np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]

[RoyalDispenser]

This is a hard one for me.. I honestly am inbetween it getting banned and it staying. It's power is obsured, it's typing is rediculous (immune to poison, and nuetralling steel and fighting and immunity to dragon, 2 weakness, and 4x resistant to bug.. you get the point), however it's easy to work around since it's low speed let's it down and sucker punch does nothing to pokemon like bisharp and HP fire greninja.. it's also easy to outspeed with your priority ruining sucker punch.. but then again it's bulky enough to not care with intimidate. It is extremely hard to switch into with play rough and iron head.. and would be checks/counters like scizor never handle a fire fang well, however the same could be said if scizor tries to pursuit trap and something is carrying HP fire..

I don't know what to say.. I like mega mawile but at the same time facing one isn't fun at all.. It's not sucker punch it's just the huge power in general.

If I had to vote I'd probably say do not ban because I'm able to handle them.. but I feel like that'd just be personal bias from my end since I have no problems with it, never lost to one, and play mind games with them all the time.. but over 200 base atk with a priority move and SD is a little too much.

 

[Karxrida]

well the problem isnt getting reqs honestly thats the easy part the hard part is getting everyone(the mayority) to understand its not broken i mean the metagame is evolving so you should expect the megas to hit hard also id just wish that gamefreak made new walls with excelent defensive stats they basically only gave us venusaur (mega) :\

PS:Im sorry for any mispelling im on my phone so ... Yeah

1.) Game Freak hates Stall with the passion of [insert cliche metaphor here]. Be happy you got Mega Venusaur.
2.) Mega Mawile can sweep any kind of team after one boost.
3.) Mega Mawile has the bulk and typing to try again if it's forced out.
4.) "Megas are supposed to be strong" is a bad anti-ban argument.

 

[Zapdos from [Hero]]

You didn't see my point AM145. I meant that the main argument against Mawile is the unwallability. You displayed the presence of MHerac MCham and MGarde w/e too. I will change my argument though, with the core statement still being no counters =/= broken. You even made examples for wallbreakers in OU, which show that being a good wb'er isn't broken. so why should mawile be so ? If we go against them like we are currently with mawile and did w/ Aegi THEN the metagame becomes too defensive. I'm theorymonning may be the next argument. I don't feel like I'm theorymonning. It seems to me like smogon is going on and on suspecting and banning things because they have no safe switchins. It will go on if you proceed like this. I can give you a list with the mons taking a +2 sucker and fitting perfectly into any offensive teams. Breloom, Lucario, Keldeo, Dragonite, Bisharp, Mega Gyarados, Terrakion, Mega Tyranitar etc. Any of which take a +2 sucker, are good in the current meta and can successfully revenge it after hitting it on the boost w/ the mon mawile boosts against.

 

[Karxrida]

You didn't see my point AM145. I meant that the main argument against Mawile is the unwallability. You displayed the presence of MHerac MCham and MGarde w/e too. I will change my argument though, with the core statement still being no counters =/= broken. You even made examples for wallbreakers in OU, which show that being a good wb'er isn't broken. so why should mawile be so ? If we go against them like we are currently with mawile and did w/ Aegi THEN the metagame becomes too defensive. I'm theorymonning may be the next argument. I don't feel like I'm theorymonning. It seems to me like smogon is going on and on suspecting and banning things because they have no safe switchins. It will go on if you proceed like this. I can give you a list with the mons taking a +2 sucker and fitting perfectly into any offensive teams. Breloom, Lucario, Keldeo, Dragonite, Bisharp, Mega Gyarados, Terrakion, Mega Tyranitar etc. Any of which take a +2 sucker, are good in the current meta and can successfully revenge it after hitting it on the boost w/ the mon mawile boosts against.

The difference between those 3 and Mega Mawile is that Mega Mawile isn't shit against offense and threatens the fuck out of them while those guys have to deal with shit like Birdspam, Thundurus, Scarfers, etc.

 

[Tressed]

hahaha this thread's quality is worse than Aegi's good god

I'm so pro-ban, Maw is probably my favorite thing about Gen 6 so far but there's no way I'm voting for this thing to stay OU. Best defensive typing in the game, usable bulk, terrifying STAB options, priority, a movepool just wide enough to hit basically every relevant threat, and an attack stat higher that Deoxys-A's.

Against stall, Mawile is terrifying. It's immune to Toxic, takes minimal damage from Stealth Rock, and has the bulk to shrug off chip damage most stallmons can throw at it. If the stall player gets forced out, they're either facing 1356 Attack with whatever coverage move it happens to be carrying in it's back pocket, or a Substitute with a 678 Attack Focus Punch waiting for them. It's hard counters are Mega Charizard Y, Arcanine, and Mega Venusaur, who are all worn down extremely fast by Stealth Rock and Mawile's resisted hits (unboosted Play Rough chunks Bold MVenu for around a quarter of it's health), which forces them to hand out turns healing up or get bowled over the next time they come in. Seriously, when your hard counter's weakness is Stealth Rock, it's not a hard counter any more.

Against offense, nothing switches in. Unless you're running Heatran or MVenu on your offensive team, Mawile is going to threaten a kill every time it manages to get in, never mind putting a ton of stress onto your defensive core and weakening your team for a sweep. To be fair, getting Mawile in is far harder to do than against stall, but packing a Mega Mawile counter on every offensive team isn't feasible, and checks... what checks? Lando-T works... once, maybe twice if it's doing absolutely nothing else throughout the match. Offensive Heatran has a nice chance of being OHKOed by a +2 Sucker Punch, as is Char-Y. Other than that... outplay Mawile. Good plan. I'm sure that'll be reliable in the long run.

TL;DR Mega Mawile is too stronk against basically every sort of team. Also too cute for OU. Ban pls.

Yeah, cause guys CTC and Jukain are complete nubs that have no experience. Amiright?

uright

 

[Cimson strikes]

1.) Game Freak hates Stall with the passion of [insert cliche metaphor here]. Be happy you got Mega Venusaur.
2.) Mega Mawile can sweep any kind of team after one boost.
3.) Mega Mawile has the bulk and typing to try again if it's forced out.
4.) "Megas are supposed to be strong" is a bad anti-ban argument.

If they stall with a passion why did they make stall pokemon for starters it makes no sense
2) it can but being realistic why would I not do anything about it? That ban argument makes no sense since your basically saying that i dont have any pokemon whatsoever if im saying dont ban it its clearlh because I can play around it
3) it lacks recovery it basically has one chance because if its forced to switch I know what set it has and can easily take care of it
4) it actually is a good anti-ban argument because thats how megas are supposed to be ,stronger than most non mega pokemon

 

[AM]

You didn't see my point AM145. I meant that the main argument against Mawile is the unwallability. You displayed the presence of MHerac MCham and MGarde w/e too. I will change my argument though, with the core statement still being no counters =/= broken. You even made examples for wallbreakers in OU, which show that being a good wb'er isn't broken. so why should mawile be so ? If we go against them like we are currently with mawile and did w/ Aegi THEN the metagame becomes too defensive. I'm theorymonning may be the next argument. I don't feel like I'm theorymonning. It seems to me like smogon is going on and on suspecting and banning things because they have no safe switchins. It will go on if you proceed like this. I can give you a list with the mons taking a +2 sucker and fitting perfectly into any offensive teams. Breloom, Lucario, Keldeo, Dragonite, Bisharp, Mega Gyarados, Terrakion, Mega Tyranitar etc. Any of which take a +2 sucker, are good in the current meta and can successfully revenge it after hitting it on the boost w/ the mon mawile boosts against.

Ok so let me elaborate on some of this. First off there are actually multiple aspects that contribute to M-Mawiles sheer power which includes typing, priority that benefitted from the Steel nerf, etc. You can go ahead and read through other posts to find those. Jukain's was pretty good at around page 2 or 3 explaining some of the traits that in combination of its initial power makes it broken. I can't speak for council or anything but pretty sure it's been almost a year since XY and might as well suspect all the stuff that is potentially borked now at this point in time, considering we have a clear example of what's actually potentially broken now. There was a good amount of stuff that needed to go anyways. Also my examples of wall breakers were just for argument sakes in regards to XYOU being too defensive, nothing more.

Also there's one huge hole and a minor one in the list you just provided of things that take +2 sucker punch. The minor one is that a lot of those don't want to be taking +2 anyways and in some cases like breloom, doesn't actually beat M-Mawile. The big hole in that argument is that Play Rough man handles all of them. When someone uses M-Mawile it's not just an auto SD all of a sudden. They can come in, hit hard, switch out, and proceed to find an opportunity to SD.

My last point is about this notion that suspects are going to be an ongoing thing. A mod can edit or delete this part of my post if it holds no relevance but there was a thread recently of someone suggesting to suspect Talonflame. It was locked so quickly no one could even post a comment, which happens pretty quick on topics such as those. This obviously shows that people have the common sense to know when it's time to call it quits and accept there is just stronger stuff in the tier. In a nutshell slippery slope arguments are dumb. If you were seriously opposed to this suspect as much as you are certain opinions just go for reqs. It's usually better in practice anyways.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

If they stall with a passion why did they make stall pokemon for starters it makes no sense
2) it can but being realistic why would I not do anything about it? That ban argument makes no sense since your basically saying that i dont have any pokemon whatsoever if im saying dont ban it its clearlh because I can play around it
3) it lacks recovery it basically has one chance because if its forced to switch I know what set it has and can easily take care of it
4) it actually is a good anti-ban argument because thats how megas are supposed to be ,stronger than most non mega pokemon

3) thing is on a pokemon like mawile it's WORTH sacrificing a pokemon with healing wish to recover it if you have to. This is what makes her deadly.. with no team support she's atleast killing something unless some heavy mindgames are played. With team support she can finish the job even when crippled.

4) no that is a bad arguement.. alot of megas are on par or not that strong as their none mega forms nerfing them.. (no items, etc.)

Mawile on the other hand, it's not nerfed in the slightest as a mega. Huge power makes up for any LO or choice item.. and I don't believe there is anything else it specifically did as a non mega anyway, and it certainly isn't a waste of a mega slot.

 

[Cimson strikes]

Your basically

3) thing is on a pokemon like mawile it's WORTH sacrificing a pokemon with healing wish to recover it if you have to. This is what makes her deadly.. with no team support she's atleast killing something unless some heavy mindgames are played. With team support she can finish the job even when crippled.

4) no that is a bad arguement.. alot of megas are on par or not that strong as their none mega forms nerfing them.. (no items, etc.)

Mawile on the other hand, it's not nerfed in the slightest as a mega. Huge power makes up for any LO or choice item.. and I don't believe there is anything else it specifically did as a non mega anyway, and it certainly isn't a waste of a mega slot.

Yes I understand but obviously thats an unrealistic situation(sorta) youre forgeting ofensive pressure exists latias is usually pressured to defog many times and bisharp,ttar are common pursuit users so its usually dead early to mid game and if not then the main reason you put latias in your team(SR weak pokemon) are basically almost dead weight and when played correctly vs them mawile-mega is more of a liability due to the fact that its pressured to set up and take couple of hits possibly taking her out while latias will be taken out
4)also thats really only chomp because it looses its speed tier( not sure about the other megas)

 

[Shounen]

Yeah, cause guys CTC and Jukain are complete nubs that have no experience. Amiright?

The test literally just started and just because someone doesn't have reqs doesn't mean we should automatically dismiss their opinion.

Only ~75 people vote anyway, so should we just ignore the people who didn't ladder regardless of the legitimacy of any points they make?

No, of course not CTC (#East :D) and Jukain but a good percentage of the people who are arguing have barely any credibility. Not to mention, you're pointing out an exception not a rule. And I agree with what you said that everyone can opinionate because the test just started yeah, but you should be thinking out your posts and not arguing w/ others as to not make this place a shitstorm.

 

[New Light]

Can we please stop with this Slippery Slope bullshit? It's a logical fallacy and I'm tired of hearing it very time we test something.

At this point I wish the original posts of these suspect threads would define the slippery slope and tell people not to use it because it seems like half of the anti ban arguments end up being slippery slope, even for suspects where there's plenty of room for legitimate anti ban arguments.

 

[Killua kun]

Finally it was the turn of mawile!
My opinion is that deserves to be uber instantly. There is no pokemon that might come upon him with sicurity.
The opponent puts mawile, will be the Sword Dancer or subpuncher? If is sword dancer has fire fang? Now let's calculate how much take most bulky of Pokémon metagame

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 588-692 (152.3 - 179.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 320-380 (90.9 - 107.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 178-211 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 247-291 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Now people are fed up of thinking to his counter and plays of revengekill, putting pokemon that resist sucker punch as specs keldeo. In any case, perhaps the only one who can get into it is impish megavenusaur, but not always you can play MVenu.

 

[Cimson strikes]

Well IMO everyone thats saying not to ban it(especially me) is probably because with the ban of aegislash there really wont be bulky offensive steel types I mean honestly bisharp and exca will need fo be AVto take special hits that aegislash and mawile(because of its typing) could confortably take but if aegi were still here then most if not all HO players would agreed to banning it, it just sucks a lot that HO is basically getting nerfed one by one if they somehow decide to bring aegi back than definately ban mawilite idk though just give me your opinion on this please

 

[Tyrant laharl]

Mega mawile is, to be completely honest, completely and utterly broken, and its unbelievable all the arguments against it I've heard. First off this whole "let the meta settle" argument is bullshit, and we shouldn't stop pumping out fast suspects. Waiting a few weeks wasn't going to change absolute jack shit unless somehow arcanine jumps up to S Rank within that time. Also, you guys against the ban seem to be just sitting around complaining instead of actually trying to get reqs. I mean for Christ sakes its just a suspect If you don't want it banned than just prove its fair instead of complaining about smogon being the devil or saying stupid shit like we are testing latis next.

now onto mega mawile, to be plain and blunt, unlike aegislash, mega mawile just straight forces uncompetitive 50/50's just off it's sheer power. There is literally NO skill involved at all. To top it off mega mawile shreds every team type thanks to its retardedly high power (focus punch hits harder than mienshaos HJK and sucker punch hits as hard as dread plate bisharps) as well as having the literal best typing in the game with intimidate and 125 defense. I mean shit, I never saw low HP stopping skarmory, rotom, or even recover deoxys D from being bulky.

TL:DR this pixie needs to GTFO

 

[Deaga]

Can we please stop with this Slippery Slope bullshit? It's a logical fallacy and I'm tired of hearing it very time we test something.

It IS turning true this generation though. Every single suspect in XY has been banned so far and it looks like Mawile is also doomed to be kicked out of the game. Next we ban Charizard X, then Thundurus and finally Landorus, I guess.

 

[QuickBH]

Mega Mawile is broken not because it's a strong as hell wallbreaker, but because it forces people to run WoW on any team just to check the SD SET so they don't get completely swept by it since it can literally pick and choose it's own counters. Then the Sub Punch set comes in and then WoW becomes ineffective and boom there's your Heatran dead. I mean, just being a lure to kill one niche thing is fine, but when you have as much attack as Mega Mawile, you can deal 70% to anything in offensive teams with just one play rough and add that with priority Mega Mawile is too damn strong. Doesn't help it can set up on nearly any physical attacker, either. BAN.

 

[Cimson strikes]

Well if they ban mawilite after it and charizardite-X the meta will proly settle since thundy and lando arent really ubers material anymore (charX is pretty easy for stall teams so proly after the sad mawilite ban will the metagame finally settle

 

[yamb]

It IS turning true this generation though. Every single suspect in XY has been banned so far and it looks like Mawile is also doomed to be kicked out of the game. Next we ban Charizard X, then Thundurus and finally Landorus, I guess.

Everything has been banned so far (except Deo-S when it first went up for batch suspect) because it was either something that had been banned before, a part of the new wave of power creep that gen 6 ushered in, or a strategy that required a copy-paste team from an RMT thread to function. A lot of the stuff that's been banned so far can be compared to the Dec 30th bans back in Gen 5 OU, the only difference is how they were suspected. Aegislash was the only one I could have seen going either way so far.

https://www.smogon.com/tiers/ou/ban_history

 

[Parker.]

Okay, those saying Sucker Punch can be "easily played around" are completely wrong. Simply put, to faint a Pokemon, you have to damage it. Mawile is immune to Toxic, meaning that if your Wisp user has fainted, the ONLY way to kill it is to attack it. Sucker Punch coming from base 259 attack hurts! And how are you going to play around it? Substitute? Roost/Recover? Plus, you actually have to switch in and take a hit from said 259 attack. Stop saying that it's easy to play around, because it absolutely destroys multiple playstyles. It doesn't hurt to have the legitimate BEST typing in the game.

 

[badabing]

imo the only don't ban argument even worth addressing is the "no counters =/= broken"
let me just say that when a mon at that power level has solid typing + intimidate, as well as sd and access to buffed priority, you have something that can p easily find a window to force gamebreaking plays. mons that typically fall into this category are more punishable, not as complete with regards to switchability, or have little to no sweeping potential, pretty significant tradeoffs that prevent many from seeing standard play. these are all key features in determining actual predators that can impose themselves on games as opposed to simply being a threat every now and then in certain matchups if a nigga can groove some volturn. mawile is significantly advantaged in all these categories to an unprecedented degree with its only real flaw being the sucker 5050 which is often dealt with in lose-tie scenarios weighted in their favor in the first place. it's not like there are a ton of viable resists to it either and mawile certainly has the coverage to dispose of them. so ya.

ban from the H00DED 0NE

edit: i guess it was to be expected that this particular suspect would have every nigga and his kid brother jeffrey scrambling for the ti-94 plus silver edition, but i think its been somewhat firmly established this fairy is more than capable of dishing out a backhand a la dwayne johnson in "The Game Plan" so lets move on to other points, eh?

 

[Killua kun]

Anyway besides its trait that maximizes his offensive statistics, which makes it uber is the fact that sucker punch or make neutral damage knoff entire metagame except dark, which is hit by rough play. as a result there is a way to stop it at 100% because it has the only counter is to understand before his set and then revengekill. The only downside is that the speed (50 basis), then the only useful son revengekiller those that have resistance to dark (except for landorus-t) and have a decent power base move to hit it.

 

[Sevifar]

Yep, Mawile is doomed.

The SubPunch set is what pushes it over the edge, imo. It can setup with its good bulk + typing, and once a sub is up your unfortunate opponent will in the vast majority of cases lose a pokemon. Only a select few mons such the Grass/Poisons and a few other niche mons (Weezing) can actually switch in on it.

 

[Fuisonpower53]

So I have been looking at some cacls for mega ma wile and this monster should be banned

People think there are counters like arcanine. But what person is going to use at arcanine on a team its just not viable. Also when building a team centerlized around mawile a person will usually make sure that it can get rid of things that could killing mawile. It doesn't have any counters. (Remember a counter is something that you can switch take a hit, take another hit and proceed to severely damage or K.O. It. A check is something that can switch in after a pokemon dies or volt turns and will force it out) You'll most likely end up sacking a pokemon figuring out what set its running. I would ban this because lack of counters and because of its good defenses and sky high attack.

 

[Fuisonpower53]

I don't know, maybe it's because they were OP as shit? It's ten months into the gen and ONLY JUST NOW are we suspecting the mon with 259 base attack, Fairy/Steel typing, Swords Dance, Sucker Punch and 50/125 physical bulk.

There's no slippery slope. There's just power creep.

259 is insane attack stat and will do heavy damage to whatever poke switches in

 

[adamsoreos]

Why is everyone talking about stall-breaking Skarmory/Chansey and a possible suspect of Charizard-X?

Let's get back on topic.

Mega-Mawile, although a massive threat that no one wants to switch into, is NOT worthy of a ban.
Now before you go and think "Well, nothing wants to switch into an attack" you must also think of how you can play mind games with your opponent using a Mawile.
Expecting an SD or a Substitute rather than a sucker punch, one can attack a Mawile rather than just switch out while praying that it will attack or not.

This topic delves into the whole 50/50 debate. Essentially the point of Mawile's priority move Sucker Punch is a 50/50, and that is what makes it a risk-reward move.

Sucker Punch is standard on every Mawile set, so you can almost guarantee that as long as you have something that can take at least a Sucker Punch and hit back hard, it will be guaranteed to end Mawile's reign of terror.
Ex. Greninja, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Garchomp, Keldeo, etc.

Will-o-Wisp is common and even Scald and Lava Plume carry the chance to burn. Although stall complains about this, that is the point of Mega-Mawile and other Megas such as Heracross, Medicham, and Gardevoir.
IT IS A STALLBREAKER/WALLBREAKER.
It was meant to hit hard.

Plus, Mawile's speed and bulk are god awful and merely adequate. Nothing too phenomenal in the regards of taking hits and being phased out if it must. Sucker Punch further increases the paranoia of players using Mawile as they are uncertain of a status move, attack, or simple phasing.

Honestly, I just think that Mega-Mawile is overrated.
It is ridiculously strong yes, but nothing that can't be handled by the current meta.