps on-site ASAP
  11. JabbaTheGriffin

    JabbaTheGriffin Stormblessed
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    This process is going to run very quickly. Here is what's going to happen.

    Stage 1: A revamped analysis is posted. If there's not a ton of contention within the first 24 hours, the analysis will be posted on-site. If there is, the analysis will be given an extra 24 hours, changes will be made, and then it will be posted.
    Stage 2: The analysis is on-site. At this point, any grammar checks are done.
    Completed/Stage 3: The analysis is finished. If anyone wants to add additional substance to the write-ups, they can.

    The process is meant to run these through as quickly as possible. The number one priority is making sure we have quality sets on-site. After that's done, we can tweak and tinker.
  12. HUARGH

    HUARGH

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    I don't really want to create a new topic so I'll post my question here: is there any chance of Ninjask being revamped soon? One may think that his options are kind of limited, but there are a few things that are not even mentioned in the analysis while I have seen them work marvelously + have used them myself to great effect.

    One of them is Thief on lead Ninjask - when you lead with Ninjask, the general strategy is to either substitute or baton pass on the first turn so you can see what the opponent swaps in against your Ninjask (or doesn't swap in; you can bp to an appropriate counter if the opponent stays in). To my knowledge, all common swap-ins to Ninjask carry Leftovers and the majority of them would really like to keep them (Skarmory, Suicune, ...,).

    Additionally, there isn't any sort of strategy analysis to baton passing on your first turn, many new players may think that substituting on your first turn is the only thing to do. I would like to see this revamped with some synergies thrown in (i.e. bp first turn --> opponent swaps in Skarmory, bp to Magneton or Smeargle).

    It does have a footnote about the early days of adv where Ninjask used protect as its 4th move; while I agree with this being a bad choice, it then proceeds to state that the general consensus is that ninjask is supposed to do damage when it gets the chance - something I very much so disagree with. Although Silver Wind and/or HP Flying are great moves, Thief and even things such as Toxic (against opposing sub leads) are perfectly viable alternatives.

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