Metagame NP: Stage 3: Tunak Tunak Tun

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Molk

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True that, but that's not what I meant, perhaps I didn't word properly

Yes you can differentiate between Zoroark's Knock off and Hitmonlee's Knock off, but if both kill the opposing pokemon at that range the it doesn't really matter and you still can't differentiate (EX: 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta)

On the other hand, the #1 use for this core is to bait in Doublade and other Spinblockers, so when Zoroark uses Knock off on Doublade on the switch, you have a very high chance to getting killed at that range from Hitmonlee's Knock off at some point later in the game (assuming Doublade realized it was Zoroark and switched), or you could stay, not realize it was Zoroark and do no damage w/ Shadow Sneak, and get killed. Which basically means the core has done what it's supposed to do, in either scenarios.

But your point stands, a smart player with a damage calc can differentiate between Zoroark and Hitmonlee if Knock off didn't kill / only kills w/ Zoroark.

As for hazards, that is true as far as rocks go, but it definitely isn't true for spikes or toxic spikes, the simplicity of not having rocks on the game means this core is effective. This problem has been extra problematic to my team especially since I have an unreliable rocker named Dugtrio.

As for Grass Knot's thing, I also didn't word it really good.

I mean for Phys. Defensive Alomomola, which means

4 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alomomola: 247-291 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Since I used it on hazard team this is about 50% chance to 2HKO after 1 Spikes assuming the opponent Protect-ed, and about 90% at 2 spikes.

I know with full knowledge that mixed bulk mola isn't gonna even lose 46% w/ GK, but for that HJK from Hitmonlee OHKOs, usually GK is just to scout the set and do anything more than regenerator was fine to me.
Actually that pretty much *IS* the physically defensive mola spread for the current metagame.

252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 286-337 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 104 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 286-337 (57.5 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Because of the way Alomomola's base stats are distributed, that particular EV spread loses almost no relevant physical bulk, the difference in damage only gets smaller as the hits get weaker.

EDIT: for the record, if i have the option of doing so i'll always set up rocks first with say Omastar, ESPECIALLY if i'm fighting a Zoroark+Hitmonlee core.
 
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Texas Cloverleaf

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Mola should always be running some form of special bulk at the expense of hp, the spread you listed is inefficient and almost always outclassed

Also I would suggest if you have such problems with hitmonlee vs doublade you should probably be altering your team. You cant very well say "zoro+lee is too strong because my only lee check is doublade and my rocks setter is bad," that's just lazy teambuilding
 
if you're using a physically defensive alomomola without any special defense investment then you're using a bad mola spread, lol. With special defense investment, say, 104, Mola is able to take on a fuck ton of more stuff than it would normally, like LO Clawitzer and Delphox while retaining almost the same amount of physical bulk.

EDIT: don't snipe me you nerds
 
Nah frens you need to chill

I never said 252 / 252 Mola was better, I fully know and realize it's completely outclassed by mixmola, IK how EVs and stats work, relax I only used Grass Knot on the ladder, because from what I've seen everybody uses 252 HP / 252+ Def Mola except like on top 50 on the ladder, since that's the suggested spread (IK ladder sucks guys, like nobody bothers to check smogon sets, or very few people) but the thing is this mistake that everybody uses screws up Hitmonlee, since w/ Protect you have a very low chance of 2HKO-ing w/ HJK, not to mention if I knocked off predicting the Protect and he didn't, that just means he got a free heal, so Protect mind games (since it will cost me 50%) and having a very low chance of 2HKO-ing (I always like to assume no hazards / hazards have been defogger when making strategies / EV-ing as much has possible) makes Alomomola sooo annoying to handle and work around, and that's why GK Zoroark is just to 2HKO on ladder, very high ladder I at least damage it more than Regenerator heals.

Texas Cloverleaf Other than what I stated earlier, it's not that "My rocks setter is bad" or that "that's just lazy teambuilding" I really can't fit a rocker on my team (would've put Sandslash) since I want take out Registeel and all the other members are fulfilling a role. And "zoro+lee is too strong because my only Hitmonlee is Doublade" it's because Zoroark can cover a lot of of what Hitmonlee struggles with, Doublade, Gligar (HP Ice), Phys. defensive Alomomola (it's on the ladder guys don't go attacking like beasts again :]), and because Zoroark can disguise as Hitmonlee using Knock Off w/o being revealed to a certain extent (as long as Knock off kills regardless).

Not to mention, although really minor, Zoroark (if disguised as Hitmonle) can take a Psychic- type hit assuming the opponent went for one

If this was a tournament or serious laddering I would use Low Kick / Flamethrower instead of GK.
 

Mew2

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True that, but that's not what I meant, perhaps I didn't word properly

Yes you can differentiate between Zoroark's Knock off and Hitmonlee's Knock off, but if both kill the opposing pokemon at that range the it doesn't really matter and you still can't differentiate (EX: 0 HP / 4 ) Meloetta
I get your point but imo this isn't a good example; Hitmonlee (base 87 speed) fails to outspeed Meloetta (base 90 speed) so if you see a Hitmonlee outspeeding your Meloetta, killing it with Knock Off and taking LO damage you would already know that it is a Zoroark (base 105 speed). But I get your point friend just change the example :]
 
Alright guess It's time to post, seen a few too many New Breed agents in this thread now. I'ma c/p some stuff over from my previous posts cuz lazy. Also I support a Yanmega ban, too lazy to post why and pro ban side has covered p much everything.

For Zoroark It's close but, I don't think it should be banned. There are 2 main aspects to focus on with Zoroark, Illusion and versatility.

Illusion - Now this aspect I believe to be way overhyped, and it's generally cuz the example scenarios people give are incredibly rare and/or try to make it seem like making the most of Illusion is risk free. In reality majority of these situations can only happen if you lead Zoroark or bring it out very early game, this is because of 3 things:
  • The order you choose at the beginning of a battle can become muddled by general switching, meaning you may not have a pokemon that can give Zoroark a good disguise in the 6th slot, or Zoro itself can be there
  • After 1 round of LO recoil it's very easy to keep track of which mon Zoro is, even if one if its teammates is running LO they have to have taken the same amount of recoil and be affected the same way by hazards
  • Majority of the pokemon Zoroark likes to disguise itself as are affected differently by Hazards, such as Delphox and Hitmonlee
So opportunities to utilise Illusion are most often limited to early game, and can only be used once per match.

As for the '50/50' scenario I don't see how the Zoroark user is always in an advantageous position since, unless Zoroark is able to threaten both the current mon and the potential switch in, it risks losing if the opponent doesn't fall for the ruse and stays in. For example if you have a Zoro disguised as Moltres and you bring it in on Gligar trying to bait Slowking, but your opponent doesn't switch, then you've lost the gamble. Zoroark rusing is not without risks, and no side has the advantage outside of very specific scenarios where Zoro is able to threaten both the current mon and the potential switch in, and has illusion intact.

Versatility - For this aspect on the other hands, the arguments are justified. Zoroark, due to its great mixed attacking stats (and the ability to boost both stats), Priority, Knock Off, and finally its great Special movepool, is very hard to counter or scout safely, since depending on the moveset it has the potential to beat almost every mon in RU. Having said that, Knock Off and Sucker Punch are fairly staple, Knock Off being easy to spam and Zoro's strongest attack, whilst Sucker Punch helps to avoid being revenge killed by faster mons or other priority users. In the final 2 slots though, the options are basically limitless, and can tailored to beat specific threats that your team or Zoro may struggle with, such as GK for Rhyp, Extrasensory for Gurdurr, Flamethrower for Viri/Cobal, HP Ice for Gligar, Focus Blast for Registeel, and Pursuit to just trap things that fear dying to a Knock Off. Swords Dance also can be fairly potent late game.

So basically it's incredibly difficult to scout Zoroark safely, however what keeps it in line is its inability to cover everything with a single moveset and a fairly large list of viable, universal Checks + Counters. Aromatisse, Togetic, Gurdurr, Hitmontop, Virizion, Alomomola, Drapion can always switch in bar incredibly rare sets, and then Gligar, Cobalion, MegaSnow, Amoonguss, Tangrowth, Weezing, Granbull are al effective Checks but have to be wary of specific coverage.

So overall I believe Zoroark is manageable in the tier, and thus shouldn't be banned. Not that I'll get to vote since I didn't ladder for reqs hehe bwoi, just have to hope the wisdom I've imparted has managed to free the minds of those under Aborigine wizard New Breed's spell.
 
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Just going to put in my two cents:
1) Yanmega should not be banned. While it has two different roles that it can fulfill in the metagame, both of which it does very well, both have plenty of counters and checks that can deal with it.
a) Wallbreaker: running tinted lens with choice specs or LO, yanmega does a very good job of, you guessed it, breaking walls. The only switch-ins to wallbreaker yanmega that don't just get 2hkoed are registeel, audino (#BasedAudino), lickilicky, and aromatisse. Yet 3 of the 4 of these take around 45 percent, so in reality the only reliable switch in to this set is registeel. Even so, this does not make yanmega op. Landorus, in ou, is just as reliable of a wallbreaker, and is not considered op. Choice specs exploud and clawitzer can break walls just as easily as yanmega, and really only differ in that they lack the same speed tier. So while yanmega can break walls, this does not make it unique or broken in the metagame, rather it makes it healthy for a metagame with stall as such a dominant playstyle. Furthermore, wallbreaker yanmega is easily revenge killable, as it is outsped by a whole plethora of pokemon in the tier, pretty frail, and generally lacks hp and therefore survivability because of its 4x weakness to the omnipresent stealth rocks. In conclusion: wallbreaker yanmega does indeed break walls, but it is not unique in this aspect and has several weaknesses that make it counterable and not broken.
b) Late Game Sweeper: running speed boost with LO, yanmega does become a formidable late game sweeper that can outspeed any potential revenge killers and clean up a team with powerful attacks. However, with the increased speed comes a severely disadvantaged offense. Without tinted lens, common threats such as aromatisse, doublade, registeel, or really any other bulky resisted hit to bug buzz can wall yanmega, making it not op.
*Interesting side note* The only really op yanmega set that I see in the current metagame would be LO speedboost with nasty pass togetic. With +2 or +4 spatk yanmega becomes extremely difficult to wall as well as revenge kill, making it extremely effective at killing everything. However, this is also true with other recipients of nastypass, such as sharpedo. So the problem in this instance lies not in yanmega, but in nastypass plus speed boost. Or just nastypass togetic. Or just baton pass in general.
Conclusion: Yanmega has two solid roles in the ou metagame that make it a powerful threat. However, each of these roles has checks/counters that can effectively deal with it. Wallbreaker yanmega can be easily revenge killed due to a lack of speed (modest nature). Late game sweeper yanmega can be easily walled due to a lack of tinted lens. Also, stealth rocks kinda annihilates it. Therefore, it is not op and should not be banned.
Thoughts on zoroark later
-CFB
 
Just going to put in my two cents:
1) Yanmega should not be banned. While it has two different roles that it can fulfill in the metagame, both of which it does very well, both have plenty of counters and checks that can deal with it.
a) Wallbreaker: running tinted lens with choice specs or LO, yanmega does a very good job of, you guessed it, breaking walls. The only switch-ins to wallbreaker yanmega that don't just get 2hkoed are registeel, audino (#BasedAudino), lickilicky, and aromatisse. Yet 3 of the 4 of these take around 45 percent, so in reality the only reliable switch in to this set is registeel. Even so, this does not make yanmega op. Landorus, in ou, is just as reliable of a wallbreaker, and is not considered op. Choice specs exploud and clawitzer can break walls just as easily as yanmega, and really only differ in that they lack the same speed tier. So while yanmega can break walls, this does not make it unique or broken in the metagame, rather it makes it healthy for a metagame with stall as such a dominant playstyle. Furthermore, wallbreaker yanmega is easily revenge killable, as it is outsped by a whole plethora of pokemon in the tier, pretty frail, and generally lacks hp and therefore survivability because of its 4x weakness to the omnipresent stealth rocks. In conclusion: wallbreaker yanmega does indeed break walls, but it is not unique in this aspect and has several weaknesses that make it counterable and not broken.
How does the fact that Yanmega is similar to other wallbreakers make it not broken? Unlike those wallbreakers, Specs Yanmega does not need to use its coverage to get past walls, but it can pretty much just spam Bug Buzz (or U-turn if the opponent has a Registeel), whereas wallbreakers like Exploud can be walled by common Pokemon such as Rhyperior, Registeel, and AV Slowking depending on the move they lock themselves into. Also, Landorus's banworthiness in OU has nothing at all to do with RU, so i don't know why you would even mention it. You also completely failed to address the fact that Specs Yanmega is often paired with Dugtrio, which lets its only major counter be easily taken advantage of and outright disposed of, turning it from a hard counter to a non-factor.
b) Late Game Sweeper: running speed boost with LO, yanmega does become a formidable late game sweeper that can outspeed any potential revenge killers and clean up a team with powerful attacks. However, with the increased speed comes a severely disadvantaged offense. Without tinted lens, common threats such as aromatisse, doublade, registeel, or really any other bulky resisted hit to bug buzz can wall yanmega, making it not op.
*Interesting side note* The only really op yanmega set that I see in the current metagame would be LO speedboost with nasty pass togetic. With +2 or +4 spatk yanmega becomes extremely difficult to wall as well as revenge kill, making it extremely effective at killing everything. However, this is also true with other recipients of nastypass, such as sharpedo. So the problem in this instance lies not in yanmega, but in nastypass plus speed boost. Or just nastypass togetic. Or just baton pass in general.
Why does it matter that Speed Boost Yanmega is easily walled when it isn't even supposed to be a wallbreaker? Of course stall has less trouble with Life Orb Yanmega, that's not the point. If you're running Speed Boost Yanmega and are using it as your main way to beat stall, that's your problem, not Yanmega's. Additionally, Speed Boost Yanmega is almost as good against offense as Specs Yanmega is against stall, since it resists common priority, has good coverage moves and the moveslots to run them (no idea why you even mentioned doublade when it is ohkoed by shadow ball lol), can't be revenge killed by most scarfers, and is plenty powerful enough to sweep through weakened offensive teams with incredible ease.
Conclusion: Yanmega has two solid roles in the ou metagame that make it a powerful threat. However, each of these roles has checks/counters that can effectively deal with it. Wallbreaker yanmega can be easily revenge killed due to a lack of speed (modest nature). Late game sweeper yanmega can be easily walled due to a lack of tinted lens. Also, stealth rocks kinda annihilates it. Therefore, it is not op and should not be banned.
Thoughts on zoroark later
-CFB
Overall, Yanmega is a Pokemon that puts a ton of pressure on both offense and stall just to keep it in check, and even if it is prepared for it can bypass its checks with relative ease, whether it be through coverage moves or Dugtrio. For me, this is what pushes Yanmega over the edge.
 

HypnoEmpire

Yokatta...
I'm not sure on Zoroark yet, but I believe Yanmega should not be banned.

Okay, so honestly, I think the meta has adapted to the point where Yanmega is no longer the terror it once was. Aromatisse is extremely common and, with a specially defensive spread, can wall both sets with relative ease. After laddering for a bit, I've noticed that Golbat and Togetic are also rising in use, so I don't know how you can say it's as simple as clicking Bug Buzz. Also, its Stealth Rock weakness is a HUGE disadvantage. Whenever I use Specs Yanmega, I actually found myself disappointed at how well it doesn't handle stall. I actually much prefer Hitmonlee over Yanmega as a wallbreaker as it actually has the coverage to destroy Aromatisse, Togetic, and Golbat, priority in Mach Punch or Sucker Punch, Rapid Spin, and no huge Stealth Rock weakness. But we're not suspecting Hitmonlee, we're suspecting Yanmega. Yanmega's Stealth Rock weakness is a bigger problem than it may seem. Specs Yanmega is constantly forced out against offensive Pokemon and if Stealth Rock is up, it can switch in 2 times at most. And no, just because Rapid Spin and Defog exist does not mean Stealth Rock isn't an issue. If I wanted a Pokemon to go toe to toe with stall, I would use SubBU Braviary or SubCM Meloetta. Yanmega as a Speed Boost Pokemon is pretty good, but it also fails versus stall. It takes priority pretty well and it has plenty of power up its sleeve, but its Stealth Rock weakness doesn't help with its ability to take priority and it's walled easily, so yeah. I think its problems actually make Yanmega a balanced Pokemon.

Zoroark, on the other hand, I'm not so sure on. It can lure in things like Gligar, Doublade, etc., but if Zoroark loses the 50/50, it usually can't fool the other person again as it's very obvious to see Life Orb recoil. Zoroark's versatility, great offensive stats, and Illusion might push Zoroark for the ban, but I don't feel like it's really ban-worthy right now. Zoroark can make some neat 50/50's, but is that enough?

Also, I'm not sure if it's just me, but NastyPass Togetic seems to be a lot more common than before.
 

Ares

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I'm not sure on Zoroark yet, but I believe Yanmega should not be banned.

Okay, so honestly, I think the meta has adapted to the point where Yanmega is no longer the terror it once was. Aromatisse is extremely common and, with a specially defensive spread, can wall both sets with relative ease. After laddering for a bit, I've noticed that Golbat and Togetic are also rising in use, so I don't know how you can say it's as simple as clicking Bug Buzz. Also, its Stealth Rock weakness is a HUGE disadvantage. Whenever I use Specs Yanmega, I actually found myself disappointed at how well it doesn't handle stall. I actually much prefer Hitmonlee over Yanmega as a wallbreaker as it actually has the coverage to destroy Aromatisse, Togetic, and Golbat, priority in Mach Punch or Sucker Punch, Rapid Spin, and no huge Stealth Rock weakness. But we're not suspecting Hitmonlee, we're suspecting Yanmega. Yanmega's Stealth Rock weakness is a bigger problem than it may seem. Specs Yanmega is constantly forced out against offensive Pokemon and if Stealth Rock is up, it can switch in 2 times at most. And no, just because Rapid Spin and Defog exist does not mean Stealth Rock isn't an issue. If I wanted a Pokemon to go toe to toe with stall, I would use SubBU Braviary or SubCM Meloetta. Yanmega as a Speed Boost Pokemon is pretty good, but it also fails versus stall. It takes priority pretty well and it has plenty of power up its sleeve, but its Stealth Rock weakness doesn't help with its ability to take priority and it's walled easily, so yeah. I think its problems actually make Yanmega a balanced Pokemon.

Zoroark, on the other hand, I'm not so sure on. It can lure in things like Gligar, Doublade, etc., but if Zoroark loses the 50/50, it usually can't fool the other person again as it's very obvious to see Life Orb recoil. Zoroark's versatility, great offensive stats, and Illusion might push Zoroark for the ban, but I don't feel like it's really ban-worthy right now. Zoroark can make some neat 50/50's, but is that enough?

Also, I'm not sure if it's just me, but NastyPass Togetic seems to be a lot more common than before.
Its to the point though were the meta has registeel, golbat, or a togetic on every team to not get absolutely destroyed by specs tinted lens Yanmega. Having to put these on every team is pretty much the definition of centralizing. Also Aromatisse isnt a good stop to Yanmega, because the mixed variant has a chance to get 2HKOd by Yanmega after rocks and it needs to be at or close to 100% health to be able to come in on yanmega everytime and not get 2HKO'd. Also Aromatisse tends to get flinched to death in my experience. As far as Yanmega's stealth rock weakness goes, yes you have to keep rocks off the field for a lot of the game. But if you choose your switches carefully Yanmega can come in twice if you dont get rocks off the field and punch a couple of holes in the enemy team. Its not as easy keeping rocks off of the field as some people are saying but at the same time it isnt as big of a problem as you are making it out to be.
 

aVocado

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Wow, I've never ever ever ever had an issue with these two Pokemon. Probably because Moltres and Regice wall's 92% of the tier.
That is never a good argument to not ban anything. Any person can say "I never had issues with Kyurem" or "I never had issues with Azelf" and it wouldn't matter because those Pokemon are objectively broken. And I personally never had problems with Kyurem because I always had Bronzong in most of my teams just for Kyurem and Shaymin, but I still admit that the former was broken and still needed to leave the tier (hell, Kyurem can even beat Bronzong by PP stalling the Gyro Ball.). Naturally you wouldn't have any problem to something if you always ran a dedicated counter.

I'm not sure on Zoroark yet, but I believe Yanmega should not be banned.

Okay, so honestly, I think the meta has adapted to the point where Yanmega is no longer the terror it once was. Aromatisse is extremely common and, with a specially defensive spread, can wall both sets with relative ease. After laddering for a bit, I've noticed that Golbat and Togetic are also rising in use, so I don't know how you can say it's as simple as clicking Bug Buzz. Also, its Stealth Rock weakness is a HUGE disadvantage. Whenever I use Specs Yanmega, I actually found myself disappointed at how well it doesn't handle stall. I actually much prefer Hitmonlee over Yanmega as a wallbreaker as it actually has the coverage to destroy Aromatisse, Togetic, and Golbat, priority in Mach Punch or Sucker Punch, Rapid Spin, and no huge Stealth Rock weakness. But we're not suspecting Hitmonlee, we're suspecting Yanmega. Yanmega's Stealth Rock weakness is a bigger problem than it may seem. Specs Yanmega is constantly forced out against offensive Pokemon and if Stealth Rock is up, it can switch in 2 times at most. And no, just because Rapid Spin and Defog exist does not mean Stealth Rock isn't an issue. If I wanted a Pokemon to go toe to toe with stall, I would use SubBU Braviary or SubCM Meloetta. Yanmega as a Speed Boost Pokemon is pretty good, but it also fails versus stall. It takes priority pretty well and it has plenty of power up its sleeve, but its Stealth Rock weakness doesn't help with its ability to take priority and it's walled easily, so yeah. I think its problems actually make Yanmega a balanced Pokemon.

Zoroark, on the other hand, I'm not so sure on. It can lure in things like Gligar, Doublade, etc., but if Zoroark loses the 50/50, it usually can't fool the other person again as it's very obvious to see Life Orb recoil. Zoroark's versatility, great offensive stats, and Illusion might push Zoroark for the ban, but I don't feel like it's really ban-worthy right now. Zoroark can make some neat 50/50's, but is that enough?

Also, I'm not sure if it's just me, but NastyPass Togetic seems to be a lot more common than before.
Golbat (Specially Defensive Golbat, mind you) and Togetic rose in usage because of Yanmega and that just proves how its overcentralizing. You might call it adapting, but when using an inferior moveset for Golbat when physically defensive is objectively a lot more better, that's kinda proof that Yanmega is broken. Togetic rose in popularity because of the recently discovered nastypass set that when combined with Yanmega, just wrecks pretty much the entirety of the metagame outside of very few sturdy walls like Registeel (which Togetic can handle itself with Fire Blast) and SpD Aromatisse which can be overwhelmed by +2 Air Slash. It is also a pretty solid counter to both suspect tests, but outside of that it's a niche mon that is mostly outclassed by other Pokemon. As for Yanmega being walled, both Registeel and SpD Aromatisse, the most common Yanmega counters, are effectively trapped and killed by Choice Band Dugtrio, which is often paired with Choice Specs Yanmega:

252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aromatisse: 232-274 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 252-296 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Stealth Rock might be an issue but it's not as big as you say it is. Gligar is very common and nothing can practically stop it from Defogging since it is very reliable and bulky, and there are a couple of good spinners that are also reliable like Sandslash and to an extent, Hitmonlee. On HO teams where Yanmega is usually used, they often force enough pressure to prevent the opponent from using Stealth Rock anyway assuming it's not a Focus Sash lead like Omastar. Balance teams often use Pokemon like Druddigon, Registeel, or Rhyperior to set up stealth rocks and against HO teams those Pokemon find little opportunities to do so. I do get your point however, that losing 50% HP upon switch in sucks for Yanmega, and while it is a good method of keeping Yanmega in check, it's not enough reason to not ban Yanmega. SubBU Braviary and SubCM Meloetta can be easily checked by Stall using Pokemon like Golbat with Infiltrator Toxic, Haze (it's used on pokes like weezing and cofag), and most importantly phazing. Yanmega needs no set up, isn't afraid of Toxic as much as SubCM/SubBU mons, and isn't affected at all by pHazing. You are also forgetting that those SubCM/SubBU mons aren't wallbreakers, they are stallbeakers, and there's a difference.

As for Speed Boost, it virtually can't be revenge killed for offensive teams which is enough reason to ban Yanmega alone. That is a HUGE advantage that the Yanmega person has over the opposing offensive team right from the start. Priority is a thing, yes, but Yanmega x4 resists the most common priority which is Mach Punch, and it has enough bulk to take Sucker Punch from all Pokemon in the tier and still survive to land a few more hits before dying from Life Orb damage, which is usually more than enough. Sharpedo is another strong Speed Boost user, but it is weak to Mach Punch and not as hard to check.

For Zoroark, Life Orb isn't the only item it can run, and Swords Dance -which, imo, is the best set- often uses items like Black Glasses or even Focus Sash as opposed to Life Orb for exactly that reason, to not give away the RUse. The combination of Illusion, Swords Dance, and Knock Off which is the best STAB to have in the entire game is a bit too much. And yes, the 50/50 argument is enough to ban it alone, most of the time. But in this case, it's not the only reason since Zoroark has killer offensive stats, the best STAB ever which is Knock Off, strong priority, and amazing coverage options as well as things like Trick and U-turn.
 

Ares

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Wow, I've never ever ever ever had an issue with these two Pokemon. Probably because Moltres and Regice wall's 92% of the tier.
Like Arikado said, thats not a good way to look at something when a pokemon is up for a suspect. In an ideal world when a pokemon is being suspected, the person voting should play the 3 main styles of competative pokemon (Hyper Offense, Balance, Stall). Then after playing all 3 styles they should have an idea on whether or not the pokemon being suspected is broken or not. Now I and probably the majority of people getting reqs for this suspect test dont do this, cause lets face it most of us dont have enough time to do that or dont want to play that much. But a better way to look at it is to take a look at the different styles of play and see how the pokemon being suspected affects each one. After taking a look at it as a whole a person voting can make a much better decision. So while you might not have had problems while battling the suspected mons with your particular playstyle that doesnt mean that they dont give trouble to other play styles.
 

phantom

Banned deucer.
I guess I'll give my final thoughts on the suspects since I've only been replying to posts.

Zoroark:

This needs to be banned. Illusion is just a really silly ability, akin to that of other abilities that just pollute competitive environments, such as Shadow Tag and Moody. What makes Zoroark a particularly good user and why it's actually ban worthy is that it has both the stats and movepool to amplify the innate toxicity of Illusion to absurd levels. This is the main selling point here. People seem to think that Zoroark is all of a sudden a walk in the park to deal with once Illusion is given up, may I remind those who think that way that Zoroark possess some of the best offensive stats in RU with the incredible movepool to boot. This movepool is what allows it to be the most customizable lure, allowing it to tailor-fit its movepool to smash whatever it wants, basically little effort is required in order for it to lure in and kill what it needs to. The only arguments I've seen against the ban we're pretty terrible. One such is, "you can just play around it", thanks mate, I never thought of that! Another is when people say "Zoroark's Illusion can easily be seen; I've never had problems with it because it's frail and can't switch in". These fall under "git gud" logic and anecdotal evidence, respectively. So I don't exactly see the legitimacy in these arguments or why anybody is lead to believe that anti-ban party is standing on anything other than a mountain of bullshit. The anti-ban arguments through and through this thread have failed to address how the 50/50s Zoroark creates aren't a problem, whereas the pro-ban have consistently given strong points as to how just one slip up can cost you the match. The other thing I'd like to address as how some don't think Zoroark has the advantage when it comes to Illusion. If you want to know why the Zoroark user has the advantage, it's because they know what Pokemon Zoroark disguised themselves at, it's just that simple. The Zoroark user is in a situation where all they have to do is make an educated guess, if even that, whereas the person facing Zoroark is just blindly guessing with no information in their hand other than knowing that Zoroark is on the opposing team and possibly disguised as one of the Pokemon. This is just bullshit and I just can't understand how people argue against this. Lastly, for those who think Yanmega is broken, but think Zoroark is fine and use the SR / Hazard argument against Illusion, that's just plain hypocritical to say the least. How can one argue that hazards are easy to remove in the case of Yanmega, thus making it a non issue when dealing with it, but say the opposite for Zoroark is beyond me. Even if the SR argument held some sort of merit (which it doesn't), well over half the tier takes neutral damage to SR guys, it's not exactly hard to disguise Zoroark as something that does. I'll be blunt here that I think anyone who thinks Zoroark is balanced is either lying to themselves or just doesn't play enough. There has yet to be made one good anti-ban argument, and that's probably because there isn't one.

Yanmega:

I don't care much for Yanmega, especially when Zoroark is around, but I do think it's unhealthy and can be justifiably banned due to its constriction on teambuilding, not so much for the fact that it can 2HKO everything, I mean it's a wallbreaker, that's its job, but moreso in that its counters are very specialized, and some of those specially defensive counterparts are inferior to their physically defensive ones, such as in the case of Aromatisse. This is really what points to its overcentralization is that you have to run inferior sets to beat it. I don't count Dugtrio in this argument considering it isn't an extension of Yanmega like a coverage move is or an alternate item or what have you. If people thought that Yanmega would be just fine if it couldn't trap Registeel (which they don't judging by this thread), then that's more of a reflection on Dugtrio then it is on Yanmega. In any case, the fact that its checks are very specific (and the specialized checks have to go further into running niche spreads that are otherwise inferior to their more standard versions and can yet STILL be played around due to the fact that Yanmega's fourth move is dispensable), both for dealing with tinted lens in the case of stall and speed boost in the case of offense, is what really makes this Pokemon a bit too much to deal with. So for that reason, I guess I'm convinced so I'll vote ban.

tl;dr

There's no reason not to ban Zoroark, and you're shitting yourself if you think otherwise.

Yanemega isn't the god of armageddon that people claim it is, but it is quite centralizing and creates an atmosphere of pure stagnation, and thus should be banned for that.
 
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So I'm going to make the statement that I see Zoroark as uncompetitive. First I'd like to provide a quote from Spirit:
Spirit said:
Another example is the opposing team having a Doublade as their check to Virizion. Zoroark disguises as Virizion, lures in Doublade, and smashes it to pieces. The opposing team lost their Virizion counter and is in for one hell of a ride. I still don't get it. What part of this is difficult or can even be hyperbolized to the point where the word skill is invoked to describe such scenarios? Zoroark is a nightmare to play against and you even admitted that, so why do you insist that it might even be close to balanced just because it suggests the use of some kind of "skill" on the user's part? I can't speak for anyone else, but I for one would be really disappointed if a Pokemon like this stayed
Now I think this is a great argument. Competitive pokemon is supposed to be be a game that is skill-based, and even though there are a lot of luck elements in the game (crits, misses, freezes, paras, parasect, etc), but generally the aim (and especially the aim of smogon tiering) is to make the game as skill-heavy as possible, and to do so it is necessary to factor out all huge luck dependent factors (ohko clause, swagger clause). Now on first sight, Zoroark is nothing of this sort. It requires skill to use, "hmm do I hit knock off here or sucker punch" (as an example). However, this is as far as it goes. This bit of skill was also present in the ohko/swagger clauses (hmm should I substitute here predicting the switch or go for a foul play). Zoroark does not support competitive play. Because of Illusion it can easily disguise itself as a different pokemon (virzion maybe, as provided in the example), lure that pokemon in and kill it. Now some might say "I've played Zoroark with skill because I successfully disguised it as pokemon X, lured and killed pokemon Y". While this may required skill to do, or so you would think, it is actually a guessing game. Your opponent has no way to know if he is seeing a Virizion or a Doublade on the field. He just doesn't know. He can assume "ok so doublade is a great virizion check, he probably wants my doublade gone", but you never know this for sure. What if he sends out Virizion first? You may predict it to be zoroark and switch in your Hitmonlee to take a knock off, only to find it getting destroyed by a close combat. You have no way of knowing what will happen. It is near impossible to rely on skill to 'outplay' this scenario.

Maybe you see this as a common 50/50 situation, and say "by this logic 50/50's take no skill either" (knock off vs pursuit e.g), but you can play accordingly to those depending on risk vs reward. This applies less here, you cant win such a situation. (at this point in time Spirit posted a quality comment explaining this point quite well, I went: "WELL DAMMIT"). If you make the wrong switch you lose your counter to X, so X can sweep later. If you play right and switch in your Zoroark you could get set up. Yup. Swords Dance or Nasty Plot to the face. Zoroark creates a lot of these "50/50's" at the same time, some of them only potentially being there but you still need to take them into consideration. The way this pokemon plays, combined with Illusion is a huge problem. It really messes with your ability to play and how you need to predict. There is a way around all of this, arguably one of the best ways to deal (or be able to do better, rather) in this situation is having hazards up. Zoroark has a much harder time disguising itself as some pokemon, and when it comes back in it has taken a certain amount of damage so you can recognise it. However using hazards to prevent this pokemon from entirely ripping you apart with its guessing games and amazing movepool/stats etc. is not the most reliable way. This would steer the meta into suicide lead offense even more.

If it hasn't been proven already, it will do so even more in the future. Zoroark is broken, uncompetitive and scrwes with the tier because of what it does and will only get more overcentralizing over time. I'm voting to ban it, Zoroark cannot stay in RU.


i am a zoroark. i haev a illusive ability that i use to lure in counters and kill them off. if you dont post this comment on 10 other pages i will disguise myself and make a mess of your predictions.
 
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EonX

Battle Soul
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no one uses my innovative teams ;_;
The only people that use my teams are my tutees and mentees, 4 of which made reqs so far for what that's worth.

Feeding off of my teams and stuff I've been working with, has anyone tried out Zoroark + Virizion? A lot of people like disguising Zoroark as something like Hitmonlee, or even Cobalion, but for some reason, I think it works better with Virizion. This may be due to the fact that you can use the RUse a bit more safely, especially against the likes of Slowking and Gastrodon. This is probably due to the fact that Virizion threatens both Pokemon or forces them to use a move Zoro doesn't care about. Even if the opponent sees through the RUse, Slowking faces the prospect of Knock Off while Gastrodon is hurt p. badly by Grass Knot, meaning they'll still be forced out to give Zoroark a free chance to use Swords Dance. Now, obviously, both can learn Swords Dance, thus making it harder to see through the RUse. What makes it more difficult is that Virizion commonly carries Lum Berry, so if Zoroark comes in earlier as something else and simply throws out a Knock Off and switches back out, the opponent will still have a difficult time figuring out if the RUse is real or not should Rocks be off the field. What else have you found to work well with the master of the RUse, Zoroark, that may not be so obvious choices?
 
The only people that use my teams are my tutees and mentees, 4 of which made reqs so far for what that's worth.

Feeding off of my teams and stuff I've been working with, has anyone tried out Zoroark + Virizion? A lot of people like disguising Zoroark as something like Hitmonlee, or even Cobalion, but for some reason, I think it works better with Virizion. This may be due to the fact that you can use the RUse a bit more safely, especially against the likes of Slowking and Gastrodon. This is probably due to the fact that Virizion threatens both Pokemon or forces them to use a move Zoro doesn't care about. Even if the opponent sees through the RUse, Slowking faces the prospect of Knock Off while Gastrodon is hurt p. badly by Grass Knot, meaning they'll still be forced out to give Zoroark a free chance to use Swords Dance. Now, obviously, both can learn Swords Dance, thus making it harder to see through the RUse. What makes it more difficult is that Virizion commonly carries Lum Berry, so if Zoroark comes in earlier as something else and simply throws out a Knock Off and switches back out, the opponent will still have a difficult time figuring out if the RUse is real or not should Rocks be off the field. What else have you found to work well with the master of the RUse, Zoroark, that may not be so obvious choices?
Yes, Ive used the double SD ruse with Virizion. I've got positive experiences from that.
 
Tauros is one of my favourite "weird" illusions. As Tauros only needs some Physical walls and Ghost-types weakened to clean up late game and tends to destroy Zoroark's conventional checks (like Virizion)
It is pretty much the perfect illusion.
When trying them out I have used two "weird" sets in Ice Beam/Fire Blast/Rock Climb/Eq Tauros and Pursuit SD Zoroark but using Mixed Pursuit + Hidden Power Ice Zoroark and Zen Headbutt Tauros works too.
Zoroark severely weakens or kills all the Ghost-types trying to switch into it with Knock Off+Pursuit and removes Eviolite from Doublade and Gligar for an easy OHKO with Tauros. The duo kinda struggles with Alomomola, however, so special Zoroark (who does better against Ghosts anyway) who struggles less with it is a good choice too.
With its checks weakened late game the only thing stopping Tauros (which is stronger than yanmega u haters) is a Rock Climb miss.
 
I guess I'll give my final thoughts on the suspects since I've only been replying to posts.

Zoroark:

This needs to be banned. Illusion is just a really silly ability, akin to that of other abilities that just pollute competitive environments, such as Shadow Tag and Moody. What makes Zoroark a particularly good user and why it's actually ban worthy is that it has both the stats and movepool to amplify the innate toxicity of Illusion to absurd levels. This is the main selling point here. People seem to think that Zoroark is all of a sudden a walk in the park to deal with once Illusion is given up, may I remind those who think that way that Zoroark possess some of the best offensive stats in RU with the incredible movepool to boot. This movepool is what allows it to be the most customizable lure, allowing it to tailor-fit its movepool to smash whatever it wants, basically little effort is required in order for it to lure in and kill what it needs to.
^ Spirit 's argument is really good here.

Anyways I'm kind of new to XY RU, but one thing I'm SURE (like absolutely fucking sure) is that Zoroak needs to go. The whole point of a so-called 'metagame' is to allow players to enjoy a competitive environment and to hone the skills of new players by using this environment. Zoroak creates these goddamn mind-games because you have no idea if it is the real or not the real one. It's essentially a 50/50 on like every. single. turn. You have no idea what to switch to simply because of the fact that Zoroak is on the opposing team. Illusion + mind games + access to Knock Off and a ridiculously strong STAB Sucker Punch + fucking amazing coverage simply makes it way too strong.

this boi needs to go
 

breh

強いだね
Ok, so I finally finished laddering.

RU'S BEST SPINNER (Claydol) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 196 SpA / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin
- Calm Mind

Omastar @ Focus Sash
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Ice Beam

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance

Zoroark @ Black Glasses
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Flamethrower

Yanmega @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Giga Drain
- Protect

Druddigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch


I saw a lot of battles linked on irc where people were using New Breed's Omastar and the thing really captivated me. It's a great mon and, like most hazards leads, pretty much guarantees two hazards in most circumstances. I was always really impressed with the relative ease with which it tended to get hazards and decided to see how both of the suspects would work with rocks and a layer always up. Thus, I slapped Omastar, the suspects, and the best spinblocker in the tier together with Druddigon and Claydol. I don't think I've used Claydol on a team since like, DPP UU when I was first starting out; it's piss weak setup fodder. Recently, though, I filled up way too many lines on irc theorymonning about the stupid pos and its ability to deal with Doublade. Although I guess it dissuades it from coming in a bit more, it's still generally a piece of garbage not to be depended on for any task. Literally every single super effective move will take 60-70% off of its health. It's a shitty spinner and I feel bad for defending it as much as I feel bad for defending gen 5 hitmonchan lol

Anyway, onto something relevant:

Yanmega: Yanmega tends to be a win condition. If a couple of mons are sufficiently weakened, Zoroark is dead and / or Stealth Rock is not up (i.e. it can't Sucker Punch you to death), Yanmega will sweep pretty cleanly. What it can't KO, it will occasionally and somewhat reliably hax. I found that it doesn't really need Shadow Ball all that much, as Doublade can't take an infinite amount of Air Slashes. It has no way to regain any of its health so all damage is permanent. Combined with hazards, it tends to hemorrhage HP until it gets in Yanmega's KO range. All that I'm sad about at this point is that I didn't run Dugtrio. Registeel gives Yanmega big problems that Dugtrio fixes (in general, it gives this whole team problems; I wished I had Hitmonlee so many times but kept Claydol for my entertainment). Aromatisse also gives it problems, but it has to check both Yanmega and Zoroark at the same time; with its item Knocked Off and hazards down, it starts to come closer and closer to that magical range where Yanmega kills it with Air Slash. At times, I would tend to just lead with it because the offensive pressure it creates the second it's sent out can take a premature chunk off of the target's health and force in something that's easier for Omastar to set up on. Basically, it's a mon that really has very little holding it back beyond the shitty BP of its moves. It's crazy fast and pretty strong.

Playing against Yanmega was more or less the same as playing with it; I always was really aggressive with rocks when it was around and kept Doublade / Zoroark healthy. Full health Yanmega will kill two mons at least if it puts its mind to it. The worst situation occurs when two Yanmega lead against one another. It's a game of Air Slash chicken won by whoever's luckier; nobody wants to lose a mon so both players more or less coinflip Yanmega and, ultimately, the game.

I didn't use Tinted Lens and didn't see it at all. Beyond killing Doublade and making it easier to kill Registeel / Aromatisse, I feel like it's not as good. It is a relief to see that Yanmega is not getting faster (perhaps because that means that your own Yanmega is free to come in... idk). Yanmega's speed is a big part of what makes it so scary.

Zoroark: My preferred choice of ruse was Druddigon; when I didn't lead with Omastar, I occasionally used it as my ruse instead. I chose Blackglasses so I didn't lose my ability the second I made attacks. I don't know why, but I feel like I have less to say about zoro than Yanmega. As wide as its movepool is, Zoro is pigeonholed pretty hard into using Sucker Punch due to its shitty speed, which needs attack investment to be good, so then you're very much better off running Knock Off and suddenly two slots are gone with the other two being Swords Dance and / or coverage that facilitates Zoro getting rid of random physical walls. It never really KOes anything with Knock Off and always ends up a couple percent short at +2 and then you just kinda shake your head (maybe it's my fault for not using LO, idk lol). Still, I find that it always manages to have some sort of utility in a match; it has a really strong Sucker Punch and Knock Off always manages to do something useful even if it doesn't do enough damage to swing the match. Maybe you lure in that Gligar with a disguise of Druddigon and Swords Dance before Knocking Off its Eviolite, meaning that it can only switch in to defog a couple more times, or something else. As weak as Zoro can occasionally feel (for reference, Ambipom is stronger than this), it never feels useless. It's simultaneously slower than two Pokemon that can OHKO it and faster than pretty much the rest of the tier / able to KO it with Sucker Punch. It's a really odd balance that gets more and more painful the more Cobalion / Virizion you see, lol.

I played against less of these than Yanmega, but it's not overwhelmingly fun to play against. Whenever I didn't lead with Omastar (+1 Omastar outspeeds it and gets up two hazards so you win that matchup), every lead was "ugh I hope this isn't Zoroark". In the first turn, you have no ability to guess what Zoroark is; you just make a move and pray that you didn't just get fucked. Mid battle, again, it really helps to have hazards down. If Zoro is ever disguised as anything that's not grounded or rocks neutral, it instantly gives away the disguise. Even when you find zoro, though, finding something to switch into the knock off is never easy. Sucker Punching opposing Zoroark with my Zoroark was something that I did on occasion and it's frankly kinda silly. Knock Off resists aren't common and it's not nice that I have to shoehorn Aromatisse, Emboar, or Combusken onto my team to make sure that it doesn't have free reign against most of my mons. Nothing likes to lose its item.

I lean more towards ban on Yanmega than Zoro.

Finishing this longwinded shit since it's 4 A.M. \o/

Claydol is the best spinner second only to hitmonchan B)
 
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