Gen 6 np: XY Ubers Gengarite Suspect Test - In The Shadows [READ POST #71]

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Just out of curiosity, what are these checks you mention? A importable of your team that you used to ladder would also help abit with spreading your point. o-o

Despite people saying ubers is a banlist first, tier second, that is not the case as far as this subforum is concerned. The goal of the ubers metagame is the same as every other metagame, in the sense that we want the more skill based player to have a higher chance of winning. Whether it be a mon, move, or mechanic that makes a metagame uncompetitive, ubers will try its best to rectify that. As shown with previous suspects (testing age old clauses, testing swagger, etc) ubers is not afraid to divulge from age old thinking and do something new if the end result is a more competitive, skill based metagame. The fact that shadow tag is getting suspected shows that it was deemed uncompetitive enough in the eyes of hugendugen and presumably the rest of the ubers council, that gengarite and possibly shadow tag as a whole is a detriment of our ideal metagame. The suspect test and the suspect research tour is a way to show if that is truly the case. If shadow tag/gengarite is deemed uncompetitive then it'll be banned, if not then it'll stay unbanned. As long as it results in a better metagame, it should be done. And worst comes to worst and shadow tag was actually unrightfully banned, then I can't see the council not just revoking the ban if that's the case.
The checks i have used are Pursuit users like Mega-Scizor who can usually deal with it bar Will-o-Wisp/HP Fire variants and specially bulky Pokemon like Ho-Oh who can force it out/trade kills and if used on offense it is kind of a reliable way as it doesn't have many switch ins opportunities.
Anyway as i said i am not really that sure and on the fence on whether it should be banned or not and i'll certainly read this thread in its entirety before voting :/
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
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The checks i have used are Pursuit users like Mega-Scizor who can usually deal with it bar Will-o-Wisp/HP Fire variants and specially bulky Pokemon like Ho-Oh who can force it out/trade kills and if used on offense it is kind of a reliable way as it doesn't have many switch ins opportunities.
Anyway as i said i am not really that sure and on the fence on whether it should be banned or not and i'll certainly read this thread in its entirety before voting :/
Forgive me for not having a clue what standard mega zor runs, (i think it's fucking shit lol) but assuming it's standard 252hp/252+atk then we get this calc,
252 SpA Mega Gengar Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 320-380 (93 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
So with even the slightest amount of damage, zor gets ko'd and honestly, 7% of prior damage isn't asking for much. Of course this is hypothetical, but it does show that zor can most definitely not switch in safely on gengar so at best it's a soft check. Not to mention it has a high chance of getting 2hko'd by shadow ball/focus blast, one of which gengar will definitely run. So no, scizor cannot consistently deal with gengar without prior knowledge of its moveset, but by that time it'll have been Mevo'd and have presumably be a much larger threat than before. Though as for ho oh, I can't see gengar staying in on ho oh ever so that's kinda moot and if you use ho oh as your gengar switchin, then it'll just switch out after Mevo'ing and being a huge threat later on. That's like saying mewtwo is a solid check to gengar because it outspeeds and ohko's.


edit: Can't believe I forgot to mention this, but if zor comes in after gengar ko's something then gengar will have done its job of removing a key threat and that revenging it isn't a solid answer since this forces a 50-50 between bp/pursuit.
 
this suspect test was my first experience in xy ubers, so forgive me if anything I say sounds particularly wrong. others will probably have put forward their arguments more eloquently than I will. but mega gengar is a powerful, fast pokemon with an amazing movepool to compliment shadow tag - not only does it have great coverage options but access to both taunt + destiny bond is incredibly useful. it can pick and choose what pokemon it wants to trap, and use the appropriate coverage move. for example, should you want to facilitate an ekiller arceus sweep, you can run hp fire to pick off steel types such as mega scizor and skarmory. it also has brilliant typing (ghost/poison has unique resistances and a ground immunity before the mega evolution can be very helpful) to make the most of shadow tag.

for me though, what really pushes it over the line is destiny bond + taunt. this combined with shadow tag is so inherently broken - you have to guess whether your opponent will use destiny bond or taunt, and should you guess wrong, you lose a pokemon and potentially the battle.
 
this suspect test was my first experience in xy ubers, so forgive me if anything I say sounds particularly wrong. others will probably have put forward their arguments more eloquently than I will. but mega gengar is a powerful, fast pokemon with an amazing movepool to compliment shadow tag - not only does it have great coverage options but access to both taunt + destiny bond is incredibly useful. it can pick and choose what pokemon it wants to trap, and use the appropriate coverage move. for example, should you want to facilitate an ekiller arceus sweep, you can run hp fire to pick off steel types such as mega scizor and skarmory. it also has brilliant typing (ghost/poison has unique resistances and a ground immunity before the mega evolution can be very helpful) to make the most of shadow tag.

for me though, what really pushes it over the line is destiny bond + taunt. this combined with shadow tag is so inherently broken - you have to guess whether your opponent will use destiny bond or taunt, and should you guess wrong, you lose a pokemon and potentially the battle.
Umm you are arguing that mgar is broken which really doesn't matter since we are suspecting it based on uncompetitiveness
 

Lord Alphose

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Well, then I guess my question would be what you guys define as "uncompetetive?"

When I think uncompetetive, I think of situations when I have one or two Pokemon on my team solely devoted to countering a certain Pokemon. The point is, eventually I stopped worrying about Mega-Gengar entirely. There are many Pokemon in the tier that really were a much bigger problem than it.

I guess my question is, what are you defining as uncompetetive and why does Mega-Gengar fit to this?
 
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HeIIraiser

tough like igglybuff
I played ubers in the previous 4 hours to get reqs, so gonna share my thoughts:

Mega Gengar has two immunities, high stats, good speed, good and wide movepool, and with shadow tag it becomes very powerful. Mega Gengar is a fantastic suport pokémon, since you pretty much will kill what you are aiming to kill to make your late game sweep happen if you play correctly. And it also has fast Destiny Bond to get a cheap kill.

However, at the moment I am leaning towards do not ban for Gengarite. While mega Gengar certainly is powerful and centralizes the current uber metagame, Xerneas, Arceus, Mewtwo and other pokémon also do that (actually they centralize more). I mean, nothing counters Xerneas and 3 or less pokémons check it. Many good SPL uber players got late game swept by Xerneas in matches where they had arceus steel, mega scizor, klefki and/or aegislash in their team.

Let's be honest, Xerneas and Arceus will never be suspected. Ubers is not meant to be a stable tier and it will never be (xy ubers was even originally a ban list for xy ou and uber is a ou ban list in the past generations). From my personal experience as a bwouer, I can see that banning Gengarite in ubers would be like banning KyuremB in BW OU (the result, I mean). KyuremB destroys stalls and many bulky playstyles, but it doesnt do anything against offense. Banning gengarite is very biased, pretty much decreeing what is the "correct" playstyle in the tier (as in, "stall players" want to use Chansey/Blissey/Skarmory/Arceus-Fairy without being concerned about mega gengar).

I played more than 100 battles in the suspect ladder and got top100, and didnt let something important be trapped by mega gengar once (switching between 3 different teams). Team Preview is there to help you; if you see a Mega Gengar there and still let a key check to something in the opponent's team be trapped my mega gengar, its either the player's fault or the team's fault. It's easy not to lose to mega gengar teams if you have a generic solid offense team.

also, a good ubers formula for that worked for me is this one:

Xerneas (the Xerneas)
Mega Scizor / Klefki / Aegislash (the Xerneas check)
Mega Mewtwo Y / Mega Gengar / Mewtwo - only use normal Mewtwo if you picked Mega Scizor (the broken strong and fast support mate)
Dialga / LandorusT / Groudon / Deoyxs-S / Deoxys-D (the SR user)
Arceus-any-kind/set (the Arceus - its broken and can have surprise set factor)
Strong Kinda Fast and Strong Filler (Palkia, Hooh, Groudon, Zekrom, etc)

have fun.

tl;dr: do not ban gengarite.
 
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I thought about it and I'm concluding that I will vote do not ban. The reason is simply that I find the idea of a Pokemon being "too Uber to be Uber" disturbing. I feel that all the arguments for or against banning it - that it is uncompetitive, that it needs to take a turn to mega evolve, that it can run HP Fire to kill a Scizor that's trying to Pursuit it, etc - all kind of miss the point. Yes we have banned things like OHKO moves and Swagger, but a Pokemon? If this ban goes through and a player's favourite Pokemon is Mega Gengar, then there's literally no tier in which he can use his favourite Pokemon. I'd still consider a ban if Mega Gengar were so dominating that teams have to use it or lose, e.g. RBY Mewtwo. However according to the usage stats even at 1760 level Mega Gengar is less common than Xerneas, Kyogre, Groudon and Arceus; Xerneas in fact is close to twice as common as Mega Gengar. Clearly it's not the case that teams have to use Mega Gengar.

tl; dr: in this tier we take the most broken, most unwallable, most game-breaking Pokemon that GameFreak can come up with and deal with it. Do not ban Gengarite.
 
This is a pretty interesting suspect because in the end I think people will base their decisions on how they view Ubers as a whole (the old banlist vs. tier argument). If a tier above Ubers existed, I have a feeling that Gengarite or Shadow Tag would be banned with a large majority. Votes in this suspect will basically come down to personal visions of the ideal Ubers tier: is the ultimate goal balance or "the highest form of play?"

Admittedly, I'm a pretty inexperienced Ubers player (I pretty much learned the tier while getting reqs) but I can't see the logic behind banning Gengarite alone. If it's Shadow Tag that makes Mega Gengar "broken" or "uncompetitive", why not ban the ability as a whole?

Gothitelle is a formidable trapper as well and it even has a couple of key advantages over Mega Gengar. For one thing, it doesn't have to Mega Evolve to gain Shadow Tag, meaning that it can trap as soon as it switches in for the first time. On the other hand, a skillful player can switch to a Gengar counter before it Mega Evolves to force it out or kill it. Gothitelle can also carry a choice item to cripple opponents. As long as it's not played terribly, Goth is usually guaranteed one kill or cripple per match. Utilizing it in conjunction with voltturning or even the safe switches provided when a Pokemon faints makes choosing Gothitelle's victims much easier.

Overall, I can understand why some people are anti ban and I can see why others want Shadow Tag gone. What I don't understand is banning Gengarite alone when Gothitelle is just as potent a trapper and no less "uncompetitive" than Mega Gengar.
 
This is a pretty interesting suspect because in the end I think people will base their decisions on how they view Ubers as a whole (the old banlist vs. tier argument). If a tier above Ubers existed, I have a feeling that Gengarite or Shadow Tag would be banned with a large majority. Votes in this suspect will basically come down to personal visions of the ideal Ubers tier: is the ultimate goal balance or "the highest form of play?"

Admittedly, I'm a pretty inexperienced Ubers player (I pretty much learned the tier while getting reqs) but I can't see the logic behind banning Gengarite alone. If it's Shadow Tag that makes Mega Gengar "broken" or "uncompetitive", why not ban the ability as a whole?

Gothitelle is a formidable trapper as well and it even has a couple of key advantages over Mega Gengar. For one thing, it doesn't have to Mega Evolve to gain Shadow Tag, meaning that it can trap as soon as it switches in for the first time. On the other hand, a skillful player can switch to a Gengar counter before it Mega Evolves to force it out or kill it. Gothitelle can also carry a choice item to cripple opponents. As long as it's not played terribly, Goth is usually guaranteed one kill or cripple per match. Utilizing it in conjunction with voltturning or even the safe switches provided when a Pokemon faints makes choosing Gothitelle's victims much easier.

Overall, I can understand why some people are anti ban and I can see why others want Shadow Tag gone. What I don't understand is banning Gengarite alone when Gothitelle is just as potent a trapper and no less "uncompetitive" than Mega Gengar.
Both Mega Gengar and Gothitelle are very powerful and in my opinion, should have a ban....through a Shadow Tag Ban. The problem is Shadow Tag will not be suspected unless Mega Gengar is banned.
 

HypnoEmpire

Yokatta...
To be completely honest, I haven't really played Ubers until recently, but after seeing Mega Gengar in action, I think it's definitely ban-worthy. Now, the problem with Mega Gengar isn't the Pokemon itself but its ability (clearly), so most of my thoughts will be revolving around Shadow Tag. I don't think anyone can argue that Shadow Tag isn't a broken ability, but is it broken to the point that it needs a ban? I'm not really sure to be honest.

-You could double switch when predicting Mega Gengar to come in, but if they stay in with their Pokemon, your switch can be destroyed. This is essentially a 50/50- I've seen arguments similar to this, but I'm really not buying it. Mega Gengar isn't the only Pokemon that can create situations like this: look at Bisharp and Lati@s in OU. Bisharp could come in on your Lati@s and destroy it, so you can predict the switch by double switching into, say, Keldeo, but if they stay in with their, I don't know, Breloom, then Keldeo is destroyed by Bullet Seed. These 50/50's are generated throughout battle, so I don't really like arguments like these as they just show incompetence to me (sorry if I offended anyone, it wasn't intentional). 50/50 arguments for Scizor vs Mega Gengar are also very silly as basically any Pokemon can run Hidden Power Fire, so I'm not really sure why Mega Gengar is special in this way.

-It's uncompetitive- Okay, this is one of the best arguments to me. I know their usually more in-depth than that, but I'm just keeping it simple because it's less work for me. Gengar's best set (to me anyway), includes Substitute, Disable, Perish Song, filler, and this is the most broken one in my eyes. It can trap defensive Arceus forms, among other things, extremely well as it can Substitute on them, scout for an offensive move, Disable, and go from there. However, there are obvious ways to get around this. Running two offensive options on them, like Psychic and Judgement, is a really easy way to avoid this. If it's an extremely passive Pokemon like Blissey, then it can run Shed Shell. Obviously, offensive Pokemon don't really need to worry about sets like this. Going off of the uncompetitive portion, being unable to switch out sucks, but if you're not prepared for Mega Gengar by simply running a coverage move or running Shed Shell, then you're doing something wrong. Mega Gengar is obviously troublesome for Arceus-Grass, which some teams run for Kyogre, but I don't think Pokemon A making Pokemon B unviable is a good reason to ban Pokemon A. If Kyogre is troublesome, then run Arceus-Water or Gastrodon. I'm sorry your Arceus-Grass is less viable now, but if you want to keep using it, you have to keep in mind that Mega Gengar is around.

Okay, I finished my rant. If you have any conceding thoughts, I would love to hear them. :)
 
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Minority

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I mean, nothing counters Xerneas and 3 or less pokémons check it.

besides, this is the generic ubers formula for winning all your battles:

Xerneas (the Xerneas)
Mega Scizor / Klefki / Aegislash (the Xerneas check)
Mega Mewtwo Y / Mega Gengar / Mewtwo - only use normal Mewtwo if you picked Mega Scizor (the broken strong and fast support mate)
Dialga / LandorusT / Deoyxs-S / Deoxys-D (the SR user)
Arceus-any-kind/set (the Arceus - its broken and can have surprise set factor)
Strong Kinda Fast and Strong Filler (Palkia, Hooh, Groudon, Zekrom, etc)

have fun.

tl;dr: do not ban gengarite.
There are true Xern counters they just tend to suck outside of stopping Xern, and there are way more than 3 Xern checks lol.

Also I don't care if your generic Ubers formula is a joke or not but I hope even OU players understand that such a simplistic formula will never result in "winning all your battles". Believe it or not Ubers is not so simplistic and your apparent lack of respect for the tier while posting about a major decision is sickening. What was the point of that "formula" part as it had nothing to do with this suspect outside of showing that your definition of a generic Ubers team always has Xern and Arceus but does not always have Mega Gengar, something still irrelevant entirely.

In general the comparisons to other S Rank mons needs to stop. Gengar is being suspected because of Tag, not because of how centralizing it is. In short it is because Tag eliminates the player from being able to switch. If this elimination of player choice is enough to be considered "uncompetitive" then it should be banned; that is what we are discussing.
 
I have used sub disable perish song and protect gengar to decent success against decent players. It takes choice locked slower pokemon like nothing and perish traps ttar switch ins. Not to mention it single handedly destroys most stall.
 

Minority

Numquam Vincar
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The only common choice mons slower than Gengar though are Specs Ogre and CB Ho-oh, and Gengar cannot switch into either meaning that it has to come in when something is killed and already be Evo-ed. Sub Disable can work but in my general experience it isn't all that fantastic, I prefer stuff like stall-two and gliscor to handle stall.
 

8-BIT Luster

Completely Unviable
Here's my input.
While i think this suspect isn't addressing the root of the issue (Shadow tag, and Gothitelle at that,) I think Gengarite shouldn't be banned. Basically, it can pick what it wants to take out and take it out, but it isn't really that simple. One issue with Gengar is its pre-mega form. Unlike Gothitelle, Gengar is stuck with Levitate its first turn. This not only allows it to be outsped and OHKO'd by Jolly LO EKiller, but also allows the opponent a turn to send in their check/counter. It also is outsped by literally every usable scarfer in the meta (bar TWave/Webs/Tailwind,) which forces gar out. Unless the opponent has a Chansey (but that's their fault for using chansey imo) or something that can't reliably do anything to him, Mega gengar cannot switch in. This means that you have to come in after one of your Pokemon has been taken out. In addition, one of the arguments against Gengarite is that "You can just click Destiny Bond and it's over." Mega Gengar actually requires some skill to use.

However, I do see the other side of the argument. Shadow Tag prevents switching unless you have a pivoting move like U-Turn, a phazing move like Roar (But in Mgar's case, a smart player would taunt,) or a ghost-type. If you have a ghost out, and the opponent has a Mega gengar out on that, that's their fault. Mega Gengar (I really don't like not just saying Shadow Tag) also can switch out whenever it wants, making sets like Perish Song (although they kinda suck ass) pretty deadly. What also sets Mega Gengar apart from other Shadow Tag users is its speed and movepool. Base 130 Speed is no joke, outspeeding everything in the tier not named Deoxys or a scarfer. It also has Taunt and Destiny Bond, forcing the opponent to use an attack and subsequently get KO'ed. Simply Stalling out the DBond isn't easy either, as 170 Special Attack and amazing coverage moves could mean that Gengar might come out alive and you won't.

While Shadow tag Mega gengar limits switching and, with a little skill by the user, take anything it wants (within reason) down with it, I don't think it is uncompetitive. I vote that is should not be banned, but as with all suspects, the ban would not be definite. Haruno made a good point in saying that if shadow tag doesn't turn out to be as uncompetitive, there's no reason for the Ubers Council to not unban it.

Other notes:
-Mega Gengar will still be usable. This is not an ousting from the whole of Pokemon Showdown! It can still be used in custom games, (balanced) Hackmons, Doubles, and the like. If it does get banned and you like Mega Gengar so much, try out another tier and broaden your horizons.
-You can't compare Mega gengar to other S-Rank Ubers, purely because they function so differently. gengar is a trapper, while the others set up and attempt to sweep the whole team.

Will edit later.
 
I don't know why you guys call it the sub/disable set. It's the famous perish trap set that might switch d bond with disable.
lemme see if anyone saved replays from my battles. You can try it yourself against stall/balance its usefulness is obvious against those play styles.
Edit: Even though I believe this is the unhealthiest mega gengar set, it just acts as a lesser goth that doesn't die to ttar.
 
besides, this is the generic ubers formula for winning all your battles:

Xerneas (the Xerneas)
Mega Scizor / Klefki / Aegislash (the Xerneas check)
Mega Mewtwo Y / Mega Gengar / Mewtwo - only use normal Mewtwo if you picked Mega Scizor (the broken strong and fast support mate)
Dialga / LandorusT / Deoyxs-S / Deoxys-D (the SR user)
Arceus-any-kind/set (the Arceus - its broken and can have surprise set factor)
Strong Kinda Fast and Strong Filler (Palkia, Hooh, Groudon, Zekrom, etc)

have fun.

tl;dr: do not ban gengarite.

damn its really cool that an ou player thought out a formula on how to win all battles after playing on the ladder for a couple of hours. defo news to me that you need a mewtwo on every team, that groudon isn't a viable sr user, that you don't need an ekiller check etc. it really must mean i suck cause god damn i couldn't figure that out in my 2+ years of playing ubers

edit: regarding psong gengar, it does have its merits but i don't love it. sub on that set is the real savior as it prevents you from being pursuit trapped by mega evolving, which is always nice. you have a pretty difficult time stalling out more than one wall, however
 

Ares

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So after reading through all 11 pages of this thread skimming through some of the longer posts, and from my laddering experience while getting reqs, I think its finally time to jump into this discussion.

From what I can tell the core of the ban argument is that Mega-Gengar is uncompetative (not overpowered, not centralizing) and so when looking at whether or not to vote ban that is what I should be focused on.

First I'm gonna talk about my ladder experience and how that is going to affect my vote. As a first time Ubers player jumping into a new tier I started off by battling all of the weird non viable shit from about 1000-1300. From there I started running into more serious teams. Once I noticed that people started using actual Ubers teams I began to keep an eye out for Mega Gengar. Out of the 79 games I played in Ubers I think I only saw Mega Gengar a total of maybe 10 times out of those games. And out of those 10 times I feel like only one person actually used Mega Gengar to its full potential. Everyone else accomplished little to nothing while using it. For another 15-20 games I saw Gothitelle, and about half those people used it well and were able to trap a threat and take it out without being massively damaged and an easy revenge kill. From what I could see Gothitelle was a much bigger problem than Mega Gengar. I myself wanted to try out Mega Gengar so I found a team which had it on it. I do not believe I used it to the best of its abilities but what I can say is that it took a lot of skill to pull off the mega evolution and come back in and trap something that I needed gone. Usually I either death foddered it off or took out something that was inconsequential to the outcome of the match. And while 79 games is no where near enough, I think I was able to grasp a basic understanding of how the ladder works. (On the other hand competitive play is another story and I have no experience in Ubers competitive)
The team I used can be found here thanks to Level 56 for the team.

Moving on to what I think about Mega Gengar and its ability shadow tag. I think that on paper it sounds like an amazing pokemon with the ability to trap and take out key pokemon to open a sweep for something on your team. However in my short experience the turn it takes to mega evolve plays a crucial role in how M-Gengar affects the rest of the match. The team I was using consisted of getting as many entry hazards up as possble and utilized two scarfers. This ment that switching was limited for my opponent and the turn that they were able to switch in and mega evolve they were down to 60% more or less, then since I could switch before they had mega evolved I was able to switch into an appropriate check and either force the switch or kill them. While not every team uses hazards I can say the hampering the opponents ability to switch in Mega Gengar and get the evolution off is something that Gothitelle doesnt have to worry about. And thats one of the biggest issues I have with suspecting Mega Gengar is that first turn that you come in to mega evolve makes all the difference in the world. Also safely switching in Mega Gengar is another problem I have with it, because unless you make a good double or fodder off something its frail defenses (by Ubers standards lol) mean that it isnt gonna take a hit to well on switch in. If you fodder off something to get the switch in then that is the opponents fault for allowing themselves to be caught in a situation where a primary revenge killer is being trapped by Mega Gengar. Yes you have to think a lot harder about a situation before you revenge kill something, I feel like this creates a lot more skill as opposed to being uncompetative because it causes you to have to evaluate situations a lot more carefully. (If this were OU I would say ban it in a heartbeat, but its not and it gets to the reasons for a ban in Ubers). So while on paper Mega Gengar might seem like this incredibly uncompetative pokemon, in practice its not in my little experience.

So as of right now I'm against banning Mega Gengar. People are saying that if Mega Gengar isnt banned then Shadow Tag as a whole wont be suspected. Even though I'm voting no ban on Mega Gengar I think that there should be a suspect test on STag. Yes I know that by banning STag that Mega Gengar is banned, but I also feel like the argument that banning a pokemon sets a precedent in Ubers is also a valid argument and by banning STag it addresses the concern with Mega Gengar without having to directly ban a pokemon from Ubers.

Feel free to reply with counter arguments trying to change my mind, the vote is still a ways a way and I could be swayed to vote ban.
 

Focus

Ubers Tester Extraordinaire
I really hope that we test Shadow Tag on its own once this test is concluded, whether or not Gengarite is banned.

I haven't had much of an issue with Gengarite in my testing so far, certainly not enough to want to ban it from Ubers. I'm not sure exactly what others mean by "uncompetitive", but the general gist seems to be that an uncompetitive element of the game makes high-level play less enjoyable or less rewarding than it should be. There is certainly an argument to be made that greater reliance on team matchups, more 50/50 situations, and often no option to switch due to Shadow Tag might make the current metagame less competitive than the metagame with Gengarite banned. I'm not denying that. I just not convinced so far that the improvement to the metagame a ban would bring would outweigh the incremental step away from the core principle of Ubers as the metagame with as few bans as possible. That's where my mind is now, at least.

Shadow Tag itself on the other hand, well... we'll get there when we get there. If I vote to not ban Gengarite, it would be under the assumption that Shadow Tag is tested afterwards. I'm not that into tactical voting.
 
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Personally, I feel Shadow Tag could use the suspect more than Gengarite in the first place, and I feel maybe both deserve the ban.

The ability of any pokemon, not just mega Gengar, to completely cut off team support and remove a counter to powerful sweepers is deadly in any meta. You simply can't have multiple counters for every pokemon, you only get 6. Now, think about the standard Ubers team, which has at least 2 of Xerneas, Kyogre, and Arceus, a couple defensive pivots, maybe a suicide setup lead, probably at least one other sweeper that could tear a big hole when left unchecked. Take out a physically defensive mon, EKiller (for example) can walk all over your team now, especially if your Arceus is specially focused. Or maybe it is one of the big three (is there a name for these? I guess I'm not experienced enough to know) now the handful they prevent from being offensive threats.

However this only works given the guarantee that these pokemon can reliably get the kill. Gengar? Maybe, but too many people have tried to bring it out too soon and I can get a strong enough hit on it when it mega's. I'm playing against people low on the ladder so most are inexperienced enough to know that gengar loses ground immunity on mega and Landorus-T can deal with it at least a turn before they see it coming, or they don't have D-Bond on it. I'm not certain.

To be honest, Gothitelle has had more success against me, getting a free pick about 60% of the time. Sometimes that pick isn't even something useful, but other times it was my Kyogre, or something worse, and there was practically nothing that I could do about it.

Is it wholly unfair? Maybe. Maybe I'm just bad and deserve to be wrecked when I let something get taken out by that. It sure as hell is annoying to play against though, because it feels like all momentum is gone, and restoring it is pure luck.
 
Yeah Shadow Tag is definitely the main issue here. Gothitelle is arguably a more effective Stagger than Mgar, simply because of it's ability to check and completely decimate a lot of mons without killing itself in the process.
 
Hello, I'm new to the forum but I've been playing Smogon for awhile now. I'm pretty close to making reqs and assuming that I do in time I will be voting not to ban. Honestly, yeah shadow tag is kind of broken along with taunt + destiny bond but it's certainly not impossible to beat and I was always under the impression that Ubers is not supposed to be stable and is where you can just play around with ridiculous broken stuff. Maybe banning it from Ubers tournament play is a better option? Just a thought. I got swept the other day by a bp team where a smeargle spammed minimize and I missed like 5 attacks in a row that would have KOed or 2HKOed if it was sashed. It's annoying sometimes but I think people just need to have a good sense of humor about it. I understand sleep clause and swagger ban, but banning a pokemon from Ubers is kind of depressing to me.
 

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I sure hope Hugen heavily moderates the vote thread and doesn't count all votes that have faulty logic in their paragraph (like we were promised). That way only like 20 votes will end up counting.

Also voting to ban Mega Gengar solely on the basis as to get a full Tag suspect is the most retarded thing since Geo-ing against a Klefki. If Goth is truly "uncompetitive" then it will come up for suspect on its own merits regardless of a decision on Mega Gengar; we should not ban something as a means to get at something else when we can just get at that something else in the first place. There is an obvious conflict of interest created with how this has all been set up and the existence of the TC badge doesn't help either since there are obviously OU players who don't give a damn about Ubers outside of getting one step closer to their badge. If we can come at this from the right angle then perhaps we can make the correct action, but until then no action should be taken.
 
I want to reinforce what I said about Gengar last time after playing on the ladder for longer and getting reqs; its frailty and having to mega-evolve before trapping are what keeps it from being un-competitive. I found the best tactic with Gengar is to play very aggressively. When there is the option of attacking or inflicting status/hazards I always went for the former. This is because 2 HKOing Gengar in its base form is really easy (even with the bulk investment) and can ruin the perish-song set. You only need to take around 60% of his health (which is easy to do when everything in Ubers hits hard) prior to mega-evolving for the that set to be unusable. This is because for that set to work you have to survive a hit while using perish-song and have enough hp to sub which won't be happening.

The taunt + destiny bond set is nasty, but risky. If you have managed to hit Gengar on the switch then it becomes 50/50 on whether you KO your opponent or not. If he taunts and you attack then your opponent loses a Mega, but if he uses destiny bond and you attack then he gets his kill. Its always worth remembering that there is a opportunity cost with using Mega-Gengar when there are many other great Megas. Therefore the mon Gengar takes out must be a very important member of the opponents team. If its not then the gain will not be worth the price.

As Gengar has a opportunity cost you must play well in order to set up the chance to catch and kill the core threat of your opponents team. This requires a advanced level of understanding of the opposing team and high level play to get your key kill. I don't know about you but that does not come across as non-competitive at all. People will have their own opinion on competitive, but in my mind there is nothing un-competitive about Gengar. If I get my key mon trapped then its well played to the other guy and I deal with it. Nothing I have heard on the pro-ban side has altered my opinion. Gengar is a high risk, high reward mon. Make a mistake and you have lost a Mega for nothing which is no small loss.

Now onto shadow tag itself its difficult to fully determine how broken it is when none of the pokemon that get it are OP. I have already done Gengar and we can agree that wob can be played around using Wil-O-Wisp and toxic. That leaves Goth who has poor bulk and terrible speed which means she will get hit twice and so often gets taken out before she can do anything.

The thing with shadow tag in general is that it does cause the opponent to play very carefully (with the greater risk being on the opponent and not the user) until the mon with the ability is removed. However unlike swagger, elevation and bp teams there are normal things you can do to reduce the hassle on your team such as U-turn/volt-switch, roar/dragon tail, using a ghost, baton pass, shadow tag and shed shell (ok not so great but its a option). That list may not be much but its way more then a double-teaming opponent who has got lucky and raked up lots of boosts. Its not a huge ask for your support mon to have one of these options is it? Have any of these these and shadow-tag is not a problem (including bp as long as you pass to a fast revenge killer if you have been hit with perish-song, or another ghost).


tl;dr neither Gengar nor shadow tag is broken.
 
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