Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Karxrida]

Rofl how are they dead weight against offence, they both can take some insane hits and KO back. Im not sure what OU you're playing buddy. And rocks beat zard x, it must be bad. Seriously, stuff beats celebi like zards and bisharp, but it beats a lot and provides really good utility, its easily deserving of B.

They're easy as fuck to revenge kill and might not even get an opportunity to do anything against super aggressive players. Offense can and will sac something to deal with you so getting one kill doesn't really mean much.

BTW I never said Celebi was unviable, just that B was too high.

 

[Jacks0n]

They're easy as fuck to revenge kill and might not even get an opportunity to do anything against super aggressive players. Offense can and will sac something to deal with you so getting one kill doesn't really mean much.

BTW I never said Celebi was unviable, just that B was too high.

Seriously, its tanking a keldeo hydro pump, lando i epower and thundies tbolt. How is that dead weight. Super aggresive players would need to bring in a physical attacker, and they cant straight away do that, or theyll get KO'd by hyper voice. Im not saying there really good against offensive, they are best at smashing defensive teams, but they still put in work against offense.

Also please explain why celebi doesn't deserve B. I can say Zard deserves A-, but I need actually reasoning. If you don't think something doesn't deserve to be were they are, then explain why. Because im sure most agree its B material, at least good players.

 

[Karxrida]

Seriously, its tanking a keldeo hydro pump, lando i epower and thundies tbolt. How is that dead weight. Super aggresive players would need to bring in a physical attacker, and they cant straight away do that, or theyll get KO'd by hyper voice. Im not saying there really good against offensive, they are best at smashing defensive teams, but they still put in work against offense.

Also please explain why celebi doesn't deserve B. I can say Zard deserves A-, but I need actually reasoning. If you don't think something doesn't deserve to be were they are, then explain why. Because im sure most agree its B material, at least good players.

Mega Gardevoir doesn't like random Physical Thundurus or U-turn Landorus, just saying. You also forget that Thundy has Nasty Plot and Lando has Calm Mind.

Celebi has bad or extremely shaky match-ups with everything in S and a ton of A+ stuff. Being weak to everything in S is a good enough reason, but losing to Bisharp, Lando-T, Mega Scizor (who can now run Bug Bite with Aegislash gone), Mega Gyarados, etc. seals the deal.

 

[Ropeburn]

Analytic Life Orb hits are really nice to land, but Starmie just doesn't have the killing power to finish off things afterwards, from what I've been experiencing. It forces switches while offering Offensive options and is a quick Rapid Spinner, but it's a new gen: we have Excadrill, Mega Blastoise, Defog and Greninja. Starmie's in that weird place where it's a slower, weaker Greninja with Rapid Spin and a mediocre typing. (Psychic is still a terrible typing even after the Aegi ban)

Honestly, removing Hazards isn't as hard as it used to be. Starmie fulfills a nice niche but I don't feel like it should be going any higher than C+.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

I said it before and I said it again: Starmie should stay C+

Aegislash wasn't its main problem. It could theoretically 2HKO it with Analytic HPump. However, here are Starmie's real problems which prevent it in my eyes from moving up:

1. There are better offensive spinners, such as Excadrill and Mega Blastoise, who have higher firepower, can take hits easier thanks to their excellent typing / bulk, and can actually, you know, SWITCH IN on the spinblockers to remove them. On top of that, Mega Blastoise has better coverage and isn't Pursuit/Sucker Punch bait. (also, shut up about Starmie's speed, why not use Greninja at that point + a Defog user/one of these spinners, which you likely need anyway?)
2. The Defog buff really hurt Starmie. Latios, with his much better special bulk and access to Defog STAB Draco Meteor, is one of the main reasons Bisharp became so good in this generation. While Latios can attempt to play mindgames with it, Starmie gets buttfucked if Bisharp switches in, since Rapid Spin is a damaging move and Bisharp has almost no reason not to Sucker Punch. Also, Zapdos, Mandibuzz and Skarmory, with their much higher bulk and access to Roost, are much easier to switch in than Starmie, not to mention these things counter many dangerous threats: Zapdos can check Landorus, Thundurus and Mega Scizor, Mandibuzz wipes the floor with Bisharp and Breloom, while Skarmory can wall Mamoswine, Breloom, Bisharp, Tyranitar, Mega Mawile and Mega Pinsir.
3. Greninja is another thing you should keep in mind when considering Starmie. Greninja is faster and stronger than Starmie, since it gets STAB on all of its attacks and has (slightly) higher Special Attack. The only perks Starmie has over Greninja are Rapid Spin, Thunderbolt and Recover.
4. Starmie has 4MSS. It can't run Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Psyshock / Rapid Spin / Recover at the same time. Without Thunderbolt, it has no hopes to break through (Mega) Gyarados and Azumarill. No Ice Beam means your Starmie wouldn't be able to deal with Thundurus, Landorus, Dragonite and Lati@s. No Psyshock? Mega Venusaur stomps you. Recover would be nice to use since it could heal up while the opponent's spinblocker or wall switches out or uses a status move, which Starmie can cure by simply switching out if it has Natural Cure. No Rapid Spin? Why not use Greninja?
5. Starmie is Pursuit bait, has crappy bulk, can't switch in on anything and its base 100 Special Attack isn't that great anymore with this power creep.

 

[TheTraininator]

So remember when the Charizard-Y set with Will-O was brought up? Well I've been using it extensively, and suffice it to say it's good. I mean, reeeeally good. Probably better than its normal set. I mean, even without Special Attack investment Fire Blast still OHKOs Landorus 100% of the time without the need for hazards, a Pokemon with 89/80 natural bulk, so that goes to show it still really freaking hurts. It also can sneak in surprise burns on things like Azumarill and Mawile and outright Roost stall them. Oh, and Wisp Zard Y is the best Mawile counter, by the way. If you switch it into Mawile as it Swords Dances and it Sucker Punches you... Zard Y doesn't give a shit, because you can use Will-O-Wisp and burn it and avoid all damage in the process, a trick you can also do with Bisharp. You also resist all of Mawile's other moves, so you can keep clicking Roost and not have to worry about Sucker Punch at all. In sun and with a burn, max attack Azumarill only does a maximum of 28.5% with Waterfall, so you can easily alternate between Roost and Solar Beam. I honestly think that Zard Y should be moved to A+ again for this set alone, as it packs much more longevity and increased utility while still retaining huge amounts of firepower. And no one expects it yet!

 

[Muk]

I'd like to point out that Starmie can also run a bulky Reflect Type set (Reflect Type/Scald/Recover/Rapid Spin) to avoid being Pursuit trapped by Bisharp, Tyranitar, etc. I haven't used it myself, though, so I can't really comment any further.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

The description of C rank:
Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

- Starmie is a bit outclassed by Excadrill, Mega Blastoise (btw please explain how is it "total ass") and Lati@s as an offensive hazard remover
- Starmie is badly outclassed by Greninja as a speedy Water-type special attacker
- Starmie is somewhat outclassed by Mega Blastoise as a bulky Rapid Spinner

Keep Starmie C+

I'd like to point out that Starmie can also run a bulky Reflect Type set (Reflect Type/Scald/Recover/Rapid Spin) to avoid being Pursuit trapped by Bisharp, Tyranitar, etc. I haven't used it myself, though, so I can't really comment any further.

Latias does that job better, since she has better typing (meaning it can switch into the Pokemon it checks) and is much bulkier.

 

[Worthlessnoob]

The description of C rank:
Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

- Starmie is a bit outclassed by Excadrill, Mega Blastoise (btw please explain how is it "total ass") and Lati@s as an offensive hazard remover
- Starmie is badly outclassed by Greninja as a speedy Water-type special attacker
- Starmie is somewhat outclassed by Mega Blastoise as a bulky Rapid Spinner

Keep Starmie C+



Latias does that job better, since she has better typing (meaning it can switch into the Pokemon it checks) and is much bulkier.

If anything, Blastoise is outclassed by Starmie as a bulky spinner. Blastoise has no recovery and has a hard time spinning because it's so slow. Starmie has longevity in the form of Recover and Natural Cure.

Blastoise is indeed garbage because you're are giving up your Mega Slot for a slow spinner that can't even heal itself. This compounded by the fact that you're almost forced to forgo defensive investment in order for your special attack to allow you to actually threaten spinblockers and other mons in general.

 

[Karxrida]

If anything, Blastoise is outclassed by Starmie as a bulky spinner. Blastoise has no recovery and has a hard time spinning because it's so slow. Starmie has longevity in the form of Recover and Natural Cure.

Blastoise is indeed garbage because you're are giving up your Mega Slot for a slow spinner that can't even heal itself. This compounded by the fact that you're almost forced to forgo defensive investment in order for your special attack to actually allow you to actually threaten spinblockers and other mons in general.

Recover eats up one of your coverage options (leaving you with Water STAB and one other one) and Natural Cure means you no longer have Analytic and can't nuke shit. Also bulky Starmie isn't bulky or strong.

LO dependency also makes you die very quickly when combined with an SR neutrality (22.5% health per spin) and potentially having to spin multiple times in one match. Getting a Ferrothorn thrown at you will cost you almost half your health just to spin once, and dying from any recoil prevents Rapid Spin from removing hazards.

 

[Jukain]

meh, mega blastoise isnt that bad. it's an excellent spinner as it beats a lot of srers 1v1 with decent power and bulk on top of excellent coverage. it can definitely deal more damage than starmie, boasting far superior coverage that allows it to keep off sr somewhat reliably. it's not excellent overall, but you guys are underselling it.

starmie is really good. fat bulky set is a reliable spinner and excellent keldeo counter for offensive/balanced teams, while analytic lo is basically like a slower (mostly irrelevant), weaker greninja with the same coverage that can spin. it's definitely nice to have a bulkier option than drill with reliable recovery. oh and you can reflect type if you wanna mess up bisharps and ttars. aegi was really the thing holding it down, without that it's much better at spinning and therefore much better. it will only get better once mega mawile, which is kinda annoying for it, leaves. b is a good place for it.

 

[Karxrida]

meh, mega blastoise isnt that bad. it's an excellent spinner as it beats a lot of srers 1v1 with decent power and bulk on top of excellent coverage. it can definitely deal more damage than starmie, boasting far superior coverage that allows it to keep off sr somewhat reliably. it's not excellent overall, but you guys are underselling it.

starmie is really good. fat bulky set is a reliable spinner and excellent keldeo counter for offensive/balanced teams, while analytic lo is basically like a slower (mostly irrelevant), weaker greninja with the same coverage that can spin. it's definitely nice to have a bulkier option than drill with reliable recovery. oh and you can reflect type if you wanna mess up bisharps and ttars. aegi was really the thing holding it down, without that it's much better at spinning and therefore much better. it will only get better once mega mawile, which is kinda annoying for it, leaves. b is a good place for it.

What spread does the bulky set use? Gengar might still be able to spinblock it if Starmie isn't invested in Speed or Special Attack?

 

[Jukain]

What spread does the bulky set use? Gengar might still be able to spinblock it if Starmie isn't invested in Speed or Special Attack?

i havent used it much, but you run speed for thundy. 4 spatk psyshock ohkoes gengar and iirc scald does to, or at least comes close. gar isnt spinblocking it.

 

[Karxrida]

i havent used it much, but you run speed for thundy. 4 spatk psyshock ohkoes gengar and iirc scald does to, or at least comes close. gar isnt spinblocking it.

Fair enough.

Running Reflect Type sounds kind of gimmicky to me, and not all Bisharp run Pursuit so you still might have to deal with a Knock Off or pray that you get a Scald burn if it used Swords Dance. I think ScarfTar outspeeds if you're only running enough for Thundy (yay phones and them hating on the Dmg Calc) and can do some serious damage with Crunch if they see your Lefties and think you're defensive.

 

[epicdrill]

Fair enough.

Running Reflect Type sounds kind of gimmicky to me, and not all Bisharp run Pursuit so you still might have to deal with a Knock Off or pray that you get a Scald burn if it used Swords Dance. I think ScarfTar outspeeds if you're only running enough for Thundy (yay phones and them hating on the Dmg Calc) and can do some serious damage with Crunch if they see your Lefties and think you're defensive.

Scarftar outspeeds 252+ Starmie if Scarftar is 252+, so not sure how that is different from any other Starmie set...?

 

[Numera]

The description of C rank:
Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

- Starmie is a bit outclassed by Excadrill, Mega Blastoise (btw please explain how is it "total ass") and Lati@s as an offensive hazard remover Only a bit. Exactly. There isn't a lot of competition like the C rank suggests as there are many legitimate reasons to run Starmie over all of these which I/other people have already listed. Can Excadrill check almost all rock setters? Can Latias? Can Latias remove hazards without ruining it's own? Ask yourself these questions.
I still see the others as potentially better spinners, but I don't see them to be superior 90% of the time as C Rank suggests.
- Starmie is badly outclassed by Greninja as a speedy Water-type special attacker Oh really? 100% outclassed by Greninja? Does Greninja have Rapid Spin now?
- Starmie is somewhat outclassed by Mega Blastoise as a bulky Rapid Spinner Not gonna argue here, but I will say Mega Blastoise can't fill Starmie's roll as a fast offensive Spinner as well as it. Starmie's bulky set isn't the only set. Another thing: Mega Blastiose takes up a mega slot. If I needed a bulky spinner I'd use Starmie to preserve my Mega slot to use another mega that could benefit my team further.

Keep Starmie C+



Latias does that job better, since she has better typing (meaning it can switch into the Pokemon it checks) and is much bulkier. Starmie can afford to run Reflect Type. When running Latias I normally can't fit Reflect Type on as I have to get rid of an incredibly useful move. I don't want to lose Dragon 130 Power STAB, I don't want to be walled by special walls and I DO NOT want to lose the ever so helpful Healing Wish.

Comments is bold.

Also Epicdrill, if Scarftar pursuits and Starmie doesn't switch, it lives, even if it isn't the bulky set.

 

[Cimson strikes]

hey can you guys fix the celebi and chesnaught links , when I click on them they send me to another pokemons analysis( cwlebi sends me to blissey's analysis and chesnaught to Ampharos' analysis) also idk but there more be more messed up links that may need to be fixed

 

[Nog]

also idk but there more be more messed up links that may need to be fixed

or just removed all together *-*

In regards to the Starmie debate:

- Mega Blastoise isn't ass so stop overreacting about that

- What spin blocks Starmie? What ghosts are relevant in OU? Gengar? It's out sped and OHKO'd, nice,,,

- Excadrill is Starmies only competition as an offensive spinner. It's too slow out of sand or without a Choice Scarf attached, using RS under sand wastes a turn you could be sweeping / wall breaking, locking yourself into RS on a scarf set sucks ass. Plus I'm tired of running Excadrill every time I need a spinner and Mega Blastoise fails to play at the level I need it to.

- Keldeo / Thundurus checks are hard to come by given their typing and stats, but Starmie does a bang up job given its current ranking

- Natural Cure is gold to an offensive Pokemon as any kind of status is a complete nuisance while Analytic is just a nightmare for a lot of teams currently. Illuminate sucks doe :[

- Bulky Reflect Type allows you to beat common Pursuit users like Tyranitar and Bisharp as well as trolling threats like Mega Char Y and Ferrothorn

The meta is much less hostile to Starmie now that Deo and Aegi are both gone (subsequently resulting in Bisharp decline in usage n_n) and it is well deserving of at least B rank. Lastly pls don't nom everything that Aegislash troubled now that it's gone. Give us some more goodies other than "Aegislash is gone so [insert Psychic type] is gawd". Thanks

 

[Albacore]

Another neat thing about Starmie that seperates it from Latis is that it actually deals with Pursuit trappers better.
Bisharp doesn't switch into it at all, since it's cleaned by its main STAB, Life Orb Hydro Pump, even without Analytic (unless it's an Assault Vest variant), while Latis have to run HP Fighting to KO Bish on the switch, and need to predict said switch.
Tyranitar also gets KO'd by Analytic Hydro Pump, something Latios can't even dream of doing, unless it's running a bulky spread in which case it's outsped and 2HKO'd anyway. So Starmie does have a good reason to be used over Latis, namely that the 2 relevant Pursuit users in OU can't reliably switch into it at all, and therefore, it is harder to Pursuit trap.

Oh, and obviously, Starmie is better on offensive teams that rely on keeping hazards up, for example, if they use a suicide lead. I'm not saying Latias and Latios aren't better hazard removers in most cases, but there are defenitely solid reasons to use Starmie over a Lati.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

- Starmie is a bit outclassed by Excadrill, Mega Blastoise (btw please explain how is it "total ass") and Lati@s as an offensive hazard remover Only a bit. Exactly. There isn't a lot of competition like the C rank suggests as there are many legitimate reasons to run Starmie over all of these which I/other people have already listed. Can Excadrill check almost all rock setters? Can Latias? Can Latias remove hazards without ruining it's own? Ask yourself these questions.

Actually, yes. Excadrill can check almost all the rock setters in the game: it OHKOes Tyranitar and resists Stone Edge, 2HKOes Ferro with a bit of prior damage (and resists Gyro Ball), smashes Clefable to pieces, OHKOes Heatran, Scarf variants kill Terrakion. Latias can't really, but with her amazing special bulk it can Defog against pretty much everything that doesn't have a STAB super effective attack.
Starmie loses to Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Clefable and Focus Sash Garchomp / Terrakion (although it leaves them at 1%).

- Starmie is badly outclassed by Greninja as a speedy Water-type special attacker Oh really? 100% outclassed by Greninja? Does Greninja have Rapid Spin now?

No it doesn't, but by that logic anything that gets a random support move is better than another Pokemon which does its job better, save for that move. Starmie is outclassed in this regard.

- What spin blocks Starmie? What ghosts are relevant in OU? Gengar? It's out sped and OHKO'd, nice,,,

Starmie actually loses to Gengar!

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 28 HP / 80 SpD Gengar: 224-265 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 300-354 (114.9 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

- Bulky Reflect Type allows you to beat common Pursuit users like Tyranitar and Bisharp as well as trolling threats like Mega Char Y and Ferrothorn

Outclassed by Latias.

Another neat thing about Starmie that seperates it from Latis is that it actually deals with Pursuit trappers better.
Bisharp doesn't switch into it at all, since it's cleaned by its main STAB, Life Orb Hydro Pump, even without Analytic (unless it's an Assault Vest variant), while Latis have to run HP Fighting to KO Bish on the switch, and need to predict said switch.
Tyranitar also gets KO'd by Analytic Hydro Pump, something Latios can't even dream of doing, unless it's running a bulky spread in which case it's outsped and 2HKO'd anyway. So Starmie does have a good reason to be used over Latis, namely that the 2 relevant Pursuit users in OU can't reliably switch into it at all, and therefore, it is harder to Pursuit trap.

Oh, and obviously, Starmie is better on offensive teams that rely on keeping hazards up, for example, if they use a suicide lead. I'm not saying Latias and Latios aren't better hazard removers in most cases, but there are defenitely solid reasons to use Starmie over a Lati.

How the hell does it deal with Pursuit trappers better??? Bisharp usually runs Sucker Punch, so it all comes down to 50/50, especially since Rapid Spin does damage. Focus Sash variants buttfuck it. Scarf Tyranitar will be looking to switch into Thunderbolt, Ice Beam or Rapid Spin and crap on your Starmie, not Hydro Pump.

Defensive Starmie is shit and outclassed by Mega Blastoise, who at least has excellent bulk, doesn't lose to Gengar and Chandelure (I suspect it can take a 4 SpA Scald from Starmie), can use either Foresight + Rapid Spin OR RestTalk, and is not Pursuit/Sucker Punch/Knock Off bait. (It should be noted that defensive M-Blastoise isn't that good either.)

 

[theV8man]

Actually, yes. Excadrill can check almost all the rock setters in the game: it OHKOes Tyranitar and resists Stone Edge, 2HKOes Ferro with a bit of prior damage (and resists Gyro Ball), smashes Clefable to pieces, beats Garchomp if it has an Air Balloon, OHKOes Heatran, Scarf variants kill Terrakion. Latias can't really, but with her amazing special bulk it can Defog against pretty much everything that doesn't have a STAB super effective attack.

Small nitpicks, but Exca doesn't beat Garchomp in a 1v1 situation even if it has air balloon. The only way this could happen is if Garchomp switches in on an earthquake, which it wouldn't do. Also, any Ferrothorn that runs Power Whip or Leech Seeds will beat Exca if at near full health.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Looks like I slightly overrated Exca's power. However, do note that AB Excadrill still beats lead Garchomp if it runs Swords Dance/Outrage/Earthquake/Stealth Rock.

 

[monte73]

Starmie actually loses to Gengar!

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 28 HP / 80 SpD Gengar: 224-265 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 300-354 (114.9 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 429-507 (163.7 - 193.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Numera]

Actually, yes. Excadrill can check almost all the rock setters in the game: it OHKOes Tyranitar and resists Stone Edge, 2HKOes Ferro with a bit of prior damage (and resists Gyro Ball), smashes Clefable to pieces, OHKOes Heatran, Scarf variants kill Terrakion. Latias can't really, but with her amazing special bulk it can Defog against pretty much everything that doesn't have a STAB super effective attack.
Starmie loses to Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Clefable and Focus Sash Garchomp / Terrakion (although it leaves them at 1%).



No it doesn't, but by that logic anything that gets a random support move is better than another Pokemon which does its job better, save for that move. Starmie is outclassed in this regard.


Starmie actually loses to Gengar!

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 28 HP / 80 SpD Gengar: 224-265 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 300-354 (114.9 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO



Outclassed by Latias.



How the hell does it deal with Pursuit trappers better??? Bisharp usually runs Sucker Punch, so it all comes down to 50/50, especially since Rapid Spin does damage. Focus Sash variants buttfuck it. Scarf Tyranitar will be looking to switch into Thunderbolt, Ice Beam or Rapid Spin and crap on your Starmie, not Hydro Pump.

Defensive Starmie is shit and outclassed by Mega Blastoise, who at least has excellent bulk, doesn't lose to Gengar and Chandelure (I suspect it can take a 4 SpA Scald from Starmie), can use either Foresight + Rapid Spin OR RestTalk, and is not Pursuit/Sucker Punch/Knock Off bait. (It should be noted that defensive M-Blastoise isn't that good either.)

I'm not saying Starmie is better than Greninja, it really isn't. Starmie can't do Greninja's role as well as Greninja can but has access to Rapid Spin, giving it a reason to be used over Greninja if you want Greninja's role but lack a spinner. Thus not 100% outclassed by Starmie.

Excadrill does not beat Garchomp seeing as Air Balloon is normally a bad item to use on Excadrill over LO or Scarf. It loses anyway unless Garchomp switches in on EQ. Excadrill has to rely on prior damage to beat Ferro, and does Excadrill even touch Lando-T? no. Starmie checks/beats 1v1 more Rocks setters than Excadrill. Just look at Skarmory ext.

Starmie (both 3 attacks + RS and Bulky + RT) doesn't lose to either of those sash leads 1v1 because it can outspeed, take a hit, kill with Rapid Spin if it decided to set up for some stupid reason, and recover back health. It just can't switch in anymore Reflect Type Bulky Starmie can Reflect Type Ferrothorn to prevent it from doing any real damage and just spam recover and PP Stall, so it technically PP Stalls it. When did Clefable start using rocks? Am I uninformed? I'm sure both the cleric and CM sets would MUCH rather be running other moves.

Starmie LOSES to Gengar? Psyshock.

 

[escarlata]

Actually, yes. Excadrill can check almost all the rock setters in the game: it OHKOes Tyranitar and resists Stone Edge, 2HKOes Ferro with a bit of prior damage (and resists Gyro Ball), smashes Clefable to pieces, OHKOes Heatran, Scarf variants kill Terrakion. Latias can't really, but with her amazing special bulk it can Defog against pretty much everything that doesn't have a STAB super effective attack.
Starmie loses to Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Clefable and Focus Sash Garchomp / Terrakion (although it leaves them at 1%).

You are way overselling Excadril lol
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 109-130 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 109-130 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 3 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
2HKO with a bit of prior damage? LOL. And it can just Leech Seed/Power Whip for fun. Not saying that Starmie wins, but Excadril doesn't.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def (standard support variant that actually carries SR) Tyranitar: 272-324 (67.4 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 306-362 (84.5 - 100%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 260-307 (64.5 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Excadril is only barely better than Starmie against support TTar

LOL since when does Clefable carry SR? and even so:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 212-251 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 260-308 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Nope Excadril doesn't do significantly better

And I like how you said Scarf Excadril kills Terrakion yet against Starmie it survives with Focus Sash. The double standard is strong with this one.

No it doesn't, but by that logic anything that gets a random support move is better than another Pokemon which does its job better, save for that move. Starmie is outclassed in this regard.

By that logic Latias is outclassed by Latios save for Healing Wish. (Hint: No it isn't). Besides, Starmie's job is a spinner that can clean up if needed; Greninja's job is a cleaner that cannot spin if needed. It's not even the same job, so they are barely comparable. And Latias/Latios doesn't outclass either Starmie, since neither of them has the power to actually stay in to clean up because of the nature of Draco Meteor.