I know y'all wanna wait before making Aegis changes but real talk Starmie's gotta move up. Literally the only spinblocker it couldn't beat is gone, which is why Exca was chosen over Starmie as a spinner in the first place. I'm not saying changes need to be made immediately but I honestly don't see Starmie any lower than B, possibly even B+. And before all the "starmie sux exca 4 lyfe" shit starts flying though the air, actually think of how comparable the two are outside of Rapid Spin (hint: they aren't)
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
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Okay, just because something used to be screwed by Aegi doesn't mean it's more viable now that Aegi is gone, otherwise we might as well rank Parasect -.-
also lol at thinking Togekiss, a mon that is completely and utterly outclassed in OU, is somehow better than the best wishpasser in the game... no seriously what does Togekiss even do and why is it in the same rank as Shuckle who is the best at what it does? I know it can nastypass and defog and para and wishpass but there are way better mons that can do all these things so I don't see any reason to use it over any other mon besides for Serence Grace Air Slash which is way too limited a niche to warrant even C+ IMO
I am going to give further support for
to S rank. Even before the banning of the agieslash, Azumaril was already pretty much qualified as a S rank pokemon. His newly acquired fairy typing has been an enormous blessing. While in past gens azumarils respectable 100/80/80 bulk was always that, respectable, his new fairy typing has transformed the aqua rabbit into rather the bulky tank with a slewed of new resistances. Dark, fighting, bug and a dragon immunity are a huge boon to pay for the loss of a steel resist and weakness tot he rare poison type. Keldeo, is now walled hard by azumaril, a pokemon infamous and still to some extent is, fora lack of hard counters in 5th gen. Inaddition azumaril can switch/check into other key threats such as charizard-x, garchomp, mega gyarados, tyranitar(mega) and others with greater impunity too. It can even run a successful, Av set, arguably one of it's best sets, even making it's would eb counters think twice as they fail to ko the aqua rabbit in time, before being revenged them sleeves, with Aqua jet to make up for his rather lack luster speed. Offensively, his new typing has given him a great new stab. Having hard hitting attack against fighting, dragon and dark types is a huge boon, considering that his water typing and move pool also complement fairy as an attacking type allows him to put pressure on many threats with it's new base 90 stab move, such as keldeo (who i mention again as azumaril would have little chance of hurting keldeo outside super power, in the previous gen). The buff to knock off helps azumaril, ward threats off from the aqua bunny as well as put many from coming in, either meaning azumaril has to be risked switching into or revenged. Prievous toys in huge power and Aqua jet help an otherwise weak and slow rabbit further with huge power bloistering that mammoth attack of his to a very high 436 attack with maximum investment and positive nature. While in prievous generations, the aqua bunny has been forced to run a simple " choice band set", this gens new egg move mechanics have given him access to new and scarier sets, namely belly drum. While slow azumaril has all the tools needed to be an effective belly drum user - bulk, typing and priority, with great attacking stat as a good boom. Aqua jet alone tears through threats and can even destroy weakened counters such mega-venu, coverage moves in super power allow him to pick off steels such as ferrorthron that could prevent a sweep. All these factors together all Azumaril to be a great team player that like many other S rank mons can be slapped on a team and expected to hold it's weight
The Sword in the shield is banned, and while this ban has been short so far, there is no doubt agieslash was one of the main thing's holding azumaril back. With king's shield the aqua bunny could be soley punnished for his lack of non contact moves and agieglash often being slower allowed him to punish the rabbit further with his impressive defenses and then offenses.
There are few doubts in my mind combination of the removal of a key counter, great offensive/defensive typing, lakc of safe switch ins, good bulk, versatility and being a great team player, merit azumaril the rank of S.
The Sword in the shield is banned, and while this ban has been short so far, there is no doubt agieslash was one of the main thing's holding azumaril back. With king's shield the aqua bunny could be soley punnished for his lack of non contact moves and agieglash often being slower allowed him to punish the rabbit further with his impressive defenses and then offenses.
There are few doubts in my mind combination of the removal of a key counter, great offensive/defensive typing, lakc of safe switch ins, good bulk, versatility and being a great team player, merit azumaril the rank of S.
Togekiss is not exactly outclassed by anything in OU with the exception if Clefable who is A+.
I raised Togekiss up because it was pokemon that was fucked by Aegislash thst right now it isn't anymore.
The thing with Togekiss is that's very unpredictable because of his great stats and it's a pokemon that you can customize easily. However, Clefable is even more variable.
And for the record, the pokemon that resist his STAB are Steels who can be defeated with Aura Sphere.
About, Alomomola, I agree that is one of the best Wish passer if not the best, but has a very noticeable fault, it's easy to set-up on it, and for many pokemon, not burning with Scald is like nothing but breaking a Sash/Sturdy. Personally, I think it's more C+rank but I see it on B- for Wish + Regenerator
Eh, Togekiss is okay in C+, it does have some things going for it like being a bulky Fairy-type that can provide Defog support, which other Fairies can't do, while it can spread paralysis and take advantage of the paralysis itself, which are some pretty decent niches. It has the defensive typing to do this decently as well. NastyPass Togekiss is actually kind of underrated imo and nothing can Baton Pass Nasty Plot except Togekiss, so that's a unique niche for it. The NP stallbreaker set on the analysis is actually pretty legit stuff, and Togekiss excels at breaking stall because it fires strong Air Slashes, while the high flinch chance will keep the enemy disrupted for quite a bit. Togekiss is not outclassed at all; it has different niches over Clefable and Sylveon, and NastyPass and stallbreaking are things it does pretty well. I'd say it's biggest issue is that the metagame is not that kind to it since it gets stomped on by some of the top threats in the tier. If you ask me, Togekiss is right at home with the other mons in C+; just look at things like Infernape, Hydreigon, and Magnezone, who are sitting there as well. Infernape and Hydreigon both have to deal with some competition among other Pokemon, and also have their own issues like getting walled by certain Pokemon, notably in the latter's case. I'm not sure about moving Toges up, but I think it fits in decently well with many of the Pokemon in C+.
I will refrain from posting about Starmie since I have basically no experience with it, I'll go test this thing out later and come back when I have enough playtesting experience.
I will refrain from posting about Starmie since I have basically no experience with it, I'll go test this thing out later and come back when I have enough playtesting experience.
Just a nitpick, but Celebi
Good luck testing the based god Starmie.
So with people suggesting things being moved up from unranked to D I want to seriously ask something that's been on my mind...is their a legitimate reason for D rank?
I just think the D rank is redundant and I don't want to derail the thread but I could use a solid reason to actually clarify why D rank mons are even considered. If it's for the sake of similarity amongst other viability rankings and to maintain consistency I guess I'm fine with that as well.
This can be said about a lot of things honestly and this includes stuff that isn't even in the rankings. I bolded the part that I feel has some importance to it. If there is no real niche, or the niche is just so limited that it's not even worth it, what's the point of actually ranking these mons. Let's be perfectly honest though, most of these D rank mons are garbage to warrant use on a serious team build unless you want to be original or you're trying to do something VERY specific. The way I look at is that if people want to use something outside of the S - C ranks then that's perfectly fine. I just don't see the point of ranking stuff that's not even used to a great extent or in the case of like Mantine, was only considered cause a capable player Nog had a capable team around it, and then we just theorymonned a bit and established that it's good for some reason. You're basically telling people that Mantine is a viable option based on what the rank says so go ahead and consider it, which I don't think makes much sense for some of the D rank stuff.
I just think the D rank is redundant and I don't want to derail the thread but I could use a solid reason to actually clarify why D rank mons are even considered. If it's for the sake of similarity amongst other viability rankings and to maintain consistency I guess I'm fine with that as well.
I've always seen D ranked Mons as being Pokemon with very small and specific niches. Like Mega Abamosnow has the niche of setting Hail, Mega Banette has a niche of being the best theoretical Destiny Bonder in the game (though I think Gengar pulls it off better by unpredictability alone), and Roseraid and Froslass have a small niche as suicide leads. Maybe the description should just be revamped.
But speaking of D-rank, I'm nominating
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I interpret the D-rank, Sceptile fits the description perfectly. There aren't really any Special Grass sweepers on the list, and Sceptile is decent enough to fill that role. He can run an Unburden set with Leaf Storm, Power Herb, and coverage moves, or he could just be a fast SubSeeder that hits relatively hard. It could even run a Physical set with Swords Dance, but that is where it's most outclassed. It may sound like I'm over-exaggerating his usefulness, but hey, D's not a very exclusive club. If you agree, please second this so that the mods can see, but please add on to my reasoning so that it doesn't become spam. :)
I disagree about your last point. Togekiss obviously isn't the best Pokemon in the game, but it isn't utterly outclassed. Offensively, it has Nasty Plot to carve itself a niche. With great two move or three move coverage, a boosting move, great defenses, enough speed, good power, and a life orb, it's able to do a lot late game. Its Life Orb set is really underrated, and when you combine that with its Baton Pass + Defog + Wish Heal Bell + ParaFlinch support, it's entirely earning of C+. It was C+ before Aegi, and is even better now. However, I still think C+ is correct.
Other than that, I'm not going to comment on anything, since the metagame needs time to adapt.
I nominate chesnaught
I like most of your nominations, but things like scizor may go up in popularity as well as bird spam now that aegislash is gone, so lets wait until the metagame settles before we knock zapdos down a peg.I realize this is a bit early, but I've been typing at this for a long time and don't want to lose it all, so here goes. Expect this to get updated later this week.
EDIT: Mega Gardevoir added.
Zapdos (B) -> B | Yeah, I think it's about time Zapdos falls to B Rank. Thunderburd had a niche in being able to check Aegislash and a few other Steels, but with Aegislash banned, a Pokémon that Zapdos could check quite well, it's lost another one of its uses. As Albacore pointed out, Starmie now performs vastly better with Aegi out of the tier and makes for a solid hazard remover. Despite its use as a Defogger, Zapdos suffers from having a SR weakness, which hampers it a lot in that regard. As an offensive Pokémon, Raikou and Thundurus-I do the job far better and Mega Manectric provides useful Intimidate support while having the same Fire-type coverage; it's also much stronger than defensive/Defog Zapdos and has nearly unoutspeedable Volt Switches. Zapdos has good Speed at best, at 100, making it vulnerable to being RK'd as an attacker. Unlike Thundurus-I or Raikou, it has no Special Attack-boosting options and unlike Mega Manectric, running Defog gives it 4MSS: without Heat Wave it loses to several Steel-types and without HP Ice Garchomp and Mega Charizard X shit all over it. Mega Charizard X can just set up on Zapdos all it wants, too.
All in all, I feel like Zapdos has really lost its luster in OU as of now. Move it down to B.
Raikou (B) -> B+ | I feel like Raikou has become better with the departure of Aegislash. It's a great CM attacker and has just the right coverage to plow through some major OU threats, notably Keldeo, Azumarill, Mega Charizard Y and Talonflame, Thunderbolt doing a shitton of damage to all of them (aside from AV Azumarill). Its nifty coverage move of Extrasensory makes it so that Mega Venusaur doesn't wall it to Hell and back, unlike what is the case with Mega Manectric and Zapdos. Lastly, in terms of moves, HP Ice hits pesky Dragon-types like Garchomp and Dragonite. As for other sets, Assault Vest can check a large myriad of special attackers and Raikou is one of the fastest Choice Specs users in the tier as well, giving it a definite offensive presence in OU.
Now, what holds it back? For one, a susceptibility to being RK'd. Scarf Garchomp just EQs it into oblivion, while Azumarill's Aqua Jet can seriously dent it to name a priority move. It's also set-up bait for some of the most dangerous attackers in the tier, namely Mega Tyranitar and Mega Charizard X, the former of which can use its astronomical bulk to even stomach +1 Thunderbolts and proceed to OHKO with Earthquake, the latter of which can set up a DD on any of its moves and either DClaw or Flare Blitz the shit out of it. It also lacks the precious Fire-type coverage that Mega Manectric has, as a last note. Nevertheless, Raikou is more solid than ever and deserves to rise to B+.
Mega Heracross (B+) -> A-/A | Where to begin with this monster bug? I'm not kidding when naming this thing monster bug: Mega Heracross is an absolute demolisher. Let's start with its otherworldly base 185 Attack, giving its strong STABs some real force. Its STABs are none other than good ol' Close Combat and, more notably, Skill Link Pin Missile, which not only outdamages Megahorn, but is also more accurate AND shits all over Substitutes. The only coverage move this Hercules beetle needs is Rock Blast, amplified by Skill Link as well, to have a move that's 1.25x stronger than Stone Edge, 10% more accurate and with twice as much PP. You think that was all there is to it? Fuck no, this thing is so monstrous that it gets Swords Dance to make its Attack so high that almost everything in the tier is OHKOed by any of its moves. With its 80/115/105 defenses, as well as key resistances to Grass, Fighting, Ground and especially Dark, Mega Heracross has ample of switch-in opportunities and with that galactic Attack stat, it forces many switches, giving it many chances to set up a Swords Dance and leave behind a trail of wreckage. Considering its stats and moves, Mega Heracross is one of the ultimate nightmares to and completely annihilates Stall teams.
These amazing traits aside, Mega Heracross has several flaws. Firstly, its weakness to Fairy-, Fire- and Flying-type moves limits its switch-in chances and leaves it weak to several top-tier threats if it can't outspeed these. Secondly, its base Speed of 75 does hold it back from being a total demolisher, since that leaves it quite prone to Offense teams. Fortunately, this can be fixed by using Sticky Web. All in all, Mega Heracross is an absolutely marvelous wallbreaker that's capable of easily destroying whole teams given the chance and should always be prepared for. Mega Heracross for A-/A.
Mega Gardevoir (A-) -> A/A+ | You thought Mega Heracross was a nightmare to Stall? If that's what you thought, then Mega Gardevoir would be the poltergeist haunting it! Seriously, this Pokémon has become even more amazing than it already was. 165 Special Attack is absolutely fantastic and Mega Gardevoir has just the right movepool to maliciously abuse the living fuck out of it. Its signature Pixilate Hyper Voice has 175 power counting STAB and Pixilate, but its Fairy-type and ability to bypass Substitutes is just mind-blowing. This move alone makes Mega Gardevoir ridiculously hard to switch in on, but this dancer has access to STAB Psyshock to hit physically weak Pokémon and provide additional coverage. The third main move on Mega Gardevoir is Focus Blast, which, while inaccurate, allows it to slay most of the Steel-types that tend to annoy it, including Heatran, Skarmory and Mega Mawile. Since Aegislash has left, these three moves provide perfect coverage in OU and leave room for another useful move to add: Calm Mind allows Gardevoir to raise its Special Attack to insane levels, while giving it notable Special Defense to take hits on the special spectrum; Taunt gives Mega Gardevoir the ability to completely lay waste to Stall teams; and Will-O-Wisp lets it cripple physical attackers for a teammate to set up on or catch said attackers by surprise on the switch to live a physical hit. Additionally, stat-wise, Mega Gardevoir has a wonderful Special Defense stat of 135, giving it notable special bulk that can be augmented by Calm Mind, as mentioned before. 100 Speed is a good Speed tier in OU and since several other base 100s often don't go max Speed, Mega Gardevoir can easily run a Modest nature to make its power simply absurd.
With all these fantastic advantages, Mega Gardevoir does have some notable flaws. Firstly, its measly base 65 Defense gives it no physical bulk if not using Will-O-Wisp and leaves it prone to being revenge killed; Talonflame is the worst offender, as it's immune to burn courtesy of its own Fire-type. Additionally, 100 Speed is good, but not fantastic and leaves Mega Gardevoir outsped by key OU threats, such as the Eons, Thundurus-I and Landorus-I. This issue can be fixed by using Sticky Web, however, and Mega Gardevoir is easily one of its best abusers in the OU tier. To summarize, Mega Gardevoir is a massive threat due to its general unpredictability and jaw-breaking special power. Mega Gardevoir for A/A+.
Mega Gardevoir has a shit matchup against offense cause it's physically frail and its speed, while good, isn't enough. Jukain talked about it a while back and most of his points about it still apply. I don't see it rising any further.I realize this is a bit early, but I've been typing at this for a long time and don't want to lose it all, so here goes. Expect this to get updated later this week.
EDIT: Mega Gardevoir added.
Zapdos (B) -> B | Yeah, I think it's about time Zapdos falls to B Rank. Thunderburd had a niche in being able to check Aegislash and a few other Steels, but with Aegislash banned, a Pokémon that Zapdos could check quite well, it's lost another one of its uses. As Albacore pointed out, Starmie now performs vastly better with Aegi out of the tier and makes for a solid hazard remover. Despite its use as a Defogger, Zapdos suffers from having a SR weakness, which hampers it a lot in that regard. As an offensive Pokémon, Raikou and Thundurus-I do the job far better and Mega Manectric provides useful Intimidate support while having the same Fire-type coverage; it's also much stronger than defensive/Defog Zapdos and has nearly unoutspeedable Volt Switches. Zapdos has good Speed at best, at 100, making it vulnerable to being RK'd as an attacker. Unlike Thundurus-I or Raikou, it has no Special Attack-boosting options and unlike Mega Manectric, running Defog gives it 4MSS: without Heat Wave it loses to several Steel-types and without HP Ice Garchomp and Mega Charizard X shit all over it. Mega Charizard X can just set up on Zapdos all it wants, too.
All in all, I feel like Zapdos has really lost its luster in OU as of now. Move it down to B.
Raikou (B) -> B+ | I feel like Raikou has become better with the departure of Aegislash. It's a great CM attacker and has just the right coverage to plow through some major OU threats, notably Keldeo, Azumarill, Mega Charizard Y and Talonflame, Thunderbolt doing a shitton of damage to all of them (aside from AV Azumarill). Its nifty coverage move of Extrasensory makes it so that Mega Venusaur doesn't wall it to Hell and back, unlike what is the case with Mega Manectric and Zapdos. Lastly, in terms of moves, HP Ice hits pesky Dragon-types like Garchomp and Dragonite. As for other sets, Assault Vest can check a large myriad of special attackers and Raikou is one of the fastest Choice Specs users in the tier as well, giving it a definite offensive presence in OU.
Now, what holds it back? For one, a susceptibility to being RK'd. Scarf Garchomp just EQs it into oblivion, while Azumarill's Aqua Jet can seriously dent it to name a priority move. It's also set-up bait for some of the most dangerous attackers in the tier, namely Mega Tyranitar and Mega Charizard X, the former of which can use its astronomical bulk to even stomach +1 Thunderbolts and proceed to OHKO with Earthquake, the latter of which can set up a DD on any of its moves and either DClaw or Flare Blitz the shit out of it. It also lacks the precious Fire-type coverage that Mega Manectric has, as a last note. Nevertheless, Raikou is more solid than ever and deserves to rise to B+.
Mega Heracross (B+) -> A-/A | Where to begin with this monster bug? I'm not kidding when naming this thing monster bug: Mega Heracross is an absolute demolisher. Let's start with its otherworldly base 185 Attack, giving its strong STABs some real force. Its STABs are none other than good ol' Close Combat and, more notably, Skill Link Pin Missile, which not only outdamages Megahorn, but is also more accurate AND shits all over Substitutes. The only coverage move this Hercules beetle needs is Rock Blast, amplified by Skill Link as well, to have a move that's 1.25x stronger than Stone Edge, 10% more accurate and with twice as much PP. You think that was all there is to it? Fuck no, this thing is so monstrous that it gets Swords Dance to make its Attack so high that almost everything in the tier is OHKOed by any of its moves. With its 80/115/105 defenses, as well as key resistances to Grass, Fighting, Ground and especially Dark, Mega Heracross has ample of switch-in opportunities and with that galactic Attack stat, it forces many switches, giving it many chances to set up a Swords Dance and leave behind a trail of wreckage. Considering its stats and moves, Mega Heracross is one of the ultimate nightmares to and completely annihilates Stall teams.
These amazing traits aside, Mega Heracross has several flaws. Firstly, its weakness to Fairy-, Fire- and Flying-type moves limits its switch-in chances and leaves it weak to several top-tier threats if it can't outspeed these. Secondly, its base Speed of 75 does hold it back from being a total demolisher, since that leaves it quite prone to Offense teams. Fortunately, this can be fixed by using Sticky Web. All in all, Mega Heracross is an absolutely marvelous wallbreaker that's capable of easily destroying whole teams given the chance and should always be prepared for. Mega Heracross for A-/A.
Mega Gardevoir (A-) -> A/A+ | You thought Mega Heracross was a nightmare to Stall? If that's what you thought, then Mega Gardevoir would be the poltergeist haunting it! Seriously, this Pokémon has become even more amazing than it already was. 165 Special Attack is absolutely fantastic and Mega Gardevoir has just the right movepool to maliciously abuse the living fuck out of it. Its signature Pixilate Hyper Voice has 175 power counting STAB and Pixilate, but its Fairy-type and ability to bypass Substitutes is just mind-blowing. This move alone makes Mega Gardevoir ridiculously hard to switch in on, but this dancer has access to STAB Psyshock to hit physically weak Pokémon and provide additional coverage. The third main move on Mega Gardevoir is Focus Blast, which, while inaccurate, allows it to slay most of the Steel-types that tend to annoy it, including Heatran, Skarmory and Mega Mawile. Since Aegislash has left, these three moves provide perfect coverage in OU and leave room for another useful move to add: Calm Mind allows Gardevoir to raise its Special Attack to insane levels, while giving it notable Special Defense to take hits on the special spectrum; Taunt gives Mega Gardevoir the ability to completely lay waste to Stall teams; and Will-O-Wisp lets it cripple physical attackers for a teammate to set up on or catch said attackers by surprise on the switch to live a physical hit. Additionally, stat-wise, Mega Gardevoir has a wonderful Special Defense stat of 135, giving it notable special bulk that can be augmented by Calm Mind, as mentioned before. 100 Speed is a good Speed tier in OU and since several other base 100s often don't go max Speed, Mega Gardevoir can easily run a Modest nature to make its power simply absurd.
With all these fantastic advantages, Mega Gardevoir does have some notable flaws. Firstly, its measly base 65 Defense gives it no physical bulk if not using Will-O-Wisp and leaves it prone to being revenge killed; Talonflame is the worst offender, as it's immune to burn courtesy of its own Fire-type. Additionally, 100 Speed is good, but not fantastic and leaves Mega Gardevoir outsped by key OU threats, such as the Eons, Thundurus-I and Landorus-I. This issue can be fixed by using Sticky Web, however, and Mega Gardevoir is easily one of its best abusers in the OU tier. To summarize, Mega Gardevoir is a massive threat due to its general unpredictability, jaw-breaking special power and being extremely difficult to directly switch in on. Mega Gardevoir for A/A+.
Alright, now that literally the only thing that could wall the SD set(well doublade is still here but its garbage) i see no reason to not make MEGA HERACROSS THE CRUSHER A. It is quite literally, the best stall breaker OU has to offer. The closest thing to a counter you get is Clefable, which can be bullshitted past with skill link mechanics, and needs to be in tip-top shape to take on MEGA HERACROSS THE CRUSHER without the crits in the first place. Seriously, this things power is off the goddamn charts. OHKOing Skarmory? Suicune? That shit's ridiculous. Did I mention it isn't a frail sack of shit either? 80/115/105 is VERY bulky for something so fucking strong. It has the ability to take any non-SE hit that a hyper offense team can dish out and crush whatever's on the field. Defensive teams have trouble even making a dent in this god. But still, it has weaknesses to common offensive types. But that shouldn't hold MEGA HERACROSS THE CRUSHER from A-/A. It's too fucking strong to be anything less than A-.
Keldeo and Azumarill are fine in A+ rank. Honestly I'm not seeing why they would be in the same tier as pokemon like Charizard X and Mawile.
Keldeo outside of rain isn't anywhere near S rank. Requiring rain, and Lati@s/MegaVenusaur/Amoonguss removed, and a pokemon to stop Flying spam in addition to usual revenge killers is just too much support for S rank.
Azumarill is closer to S rank but it has problems keeping it from that level. Speed is the biggest one and Aqua Jet isn't as good as Sucker Punch as far as sweeping goes. While 100/80/80 is decent, it's not "amazing", and it's not coming in with sexy Intimidate either. It's prone to being revenge killed especially without a BD boost, and can even be used as bait for Volt-Switch. No matter what set it runs, it's always going to be walled by multiple pokemon, and unlike Mega-Mawile which has no real counters, Mega Venusaur is a full-stop to every Azumarill set.
While Keldeo and Azumarrill are very good pokemon they aren't the best in the tier. They require more support than pokemon in S-rank should require.
Keldeo outside of rain isn't anywhere near S rank. Requiring rain, and Lati@s/MegaVenusaur/Amoonguss removed, and a pokemon to stop Flying spam in addition to usual revenge killers is just too much support for S rank.
Azumarill is closer to S rank but it has problems keeping it from that level. Speed is the biggest one and Aqua Jet isn't as good as Sucker Punch as far as sweeping goes. While 100/80/80 is decent, it's not "amazing", and it's not coming in with sexy Intimidate either. It's prone to being revenge killed especially without a BD boost, and can even be used as bait for Volt-Switch. No matter what set it runs, it's always going to be walled by multiple pokemon, and unlike Mega-Mawile which has no real counters, Mega Venusaur is a full-stop to every Azumarill set.
While Keldeo and Azumarrill are very good pokemon they aren't the best in the tier. They require more support than pokemon in S-rank should require.
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I support Azumarill to S.
Whenever I think OU, I think of Azumarill, the genies, zard x, and Mega maw. Azumarill has what is essentially base 150 attack, great defensive typing, and great bulk. It is also, by extension, the best bulky water in OU that can stand toe-to-toe with some of the strongest electric types in the tier w/ an assault vest, blow through offensive teams with BD, and crush walls with choice band. It is easily both meta defining and hella strong. This is why azumarill should be in the S rank, along with other metagame defining mons like the genie duo, zard x, and mega mawile.
Id advise not talking about a blacklisted Pokemon. Go back like 20 pages or so when there was a heated debate about it.
Takes on Keldeo, Landorus, and Mega Charizard Y. Not much, but apparently it's enough.
Dud your overrating it, i use it on a daily basis and it deserves A- i admit its amazing but it doesn't ohko skarmory..or suicune..In fact any legitimate wall can most definitely take a hit from megahera but it has its own issues like gliscor can stall it out for example. I agree with nominating it for A- and it can definitely take a hit and 2hko's the entire metagame (just use swords dance) but against hyper offensive it can't get far most of the time and usually dies to the 2nd poke. I agree that it should move up tho.
so it seems people are doubtful so i really wanna explain what pushes keldeo to s despite these factors
re: keldeo has multiple common checks/counters
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yes, but the reliability of these is overstated. mega venusaur hates scald burns and being worn down, sometimes you don't even need hp flying to break it which 2hkoes it. latis need roost to work consistently, and all but decently invested latias are 2hkoed by icy wind after sr damage, plus they're pursuit weak which is easy to take advantage of. azumarill is really hardly a switch-in, as after a scald burn it is heavily crippled, which is a risk it cannot often take. gyarados except resttalk hates scald burns, and if keldeo really want to get past gyara it can (hp electric) plus worst-case scenario it can't acquire any speed boosts due to icy wind. dnite has to worry about scald burns besides lum, and doesn't like taking icy wind. spdef amoonguss and slowking are pretty solid. what i'm saying is, most of keldeo's good answers, especially for offensive teams, are not too difficult to bypass even on its own, which is not taking into account that these pokemon can be pressured by other things that they're forced to check (latis are often the best keld, char y, and lando answer on the team). offensive teams must have combos of checks or they are weak to it, which should speak for itself.
another thing i think is key is matchup. keldeo has no bad matchups. as you wear at/eliminate keldeo's offensive checks, you punch massive holes in the team, and can create mindgames with your dual stabs that if played through well will remove multiple pokemon. stall teams have whatever their answer or 2 is and they get pressured to hell, while keldeo comes in with ease every time they have to send in skarm and burns their answers eventually, putting enormous amounts of pressure on the team as a whole. balanced is basically a combo of both, where keldeo puts in serious work. even compared to some s rank mons, like char x is doing nothing to exca sand and is prevented from sweeping by the best pokemon in the tier. compared to landorus-i, it has a much superior spammable stab and honestly in this meta, performs better vs stall because spdef gliscor is on every team (unless you run hp ice which has different issues vs offense because you still need knock + focus to break chansey).
keldeo pulls its weight every battle. and it's so easy to fit into teams, you really don't even need to support besides maybe pursuit, which even then is a luxury, it's resistant to sr, and it checks multiple top threats. there's a reason it was the #2 used pokemon in wcop, it's really just that good. alexwolf can you describe to me all this support keldeo needs? because i use it on over half of offensive teams and literally just slap it in. i never have to think 'oh, fuck, keldeo needs x, x, and x'.
and all i just did was describe what the specs set does to you. i haven't even said a word about scarf, or subcm, or subendeavor, or cm 3 attacks, because keldeo's specs set is really that good. however, all of these sets are pretty effective and can perform different roles/lure different things.
what pushes keldeo from 'amazing a+ mon' to 's mon' is its consistency, power, and ability to bypass its checks/counters even of its own accord simply with the pressure it lays down with its best set.
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agree with all of jirachee's noms. i want to counter mega garchomp for a-, though. i feel, compared to mega heracross, it's just not as good. it's not as efficient at breaking stall as sd cross. the best set is prolly the sub mixed one, i just feel sd is unexceptional in too many matchups (lol @ vs offense) to be worth it, especially over sd tw zard x which i just find straight up better. this can't break spdef gliscor, which sd hera (especially combined with hw support) can beat. the presence of hera in this post-aegi meta and even during the latter end of the aegi meta has made stall a challenge, but with spdef gliscor i'm never like 'oh shit it's megachomp'. to beat hera, i've found stall needs one of a few things: 2x wisp (char x + mew), mg fable (unaware is usually better and really often needed unless you have quag too which is generally inferior), or victini (which can't switch in). that's it, and a well-played hera will win. it doubles into chansey, arbitrarily guess what it will do and probably lose a mon. gliscor is brought up as an answer but it's shit, as it's ohkoed by +2 unless you run impish, and it outspeeds if it's smart enough to wait to evo as you switch it in, or is running jolly anyways to outrun slower spdef zard x/standard gliscor/jolly loom/adamant dnite/adamant gyara and things like lonely kyub, adamant exca, and jolly mamoswine preevo (just illustrating why jolly isn't actually shit). what i'm illustrating is why mega hera is almost impossible to really beat that well with stall and that it should be a-, while megachomp which is worse at this due to the popularity of spdef gliscor should be a rank below it.
despite what i disagreed before, i think it's really safe to say that mega gardevoir is literal fucking god in no aegi meta, and at least needs to move up to a-. it's a similarly incredible nuke to hera, except its defensive answers are completely non-existent. mega gardevoir 6-0's stall without mega scizor, bronzong (lol), or jirachi (lol). i only even mentioned the last two because maybe they'll be legit with aegi gone. furthermore, it pulls its weight against offense, with timid even rain, and has usable bulk really on the special side (hera's bulk is decent too) that means if it gets in on, say, thundurus, something is about to die. aegi really put that big a hold on gard, it's a lot better without it.
i also want to second zard y for a+ rank. actually have had thought about posting before so i had something written, but never actually got around to it.
re: keldeo has multiple common checks/counters
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yes, but the reliability of these is overstated. mega venusaur hates scald burns and being worn down, sometimes you don't even need hp flying to break it which 2hkoes it. latis need roost to work consistently, and all but decently invested latias are 2hkoed by icy wind after sr damage, plus they're pursuit weak which is easy to take advantage of. azumarill is really hardly a switch-in, as after a scald burn it is heavily crippled, which is a risk it cannot often take. gyarados except resttalk hates scald burns, and if keldeo really want to get past gyara it can (hp electric) plus worst-case scenario it can't acquire any speed boosts due to icy wind. dnite has to worry about scald burns besides lum, and doesn't like taking icy wind. spdef amoonguss and slowking are pretty solid. what i'm saying is, most of keldeo's good answers, especially for offensive teams, are not too difficult to bypass even on its own, which is not taking into account that these pokemon can be pressured by other things that they're forced to check (latis are often the best keld, char y, and lando answer on the team). offensive teams must have combos of checks or they are weak to it, which should speak for itself.
another thing i think is key is matchup. keldeo has no bad matchups. as you wear at/eliminate keldeo's offensive checks, you punch massive holes in the team, and can create mindgames with your dual stabs that if played through well will remove multiple pokemon. stall teams have whatever their answer or 2 is and they get pressured to hell, while keldeo comes in with ease every time they have to send in skarm and burns their answers eventually, putting enormous amounts of pressure on the team as a whole. balanced is basically a combo of both, where keldeo puts in serious work. even compared to some s rank mons, like char x is doing nothing to exca sand and is prevented from sweeping by the best pokemon in the tier. compared to landorus-i, it has a much superior spammable stab and honestly in this meta, performs better vs stall because spdef gliscor is on every team (unless you run hp ice which has different issues vs offense because you still need knock + focus to break chansey).
keldeo pulls its weight every battle. and it's so easy to fit into teams, you really don't even need to support besides maybe pursuit, which even then is a luxury, it's resistant to sr, and it checks multiple top threats. there's a reason it was the #2 used pokemon in wcop, it's really just that good. alexwolf can you describe to me all this support keldeo needs? because i use it on over half of offensive teams and literally just slap it in. i never have to think 'oh, fuck, keldeo needs x, x, and x'.
and all i just did was describe what the specs set does to you. i haven't even said a word about scarf, or subcm, or subendeavor, or cm 3 attacks, because keldeo's specs set is really that good. however, all of these sets are pretty effective and can perform different roles/lure different things.
what pushes keldeo from 'amazing a+ mon' to 's mon' is its consistency, power, and ability to bypass its checks/counters even of its own accord simply with the pressure it lays down with its best set.
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agree with all of jirachee's noms. i want to counter mega garchomp for a-, though. i feel, compared to mega heracross, it's just not as good. it's not as efficient at breaking stall as sd cross. the best set is prolly the sub mixed one, i just feel sd is unexceptional in too many matchups (lol @ vs offense) to be worth it, especially over sd tw zard x which i just find straight up better. this can't break spdef gliscor, which sd hera (especially combined with hw support) can beat. the presence of hera in this post-aegi meta and even during the latter end of the aegi meta has made stall a challenge, but with spdef gliscor i'm never like 'oh shit it's megachomp'. to beat hera, i've found stall needs one of a few things: 2x wisp (char x + mew), mg fable (unaware is usually better and really often needed unless you have quag too which is generally inferior), or victini (which can't switch in). that's it, and a well-played hera will win. it doubles into chansey, arbitrarily guess what it will do and probably lose a mon. gliscor is brought up as an answer but it's shit, as it's ohkoed by +2 unless you run impish, and it outspeeds if it's smart enough to wait to evo as you switch it in, or is running jolly anyways to outrun slower spdef zard x/standard gliscor/jolly loom/adamant dnite/adamant gyara and things like lonely kyub, adamant exca, and jolly mamoswine preevo (just illustrating why jolly isn't actually shit). what i'm illustrating is why mega hera is almost impossible to really beat that well with stall and that it should be a-, while megachomp which is worse at this due to the popularity of spdef gliscor should be a rank below it.
despite what i disagreed before, i think it's really safe to say that mega gardevoir is literal fucking god in no aegi meta, and at least needs to move up to a-. it's a similarly incredible nuke to hera, except its defensive answers are completely non-existent. mega gardevoir 6-0's stall without mega scizor, bronzong (lol), or jirachi (lol). i only even mentioned the last two because maybe they'll be legit with aegi gone. furthermore, it pulls its weight against offense, with timid even rain, and has usable bulk really on the special side (hera's bulk is decent too) that means if it gets in on, say, thundurus, something is about to die. aegi really put that big a hold on gard, it's a lot better without it.
i also want to second zard y for a+ rank. actually have had thought about posting before so i had something written, but never actually got around to it.
He is saying after a swords dance it OHKOs skarm and suicune. I actually agree though, it hits far too hard and takes hits far too well to not be in A- at this point IMO even when aegis was a thing tbh.
I assume you plan on taking out ferro and heatran (two much more common mons on stall than anything listed other than maybe scizor) with one hidden power then?
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Skarmory cant switch into a close combat because it gets 2hkoed. The fact that its commonly paired with chansey just means that you threaten it with volt switch and pivot to hera when chansey comes in. That leads to an almost guaranteed kill. Which is why i pair my hera with raikou for easy mode stallbreaking which doesnt need doubling.
I run 4 attacks heracross with bullet seed and it absolutely breaks everything. Bullet seed is great coverage in general and doesnt depend upon rock blasts accuracy for neutral hits. Suicune is 2hkoed if it doesnt get a scald burn and cant switch in otherwise. I Ev it to outspeed adamant bisharp but be slower than standard gliscor so that it can hit it super effectively with bullet seed on the roost. If you pair it with HW latias like i do then you can even make up for any derps in prediction where you end up statused. Heracrosses one sole enemy is clefable which lives two hits of any attack. But for clefable to only need a little chip damage to confirm that it can no longer switch in and im sure team support can take care of that.
Anyway what im getting at is that what youre saying is not true. Heracross can potentially break every single stall or wall in the game if built in a good team, and it lives neutral hits from any faster offensive mon (if needs to) before ohkoing them. The reason why it cant be A+ or something is because of its dependancy on specific kinds of team support. But a megacross team with complementary lower tier mons is more powerful than most teams packed with top tier threats. I used this team of mine to win five consecutive room tours and get a 46-11 record on suspect.
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