Metagame NP: Stage 3: Tunak Tunak Tun

[MikeDawg]

migzoo
The sole issue that I have with your post is your insinuation that Illusion promotes skillful play. I don't completely disagree with this notion, but I think that the concept is a bit more complex than you are implying. Basically, Zoroark creates a combination of skill and luck. To create an ideal metagame, it is vital that Smogon fosters the former and minimizes the latter.

Here's what I mean:
When looking at Illusion from the perspective of the Zoroark user, there is indeed a relatively large amount of skill involved. The reason, I assume, is obvious.

On the other end of things, the situation gets a bit more complicated. Sure, the opposing user also has to impose a bit of skillful play to avoid these bluffs, but when dealing with Zoroark, "skillful play" can only get you so far.

Here's a few replays to illustrate:
#1: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-149133362
In this replay, Zoroark is the obvious MVP. The opponent was pretty much destined to lose just from looking at Team Preview.

#2: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-149137673
This one is an example of both obnoxious 50/50s caused by Zoroark, as well as its sheer setup potential as a result of Illusion. There is pretty much no way to know if first turn Zoro is an illusion. You can guess that it isn't, because it usually isn't a lead, but that is a straight up guess based off of common plays rather than actual in-battle context. You can play it safe and switch into an Aromatisse, but you can then end up getting hazards set up all over you. With the one free turn granted by SD Zoro, I was able to take out a good part of his team (even after an intimidate drop). It could very well have been a clean sweep without Qwilfish. Near the end, the battle was decided by a Zoro-created 50/50: Sucker Punch or no Sucker Punch. If I Aqua Jet, I win. If he switches to Doublade, I lose. Both options are equally dangerous to the point where, yet again, it is a complete guess as to how to continue. Were this not HO vs HO, Zoro would have had even more opportunity to show off the potency of Illusion. Yanmega didn't even get flinch hax smh.

It's late, so no more replays.

The "skill" that Zoro creates is almost all focuses on the side of the Zoro user. As such, Zoro not only creates luck-based situations, but it also has a ridiculous advantage in terms of full-battle consistency due to the incredible pressure that it puts on the opponent even when it isn't in play. A comparable mon: Landorus in BW OU. Landorus caused plenty of U-turn 50/50s, and almost every time it was weighted in the favor of the Landorus user, not to mention how incredibly strong Landorus was even without U-turn. Zoroark causes even more 50/50s, some of which don't even involve Zoro directly, and almost every time it is heavily weighted in favor of Zoroark, because the Zoroark player has full control, while the opposing player is left to, more often than not, take a (sometimes) educated guess. If you have Hitmonlee out, the opponent can either switch to Doublade or lose a mon. If that Hitmonlee ends up being Zoroark, the opponent loses their Hitmonlee counter. For the Zoroark user, there is almost no risk to either play bar a High Jump Kick into Doublade or a Knock Off into Cobalion (and that is only in the case that it actually was a Hitmonlee!). Add that to the fact that Zoroark is already one of the outright most powerful offensive mons in the tier, and, as much as I love to use it, it would be better off banned.

tl;dr: Zoroark has full control over all high-prediction situations that it creates. It causes 50/50s even when it is not in play. The opponent's playing is frequently left up to luck. Zoroark is already an offensive monster, and with the numerous free turns granted by Illusion, it can easily pull off a full sweep.

Even though zoroark forces a ton of 50/50s, the user is also at risk of the same odds.

#1: No he isn't.
#2. Even if he was, insinuating that Zoroark creates literal coinflips is not exactly the most elegant anti-ban argument.

 

[aVocado]

I posted before that I'm not sure on Zoroark, but now I am, after laddering a bit more and seeing a lot more Zoroark than before (and used it a lot more too), and thinking about it a bit. It's too easy to disguise Zoroark as any Pokemon to lure anything and effectively cripple/kill it. It doesn't just revolve around disguising as a fire-type to lure Slowking or Ambipom (lol didnt think of anything else) to lure in Doublade/Rhyperior, it can literally disguise as anything and if it took the shape of a Pokemon you didn't expect it to, then you're fucked. Zoroark's offenses are also downright scary with 105/120/105 and a strong movepool unlike what some people have said, including a strong priority move, knock off (prolly the best move in the meta), flamethrower, grass knot, low kick, and trick. On top of that, it's versatile as fuck and able to pull off Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Choice Specs, and Mixed sets which is a total of 4, hell maybe even Scarf which I saw a few times but never really tested it. Of course, Zoroark has its counters and isn't as broken as some people claim it is although I still think it needs to go.

The most effective set imo is Swords Dance. Strong, fast Knock Off with strong priority and good coverage in the form of Low Kick which can hit Rhyperior and Registeel hard, OHKOing them after very little prior damage. It also isn't revenge killed by Hitmonlee who is a staple on offense to revenge kill some faster sweepers because +2 Sucker Punch OHKOes it.

How is Illusion even remotely skill-based? I don't even understand how people arrive at this conclusion, what a farce. Let's take a very common and realistic scenario and put this so-called "skill" rhetoric to the test. Let's say you have a Zoroark and Delphox and the opposing team (a stall team for instance) has a Slowking, where Slowking is their main means of dealing with it. You lead with Zoroark disguised as Delphox and the opponent has one of two things out turn 1 A) the slowking or B) something Delphox can force out. If a, there's no reason for them to switch out unless they guess the Zoroark. If situation B, they're put in a very tough position where they again have to guess whether or not it's Zoroark. If they guess right, they fall under no immediate penalty, if they guess wrong, then Delphox steamrolls their team. Can someone please enlighten me on how something like this could possibly be affiliated with skill and how doing something such as this is in any way deemed onerous? As newbreed said before, dealing with Zoroark is a guessing game, and such a thing is the literal antithesis of "desirable" in a competitive environment.

Just saying, but Zoroark disguising as Moltres is easily blown because the message that comes with Pressure doesn't come up.

 

[phantom]

Just saying, but Zoroark disguising as Moltres is easily blown because the message that comes with Pressure doesn't come up.

That's why I edited it to Delphox??? There wasn't even a mention of Moltres when you even quoted that post, so I don't know what you're trying to pull here.

 

[aVocado]

That's why I edited it to Delphox??? There wasn't even a mention of Moltres when you even quoted that post, so I don't know what you're trying to pull here.

ah, it was moltres when I read it once you posted it @_@ my bad

 

[-Tsunami-]

Well, now that I have reqs, I suppose it's time to share my thoughts on these two suspects. Let's start with Yanmega, since i was more unsure of how broken it was in the metagame when compared to Zoroark. I'd have to say that Yanmega is just a bit too much for the metagame. There's hardly anything in the tier that can really handle Yanmega's attacks; it's best counter, Registeel, can be trapped by Dugtrio and really has no reliable recovery to ensure it can be there to defeat Yanmga for the duration of the match. The Speed Boost set is a pain for offense; unlike Sharpedo, Yanmega can actually take a hit, which it allows it to switch in much more easily than Sharpedo could ever hope to do. Also, it 4x resists one of the best priority moves in the tier in Mach Punch, and only takes about 65% on average from Naughty Life Orb Sucker Punch from Zoroark, which is basically the same amount of damage Sharpedo takes despite the former not even resisting the move. This bulk just adds to the effeciveness of this set, as Air Slash and Bug Buzz can deal major damage to most offensive threats in the tier, with Shadow Ball being able to decimate Doublade. Giga Drain can also be run over Shadow Ball, and can make Yanmega more problematic in some aspects by allowing it to recover its HP. Sure its 4x weak to Stealth Rock, but Defog / Rapid Spin isn't excruciatingly difficult to pull off in this tier; not to mention, 51% is sometimes all Yanmega needs to win anyway. Yanmega is even more of a threat in this metagame due to the prevalence of Nasty Plot + Baton Pass Togetic, which is a perfet teammate for Yanmega, Defogging away Stealth Rock and Baton Passing it the boosts it needs to completely wipe out teams. This isn't even accounting for the Specs Tinted Lense set, which is a behemoth in its own right, being able to topple walls with insane power; that set is extremely difficult to switch into, unless one is running something obsure like Soundproof Exploud, which is an instance of a Pokemon running a "worse" ability to take down the broken monster that is Yanmega. Overall, I feel that Yanmega is just a bit too much for the tier, with its solid bulk for a sweeper, extreme power, versatility, and access to Speed Boost and solid coverage moves.

Now, unlike Yanmega which I was more unsure aboutcoming into this suspect test, I was fully convinced Zoroark was broken after playinga ridiculous amount of games for RUgged Mountain and watching many more. Zoroark literally just forces the opposition to guess on a plethora of instances, and that "guess" is usually a lot more low risk / high reward for the Zoroark user than for the opponent unlucky enough to be staring at the demon fox. Sometimes, you're simply forced to assume that the Pokemon is Zoroark, because if it is and you switch out while the opponent sets up, your team will be swept. Here is a good example of that:
[22:24:43] <&Nas> i just toxic'd this doublade with regi becasue if it was sd zoro it would have swept me

Zoroark can disguise as certain Pokemon and easily eliminate that Pokemon's checks and counters, which is made easier by the great movepool it has, consisting of moves such as Pursuit, Flamethrower, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Grass Knot, Extrasensory, and Swords Dance, to name a few. Zoroark itself without Illusion is already a massive threat in the metagame, but Illusion is what truly pushes it over the top. There are hardly any Pokemon that can even fully counter Zoroark, and pretty much all of them are set up fodder for Doublade, a very good teammate for Zoroark. When I was laddering, I was using a lead Omastar, and sometimes faced teams where Spikes affected the team more than Stealth Rock did. So obviously, the choice to make would be to use Spikes. However, the opponent also had a Zoroark, which left me with the choice of whether to use Spikes or use Stealth Rock to limit Zoroark's disguising capabilities and preventing it from effectively disguising as something such as Doublade. It is extremely easy for Zoroark to disguise as other Pokemon and literally force the opponent to guess if the monster they are facing is a Zoroark or not; this is very unhealthy for the metagame and is it depletes the skill required to win. Defog is prevalent to remove hazards, and even if the Zoroark user has hazards on their side of the field, it's not like that's stopping Zoroark from disguising as something like a Jolteon. All in all, Zoroark is extremely devastating offensively in its own right, and its vast movepool when combined with Illusion literally promotes guessing, which lessens the skill needed to survive in the metagame, which is why I believe that Zoroark needs to be expelled from the tier.

 

[ASmogonNameForSmogon]

I saw this discussion on the RU lobby in PS and thought it should be here.

aoemica: Is there anything in the entire tier
aoemica: That can survive a + 2 specs tinted lens bug buzz?
better bleve it: registeel
StinsonRU: registeel
StinsonRU: actually there are many things
StinsonRU: i believe
better bleve it: yea but besides registeel they are all garbage
aoemica: +2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 240-284 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
aoemica: smh
StinsonRU: +2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 128-152 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
aoemica: +2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 104-122 (33.1 - 38.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
aoemica: I've seen so many NP togetics lately
aoemica: SD Zoroark pls
aoemica: +2 252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 331-391 (105.4 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So it seems Yanmega is a bit too stronk. Also if Yanmega stays, Zoroark stays too, he looks like a solid counter

 

[atomicllamas]

I saw this discussion on the RU lobby in PS and thought it should be here.

aoemica: Is there anything in the entire tier
aoemica: That can survive a + 2 specs tinted lens bug buzz?
better bleve it: registeel
StinsonRU: registeel
StinsonRU: actually there are many things
StinsonRU: i believe
better bleve it: yea but besides registeel they are all garbage
aoemica: +2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 240-284 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
aoemica: smh
StinsonRU: +2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 128-152 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
aoemica: +2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 104-122 (33.1 - 38.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
aoemica: I've seen so many NP togetics lately
aoemica: SD Zoroark pls
aoemica: +2 252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 331-391 (105.4 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So it seems Yanmega is a bit too stronk. Also if Yanmega stays, Zoroark stays too, he looks like a solid counter

Zoroark isn't a counter because it can't switch in, it isn't even a check to the speed boost version unless it has taken stealth rock damage. There is also the fact that if yanmega is your best switch into a plus two Zoro you probably already lost e_e.

 

[Mew2]

I saw this discussion on the RU lobby in PS and thought it should be here.

aoemica: Is there anything in the entire tier
aoemica: That can survive a + 2 specs tinted lens bug buzz?
better bleve it: registeel
StinsonRU: registeel
StinsonRU: actually there are many things
StinsonRU: i believe
better bleve it: yea but besides registeel they are all garbage
aoemica: +2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 240-284 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
aoemica: smh
StinsonRU: +2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 128-152 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
aoemica: +2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 104-122 (33.1 - 38.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
aoemica: I've seen so many NP togetics lately
aoemica: SD Zoroark pls
aoemica: +2 252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 331-391 (105.4 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So it seems Yanmega is a bit too stronk. Also if Yanmega stays, Zoroark stays too, he looks like a solid counter

Aside from what atomicllamas said, the NP Togetics usually pass to Speed Boost LO Yanmegas so your calcs should look like this:

• +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 104-123 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- 98.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
  
• +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 187-222 (52.8 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 152-179 (48.4 - 57%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO

In other news:

| 51 | Hitmonchan | 4.217% |

 

[PowerStyler]

I saw this discussion on the RU lobby in PS and thought it should be here.

aoemica: Is there anything in the entire tier
aoemica: That can survive a + 2 specs tinted lens bug buzz?
better bleve it: registeel
StinsonRU: registeel
StinsonRU: actually there are many things
StinsonRU: i believe
better bleve it: yea but besides registeel they are all garbage
aoemica: +2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 240-284 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
aoemica: smh
StinsonRU: +2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 128-152 (36.1 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
aoemica: +2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 104-122 (33.1 - 38.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
aoemica: I've seen so many NP togetics lately
aoemica: SD Zoroark pls
aoemica: +2 252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 331-391 (105.4 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So it seems Yanmega is a bit too stronk. Also if Yanmega stays, Zoroark stays too, he looks like a solid counter

so togepass is broken, we all knew that already

problem is getting the +2 pass, since defensive teams can get a free turn to stop the pass with a phazing move or just taunt togetic before it passes to yanmega because it isn't outspeeding anything relevant anytime soon.
sure offensive teams might not be packing a phazer but they should have at least something to outspeed and ko yanmega (which isn't hard since your calcs are all 252+ SpA and base 95 modest isn't exactly a hard speed benchmark to hit)

so while +2 specs tinted lens modest yanmega has absurd damage output, it runs into too many problems to justify over speed boost yanmega.

 

[aVocado]

sure offensive teams might not be packing a phazer but they should have at least something to outspeed and ko yanmega (which isn't hard since your calcs are all 252+ SpA and base 95 modest isn't exactly a hard speed benchmark to hit)

You are forgetting Speed Boost, which is what's normally used for nastypass. +2 modest LO hits ridiculously hard.

 

[PowerStyler]

You are forgetting Speed Boost, which is what's normally used for nastypass. +2 modest LO hits ridiculously hard.

...it runs into too many problems to justify over speed boost yanmega.

I didn't forget speed boost, I was responding to the assertion that +2 Specs Tinted Lens Modest Yanmega was relevant in the current meta.

 

[Aerow]

So here are my thoughts for Zoroark:

Zoroark is an excellent offensive threat, packing fantastic offenses with base 105 Attack and base 120 Special Attack, as well as a great base 105 Speed which lets Zoroark outspeed many threats. Zoroark is also extremely versatile, capable of running a TON of different sets such as Mixed Attacker, Special Attacker, Swords Dance, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, and Nasty Plot; there are even variations within the sets. Zoroark also has a great movepool, with lots of options for physical, special and mixed sets, having great Dark-type STAB moves in Dark Pulse, Sucker Punch, and Knock Off, as well as great coverage options such as Grass Knot to hit Pokemon such as Rhyperior extremely hard, Flamethrower to roast Steel- and Bug-types, Hidden Power Ice to deal with Gligar, Extrasensory for Fighting-types, and even Focus Blast and Low Kick. This, in combination with great mixed offenses and great Speed, as well as the ability to run a lot of different sets makes Zoroark very unpredictable.

The biggest problem with Zoroark in my opinion however, is its ability Illusion. This means Zoroark can easily disguise itself as a teammate, and therefore create 50/50s. Just Zoroark being on the opposing team means you need to consider if the Pokemon you see is what you think.

The Mixed Attacker and Swords Dance sets are the most threatening in my opinion. The mixed attacker set has great coverage, and the ability to hit a solid chunk of the meta extremely hard. The Swords Dance set, on the other hand, is arguably even scarier, because Zoroark can easily set up Swords Dance thanks to its ability Illusion, which forces a lot of switches. If the opponent gets Zoroark to +2, it can often mean game for a more offensive team due to how hard Sucker Punch hits.

I don't feel Zoroark is extremely broken like some people have said, but it is indeed very strong, unpredictable and has a great ability in Illusion, rendering it a bit too potent for RU.

 

[HeIIraiser]

I've played a bit of RU (got #1 on suspect ladder), so gonna share my thoughts:

Yanmega
Yanmega is ridiculously strong. As many people said, it has two sets that do two entirely different roles: tinted lens is wall breaker and speed boost is a late game cleaner. The switch ins to yanmega are very few and most of them are slashed in the switch. The speed boost set destroys offensive teams, where offensive teams have to use Sucker Punches or Fletchinder to stand a chance to beat it. Tinted lens pretty much destroys anything slower than it, which means you can beat stall without problems. Stealth rock is not enough to keep yanmega in the tier, and RU also has some great spinners and defoggers (gligar, hitmonlee, hitmontop) that fit well with yanmega synergy wise. So imo, ban yanmega.

Zoroark
Zoroark is also very powerfull, attacking hard with many strong special and physical offensive moves, and Sucker Punch / Knock Off creates many 50/50s in battles. Even if you get fast stealth rock to distinguish what zoroark is, zoroark can mislead you and kill your SR user (like pretend to be Arbok and Hidden Power Ice a Gligar as I did many times in the suspect ladder). Zoroark is the most versatile Pokemon in RU, being perfectly capable of running many movesets, like the specially based mixed, Swords Dance, Nasty Plot and Choice Specs. It also has access to moves such as Extrasensory for Fighting types, Hidden Power Ice for Gligar and Grass Knot for Rhyperior. It also hits a great speed tier outpacing the majority of RU even without +nature speed. It also offers great team support for a large variety of strong attackers in the current RU metagame, making it far too strong for the tier to handle. So imo, ban zoroark too.

 

[Sweep]

This suspect test was my first experience in XY RU, so others have probably made their arguments about Zoroark more eloquently than I will. But Zoroark is a fast, powerful Pokemon with a great offensive typing, movepool, and most importantly Illusion. In a very offensively-inclined metagame, Illusion is really dangerous considering the plethora of cool partners one can use with Zoro. Life Orb Durant and Tauros are mons I enjoyed using with it, for example. Now suppose Zoroark is paired with Durant. Both take the same amount of damage from hazards (barring Toxic Spikes!) so early-mid game before either takes direct damage, it'll be impossible to tell whether the Durant in front of your opponent is Durant or Zoroark. Some of the best switchins into Zoro (Virizion, Aromatisse, Whimsicott sorta) are badly threatened by Durant, and many of Durant's checks (Doublade, Moltres, etc) have a horrible time switching into Zoroark. It's a guessing game that involves limited amounts of skill.

Knock Off is really what pushes Zoroark over the line for me. It ensures the 50/50's Zoroark forces will always favor its user, because a check will lose its valuable item while still taking a chunk of damage on the switch. Had Knock Off not been buffed, this wouldn't be as clear-cut (though I still might push for it to be banned) but with Knock Off being as silly as it is, I don't feel it is healthy in RU. Will test Yanmega out this weekend, as I don't have an informed opinion at the moment.

 

[barton]

zoroark is incredible. top mons have counters removed hilariously easily. zoroark's supportive capabilities are what makes it so good for me. it's so easy to facilitate a delphox sweep when your opponent's slowking has been OHKO'd by Knock Off, or a braviary sweep when your opponent's doublade switched into a Dark Pulse. it takes very little skill to use. zoroark basically forces your opponent to guess, as many others have said. there's really not much you can do. should you guess wrong, it's very difficult to recover. add to this the fact that it can also sweep itself by abusing Illusion to grab a free SD (or NP), and clean your team because it has 105/120/105 attacking stats, and it's unpredictability and versatility, and zoroark just becomes too much.

yanmega is, in my opinion, less broken, but still very centralizing. the Speed Boost set is extremely hard to revenge kill and a fantastic mon to clean through weakened teams. however, because you're forced to run Protect, you miss out on running either Giga Drain or Shadow Ball, and can only hit one of either Rhyperior or doublade. you can also run dugtrio to just trap registeel and remove yanmega's best counter, or at the very least weaken it significantly. there's also the Tinted Lens set to consider, which whilst much easier to revenge, is the hardest mon to switch in to in the tier. you're
pretty much limited to registeel and togetic. that's centralizing.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

Just thought I'd might as well voice my opinion about Zoroark and Yanmega.

I'll start with Yanmega; that thing is busted. I really don't like the fact that I'm forced to run a Registeel on my stall teams just so that Specs Tinted Lens doesn't tear me a new one, and when Dugtrio is thrown into the mix, it's makes it sooo much harder to play against it. It seems pretty unhealthy to me that 2 Pokemon that tear apart an entire strategy like that + they still have 4 other Pokemon to wear you down completely.

With the Speed Boost set, that can tear apart offensive teams, so when you are faced against a Yanmega it's a 50/50 as to whether it's gonna break you. Because of that, and the fact that RU cannot build around both sets imo, it should be banned.


With Zoroark, you can disguise it as any other SD/NP/U-turn/knock off user and bluff your way to an easy KO. I've experimented with Zoroark and using it in conjunction with Clawitzer is pretty effective; you can catch so many things off guard like Slowking and Delphox to either KO them with Knock Off / Sucker Punch and then LO Clawitzer is free to just wreck stuff. Another thing with Zoroark, is that you don't know what set it is as it can a wide movepool it can utilise and with it carrying a base 105 speed it can outspeed most of the tier unboosted.

So my vote is to BAN BOTH Yanmega and Zoroark

 

[termi]

I still don't really know about Zoroark, what I feel like is that the Illusion argument many people come up with is flawed because I honestly barely ever get surprised by Zoroark nowadays, if I'm uncertain as to whether the mon that has just switched in is Zoroark or not I tend to find a middle ground mon that can't necessarily counter either but can tank a hit and pivot out (ie. Alomomola), but maybe that's just because I play stall a lot and because my opponents usually aren't competent enough to make the ruse work to its fullest extent. I think I am kind of leaning towards the ban side simply because it is already extremely versatile and powerful without Illusion, deciding what set the opposing Zoroark is running is a mindgame on its own, let alone when your opponent uses Illusion successfully. Also, Zoroark is way too easy to slap on a team and make it better. I don't think it's extremely broken or anything and I still think most of the scenarios sketched where Illusion makes your opponent lose are a little bit too perfectionized, but it is so strong and versatile that that alone can be ground for banning. I might change my mind though.

Yanmega, on the other hand, is broken as fucking shit there is no question. I mean seriously, people complain about Zoroark causing 50/50s but Yanmega is more of a problem in that regard imo. You have to decide whether you are facing Tinted Lens or Speed Boost in order to come up with an appropriate switchin and if it's Speed Boost you still have to decide what coverage move it's running. Bar Registeel (which I don't fancy using because biggest setup bait of the year, worn down easy af and easily trapped and killed by Dugtrio) there is nothing that can claim to be a Yanmega counter thanks to the hilariously dumb ability Tinted Lens, which allows it to basically just click a move and watch shit die (and then they say using Zoroark doesn't require skill...), whereas Speed Boost means offensive teams are fucked by it, for unless you run a strong Sucker Punch user and you have rocks on the field you basically cannot revenge kill it. What also bothers me is how it doesn't even need SR gone per se, if your opponent doesn't happen to be running Zoroark all you need is a free switchin and you'll still clean the opposing team up, no questions asked. Overall just a dumb af mon, because whereas it needs team support, it does not need a user with a brain in order to allow it to do its job.

 

[SlottedPig]

It's interesting that some people consider Yanmega broken but not Zoroark, and others that consider Zoroark broken but not Yanmega, as well as different groups that consider both broken but one moreso than the other. Take it as a sign of how diverse the meta is :]

In any case, I am fairly sure that Zoroark is broken -- in my opinion, its Swords Dance set is imbalanced by itself. At +2, every single offensive team is at risk of being swept by Zoroark; even Rhyperior is nearly OHKOd by +2 Low Kick, and very few offensive Pokemon can stomach either of its STAB moves at +2. Defensive teams (both stall and balanced) also take a gamble with it since they have a much harder time breaking the Illusion and have only a handful of teammates who can take it on -- Alomomola, Aromatisse, and Togetic, all of whom are fairly easy to take advantage of even without abusing Illusion, and the latter two are extremely easy to wear down once they lose their item. Early game, when Illusion is maintained, defensive teams are forced into a guessing game where the wrong prediction will often end up allowing Zoroark to break through a win condition's counters (or even vice versa, as Zoroark is extremely strong on its own).

Swords Dance Zoroark carries the role of sweeper, wallbreaker, and (so long as Illusion is intact) lure all in one. Unlike most frail and fast Pokemon who fit similar roles, and even if Zoroark has taken damage beforehand (which often permanently breaks the Illusion), Zoroark also has a lot of mid-game utility simply due to STAB Knock Off. Zoroark's only real flaws are its frailty and the fact that using early/mid-game Knock Off can weaken its sweeping prospects late game. Obviously, they don't come close to balancing it.

Again, this was only taking into account Swords Dance Zoroark. That's not to say mixed, Specs, or Nasty Plot are bad sets, and they are all more than viable, but even if Zoroark was only capable of running one set I would still vote to ban it.

While Yanmega is also pretty toxic to the tier in my opinion, it's banworthy for an entirely different reason. Yanmega requires quite a bit of support, but is the best wallbreaker in the tier and can also function as an end-game sweeper against offense that is much more resilient to priority than Sharpedo. I think Yanmega is the most centralizing Pokemon in the tier -- it's a large part of the reason why Registeel is good and why SpD Aromatisse and Golbat are usable over physically defensive -- but still less banworthy than Zoroark, who isn't centralizing at all (the successful Molk stall team doesn't have any Dark resist or actually anything that can switch into its Specs set). Whereas Yanmega does have some counterplay (it can be walled and is generally rather useless vs Registeel teams without Dugtrio support) Zoroark has absolutely none (it can get past all of its checks easily and generally requires you to outplay the Zoroark user to beat it) thanks to Illusion.

tl;dr: Zoroark is broken because it's completely overpowered. Yanmega is not as overpowered, but warps the tier heavily. I'm voting to ban both.

 

[RufflesPro]

The most annoying shit ever is disguising Zoroark as Hitmonlee, bait in doublade, and 2HKO it w/ Knock off.

It's also really annoying because you want to block a spin because you're a spike stacking team, not only that but when zoroark uses knock off you can be still fooled it's hitmonlee.

Oh and if you have GK on Zoroark that means you can bait in Alomomola too.

I got reqs, I'm voting ban for both.

P.S: Everyone on the ladder is using fucking nastypass

 

[Ares]

Thoughts on Yanmega:
I've been using Yanmega since I started playing RU and I can say from experience that the tinted lens choice specs set is broken as hell. There are only 3 mons that really want to switch in on it and they are Togetic, Registeel, and Golbat. All other mons either get 2HKO'd or are 2HKO'd with rocks up. I have punched holes in teams just by leading with it, and by the time they have finally taken Yanmega down its 5-3 and the rest is an easy win. The other set which is the speed boost set is also incredibly powerful and can sweep teams late game. It resists the most common priority in the form of Mach Punch and is incredibly hard to revenge kill because with a +2 boost it can outspeed all relevant scarfed pokemon. (Also on a side note it always seems to flinch my Amoonguss when I'm trying to put it to sleep). Both sets make up for each others flaws, the speed boost set makes up lack of power for speed and the tinted lens set allows it to get incredible power with decent speed. I think that Yanmega needs to get the boot out of RU.

Zoroark on the other hand I'm not sold on banning. I believe it is a very good pokemon in the tier, definitely S rank, but I do not think it is broken. It does have a variety of sets that can hit a lot of the tier but it also has some pretty good stops like aromatisse. While I've been laddering I've either seen people pull off the Illusion incredibly well or very poorly. And tbh most of the time it was fairly obvious that it was a zoro. I think that the illusion takes a bit more skill to pull off then some people have been implying. I think if i had to vote right now I would probably abstain on Zoro.

 

[Jaiho]

I just got reqs, so I'll share what I think about these two suspects

Yanmega is easily one of the best 'mons in the tier, and imo the more broken of the two suspects. It has two distinct sets that allow Yanmega to either destroy stall or offense, while still heavily damaging the other. Speed Boost sets completely rape offense, as its nigh unrevengable after a couple boosts. Priority isn't all that helpful either, since Yanmega is stupidly bulky for such a powerful and strong 'mon. Shadow Sneaks, Aqua Jets, and Quick Attacks can't 2HKO, and of course, the most popular priority, Mach Punch, does jack shit. Only Acrobatics from Fletch (which has a chance to not OHKO iirc) and Sucker Punch from the likes of Zoroark or Shiftry (which can be played around a bit w/ protect) are the only ways to really revenge kill. Often times an offensive team has to sack multiple things just to get enough Life Orb recoil to KO. Speed Boost sets are also amazing NastyPass recipients, which is basically gg for a lot of teams. Tinted lens Yanmega is THE wallbreaker of the tier, completely destroying stall teams that lack Registeel, Togetic, or SpDef Aroma. Simply stacking something like Dugtrio and/or Doublade means those 'mons have to be wary of switching in, as they could be set up on or trapped. Stealth rock does not in any way keep Yanmega in check, as often times it needs only needs 51% to sweep. Ru is also a tier where its incredibly easy to remove hazards, with great spinners and defoggers alike, notably Hitmonlee, who synergizes incredibly well with Yanmega. Overall, all I have to say is BANMEGA


I'm not going to lie, going into this test I thought Zoroark was handleable and didnt deserve to be banned. However, after laddering, I completely changed my opinion. Zoroark is already an incredible attacker, while being one of, if not the most versatiles 'mons in the whole tier. SD, Physical Mixed, Special Mixed, Choice Specs, Nasty Plot, there is just so many potential sets, and its not obvious at Team Preview which one it is. Zoroark can also tailor its moveset for specific threats, with moves like grass knot, HP ice, and extrasensory. However, worse than Zoro's attacking prowess is Illusion. Being able to hide as another 'mon is utterly ridiculous, especially w/ the attacking prowess Zoro has. A well played Zoroark can end a game simply by forcing the opponent to switch in a counter to the 'mon Zoroark is pretending to be, which Zoroark can take advantage of. One part of Illusion the anti-ban side hasnt considered is the true nature of the "50-50s". Yes, for the player facing Zoroark, its a 50-50. But for the Zoroark user, its a 100-0. They see all the cards on the table, whether Zoroark is actually on the field or not. From turn 1, a smart player facing a team with Zoroark has to guess what 'mon is actually on the field, regardless of what the Zoroark user actually does. "Is it safe to Taunt the lead Omastar, or is Zoroark about to hit me with a Knock Off?" Zoroark's opponent has to ask themselves questions like this every turn until the illusion is broken. This is an uncompetitive disadvantage to those that dont use Zoroark right from Team Preview. To me this pushes Zoroark way past the point of broken, so Ban the fox too

 

[Xylen]

Just started RU today, Its been fun!

Yanmega is really annoying to deal with, Basically anything Yanmega cant kill (Mainly Bulky Steel like registeel), Hitmonlee and its HJK can. Combined with Speed boost, its basically unable to deal with except priority. I havent been seeing any problems with Zoroark, but Illusion creates a... well Illusion. Its a 50-50 whether its the real mon or Zoroark, and you'll never know until it attacks. 1900 coil so im almost there to say Bye bye yanmega

 

[Ares]

After struggling through the first 20 games or so with a team I have been using since June, I decided that it was time for a change. So when looking for teams I wanted to try out I hadnt really played to much with Zoro and I hadnt really played to much with the speed boost variant of Yanmega. So I asked Arikado for a team and he gave me one from Aerow , so thank you to both of you for getting me the team. After playing with Nasty pass I can say that at +2 if not +4 Yanmega just tears through teams and with HP Fire for Registeel there is nothing that wants to take a hit and once again I think Yanmega has to go. Both sets are ridiculously good and can tear through teams. While using Zoroark I think I could of played the Illusion a little bit better but Knock Off destroys a lot of things. In conjunction with Sucker Punch I can can see why it is up for Suspect, but I still do not believe that it is broken. Zoro's set can't cover everything and while it can usually take out a mon or two if your opponent is very smart and figures out who Zoro is it can not do as much work as before. All it really takes is one protect or a good switch in to reveal Zoro and then its fairly obvious. People are saying Illusion is what puts Zoroark over the top but I think it takes some good skill to pull it off. Still at the point where I am going to abstain on the Zoro vote.

 

[Molk]

The most annoying shit ever is disguising Zoroark as Hitmonlee, bait in doublade, and 2HKO it w/ Knock off.

It's also really annoying because you want to block a spin because you're a spike stacking team, not only that but when zoroark uses knock off you can be still fooled it's hitmonlee.

Oh and if you have GK on Zoroark that means you can bait in Alomomola too.

I got reqs, I'm voting ban for both.

P.S: Everyone on the ladder is using fucking nastypass

Gonna reply to this from a 100% neutral standpoint, just using like objective facts etc, because from what i've seen this rarely works in practice.

First off, if you're trying to block a Rapid Spin, i'm pretty sure that you most likely have Stealth Rock up at this point (unless they go directly into Hitmonlee/Zoroark on the hazards being set, which is really risky since both are pretty frail). Stealth Rock being up alone is enough to distinguish Zoroark from Hitmonlee, so if you're paying attention with a spikestacking team *most of the time* you should be able to tell, and this is from someone who's used and faced spikestacking quite a bit.

Even in a lead matchup where the opponent leads with one of these Pokemon directly against a suicide lead such as Omastar or Accelgor. Most of these leads hold a Focus Sash regardless so they can take a hit regardless of what Pokemon it is, and then you can react accordingly, after Life Orb recoil from either Pokemon you should be able to tell which is which later on in the game. In the case of Accelgor it can even use its fast Encore to stop a lead Hitmonlee from either Rapid Spinning or being an immediate threat, or stop Zoroark from using its priority/switching moves against the next Pokemon in.

As for the Knock Off...

252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 166-198 (53.7 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 135-161 (43.6 - 52.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO

Theres an obvious damage difference between these two Knock Offs that only gets larger if the opposing Zoroark is running a +attack nature, unless the Knock Off used KOs the pokemon you have out regardless, a simple damage calc reveals exactly what you're facing.

As for using Grass Knot to lure in Alomomola....

4 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Alomomola: 190-226 (38.2 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If physically based mixed Zoroark, Alomomola just doesn't care about that Grass Knot, and it actually wins the matchup. If Zoroark switches out immediately afterwards Alomomola just uses Leftovers+Regenerator to completely heal off all the damage done.

252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Alomomola: 234-276 (47 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Alomomola: 234-276 (47 - 55.5%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Specially based mixed Zoroark doesn't fare much better (and this is rare), the Grass Knot doesn't really do all that much more, and with Protect+Leftovers factored in Alomomola still has a high chance of living the second Grass Knot (assuming it hasn't been knocked off before), after Life Orb recoil the Zoroark will stick out like a sore thumb the next time, and Alomomola can simply heal off the damage with regen.


252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Alomomola: 268-316 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Alomomola: 267-315 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Choice Specs is actually painful, but Grass Knot doesn't even do more than Dark Pulse, Alomomola can still heal off at least some of the damage with Regenerator+Lefties+Protect, and knowing its Choice Specs you can switch into something else accordingly.

TL;DR:

If you're paying attention while trying to block a Rapid Spin you *should* be able to tell Zoroark and Hitmonlee apart.

A simple damage calculator can help you tell Zoroark and Hitmonlee's Knock Off apart

Unless you're Choice Specs Zoroark AND predict correctly, Alomomola doesn't care about Grass Knot Zoroark, and because of Regenerator even against Specs its still pretty well off..

 

[RufflesPro]

Gonna reply to this from a 100% neutral standpoint, just using like objective facts etc, because from what i've seen this rarely works in practice.

First off, if you're trying to block a Rapid Spin, i'm pretty sure that you most likely have Stealth Rock up at this point (unless they go directly into Hitmonlee/Zoroark on the hazards being set, which is really risky since both are pretty frail). Stealth Rock being up alone is enough to distinguish Zoroark from Hitmonlee, so if you're paying attention with a spikestacking team *most of the time* you should be able to tell, and this is from someone who's used and faced spikestacking quite a bit.

Even in a lead matchup where the opponent leads with one of these Pokemon directly against a suicide lead such as Omastar or Accelgor. Most of these leads hold a Focus Sash regardless so they can take a hit regardless of what Pokemon it is, and then you can react accordingly, after Life Orb recoil from either Pokemon you should be able to tell which is which later on in the game. In the case of Accelgor it can even use its fast Encore to stop a lead Hitmonlee from either Rapid Spinning or being an immediate threat, or stop Zoroark from using its priority/switching moves against the next Pokemon in.

As for the Knock Off...

252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 166-198 (53.7 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 135-161 (43.6 - 52.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO

Theres an obvious damage difference between these two Knock Offs that only gets larger if the opposing Zoroark is running a +attack nature, unless the Knock Off used KOs the pokemon you have out regardless, a simple damage calc reveals exactly what you're facing.

As for using Grass Knot to lure in Alomomola....

4 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Alomomola: 190-226 (38.2 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

If physically based mixed Zoroark, Alomomola just doesn't care about that Grass Knot, and it actually wins the matchup. If Zoroark switches out immediately afterwards Alomomola just uses Leftovers+Regenerator to completely heal off all the damage done.

252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Alomomola: 234-276 (47 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Alomomola: 234-276 (47 - 55.5%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Specially based mixed Zoroark doesn't fare much better (and this is rare), the Grass Knot doesn't really do all that much more, and with Protect+Leftovers factored in Alomomola still has a high chance of living the second Grass Knot (assuming it hasn't been knocked off before), after Life Orb recoil the Zoroark will stick out like a sore thumb the next time, and Alomomola can simply heal off the damage with regen.


252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Alomomola: 268-316 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Alomomola: 267-315 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Choice Specs is actually painful, but Grass Knot doesn't even do more than Dark Pulse, Alomomola can still heal off at least some of the damage with Regenerator+Lefties+Protect, and knowing its Choice Specs you can switch into something else accordingly.

TL;DR:

If you're paying attention while trying to block a Rapid Spin you *should* be able to tell Zoroark and Hitmonlee apart.

A simple damage calculator can help you tell Zoroark and Hitmonlee's Knock Off apart

Unless you're Choice Specs Zoroark AND predict correctly, Alomomola doesn't care about Grass Knot Zoroark, and because of Regenerator even against Specs its still pretty well off..

True that, but that's not what I meant, perhaps I didn't word properly

Yes you can differentiate between Zoroark's Knock off and Hitmonlee's Knock off, but if both kill the opposing pokemon at that range the it doesn't really matter and you still can't differentiate (EX: 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta Clawitzer at 30% or like Slowking after rocks, etc. etc.)

On the other hand, the #1 use for this core is to bait in Doublade and other Spinblockers, so when Zoroark uses Knock off on Doublade on the switch, you have a very high chance to getting killed at that range from Hitmonlee's Knock off at some point later in the game (assuming Doublade realized it was Zoroark and switched), or you could stay, not realize it was Zoroark and do no damage w/ Shadow Sneak, and get killed. Which basically means the core has done what it's supposed to do, in either scenarios.

But your point stands, a smart player with a damage calc can differentiate between Zoroark and Hitmonlee if Knock off didn't kill / only kills w/ Zoroark.

As for hazards, that is true as far as rocks go, but it definitely isn't true for spikes or toxic spikes, the simplicity of not having rocks on the game means this core is effective. This problem has been extra problematic to my team especially since I have an unreliable rocker named Dugtrio.

As for Grass Knot's thing, I also didn't word it really good.

I mean for Phys. Defensive Alomomola, which means

4 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 247-291 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Since I used it on hazard team this is about 50% chance to 2HKO after 1 Spikes assuming the opponent Protect-ed, and about 90% at 2 spikes.

I know with full knowledge that mixed bulk mola isn't gonna even lose 46% w/ GK, but for that HJK from Hitmonlee 2HKOs, usually GK is just to scout the set and do anything more than regenerator was fine to me.