Gen 6 np: XY Ubers Gengarite Suspect Test - In The Shadows [READ POST #71]

[Edgar]

I'm not going to post a long reasoning text because my english is not that good, I'm just posting here to point out most of you are overlooking the most relevant aspect of Mega Gengar: It takes one turn to have Shadow Tag.

That fact alone is very important, as it really differentiates M Gar from other Shaow Tag users, and should be one of the main topics on a discussion whether Mega Gengar is uncompetitive or not.

We are all aware that it takes one turn to Mega Evolve, if anything, I feel like a lot of people are understimating Mega Gengar's stats, they aren't any close to being bad. That "safe turn" may not be safe at all, it can come in in your below 50% Palkia (That is not difficult to accomplish when having the right teammate) and Sludge Wave it, Gengar's speed that turn (350) is still more than enough to outspeed not only Palkia but most of the metagame, its Sp.Atk increases to 439 that turn (Same as a Timid Kyurem-White), making it capable of breaking standard cores without having to use Destiny Bond due to its ridiculous coverage, Landorus-T is an obstacle for my Double Dance Groudon to sweep? Use Icy Wind/Hidden Power Ice and OHKO it! If already Mega-Evolved, check Ekiller with Focus Blast etc.. There are infinite examples of how Gengar's massive Sp.Atk and Speed can make really hard to deal with, to the point where it can escape from being checked lol. All these, and the fact that it removes switches from the game, makes me think it's beyond uncounterable, it can't be checked without you losing something important in return.

Now, to all the silly people that use prediction as an argument: A) You can't expect every player to predict correctly 100% of the time, especially if they are new players (not to mention the 50/50s) and B) It's not really fair to use that argument because Shadow Tag straight forces you to make aggresive plays and we know that doesn't work out every time.

Another thing I've seen a lot of people say: "Run a Pursuit trapper". Don't act like we haven't tried that yet. There was a time when pokemon like Scizor and Aegislash started running Pursuit because they wouldn't find Hidden Power Fire or Shadow Ball Mega Gengar, what happened? People caught on to that and started running both moves! Forcing a coinflip every time they faced lol. And Tyranitar, Focus Blast 2HKOs it, even if you're using Chople Berry the result will be determined by the same source, a 50/50, whether he's going to predict your switch and Pursuit, you stay in and 2HKO with Focus Blast or he's going to predict you to stay in and Crunch. What a great way to determine skill, coinflips!

My point is, I don't think you should call "competitive" something that is determined by coinflips and that the arguments presented by the anti-ban users just seem pretty ignorant to me.

 

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

I fear that inexperience / lack of knowledge will derail the topic and people will fail to realize why Gengarite is actually being reviewed here. Most anti-ban arguments are centered around this one ideology - "You can't ban things from Ubers". It's already been addressed by our older tier leader, Bojangles, that Ubers isn't the place where nothing is banned, at least not any more. Due to the retesting of clauses in Generation 5, Ubers became (in Bojangles's words) "The metagame with the least amount of bans possible". This already throws out the idea that you cannot ban something from Ubers, which from my experience in reading this thread and talking to those against this suspect, is the most common argument against it. Why let an old mentality make your decisions for you? Times change, metagames change. Even Ubers is no exception, you would be a fool to think that GF would never come up with a Pokemon/Ability/Item that is just too broken that it could even be called "uncompetitive", even by our very high standards.

I'm replying something 5 pages ago so sorry for that but after reading through all 10 pages I wanted to comment on this topic and this was the first post I found that sort of began centering on this point. But I wanted to take a look at this sentiment, the idea that we have a defined idea of what Ubers is. If there is one, then there's a lot of dispute about it. Enough so that I don't think we can just throw it around like it's a good argument: "a ban list with no bans (bar luck)" or "a tier with the fewest possible bans" The OP actually opens with

What makes this different from any of the previous clauses, like the Moody Clause or the Swagger Clause, is that we would not just be banning an ability or a move, but removing a Pokemon form entirely. With that in mind, I consider this the most important decision in Ubers tiering history and, as a result, don't feel comfortable making it alone. We will therefore be putting it to the Ubers community at large, through a suspect test.

As in it's up to us to decided. If there was some good strong definition of what Ubers is then why would Hugendugen be uncomfortable making the choice alone?

Gen 1 Ubers was totally a ban list. The game was literally just who can get their Mewtwo to sweep first/ hax into stoping a Mewtwo sweep. Mewtwo was absurdly and obviously more broken than anything else so it stood alone and the game was about it. From there more and more stuff and complexity got thrown in as each gen gives us its own set of powerhouse monster destined to be the favorite of every boy whose 10 years old at the game's release. Anyways 4 gens later there's enough stuff at Mewtwo’s level floating around that you can treat it like a tier. Certain things are totally centralizing and all but you can still get a lot of fun variety and alternative team builds that make the game more interesting and extend its enjoyable life time. So now 5 gens later we have Shadow Tag M-Gengar (and co.) A mechanic that is absurdly and obviously more broken then all the other broken stuff that's here. It's next level broken. But I 100% agree with shrang's sentiment that it's not strictly "uncompetitive" not anymore than Gen 1 Mewtwo was. Since after all you and your opponent BOTH can use it and similar to Gen 1 Mewtwo the person using it better wins. I haven't read or experienced anything that makes me feel otherwise. There's no luck involved using M-Gengar beyond the possible match up argument.

But there's a really obvious reason to hate on Shadow Tag. It ruins the "good thing" we had going in Ubers, the level of variety and fun and possible team archetypes that could viably win. Now we’re back to gen 1 Mewtwo who sweeps better only instead we now have who traps better (this is a disgusting oversimplification of modern Uber’s I know, but that actually just goes to show that what we have progressed to so far is still far superior to Ubers in its original state) For the last 2 or so gens people could take both stances on Ubers. It's a ban list and a tier. But now Shadow Tag M-Gengar stuck a big wedge between the ideas and we have to decide. We decide. There's no "Ubers is a ban list first" or "Ubers is a tier first" because if either of those things were true no one would have to feel uncomfortable making the decision alone. If something is "already decided for us" then why would this even be a choice? We would just take the really obvious course of Shadow Tag banning action that matches the definition.

This is a community decision because we all get to chose what we want it to be. And it really just comes down to your own philosophy and respect for what Nintendo/ Game Freak gives us. The truth is as jacked up as it is/ was/ will be as a tier, people could always have a profound respect for Ubers as this sort of “highest form of play.” Like this sort of idea that if you played Smogon Ubers and could win there then you could win in any competitive environment, nothing was above you except for dumb luck. Banning M-Gengar takes away that concept. After this potential ban, winning Ubers is like wining Gen 1 OU. Yeah you’re good but there’s still a higher power than you and his name is Mega Gengar. Of course after this potential non-ban Ubers has some way more real and serious issues as a tier and is quite frankly gonna be just less fun and competitively flat.

Really this ban is about the “fun” aspect of Ubers the tier vs. the “highest form of play” aspect of Ubers the ban list. So… to get back to my original point. I don’t think it’s up to any one person to label Ubers as one thing or the other and then expect the community at large to just go with that. This suspect test is a community decision so that the community decides the definition of gen 6 Ubers.

In other words your ban or no ban argument shouldn't be based on some definition of Ubers you or someone (respected community member or no) have, but the argument should be more like “this is the definition of Ubers we should have and this is why it is better than the other”

For my own little subjective addition it seems to me like there’s going to be a way stronger support for the Genartie (and ultimately Shadow Tag) ban. I am not totally willing to say that’s the camp I fall into yet but I probably do lean that way just a little bit more. I guess it’s just a real shame that we’ll have to sacrifice the “highest form of play” concept to keep the game fun. RIP, I guess…

 

[Perseu]

I'm sure no mods read this thread anymore, but I'll make a comment.

The whole thing about all of this is that Ubers have a historical title of being a simple banlist, not an actual meta, and this comes from RBY, where we had only one great broken mon.

But nowadays, ubers have a LOOOTof options and strategy, I think this started for real in Gen 4, with the addition of the Arceus Formes and start of OU uncommon bans (chomp and mence).

There are obviously broken things around ubers, but in a UBER level, yes, here we have a great power level... But in the gen we are now, ubers need to be a real TIER, not a simple banlist, I mean, imagine in gen 7, we will have like 30 uber mons and lot more viable options there, and just mess it all up because its a simple banlist? Cmon, we have lots of gold here.

 

[AlphaNeria]

I'm trying to get someone to give me examples of why Gengar should be banned so I can make a more informed decision.

In view of posts like this one Hugendugen can you (or someone) post a summary somewhere, e.g. in the original post? It doesn't have to be very detailed. Something like (these are taken off the top of my head and not well fleshed out):

Arguments in favour of banning
1) Mega Gengar is extremely versatile and can carry moves to beat pursuiters (e.g. HP Fire for Scizor, Focus Blast for Tyranitar)
2) Mega Gengar can essentially guarantee a kill by using Taunt + Destiny Bond
3) Shadow Tag removes the ability to switch, which reduces choice and is not competitive
4) Mega Gengar makes it very easy to remove a Pokemon from the other team's defensive core such that another Pokemon can sweep (e.g. removing Skarmory so EKiller can sweep, removing Grass Arceus so Kyogre can sweep, etc)
5) Even if it doesn't trap anything it's still a very fast Pokemon with very high special attack whose attacks are a decent threat

Arguments against banning
1) Mega Gengar takes a turn to mega evolve before it can actually trap something
2) The Pokemon that Mega Gengar traps can often use moves that play around getting trapped (e.g. Dark Pulse on Grass Arceus, Flamethrower on Blissey) or equip Shed Shell
3) Team preview alerts the other player there's a Mega Gengar so they can take measures to deal with it
4) Mega Gengar is not bulky and therefore not easy to switch in
5) It would involve banning a Pokemon from competitive play entirely, which is unprecedented

Something like that - if someone more familiar with the arguments for and against banning Gengarite can write it up that would be awesome!

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Arguments against banning
1) Mega Gengar takes a turn to mega evolve before it can actually trap something
2) The Pokemon that Mega Gengar traps can often use moves that play around getting trapped (e.g. Dark Pulse on Grass Arceus, Flamethrower on Blissey) or equip Shed Shell
3) Team preview alerts the other player there's a Mega Gengar so they can take measures to deal with it
4) Mega Gengar is not bulky and therefore not easy to switch in
5) It would involve banning a Pokemon from competitive play entirely, which is unprecedented

You're forgetting there is a such thing as sac'ing something to allow Gengar to come in, force you out, mega and do as he pleases. He doesn't always have to be switched in, he CAN get free turns.
Flamethrower Blissey. . . Has that ever been viable? I'll answer that for you. . . No. And it never will be. And Shed Shell does literally nothing for you outside of getting away from Gengar.

Oh, the bulky argument, I love seeing this one (not really). . . That means nothing. So is Darkrai, still a very viable and dangerous Pokemon.

 

[Magis4Life]

I wonder, if STAG is banned, will chansey eventually be used over blissey? That might be something I should test in the minitour. I remember previously that chansey was E rank as blissey was preferred in its ability to hold shed shell to somewhat combat shadow tag nonsense.
i don't see frailty as much of an issue for gengar. Remember that there are various ways of bringing it safely in (I.e. volt turn, sacing, double switches). Mega Gengar brings a lot to the table in return; it can typically remove a threatening presence on the opponent's team will little drawback, reducing the scenario to coinflips at worst, especially with an excellent support movepool that essentially allows it to eliminate some of the most common checks to prevalent threats like xern, ekiller, etc. It's interesting though, how coinflips have been the talk of gen 6 lately.

 

[haxiom]

Screenshot

Maybe in hindsight losing so much wasn't a bad thing considering how long it's been since I last played. I ended up finishing with some better judgment on MGar. Thanks to Thetwinmasters for the team.

I think this is the wrong thread if this is reqs though I could be wrong.

EDIT: k moved

 

[Tainic]

I wonder, if STAG is banned, will chansey eventually be used over blissey? That might be something I should test in the minitour. I remember previously that chansey was E rank as blissey was preferred in its ability to hold shed shell to somewhat combat shadow tag nonsense.

It probably will, at this point she's just food for MGar, well, for others STagers as a whole.

I'm not really fond of uber but the few games I played really showed me that the uber meta was gravitating around Gar/STag, around who could remove the other's check/counter to his main finisher and end the game, the Uber tier used to be a ban list first, and a meta second, as it was extremely balanced and permitted almost every Poke residing in it to have a use, (Heck, even Wynaut 2 Gens ago could be used.) and it's about time it becomes considered as a tier rather than no more than a ban list.

 

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

snowy1213: I feel like all these bans are too repetitive...
snowy1213: Everything is overcentrilization
snowy1213: Or uncompetitiveness
snowy1213: In fact, Mega Gengar is the opposite of both these things.
snowy1213: Gengar is healthy for the meta.
snowy1213: it gives a lot of sweepers renewed potential, such as zekrom.
snowy1213: Shadow tag isolates a single pokemon, forcing intense planning and prediction on both sides.
snowy1213: Hence being competitive.
snowy1213: Strategies with mega gengar encourage prediction to make the game more competitive and fun.
snowy1213: It's allowing new pokemon to become more viable than ever, and it encourages complex strategy to make the metagame more balanced AND skill-based.

I don't agree with the line "Mega Gengar is the opposite of both these things" because Mega Gengar is REALLY centralizing. I get the concept that using M-Gengar to poke targeted holes in an enemy team potentially allows you to use less central Pokemon more effectively and that's an... expansion away from a central group of monster but it's based on using one very very central monster and in that sense I think it's very centralizing. However I'm 100% on board with you that this is not an uncompetitive thing. Using M-Gengar effectively is based on your own skills and there is no random feature to any of it's powers or abilities that make it so skill difference is unimportant.

I remember reading the OU M-Kanga quick ban discussion thread in which someone posted about how they were a little appalled or surprised that M-Gen got banned before M-Kanga just because M-Kanga was so mindlessly broken. (sweeping through OU by following a formula you could literally just give to a child like Pegasus does in that one episode of Yu-Gi-Oh) where as the broken traits of M-Gengar require you to have a high understanding of your own team's capabilities as well as your enemy's and be able to well. Off my head I think the wording they used was something like "using M-Gengar takes a little more finesse." Ban reasoning is obviously not the same in Ubers but that finesse concept still hold up here. If you gave M-Gengar to someone with little understanding of the game they would not win with it. They would lose with it 100% of the time because no random factor would step in and hand them the win. For that reason it's a competitive strategy.

I think there's a misconception here. The big issue to take with M-Gengar and Shadow Tag is that this is a game where your team of 6 needs to break through another team of 6. Being able to target and eliminate one critical member of the other team is just far and by large the most effective strategy there is. Basically allowing Shadow Tag as a competitive option invalidates almost every alternative. It means every good competitive strategy now has to center around eliminating a key member of the enemy team before your key member is eliminated. This is centralizing at it's finest but it's not uncompetitive.

If two player go into a battle with a team of 5 plus M-Gengar and one of them makes a critical kill and then pushes through the rest of the team he did it by his own skill and not by any sort of random factor. He(/she) had to identify the critical victim (which could have been unclear at preview since move sets/ plates are still unknown) and he had to force a situation where the critical victim revealed itself and then trap and kill it. And while doing this he had to identify from his enemies point of view which critical kill would bring their victory and he had to avoid situations that would allow his critical member to be eliminated. And so while it means the majority of battles are decided by M-Gengar making a kill it doesn't take the spotlight off the other 5 members of either team as they are the 5 who hold back the enemy team and try to force the situation in which their own M-Gengar can perform. In other words the battle still ends based on a number of very very complex features and is 100% skill based.

I've seen it argued that "switching to maintain match up advantage and momentum is the primary competitive mechanic of singles and therefore taking away that option is uncompetitive" basically the idea that if you can't do anything, if you have no options, then there's no competition. I don't buy into this idea one bit. If your at the end of a battle and you have a 40% Lugia on the field with a Specs Kyogure in the rear and your staring down a Scarf Zekrom what options do you have? Is this umcompetitive suddenly? No, you totally HAD options at the beginning of the match but you got outplayed, your opponent eliminated all your options and now you lose. Shadow Tag is just the single most effective way to eliminate options. But you have all the options you need before you're trapped including the option to trap your enemy's Pokemon yourself. If you have a critical Pokemon that you don't want trapped, then don't let it get trapped! or at the very least make sure you trap their critical monster first.

If you're pro-ban I get you. I really do, it sucks that Ubers used to be centered around a number of interesting diverse strategies and that now it's centered around one. Without Shadow tag Ubers is a much more interesting place. But if you're pro-ban then own up to the real reason. What you're against is centralization. You're against the idea that every match has to be dependent on M-Gengar's kills. But you are not against uncompetitiveness because that not what's happening here. If you're pro-ban it's because you want to "balance" out Ubers a little more and treat it like a tier where you strive for qualities like variety and balance of viable strategies, rather than having only one truly viable competitive option. I guess what I'm saying is there are plenty of bad traits to Shadow Tag we can talk about but being uncompetitive is not one of them.

 

[Fireburn]

I remember reading the OU M-Kanga quick ban discussion thread in which someone posted about how they were a little appalled or surprised that M-Gen got banned before M-Kanga just because M-Kanga was so mindlessly broken. (sweeping through OU by following a formula you could literally just give to a child like Pegasus does in that one episode of Yu-Gi-Oh) where as the broken traits of M-Gengar require you to have a high understanding of your own team's capabilities as well as your enemy's and be able to well. Off my head I think the wording they used was something like "using M-Gengar takes a little more finesse." Ban reasoning is obviously not the same in Ubers but that finesse concept still hold up here. If you gave M-Gengar to someone with little understanding of the game they would not win with it. They would lose with it 100% of the time because no random factor would step in and hand them the win. For that reason it's a competitive strategy.

You are again confusing uncompetitiveness with pure luck and 100% success rate. Something doesn't need to be successful all of the time to be uncompetitive. I also like how you use the formula example because using Shadow Tag pretty much IS a formula:

1. Trap foe's counter to Xerneas/Ekiller/Kyogre/Zekrom/etc
2. Sweep with Xerneas/Ekiller/Kyogre/Zekrom/etc

Do you know why this is a formula? Because you can't switch out! You can't perform any counterplay! If someone switches Ho-Oh into Arceus-Grass you do have the option of switching out i.e. you can still save your Kyogre check so Kyogre doesn't sweep your whole team. If they switch Mega Gengar into Arceus-Grass, whoops, your Arceus-Grass is toast and now Kyogre is going to destroy you. There is nothing much complicated about this and only minimal understanding of the game is the required to understand a concept like "hey maybe if I trap his Grass-type Pokemon my Water-type will be able to accomplish more things!" I know the quality of our ladder isn't the best but not all the scrubs are actually completely brain dead and Gengar does not require THAT much skill to use.

I think there's a misconception here. The big issue to take with M-Gengar and Shadow Tag is that this is a game where your team of 6 needs to break through another team of 6. Being able to target and eliminate one critical member of the other team is just far and by large the most effective strategy there is. Basically allowing Shadow Tag as a competitive option invalidates almost every alternative. It means every good competitive strategy now has to center around eliminating a key member of the enemy team before your key member is eliminated. This is centralizing at it's finest but it's not uncompetitive.

If two player go into a battle with a team of 5 plus M-Gengar and one of them makes a critical kill and then pushes through the rest of the team he did it by his own skill and not by any sort of random factor. He(/she) had to identify the critical victim (which could have been unclear at preview since move sets/ plates are still unknown) and he had to force a situation where the critical victim revealed itself and then trap and kill it. And while doing this he had to identify from his enemies point of view which critical kill would bring their victory and he had to avoid situations that would allow his critical member to be eliminated. And so while it means the majority of battles are decided by M-Gengar making a kill it doesn't take the spotlight off the other 5 members of either team as they are the 5 who hold back the enemy team and try to force the situation in which their own M-Gengar can perform. In other words the battle still ends based on a number of very very complex features and is 100% skill based.

Again, you're underestimating the impact losing that one key Pokemon has on the battle. What does it matter what the other 5 Pokemon are once Xerneas has a Geomancy or Arceus has a Swords Dance and your check is dead? It doesn't take a genius to identify the key Pokemon from team structure; things like "ok he has a Palkia for my Kyogre" or "ok he has no Palkia so Arceus is likely Grass or Water" or even "ok he has a Klefki for my Xerneas" aren't unclear at all. You are greatly overcomplicating how much thinking it actually takes to use Shadow Tag effectively. Go back and look at the SPL Games in Dice's post from Page 1: Shadow Tag decided those games because it was able to remove the critical Pokemon. It doesn't matter what the other 5 Pokemon are if none of them can stand up to Extremekiller!

I've seen it argued that "switching to maintain match up advantage and momentum is the primary competitive mechanic of singles and therefore taking away that option is uncompetitive" basically the idea that if you can't do anything, if you have no options, then there's no competition. I don't buy into this idea one bit. If your at the end of a battle and you have a 40% Lugia on the field with a Specs Kyogure in the rear and your staring down a Scarf Zekrom what options do you have? Is this umcompetitive suddenly? No, you totally HAD options at the beginning of the match but you got outplayed, your opponent eliminated all your options and now you lose. Shadow Tag is just the single most effective way to eliminate options. But you have all the options you need before you're trapped including the option to trap your enemy's Pokemon yourself. If you have a critical Pokemon that you don't want trapped, then don't let it get trapped! or at the very least make sure you trap their critical monster first.

Shadow Tag is the most effective means to eliminate options because you can't counter it. What are you going to do? Use Pursuit? Then you have to pray they don't have a set that beats your Trapper as I explained in an earlier post. Not switch in the Pokemon that gets trapped? Ok, I'll just not switch in my Palkia when they have Kyogre out or Sylveon when they have a Yveltal because Gengar is just gonna kill my check if I do and then Kyogre/Yveltal beats me anyway. Your example doesn't really prove anything either. How exactly did Scarf Zekrom get to that point in your example? Was it because you managed to outplay your opponent or was it because you followed the formula and trapped + KOed their Landorus or Gliscor? Did your opponent even have a chance at stopping their Ground-type from getting destroyed? Is there skill involved in following a formula?

And no, just because you can do it too doesn't make it right.

If you're pro-ban I get you. I really do, it sucks that Ubers used to be centered around a number of interesting diverse strategies and that now it's centered around one. Without Shadow tag Ubers is a much more interesting place. But if you're pro-ban then own up to the real reason. What you're against is centralization. You're against the idea that every match has to be dependent on M-Gengar's kills. But you are not against uncompetitiveness because that not what's happening here. If you're pro-ban it's because you want to "balance" out Ubers a little more and treat it like a tier where you strive for qualities like variety and balance of viable strategies, rather than having only one truly viable competitive option. I guess what I'm saying is there are plenty of bad traits to Shadow Tag we can talk about but being uncompetitive is not one of them.

This would be fine, except for the fact that no one on the pro-ban side is arguing centralization. Last time I checked, Xerneas, Arceus, and Kyogre are still the most commonly used Pokemon on the metagame. Ubers is centralized by nature - we all know that already. The reason Shadow Tag is uncompetitive is because it invalidates the single most important game mechanic and removes choice and thus skill from the game. Removal of choice is the reason why significant luck elements (Swagger, Moody) are uncompetitive because it makes it so your choices don't matter. Making choices that mean nothing is the same as not having choice in the first place! In a way, the true skill in Pokemon is making choices, since a "series of interesting choices" (i.e. what makes up a good game) is basically what Pokemon comes down to.

I don't think you would be making this assumption if you read the pro-ban arguments a bit more closely. I suggest you read this post and this post as they provide good arguments to why Shadow Tag is uncompetitive without arguing centralization or necessarily balance. Your argument basically boils down to "Shadow Tag isn't uncompetitive because it is not entirely luck based" which is false and has already been discussed.

 

[9 Tales of Ninetales]

I feel like the majority of the stuff you’re replying with is sort of already addressed under my original post but I quickly go over some of my main points again because I don’t really feel you’ve invalidated the majority of them. My main concern is the business at the bottom of your post about my assumptions about pro-ban arguments, for which I think I made myself unclear and I want to set that straight.

I’ll start with this:

You are again confusing uncompetitiveness with pure luck and 100% success rate. Something doesn't need to be successful all of the time to be uncompetitive. I also like how you use the formula example because using Shadow Tag pretty much IS a formula:


1. Trap foe's counter to Xerneas/Ekiller/Kyogre/Zekrom/etc

2. Sweep with Xerneas/Ekiller/Kyogre/Zekrom/etc


Do you know why this is a formula? Because you can't switch out! You can't perform any counterplay! If someone switches Ho-Oh into Arceus-Grass you do have the option of switching out i.e. you can still save your Kyogre check so Kyogre doesn't sweep your whole team. If they switch Mega Gengar into Arceus-Grass, whoops, your Arceus-Grass is toast and now Kyogre is going to destroy you. There is nothing much complicated about this and only minimal understanding of the game is the required to understand a concept like "hey maybe if I trap his Grass-type Pokemon my Water-type will be able to accomplish more things!" I know the quality of our ladder isn't the best but not all the scrubs are actually completely brain dead and Gengar does not require THAT much skill to use.

So yeah. I’ll concede this one a little bit. Trapping has some pretty formulaic qualities to it. And in that sense M-Gengar’s game breaking strategy doesn’t require THAT much skill to use as a concept. It is still skill based though. Dumb luck isn’t handing anyone wins. Any game’s winner is decided by some combination of luck and skill. Those are the two elements that go into winning and what drives the concept of being competitive is the idea that having more skill than your opponent makes you typically win. So obviously the more luck based a game is, the less skill based it is, the less dependent on skill difference the victory is, and therefore the less competitive it is. Any strategy that doesn’t depend on luck depends on skill. And so there’s no “confusion” to be made about luck and competitiveness beyond confusing something non-luck based for being uncompetitve. I’ll circle back to the “not being able to make a counterplay” thing though.

Again, you're underestimating the impact losing that one key Pokemon has on the battle. What does it matter what the other 5 Pokemon are once Xerneas has a Geomancy or Arceus has a Swords Dance and your check is dead? It doesn't take a genius to identify the key Pokemon from team structure; things like "ok he has a Palkia for my Kyogre" or "ok he has no Palkia so Arceus is likely Grass or Water" or even "ok he has a Klefki for my Xerneas" aren't unclear at all. You are greatly overcomplicating how much thinking it actually takes to use Shadow Tag effectively. Go back and look at the SPL Games in Dice's post from Page 1: Shadow Tag decided those games because it was able to remove the critical Pokemon. It doesn't matter what the other 5 Pokemon are if none of them can stand up to Extremekiller!

Ok, the middle part of this is again about the formulaic/ skill involved in the simple concept of trapping to win which I’ll concede to on that conceptual level. But I don’t think I underestimated anything. I too said that M-Gengar’s critical kill is what decides battles. However I will argue again that the other 5 Pokémon matter. They are the elements that create the battle situations in which M-Gengar traps so if you want something specific trapped you have to use them to set up that situation in the first place. M-Gengar doesn’t let you just select one Pokémon off team preview to die.

Shadow Tag is the most effective means to eliminate options because you can't counter it. What are you going to do? Use Pursuit? Then you have to pray they don't have a set that beats your Trapper as I explained in an earlier post. Not switch in the Pokemon that gets trapped? Ok, I'll just not switch in my Palkia when they have Kyogre out or Sylveon when they have a Yveltal because Gengar is just gonna kill my check if I do and then Kyogre/Yveltal beats me anyway. Your example doesn't really prove anything either. How exactly did Scarf Zekrom get to that point in your example? Was it because you managed to outplay your opponent or was it because you followed the formula and trapped + KOed their Landorus or Gliscor? Did your opponent even have a chance at stopping their Ground-type from getting destroyed? Is there skill involved in following a formula?

My example was meant to show that every Pokemon battle starts with you having options and ends with you losing them/ taking them away from your enemy. From the stand point of who wins and who loses it doesn’t matter how the Scarfed Zekrom got to that point it could have been either way. What matter is that you no longer have options and this is because your opponent eliminated them. Shadow Tag is the best means of doing this and there for invalidates pretty much every other alternative. Which you correctly stated lower down and I’ll return to. I’ll also circle back to the “you can’t counter it” part (along with the “you can’t counterplay” thing from above.)

And no, just because you can do it too doesn't make it right.

Because you used the word “right” I don’t know exactly how I want to respond. I’m honestly mostly inclined to agree with you. Whether or not it’s “right” is the nature of this suspect test though and near as I can tell it’s a mostly subjective opinion (it’s also one I think most everyone can universally agree with you on). Anyway my argument wasn’t that you being able to use it too made things “right” my argument is that you being able to use it to makes it “competitive”

This would be fine, except for the fact that no one on the pro-ban side is arguing centralization. Last time I checked, Xerneas, Arceus, and Kyogre are still the most commonly used Pokemon on the metagame. Ubers is centralized by nature - we all know that already. The reason Shadow Tag is uncompetitive is because it invalidates the single most important game mechanic and removes choice and thus skill from the game. Removal of choice is the reason why significant luck elements (Swagger, Moody) are uncompetitive because it makes it so your choices don't matter. Making choices that mean nothing is the same as not having choice in the first place! In a way, the true skill in Pokemon is making choices, since a "series of interesting choices" (i.e. what makes up a good game) is basically what Pokemon comes down to


I don't think you would be making this assumption if you read the pro-ban arguments a bit more closely. I suggest you read this post and this post as they provide good arguments to why Shadow Tag is uncompetitive without arguing centralization or necessarily balance. Your argument basically boils down to "Shadow Tag isn't uncompetitive because it is not entirely luck based" which is false and has already been discussed.

This is the part that makes me really concerned I didn’t get across the message of the post you’re replying to. My point is that most of the pro-ban people are very quick to say this is uncompetitive but what they’re actually saying when they say “uncompetitive” is “centralizing” Because in a metagame with M-Gengar there is still a competition. I’ll try to explain it again…

So time to circle back, on this topic of “options.” You can’t counter it, there is no counter play. Once you’re trapped this is true. But you did HAVE options the same way you had options in the battle that ends with that scarfed Zekrom. You didn’t sit down and watch a video of your team losing. You played a video game where you chose to put your critical Pokemon on the field then chose to leave it there/ give M-Gengar a chance to safely switch in on it. I will totally agree with you though that the mere threat of being trapped imposes a lot of limiting risk factors on tons of your options from the very first. And this makes playing with Shadow Tag pretty uncomfortable compared to playing without because rather than having your options slowly eliminated one by one you can have them all taken from you in just one wrong turn. Shadow Tag doesn’t take the control out of your hands it just eliminates your options like nothing before.

Here’s why I think uncompetitve is the word pro-ban gravitates to: because you’re looking at Shadow Tag from within the mindset of the past form of competition. The idea that you can freely use checks to prevent yourself from being sweeped. M-Gengar DOES invalidate this. I agree with that. He invalidates the single most important game mechanic. That’s what is said but what is really the truth is: He invalidates what USED TO BE the single most important game mechanic. His presence means that all strategies that existed before him are just not valid as a viable competitive option. But you Can use him too! Is it right that you essentially have to? Probably not. But is it uncompetitive? No, it isn’t. It just completely changes the nature of the competition and streamlines it one central strategic element. Trap or be trapped. Trap and eliminate your opponent’s critical check before they trap and eliminate yours. And to do that you need more skill than you opponent. If you accomplish it before they do it’s because you won the competition to successfully trap first. It IS a competition. It is competitive….

….Now is that right? Is that good? Let’s get a little subjective. Personally I don’t really think it is. I think taking the much more complex form of competition Ubers had in the past and reducing it to that one centralizes competitive element of trapping first is a pretty terrible thing to do to the game from the stand point of keeping it enjoyable. This is why (as I said in my first post) I’m inclined to lean pro-ban myself. That past main mechanic of the game that Shadow Tag has now invalidated IS what makes Pokemon unique and fun and just all around awesome. And for that reason it really is best that we try to preserve it. It just leaves me a little melancholy. To me personally Ubers was really cool for always being the highest form of competition. Every single competitive element of the game was included in it and so winning in Ubers was winning at the highest level. However M-Gengar has made the newest highest form of competition a very flat and unenjoyable thing. One central boring and arguably less skill requiring form of competition that just isn’t as cool as what we’ve had for that last 3 or more gens. It’s disappointing that it will need to happen but there’s little doubt in my mind that a Shadow Tag (or at least M-Gengar) ban is the correct thing. But I think that THAT is what people need to say if they’re pro-ban. They shouldn’t be calling this uncompetitive because shrang is right. It isn’t. When pro-ban says uncompetitive what they mean is “it’s centralizing the entire game around one competitive element that no one likes” and so yes I think these posts you’ve linked me to (that I have already read before hand) are arguing centralization, they’re just incorrectly labeling it as uncompetitive.

That, in essence, is the whole point of my above post and all the ideas that the point is founded on.

 

[Edgar]

But not everyone (Thank goodness) likes to run Baton Pass on every team, if anything, your argument just helps pro-banners seem like they're in the right way, also, what if Gengar uses Destiny Bond the turn you switch into your Baton Pass receiver? Let it die by killing Gengar? Congrats, you conquered Shadow Tag in exchange of losing a win condition! You can also switch out and waste your Baton Pass chain, oh wait, you can't....

 

[akelly96]

After getting reqs I feel like posting the logic for my voting decision even if this isn't my actual paragraph.

Shadow Tag is a great ability. The argument can be made on either side about whether or not the ability is uncompetitive, but it seems to me it isn't as great as it sounds on paper. While Gengar can trap and kill the pokemon it wants it needs to be sent in on a double or after a sack. This requires risky gameplay for both people playing against it. One wrong play and that Gengar can be dead. In addition some pokemon may use special coverage moves to catch Mega Gengar on the switch. To me it seems like another threat to be prepared for in terms of its effectiveness at trapping pokemon.

I would next like to discuss the arguments about the Shadow Tag ability in general. The argument is made that Shadow Tag is uncompetitive due to the opponent being unable to switch out which is a fundamental core of the pokemon game. People cite sleep clause, Swagger clause and Moody clause as precedence for this ban claiming that any ability that removes an opponents choice should be banned from the ubers. This claim is can be maid untrue by looking at the moody clause which proves that things can be banned for reliance on RNG. Moody does not remove any "autonomy" from the opponents at all but it is still banned. The only thing these bans have in common is that they require you to beat the RNG which doesn't make for a fun competitive environment. Even going with the claim that sleep clause and swagger remove choices there a still differences between Shadow Tag and Swagger and sleep that can be pointed out. The largest is that they remove autonomy in two distinctly different ways. While Shadow Tag removes the player's options to switch, sleep and Swagger remove the player's options to attack. Attacking is the fundamental way you can win a pokemon game even more fundamental then switching pokemon and can be abused much more widely than Shadow Tag. The difference between Shadow Tag and Swagger is that Shadow Tag's effectiveness depends on 1v1 matchups whereas Swagger and Dark Void can be spammed mindlessly against any opponent to reduce their autonomy. If Shadow Tag is banned from ubers than other similar abilities and moves must be banned as well. Arena Trap, Magnet Pull and Mean look must also be banned from competitive pokemon as they remove autonomy in the exact same way as Shadow Tag. Now it may seem ridiculous to compare pokemon such as Dugtrio and Magnezone to Mega Gengar but If you agree that the comparison is ridiculous then you have proven my point exactly. The fact of the matter is that trapping moves and abilities are only effective by 1v1 matchup which is distinctly different from sleep and swagger which can be mindlessly spammed against an opponent. We cannot ban Mega Gengar because it is overpowered as that would defeat the purpose of Ubers and we can only ban it based on whether or not its abilty ,Shadow Tag, is uncompetitive. I have proven that there is no precedence for a ban such as this and even if there was it would not prove Shadow Tag to be uncompetitive.

 

[Yagura]

Alright, time to post my opinion about Mega Gengar.

First of all, I think the problem is about Shadow Tag but MGengar is the biggest problem at the moment, yes Gothitelle can come up on a wall and either take it down with its Specs set or set up Calm Minds until it's +6, use Trick Room and destroy anything left in the team. Another unique Shadow Tag Pokémon is Wobbuffet that has high bulk and Counter/Mirror Coat to deal with all non-Ghost physical attackers and and non-Dark special attackers and it can also Encore setup sweepers and walls to cripple them. But since this is a Mega Gengar suspect I'll be only talking about it: In my opinion MGengar has an unhealthy and uncompetitive presence in the metagame as it but it relies on some thinking and skill unlike Swagger and Moody that are totally based on luck. The fact that it's really fast and has access to Taunt and Dbond makes it so that it gets at least one kill per match, which gives the player using mega gar a huge advantage right off the bat, it can also use Perish Song and switch in the last turn which is a guaranteed kill unless the opponent is a Ghost-type or can use U-Turn or Volt Switch. I don't think I need to say more, everything that needs to be said has already been said.

 

[MrKijani]

A large amount of the arguments I had for/against this ban have already been discussed in the thread. However I still wish to at least post my thoughts and views here, even if it doesn’t bring very much to the table.

Getting a few of the more minor points out of the way (meaning the ones I know little to nothing about or the ones which I really don’t care for), team matchup and luck based strategies.

Team matchup is still something I’m foggy on so I’ll stick to saying that from what I know it seems to be beyond our control and entirely random (unless CT occurs).

Luck based strategies are entirely uncompetitive without question. From what I’ve read in this thread (and I’ve read most of the posts 2 or 3 times over) some people seem to think Shadow Tag/Gengar/Gothitelle are luck based. Well… they’re not. Luck based strategies are when the players are forced without any other option or choice to play a 50/50 and participate in a coinflip. Such was the case of SwagPlay, Moody and OHKO. While Gengar does bring 50/50s to the table it doesn’t do so every time it enters the field, sometimes it has a massive advantage allowing it to gain the advantage and sometimes like in the case of faster or absolute checks (Yveltal) you can play safely and outplay your opponent through an upper hand.


I’d now like to discuss some of the things which are highly open to personal bias and interpretation such as overpowered, overcentralized, skill based, and uncompetitive.

Overpowered is why we have Ubers as has been stated many times over. Yes we have an S-Rank, yes there are some pokemon that are obviously more meta influencing than others, but in the end every Uber pokemon is here because in one way or another they are all overpowered and super-league champs.

Overcentralized is a word I’m seeing a lot in this thread and from my own understanding and experience there are many pokemon in Ubers that are overcentralized. For example every team has a Kyogre, Xerneas, Ho-Oh, Palkia, EKiller and Mewtwo check/counter. EKiller began running Overheat just to hit Scizor, Scizor counters/checks two S-Rank pokemon (Xerneas/Gengar [I believe it really does check Gengar despite some people claiming Pursuit is not a viable solution]) by itself and can be run on all three main archetypes (stall, HO, mixed). People run fire moves simply to help them power through Scizor and yet Scizor is still used widely, this indicates how widely used and useful it is, this to me is indicative of how overcentralizing a mon like Scizor is. Another example is Kyogre itself. Water Spout, rain, Scarf, like please, anyone who isn’t 5 knows how overcentralizing Kyogre is on the metagame. Teambuilding is about preparing for threats and also building around a strategy of your own which is why some mons are so common because they both check/counter main threats as well as assist in the strategy (For example Palkia can be used on Tailwind, Stall, Trick Room, Sticky Web, and even HO). Therefore in my own opinion and understanding overcentralized, much like overpowered doesn’t hold much weight in this discussion due to a large amount of the tier also being overcentralized and overpowered.

Uncompetitive is a strong word. It was used strongly in the Swagplay discussion to describe it as a coinflip strategy that completely removed all competitive aspects (choice, prediction, and multiple other aspects) from the player’s control. However in this case I do not believe Gengar is an uncompetitive pokemon as it relies on a certain amount of skill to use. Yes, anyone can use it and use it effectively. Same goes with ScarfOgre. Big whoop. It is not luck based to use a pokemon who can be defeated via prediction and preparation as well as the general loss of 50/50s.

Skill based strategies could be defined as any strategy not already under the parameters of a luck based strategy (those relying completely on coinflips). Not all strategies are smart, and not all teams have a set strategy (unless “WIN!” Is a strategy).


Now, some things I do know about (surprisingly) namely Gengar itself and Shadow Tag (which are the key subjects in this thread and suspect). So it’s time I got around to discussing them.

Shadow Tag –

I am a believer in switching, I love the choices and the prediction that switching allows. Shadow Tag entirely removes that. Despite the restrictions Shadow Tag sets for you, I still don’t think it’s such a broken ability, nor do I think it’s really worth getting my knickers in a twist over. Due to Shadow Tag, Gothitelle, Wobbuffet, and Gengar can all have their way with at least one pokemon on the opponents team, in some cases serving to completely cripple the opponent. The beauty of team preview is that you can see when your opponent is utilizing any of these three mons and you can better prepare and work out different ways to use the mons they threaten so as to lessen your risk to them. From experience I know that if I keep out my Gengar weak mon at some point the opponent will be forced to bring out Gengar for a subpar matchup resulting in me keeping my more favourable mon in exchange for one who is less important. This kind of planning for the Shadow Tag users can be done in teambuilder, and while you can never prepare for all of the moves they are capable of running you can lessen any impact they will have on your team as a whole.


Gengar/Mega-Gengar –

Gengar is generally limited to removing just one pokemon on a team (more if the circumstances allow Gengar to trap a mon that cannot touch Gengar in the slightest but in this tier any experienced players know to avoid that [Psychic Blissey]) which really keeps the team members equalized. The big part of it is that Gengar can often remove a key pokemon on the team, such as Palkia, allowing the opponent to sweep with their ScarfOgre.


Both yolotrollster and shrang brought up a point which I believe as well and that is that the longer Shadow Tag and Gengar stay in the meta the more people will find ways to adapt to them. Some people have pointed out that very prominent battlers have already attempted to find a way to deal with Gengar and Shadow Tag but so far nothing has come up. Perhaps that is because this an un-before seen threat so there has never previously been such an attempt to mediate it.

As to a point Melee Mewtwo made about Shadow Tag and how it limits choice in a game. This is true to an extent. Your choice is really only limited when it comes to switching, by extent this limits you in dealing with Gengar as you would with Kyogre or Xerneas, but you can still prepare (to an extent) so as not to be completely Gengar weak with 1 particular mon, but rather to only be partially weak and only allowing your opponent to remove one pokemon rather than two with Gengar.


The biggest issue I see with Gengar is that it can remove an important pokemon leaving you open to a sweep by your opponent’s pokemon. But in the end, I see that as a valid strategy, not a broken one. Certain strategies are about clearing checks and counters so you can sweep your opponent; it was seen in previous gens with other pokemon. Gengar just happens to have the stats, movepool and ability to do it more effectively than before. I also believe that people tend to overhype things. So as of now, I’m against the ban on Gengarite as I do not believe it to be a broken pokemon, nor do I believe that it is so overcentralized as to completely skew the metagame.


TL;DR: no ban kthx

(Attempting to get reqs and opinions can change)

 

[Miscellaneous]

What a great way to determine skill, coinflips!

My point is, I don't think you should call "competitive" something that is determined by coinflips and that the arguments presented by the anti-ban users just seem pretty ignorant to me.

This analogy to coin-flipping bugs me greatly, because it simply isn't true. It is true for an evasion scenario or for confusion, but it is not true here.

Competitive (yes, I'm using this word purposefully) pokemon is all about taking calculated risks, playing to execute a plan and trying to out-guess your opponent. In fact, the only time when this isn't true is when a team is hard-countered. Say it's move #10 or so and you have a typical Gengar vs ["counter"/ pokemon designed to stop gengar] and both players have a choice that they can reason with and try to deduce what their opponent will do given the situation and what they've previously seen from them in the battle and what the rest of their team suggests their plan is. Is this really so far removed from what we see elsewhere?

Something that much more resembles a coinflip would be a scenario where I have a pokemon out against Breloom and I will win or lose the match depending on how many turns Spore has put me to sleep for.
What I find odd is that no-one ever seems to complain about the latter scenario outside of what are basically innocent "hax" comments, there's never been a "ban sleep status moves" movement. And yet that is a scenario which surely makes a much better definition for the word "uncompetitive" than one where both battlers have full control over the outcome.


Perhaps I need to read more of this thread, but it seems to me that people are hiding behind the word "coinflip" and "uncompetitive" as they are too afraid or too opinionated to admit the truth; which is that no-one wants to play a game which can be decided in one or two moves/ decisions (which is essentially what gengar can do). And whilst I would agree, I don't think this either is something so far removed from typical ubers play (whereby one wrong move can cost you the game given the potency of set-up sweepers or hyper offense teams).

I don't mind the opinion that mega-gengar/ shadow tag is stupid and shouldn't be in the game. But it does bug me to see these falsely labelled as entirely luck-based phenomena.

For the purposes of clarity I'll give an example.
Say I run a team with 6 prankster pokemon with swagger and double team and the only thing I will do the entire game is spam these moves or use attacks/ other status if I suspect my opponent is trying to PP stall. By doing this, I am almost completely making the outcome of the game purely luck-based. We may as well be sitting down and flipping 50 coins. I think everyone can agree and everyone can clearly see why this can and should be banned due to it being "uncompetitive".

Now let's say I run a team which includes a STAG user designed to remove any key threats or major checks to my main win conditions. It's entirely possible that a good battler would be able to predict what I would target with my STAG user and look to punish my attempts at that. If they run a pursuit user, then neither of us is ever forced to have the result of the battle be determined by luck. Their decision to crunch or pursuit and my decision to switch or attack is entirely based on a judgement call, unless everyone determines what move they use by flipping a coin. Best case scenario for me is that I trap the pokemon I want through prediction and remove it from the game.

I ask; can the above really be solely down to luck? In my eyes, it is a situation where luck plays no factor at all, because the outcome is always going to be determined by what I decide vs. what my opponent decides to do - and neither of these have anything to do with luck unless we're using RNGs to decide what to switch to or what moves to use.

Is it something that is unattractive and is generally speaking a sucky way to lose? Yes.
Is the ability to forcibly remove a pokemon given correct prediction broken? Perhaps it is. I think that is what is actually being addressed here. That is what really makes STAG stand out above every other monstrous threat in Ubers. Understandably, people hate playing against that. But if you were to ban STAG under that premise I think it would have serious repercussions regarding whether or not Ubers is an official metagame or just a banlist.

 

[Haruno]

Alright after god knows how long, I'll make my contribution in this discussion or whatnot. I'm going to ignore the aspect of shadow tag and focus primarily on gengarite since MM2 will give me a beating if I talk about shadow tag rip.

From what I can see, the arguments in no particular order of importance.

Pro ban side:

1. Shadow tag is broken and we need gengarite banned to ban gothitelle

Let's be honest now, unlike other suspect tests in various tiers where slippery slopes are to be avoided like the plague, this particular suspect test is an exception to that since we know for a fact that if gengarite gets banned then a suspect test for shadow tag as a whole soon follows as quoted by fireburn here. So although some might feel that gengarite isn't broken necessarily but rather goth is broken, must be forced to ban gengarite in order to achieve said goth suspect. This is up to general preference and has no bearing on whether or not gengarite is broken but this fact will sway voters decisions so eh. I feel that if anything we should either have several voting options such as; ban gengarite, ban gothitelle, ban gengarite + gothitelle, ban shadow tag, ban wobbuffet, etc. Doing this would probably allow us to have a more constructive suspect discussion (not like they're ever constructive in the first place) and allow us to find out the root of the problem rather than this back and forth we keep having.

2. restricts teambuilding by making grass/fairies near impossible to use (mostly grass/fairyceus + slyveon) but also forces us to not use any mons that is potential bait for gengar (chansey, and other walls mostly that have next to no offensive presence)

In all tiers, team building is restricted to an extent due to the vast majority of threats that must be accounted for however in this particular instance, it "removes" choice by disallowing us from running gengar bait mons so to speak. How is this different than other major threats that rather than forcing you to not use x mon, they instead force you to use y mon to deal with them. Example given, you're not allowed to run mons such as fairyceus/chansey because of gengar's mere existence or even if you opt to run those mons, you have to gimp them in order to deal with gengar. How is this different than being forced to run checks to a certain threat? Such as when teambuilding you absolutely have to have kyogre/xerneas/blaziken checks otherwise you will be at an incredible disadvantage when faced against those mons. They're essentially the same in essence since they both "remove" choice from teambuilding. If gengar is is so dominant to an extent that it makes several archetypes unviable then rather than try to use playstyles that aren't effective, wouldn't it be more preferable to adapt to the metagame and run the mons/sets that are viable and instead stick to those archetypes with their respective sub categories?

3. In addition to the above point, it makes team matchup that much more important.

melee mewtwo touched upon this earlier by mentioning that shadow tag makes team matchup more important but with or without shadow tag, team matchup will prevail so this is mostly up to preference since a good team should be able to at least check the vast majority of threats in the tier while still being able to fulfill their win conditions. I don't feel that gengar can break down a team by itself but I feel it does make each and every move more important but that's part of the skill involved in the game so no big deal there.

4. Overpowered/overcentralization that is unhealthy for ubers

As far as being overcentralized is concerned, that is essentially irrelevant as far as the uber tier is concerned. This isn't ou or some other tier where overcentralization should be avoided at all costs, this is fucking ubers with mons that constantly see usage of 40%+ (kyogre since like forever, xerneas since xy started, etc) and we never tried to push for a ban on those for overcentralization since their usage stats are by far superior to gengars.

The other concern is being overpowered, and with its combination of shadow tag, high speed and high special attack, it's hard to see how this wouldn't be overpowered with the ability to remove key mons on your opponent's side however in order for it to do so, it has to first mega evolve which is quite hard to do in a game due to gengar's relatively low bulk and inability to switch in on mons since even most neutral hits are solid 2hko's. If it however does manage to come in and mega evolve and manages to remove multiple threats, wouldn't it be due to the fact that said mega gengar user has outplayed their opponent which we encourage in the "skill" based game of pokemon and our tiering goals should be to ensure that the better player will most likely win and gengar is just a tool to achieve that.

5. Removes choice from the player

This is something I feel the proban side brings up alot, for reasons that are beyond me. Adding on to what conflict said earlier, unlike gothitelle, gengar has a far harder time being able to set up (get its shadow tag essentially) and take out a key mon. The only thing I can really agree with on this side of the argument is that it forces a shit ton of 50-50's between taunt and destiny bond which is a high risk high reward play. Though would these 50-50's be considered broken to the extent that it warrants a gengarite ban? Unlike gothitelle, who essentially autowins provided it comes in on the right mon, gengar is forced to risk itself to ko said mon which is far from reliable.

Anti ban side:

1. It's wrong to ban a mon from ubers WTFBBQFUCKSMOGON

Smogon has shown before that we're willing to ban strategies and/or mons that are noncompetitive in the ubers metagame (think arceus in BW ubers where locopoke and other esteemed users tried to keep it banned) and we've also removed evasion clause and banned swagger which was "against" our philosophy so it's not really unusual nor wrong for us to ban shadow tag should the users deem it as uncompetitive.

2. Can be pursuit trapped

Thanks to how shitty most pursuit users are, it's not exactly easy to switch a pursuit user in since thanks to gengar's high SpA and plethora of moves which include hp fire, shadow ball, focus blast all of which are relatively common, no viable pursuit user can safely come in and if a pursuit user comes in after gengar has ko'd something then gengar has already done it's job.

probably missed some irrelevant shit but i assume they're not important since I didn't see/remember them but if I remember I'll probably respond to them in turn.

 

[Edgar]

Honestly, all I got from your post was "Build better teams so they can handle Mega Gengar and suck it up for real xD". No man, just.... don't say that lol. You didn't say anything new that any anti-ban user hasn't said yet You're basically asking every player to play perfectly and build perfectly so they can handle Mega-Gengar. I don't know how to make it more clear that is nearly impossible to adapt to Mega-Gengar, teambuilding wise, I don't tend to use a Scarf user on every team because I look way past "checking" Mega-Gengar, that's just a step back if your using 1 pokemon to check another, if it manages to take on different roles then that's fine I guess but, the thing is when battling, take Scarf Kyogre as an example, you have X pokemon and your opponent switches out to Gengar, you decide you need that for later to check Y mon later, anyways, you decide that going to Kyogre is the best option since it can take 1 move and then outspeed and use Surf an OHKO. However, your opponent, predicting that, uses Destiny Bond on the switch and now you're just forced to kill Mega-Gengar and lose your Kyogre when your opponent still has a Ho-Oh or a fast mon like Darkrai or Mewtwo that Kyogre would be able to check, chances are that you're most likely going to lose to one of those pokemon lol.

Another point you touched is that ussage decides brokeness, that's nowhere near as true. If I remember correctly Kyogre was a mon with 40%+ ussage for like 3 gens and I never heard known players complain about it, in fact I personally think Kyogre and Extremekiller Arceus are better in this generation just because Mega-Gengar can trap its checks and counters lol. I don't even think Kyogre and Extremekiller Arceus are comparable to Mega Gengar even, they actually have checks and lose to their checks and, unlike Mega-Gengar, they don't remove switches from the game, allowing the player to make a choice based on what they're facing. "My opponent has a Kyogre, I'm just going to go into my safe switch-in which is Arceus-Grass, no big deal". "My Palkia is in Shadow Ball range, unfortunately Mega-Gengar is not letting me switch, fuck Kyogre is gonna have a field day now".

I don't know man, I feel like your arguments are rather immature hyw (no offense).

edit: I don't think Fireburn deleted your post because you are opposed, I think he deleted your post because you're starting to get annoying.

I deleted it because it was a "git gud" post which I explicitly stated was not going to be allowed - Fireburn

 

[Aquasition]

I had a little chat with WreckDra that started off about the Mega Mawile suspect. Eventually, it turned into this:

Hide

Aqua's Swirlix: and this is why I play ubers
WreckDra: mhmm :]
Aqua's Swirlix: so I can use THE BIG GUNS without repercussion
WreckDra: exactly
Aqua's Swirlix: and that just makes the M-gar suspect that much more painful
WreckDra: the problem i have with it
WreckDra: at this point
WreckDra: is we are singling out a poke
Aqua's Swirlix: and not S-tag in general?
WreckDra: which is not a trwnd i want to help start
WreckDra: for gengarite
Aqua's Swirlix: well, to be fair, banning S-tag still bans M-gar
WreckDra: we are singling out a poke
WreckDra: yes
WreckDra: but
WreckDra: it also gives us an excuse
WreckDra: should people accuse xerneas
Aqua's Swirlix: to try again later
WreckDra: unlike just banning gar
Aqua's Swirlix: yeah
Aqua's Swirlix: slippery slope
WreckDra: just planning ahead is all
Aqua's Swirlix: also, I kind of think it kind of hurts the concept of ubers
WreckDra: i don't think the xern suspect
WreckDra: will happen
WreckDra: it does
WreckDra: which is a shame
Aqua's Swirlix: honestly, I don't see S-tag as bad as sleep clause or the various has clauses
Aqua's Swirlix: hax
WreckDra: um
Aqua's Swirlix: the hax clauses are obvious
WreckDra: melee and i\
WreckDra: had a discussion
Aqua's Swirlix: had a discussion about it
WreckDra: that suade me
WreckDra: from that
Aqua's Swirlix: I know, he posted it on the thread
WreckDra: notion actually
WreckDra: i thought it was interesting
Aqua's Swirlix: don't get me wrong, it's still bad
WreckDra: where as the rest of the bans made switching stupid
WreckDra: stag makes it so you can't
Aqua's Swirlix: to be fair, form wobba usage in gen 4
Aqua's Swirlix: I've removed a lot of Ogre checks that way to pave the way for a scarf ogre sweep
WreckDra: considering wob was stupidly good yeah
WreckDra: i used it to pave for both kingdra and ogre
WreckDra: on multiple teams
Aqua's Swirlix: and, while it was complained about, it wasn't looked at
Aqua's Swirlix: no seriously, ask a gen 4 veteran about wobba hate
WreckDra: ik
WreckDra: about the wob hate
Aqua's Swirlix: BT mew was also hated, but, this isn't a BT suspect
WreckDra: yeah
WreckDra: there were a few of that nature
Aqua's Swirlix: if anything, thing's have gotten SLIGHTLY more difficult to trap from gen 4
Aqua's Swirlix: mainly due to the existence of team preview
Aqua's Swirlix: imagine M-gar in gen 4
Aqua's Swirlix: :|
WreckDra: team preview nerfed wob hard yeah
WreckDra: no
WreckDra: nightmares
WreckDra: would follow
WreckDra: lol
Aqua's Swirlix: I guess the main thing ppl are complaining about is got hi vs stall
Aqua's Swirlix: gothi
WreckDra: goth is a savage
Aqua's Swirlix: that's a lot more dangerous, mainly for reasons of popular supportceus and SDefkia
WreckDra: mhmm
Aqua's Swirlix: to be fair though, sweeping with it isn't the easiest thing in the world, it still has a few drawbacks
Aqua's Swirlix: like relatively low phys def, and only having one move to attack with
WreckDra: ik
WreckDra: but removing suportceus and kia
WreckDra: is huge
Aqua's Swirlix: true
WreckDra: as well as every cleric in the game
WreckDra: besides unb
WreckDra: umb*
Aqua's Swirlix: well, thats the job of a shadow tagger
Aqua's Swirlix: to snipe various threats
Aqua's Swirlix: basically, think Mega Gengar as a CS AWP
Aqua's Swirlix: or, wait, you don't playCS
Aqua's Swirlix: darn :|
WreckDra: :[
Aqua's Swirlix: the point is, it's job is to switch into the right threat and destroy it
Aqua's Swirlix: just like how a sniper would pick off a high-priority target
WreckDra: yeah
WreckDra: and that is what upsets the proban side the most
Aqua's Swirlix: and, with the advent of supportceus and defensive pokes, wall-breakers will have a harder time
Aqua's Swirlix: removal of hazards via defog, pokemon that can now switch into their moves and heal off the damage
WreckDra: there are multiple ways to punish defog
WreckDra: but yeah
WreckDra: i see where you're going
WreckDra: that is gen 6, a bulkier
WreckDra: less speed reliant
WreckDra: ,meta
Aqua's Swirlix: I expect mix-xern to be a thing if S-tag gets the boot
Aqua's Swirlix: well, it already is
WreckDra: yup
Aqua's Swirlix: just, more of a thing
Aqua's Swirlix: also, let's not forget a daily dose of StallvStall
WreckDra: It would allow Edgar and I to open up our team arsenals a bit more
Aqua's Swirlix: true
WreckDra: which is something i would like to do tbf
Aqua's Swirlix: *cue Orchceus AKA Perishtrapper*
WreckDra: LOL
WreckDra: I was thinking along the lines of using clef more
Aqua's Swirlix: to be fair, I found it in a gen 5 underrated sets
WreckDra: as well as other underused clerics
Aqua's Swirlix: but, gen 5 does not work well for that kind of tactic
WreckDra: nop
WreckDra: so much
WreckDra: u-turn O_O
WreckDra: among other things
Aqua's Swirlix: honestly, I'm anti-ban, but I understand the pro-banners side of the argument,and I'm probably not gonna throw a hissy fit if it does get banned
WreckDra: same
WreckDra: I am anti ban
Aqua's Swirlix: I love having perspective :]
WreckDra: for the reason i stated first
WreckDra: but pro ban vs tag
WreckDra: I feel like I am in this position, because I am uneasy
WreckDra: about changing our banning grounds
WreckDra: that much
WreckDra: to single out a poke
Aqua's Swirlix: yeah, besides the whole "what it does to the concept of ubers" I hate this test because of what it did to the community
WreckDra: yeah :[
Aqua's Swirlix: :[
Aqua's Swirlix: I should post this on the suspect thread y/y
Aqua's Swirlix: :]
WreckDra: if you want
Aqua's Swirlix: ok, thanks

tl:dr, I am against banning M-gar and S-tag, but I also understand the changes the ban would bring, and I'm not against that. This is just my opinion after all. Also, I hate this suspect test because it split the community

 

[Fireburn]

I had a little chat with WreckDra that started off about the Mega Mawile suspect. Eventually, it turned into this:

Hide

Aqua's Swirlix: and this is why I play ubers
WreckDra: mhmm :]
Aqua's Swirlix: so I can use THE BIG GUNS without repercussion
WreckDra: exactly
Aqua's Swirlix: and that just makes the M-gar suspect that much more painful
WreckDra: the problem i have with it
WreckDra: at this point
WreckDra: is we are singling out a poke
Aqua's Swirlix: and not S-tag in general?
WreckDra: which is not a trwnd i want to help start
WreckDra: for gengarite
Aqua's Swirlix: well, to be fair, banning S-tag still bans M-gar
WreckDra: we are singling out a poke
WreckDra: yes
WreckDra: but
WreckDra: it also gives us an excuse
WreckDra: should people accuse xerneas
Aqua's Swirlix: to try again later
WreckDra: unlike just banning gar
Aqua's Swirlix: yeah
Aqua's Swirlix: slippery slope
WreckDra: just planning ahead is all
Aqua's Swirlix: also, I kind of think it kind of hurts the concept of ubers
WreckDra: i don't think the xern suspect
WreckDra: will happen
WreckDra: it does
WreckDra: which is a shame
Aqua's Swirlix: honestly, I don't see S-tag as bad as sleep clause or the various has clauses
Aqua's Swirlix: hax
WreckDra: um
Aqua's Swirlix: the hax clauses are obvious
WreckDra: melee and i\
WreckDra: had a discussion
Aqua's Swirlix: had a discussion about it
WreckDra: that suade me
WreckDra: from that
Aqua's Swirlix: I know, he posted it on the thread
WreckDra: notion actually
WreckDra: i thought it was interesting
Aqua's Swirlix: don't get me wrong, it's still bad
WreckDra: where as the rest of the bans made switching stupid
WreckDra: stag makes it so you can't
Aqua's Swirlix: to be fair, form wobba usage in gen 4
Aqua's Swirlix: I've removed a lot of Ogre checks that way to pave the way for a scarf ogre sweep
WreckDra: considering wob was stupidly good yeah
WreckDra: i used it to pave for both kingdra and ogre
WreckDra: on multiple teams
Aqua's Swirlix: and, while it was complained about, it wasn't looked at
Aqua's Swirlix: no seriously, ask a gen 4 veteran about wobba hate
WreckDra: ik
WreckDra: about the wob hate
Aqua's Swirlix: BT mew was also hated, but, this isn't a BT suspect
WreckDra: yeah
WreckDra: there were a few of that nature
Aqua's Swirlix: if anything, thing's have gotten SLIGHTLY more difficult to trap from gen 4
Aqua's Swirlix: mainly due to the existence of team preview
Aqua's Swirlix: imagine M-gar in gen 4
Aqua's Swirlix: :|
WreckDra: team preview nerfed wob hard yeah
WreckDra: no
WreckDra: nightmares
WreckDra: would follow
WreckDra: lol
Aqua's Swirlix: I guess the main thing ppl are complaining about is got hi vs stall
Aqua's Swirlix: gothi
WreckDra: goth is a savage
Aqua's Swirlix: that's a lot more dangerous, mainly for reasons of popular supportceus and SDefkia
WreckDra: mhmm
Aqua's Swirlix: to be fair though, sweeping with it isn't the easiest thing in the world, it still has a few drawbacks
Aqua's Swirlix: like relatively low phys def, and only having one move to attack with
WreckDra: ik
WreckDra: but removing suportceus and kia
WreckDra: is huge
Aqua's Swirlix: true
WreckDra: as well as every cleric in the game
WreckDra: besides unb
WreckDra: umb*
Aqua's Swirlix: well, thats the job of a shadow tagger
Aqua's Swirlix: to snipe various threats
Aqua's Swirlix: basically, think Mega Gengar as a CS AWP
Aqua's Swirlix: or, wait, you don't playCS
Aqua's Swirlix: darn :|
WreckDra: :[
Aqua's Swirlix: the point is, it's job is to switch into the right threat and destroy it
Aqua's Swirlix: just like how a sniper would pick off a high-priority target
WreckDra: yeah
WreckDra: and that is what upsets the proban side the most
Aqua's Swirlix: and, with the advent of supportceus and defensive pokes, wall-breakers will have a harder time
Aqua's Swirlix: removal of hazards via defog, pokemon that can now switch into their moves and heal off the damage
WreckDra: there are multiple ways to punish defog
WreckDra: but yeah
WreckDra: i see where you're going
WreckDra: that is gen 6, a bulkier
WreckDra: less speed reliant
WreckDra: ,meta
Aqua's Swirlix: I expect mix-xern to be a thing if S-tag gets the boot
Aqua's Swirlix: well, it already is
WreckDra: yup
Aqua's Swirlix: just, more of a thing
Aqua's Swirlix: also, let's not forget a daily dose of StallvStall
WreckDra: It would allow Edgar and I to open up our team arsenals a bit more
Aqua's Swirlix: true
WreckDra: which is something i would like to do tbf
Aqua's Swirlix: *cue Orchceus AKA Perishtrapper*
WreckDra: LOL
WreckDra: I was thinking along the lines of using clef more
Aqua's Swirlix: to be fair, I found it in a gen 5 underrated sets
WreckDra: as well as other underused clerics
Aqua's Swirlix: but, gen 5 does not work well for that kind of tactic
WreckDra: nop
WreckDra: so much
WreckDra: u-turn O_O
WreckDra: among other things
Aqua's Swirlix: honestly, I'm anti-ban, but I understand the pro-banners side of the argument,and I'm probably not gonna throw a hissy fit if it does get banned
WreckDra: same
WreckDra: I am anti ban
Aqua's Swirlix: I love having perspective :]
WreckDra: for the reason i stated first
WreckDra: but pro ban vs tag
WreckDra: I feel like I am in this position, because I am uneasy
WreckDra: about changing our banning grounds
WreckDra: that much
WreckDra: to single out a poke
Aqua's Swirlix: yeah, besides the whole "what it does to the concept of ubers" I hate this test because of what it did to the community
WreckDra: yeah :[
Aqua's Swirlix: :[
Aqua's Swirlix: I should post this on the suspect thread y/y
Aqua's Swirlix: :]
WreckDra: if you want
Aqua's Swirlix: ok, thanks

tl:dr, I am against banning M-gar and S-tag, but I also understand the changes the ban would bring, and I'm not against that. This is just my opinion after all. Also, I hate this suspect test because it split the community

I want to address a couple statements in your log real quick:

1) This isn't going to be a slippery slope, I assure you. (Slippery Slope is a logical fallacy; regardless, we said in the OP we're not testing Xerneas ever)
2) Gen 4 Ubers was a different metagame than Gen 6 Ubers and it should not affect decisions now.
3) Here is a list of Pokemon that can do work against stall in Ubers

dem mons

https://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/tags/uber

4) We're still going to be a community in the end, but issues need to be tackled, not ignored
5) :]

 

[Haruno]

Just a quick question, if the premise of the suspect was to have an ideal metagame by the time ubers open starts, wouldn't it be preferable to finish both gengarite + potential shadow tag suspect by september first as opposed to just finishing the gengarite suspect by then?

 

[g]

After my laddering experience I am leaning towards do not ban for Gengarite.
While mega Gengar certainly has better stats, typing, and movepool than other Shadow Tag users in my experience it is less effective than Gothitelle in doing its job making me think Gengarite is not "uncompetitive" per se.
The turn in which Gengar mega evolves is the real game breaker and the fact that you can actually react to that by bringing in a check and essentially "trade" kills at worst (or force it out I guess) makes it remotely manageable. Gothitelle however can "freely" trap a lot of pokemon including support Arceus formes not running Punishment and weaker Palkias despite its mediocre stats and movepool making me think that Shadow Tag is the real problem.
A Shadow Tag ban would obviously mean Gengarite banned but what can you do.

 

[Aquasition]

I want to address a couple statements in your log real quick:

1) This isn't going to be a slippery slope, I assure you. (Slippery Slope is a logical fallacy; regardless, we said in the OP we're not testing Xerneas ever)
2) Gen 4 Ubers was a different metagame than Gen 6 Ubers and it should not affect decisions now.
3) Here is a list of Pokemon that can do work against stall in Ubers

dem mons

https://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/tags/uber

4) We're still going to be a community in the end, but issues need to be tackled, not ignored
5) :]

I know, I just thought I would add my 2 cents AKA what I think.

Also, :]


and before I forget, everyone wants to "interview" Wreckdra at this time of year XD

Also, I think me "interviewing" wreckdra was an easier way to put my thoughts out.

 

[Fatibobert9]

After my laddering experience I am leaning towards do not ban for Gengarite.
While mega Gengar certainly has better stats, typing, and movepool than other Shadow Tag users in my experience it is less effective than Gothitelle in doing its job making me think Gengarite is not "uncompetitive" per se.
The turn in which Gengar mega evolves is the real game breaker and the fact that you can actually react to that by bringing in a check and essentially "trade" kills at worst (or force it out I guess) makes it remotely manageable. Gothitelle however can "freely" trap a lot of pokemon including support Arceus formes not running Punishment and weaker Palkias despite its mediocre stats and movepool making me think that Shadow Tag is the real problem.
A Shadow Tag ban would obviously mean Gengarite banned but what can you do.

Yes the turn it Mega Evolves can be crucial, but don't forget moves like substitute that can be used while the opponent switches out into their check. I believe shadow tag will only be suspected if Mega Gengar is banned.

 

[Haruno]

After my laddering experience I am leaning towards do not ban for Gengarite.
While mega Gengar certainly has better stats, typing, and movepool than other Shadow Tag users in my experience it is less effective than Gothitelle in doing its job making me think Gengarite is not "uncompetitive" per se.
The turn in which Gengar mega evolves is the real game breaker and the fact that you can actually react to that by bringing in a check and essentially "trade" kills at worst (or force it out I guess) makes it remotely manageable. Gothitelle however can "freely" trap a lot of pokemon including support Arceus formes not running Punishment and weaker Palkias despite its mediocre stats and movepool making me think that Shadow Tag is the real problem.
A Shadow Tag ban would obviously mean Gengarite banned but what can you do.

Just out of curiosity, what are these checks you mention? A importable of your team that you used to ladder would also help abit with spreading your point. o-o

I don't believe that Mega Gengar should be banned because if it were banned it would set a very poor precedent for the metagame. Sure, we have things like Moody and Swagger clause, but we've never outright banned a Pokemon from Ubers. If we did ban Gengar then that would set precedent for banning, I don't know, Arceus or Xerneas or Kyogre or...

Yeah I am arguing slippery slope but this could very well become one, contrary to what Fireburn has said above. Ubers is supposed to be a format with no restrictions, staying true to the original intent of the metagame. We've banned Moody and Swagger (the latter of which I don't really understand, but that's another discussion for another day), but if we start banning Pokemon and items Ubers could very well become too similar to OU.

Despite people saying ubers is a banlist first, tier second, that is not the case as far as this subforum is concerned. The goal of the ubers metagame is the same as every other metagame, in the sense that we want the more skill based player to have a higher chance of winning. Whether it be a mon, move, or mechanic that makes a metagame uncompetitive, ubers will try its best to rectify that. As shown with previous suspects (testing age old clauses, testing swagger, etc) ubers is not afraid to divulge from age old thinking and do something new if the end result is a more competitive, skill based metagame. The fact that shadow tag is getting suspected shows that it was deemed uncompetitive enough in the eyes of hugendugen and presumably the rest of the ubers council, that gengarite and possibly shadow tag as a whole is a detriment of our ideal metagame. The suspect test and the suspect research tour is a way to show if that is truly the case. If shadow tag/gengarite is deemed uncompetitive then it'll be banned, if not then it'll stay unbanned. As long as it results in a better metagame, it should be done. And worst comes to worst and shadow tag was actually unrightfully banned, then I can't see the council not just revoking the ban if that's the case.