Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[skies]

alexwolf

Mega Houndoom does not deserve to move up in my opinion. I really dislike this thing, so pardon a bit of bias here and there. I've used it a bit and have not once been impressed. It has a horrible Speed tier before mega evolving, a bad typing, and a practically useless ability after mega evolving, as the only other sun inducer is also a mega. On the topic of other megas, why would I use this over another mega like Mega Charizard or Mega Mawile, both two fantastic Pokemon that I now can not use because I wasted it on Houndoomite. I'm not one to use this as an argument, but this is an exception, I really don't think this is comparable to Smeargle and Hydreigon in what they do. It's perfectly fine where it is and does not need to move up whatsoever. Sure, it's fast and strong, but it also can't hold a boosting item, it has issues setting up Nasty Plot and has a tiny movepool, definitely against this.

Terrakion definitely does deserve the raise, unlike Mega Houndoom. It is just fantastic and has little counters. It does amazingly w/ Sash + SR, Taunt and Swords Dance on these sets are just amazing and its STABs are just great as well. I run Stealth Rock / Swords Dance / Close Combat / Stone Edge to pressure Defog users with Swords Dance and still wreak havoc afterwards thanks to its high Attack and Speed stats. It's just a fantastic Pokemon that deserves to move up to A+. I know it's taking a huge leap, but I wouldn't even mind it being pushed into S.

Staraptor is really good, I agree. I don't have much experience using it, but I know it does wonders against my team and it always gives me issues. Close Combat is a huge boon and it alone separates it from bird competition. There's really not much to add here, it's a good Pokemon and is in need of a slight bump, no objections.

I don't have much input on Lucario, everything's already been said o3o.

Conkeldurr used to be great, but now it just is bleh. It's bad, really bad and I don't even think about putting checks / counters to it on my team I usually have like three without even trying. It's so easily set up on and Assault Vest isn't even //amazing//. It's too slow to really do anything and I just don't like it. I'll give it that it has Guts as a status absorber, but practically all status inflictors force it out and it gets set on a timer. Azumarill is a massive thorn in it side as well and it's super common. It just doesn't fare well and I really do think it needs to drop, possibly even to C+.

Jirachi should move up to C imo. It has a neat typing and is quite versatile. It's not absolute garbage like Mega Abomasnow. It's versatility is nearly unmatched and I have to once again agree with everything Jukain said, he's summarized it well. Agreeing w/ it moving up!

Hell, I'd like to see Slowbro moving up all the way to A. It's a fantastic Pokemon with great stats, movepool, reliable recovery, and an amazing ability. Its typing offers it many resistances and allows it to check so much stuff. It's a truly great Pokemon and it has seen a huge rise in usage from what I've seen. I'm supporting moving it up to A, but A- is good as well.

Indifferent on Cresselia, probably too biased o3o.

 

[jbtc10]

Staraptors Adamant Scarf set is probably its best set though imo, because of how much better it is against offense than the Band set, allowing you to check many more things. Raptor is pretty frail so it becomes a ton less useful if it can't outspeed the thing in front of it and KO it before it can KO you. Its ability perfectly compliments the Scarf by giving you a deadly combination of high speed and power and allows it to also act as a pretty damn good revenge killer, being able to kill dangerous things like +1 Zard X, Mega Gyara and Mega T-Tar after a slight bit of damage. While it does have a bit of competition from banded Talonflame, Raptor has some good advantages like still being more powerful, only being 2x weak to rocks which allows it to come in a lot more often and spam its STABs better, and having access to Close Combat for arguably better coverage.

The band set is better against defensive teams and is definitely a scary powerhouse, but can still somewhat struggle against those teams anyway (unless you have team support such as a trapper like Magnezone or Goth) because Skarmory still walls pretty well. B definitely, B+ possibly, because it's good partner and even a potential alternative to Talonflame.

If Toxicroak is to be ranked, I'd say it would be worthy of about D, because things like Arcanine which have a single, volatile niche are there and the niche of those mons seem to be about on par with Croaks. Toxicroak does suffer a little bit though in terms of switching into Keldeo because it can get caught in the middle of HP Flying which is meant for nailing things like Venu.

Finally, I don't like the Tyranitar drop either, and seems to have come out of nowhere. We all know why it's good and it has a ton of different sets which are all really effective. It's not worse overall than Mega T-Tar, if anything the contrary is more likely to be true.

 

[Numera]

B Rank: "Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

Where are these notable flaws? Where is this bit more support Diggersby needs according to B Rank?

A Rank: "Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits."

That, my friend, is Diggersby. It does require less support than most others and it can sweep/wallbreak significant portions of the meta (SD LO is 6-0ing 5-0ing Stall: Being able to sweep stall so easily is also nice. There's not a lot that can switch into this thing is the first place). Diggersby does NOT need to move down from B- for a long time.

Terrakion for A+

There's a lot of neat things Terrakion can do in the metagame. Be it a suicide lead or even a sub SD set. Terrakion is fantastic at everything it does: Seriously, what actually enjoys switching in on this nightmare? I easily see Terrakion as a top tier threat and think it does indeed deserve A+ Rank. This Aegislash ban has really helped it shine.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Nominating Weavile for B (Weavile will SURELY be B+ material in my book once M-Mawile gets the boot)

I'll just quote what this person said and add that Weavile no longer has to rely on 50/50s to beat Aegislash.

I'll give it one more shot to try and convince you guys to move Weavile to B. In my opinion, Weavile is much more similar to Lucario (both B) than something like Mega-Aerodactly or Rhyperior (both B-) in terms of viability. Like Mega-Heracross and Lucario, Weavile has a great offensive presence and is hard to switch into. With its blazing fast speed and good coverage between its dual STABs not many pokemon want to switch in or stay in on this little guy. Unfortunately, Weavile is frail and can't really switch into much. However, Lucario has the same flaw and is still B rank despite being slower and weaker than Weavile. Like Lucario, Weavile also has Swords Dance and priority to augment its offensive presence. On the flip side, Weavile isn't really outclassed by anything unlike Mega-Aerodactly and Rhyperior. Mega-Aerodactly faces stiff competition from pretty much every offensive mega, such as gyrados, tyranitar, charizard, pinsir, medicham, heracross, etc. There arent many good reasons to justify its use over the megas on this list. In the same vein, Rhyperior is often outclassed as a stealth rock and a bird counter by Tyranitar and Heatran, who are some of the best pokemon in the tier. Weavile isnt severely outclassed by anything in this way and is more viable than its counterparts in B-. Due to other positive traits that Weavile has that I mentioned earlier in this post, and in my previous post (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread-v2.3502428/page-136#post-5537484), I believe that Weavile is more viable than the other members in its rank and should therefore be moved up to B.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Mega Gardy's fine in A-. It still has a really bad matchup against offense, really bad physical bulk, and has like 1 set. Mega Cham has priority (really shit priority but it's better than nothing), is far more versatile, and hits harder. Mega Cross is a bulky mofo who can survive shit like LO Latios' Psyshock.

Mega Gardevoir's versatility and unpredictability lie in the fact that it can choose several useful support/status moves: Taunt to shut Stall down, Will-O-Wisp to cripple physical attackers on the switch-in and Calm Mind to attain insane special power. As someone has mentioned before me, Mega Gardevoir brings a lot of synergy to teams with its type and pairs really well with some of the tier's powerhouses, such as Tyranitar and Keldeo. Talonflame's a problem, but it can't switch in if you have your Rocks up, which ensures many OHKOes if Mega Gardevoir runs Modest, which is definitely affordable, as several Pokémon in the base 100 Speed group don't run full investment or a +Speed nature. Additionally, it's incredibly easy to slap on teams that need something to wreck Stall efficiently and could use a Pokémon with good defensive synergy. Despite having meh physical bulk, Will-O-Wisp helps the issue while providing support for the team, so that a Pokémon like Dragonite can set up on the burned Pokémon. Don't forget that it has a wonderful base 135 Special Defense stat, so it can definitely survive strong special moves like Specs Keldeo's Hydro Pump, then OHKO with Hyper Voice. As grassycow has stated, Mega Gardevoir is one of the largest threats to the Eons, being able to switch in on non-boosted or -Specs Latios and p much all variants of Latias, then OHKO with Hyper Voice. Stall is its bitch and its flexibility makes it useful in many situations. All it needs is fainted revenge killers, which isn't hard to do considering its amazing synergy with many Pokémon in the OU tier. Mega Gardevoir deserves to be in A.

 

[Karxrida]

Jukain could you please reiterate your points about why Gardy shouldn't be A (that was you right)? You're way more eloquent than I am.

Nominating Weavile for B (Weavile will SURELY be B+ material in my book once M-Mawile gets the boot)
I'll just quote what this person said and add that Weavile no longer has to rely on 50/50s to beat Aegislash.

Weavile still has a ton of problems.

• Like the post you quoted pointed out it, it has terrible bulk and almost no switch-on opportunities. Even resisted hits hurt it.
• It's pretty much outclassed by Bisharp as a Dark-type sweeper/Knock Off spammer/Pursuit trapper.
• It's not hard to revenge kill because of said terrible bulk, an SR weakness, and (usually) Life Orb recoil. You're forced to use Ice Shard against every Garchomp you see in case it's Scarfed, and it can survive LO boosted ones 25% of the time :/
• Mamoswine exists for all your Ice Shard needs and has a way better typing. It can even lure out and KO Rotom-W, beat Quagsire, revenge [insert non-Zard X dragon here], and clean late-game with one set.
• The speed really doesn't matter when many boosting sweepers outspeed you and can even set-up on you like (Mega) Gyarados, Mega Scizor, Mega Mawile, and Mega Zard X.
• Speaking of which, Weavile has bad match-ups with 4/6 of the S-Ranks and a ton of A+ and A ranks.

 

[blaargathon]

Oh look, Chesnaught dropped to B-. Called it.

Anyways, definitely agree with raising Terrakion to A+ (maybe even S?). With Aegi gone it's a lot harder to switch into this thing's attacks. I can't really say anymore, as everyone has said all that needs to be said. You could almost call him a physical Keldeo, bar the Water type.

Also, how about raising Slowbro, King of UU, to A- rank? He has excellent physical bulk, his typing doesn't bite him in the ass, he gets reliable recovery in both Regenerator AND Slack-Off, and he has a very good support movepool. The set I use in OU is Slack Off / Scald / Ice Beam / Fire Blast, and it hasn't let me down once as a physical wall. I find that pairing Slowbro with Chansey yields the best results.

 

[kabbes]

What about Slowbro with the same bold defensive spread but with AV + 4 attacks? Any good as a mixed wall playing hit and run, using regenerator to patch up health?

 

[Flamer]

Terrakion is a really underrated threat that finally has a chance to shine thanks in part to Aegi being gone. It is surpisingly versatile considering its sparse movepool, and has several effective sets. My personal favourite is the Sash SR+Taunt lead set, which is similar to LO SR Deo-S in that it still has stuff to do after laying SR and has enough speed and power to either weaken walls or clean late game. Rock+Fighting has pretty amazing coverage together and allows the rest of a set some leeway, including the odd HP Ice for Gliscor and Lando-T. Unlike the Aegi days, Terrakion actually has a free spot to use on either a more accurate Rock move or a utility move like Substitute, SD or SR.

pls move to A+

 

[Nabilla Benattia]

I'd like to nominate Lucario to move down to B- or even C+ rank. It's not an efficient sweeper in today's meta, with an over reliance on extreme speed to handle offense and many balance threats. It can sweep on occasion but it rarely has the opportunity due to it's frailness and lack of speed. Lucario needs a lot of support to function because it struggles to find free turns to set up, needs anything even slightly fast to be put into espeed range, and needs whatever it chooses to be walled by taken out. It requires too much support for the b ranking, I think B- is more fitting.

 

[dadoux]

"Slowbro is a fantastic defensive Pokemon now that is basically the #1 switch in to Charizard-X"

Besides a twave set, i don't really see what slowbro can do to cripple even a bit Charx, it's basically a set-up fodder for him, there is nothing Slowbro has to prevent CharX to set-up some more DD/SD and rek your stall team.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

"Slowbro is a fantastic defensive Pokemon now that is basically the #1 switch in to Charizard-X"

Besides a twave set, i don't really see what slowbro can do to cripple even a bit Charx, it's basically a set-up fodder for him, there is nothing Slowbro has to prevent CharX to set-up some more DD/SD and rek your stall team.

Slowbro has access to Foul Play.

 

[dadoux]

Oh rly? I wasn't aware of that lol

Still:
+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 387-456 (98.2 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 289-342 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 0- Atk Slowbro Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 208-245 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0- Atk Slowbro Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 156-184 (52.3 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Jukain could you please reiterate your points about why Gardy shouldn't be A (that was you right)? You're way more eloquent than I am.


Weavile still has a ton of problems.

• Like the post you quoted pointed out it, it has terrible bulk and almost no switch-on opportunities. Even resisted hits hurt it.
• It's pretty much outclassed by Bisharp as a Dark-type sweeper/Knock Off spammer/Pursuit trapper.
• It's not hard to revenge kill because of said terrible bulk, an SR weakness, and (usually) Life Orb recoil. You're forced to use Ice Shard against every Garchomp you see in case it's Scarfed, and it can survive LO boosted ones 25% of the time :/
• Mamoswine exists for all your Ice Shard needs and has a way better typing. It can even lure out and KO Rotom-W, beat Quagsire, revenge [insert non-Zard X dragon here], and clean late-game with one set.
• The speed really doesn't matter when many boosting sweepers outspeed you and can even set-up on you like (Mega) Gyarados, Mega Scizor, Mega Mawile, and Mega Zard X.
• Speaking of which, Weavile has bad match-ups with 4/6 of the S-Ranks and a ton of A+ and A ranks.

1) OK.
2) Weavile can kill Terrakion, Heatran, Thundurus (although it risks eating a Thunder Wave), Tyranitar and Landorus much more reliably than Bisharp, which is nice.
3) OK. But do remember Garchomp is OHKOed with SR in play. And neither Bisharp is THAT hard to revenge kill.
4) Mamo cannot really lure Rotom-W since it Freeze-Dry fails against specially defensive variants and then Mamo risks eating a Hydro Pump. Please explain how can it beat Quag... Weavile can also clean late-game, though admittedly it needs slightly more support.
5) I agree with this and it's one of the main reasons Weavile can't get to something like A rank. Mega Zard X loses with SR in play, though, and Mega Gyarados needs to predict between Ice Punch and Low Kick
6) OK.

I also STILL don't get why was Starmie raised just because it lost one counter... I think it should be moved back down to C+ because I don't think it really has a place in this metagame, what with Excadrill, Mega Blastoise, Defog users and Greninja. Read pages 193-194 or something where I posted why imo it should stay there.

 

[captainpokemon]

Hey, I'm not as versed as many of you in competitive play, but I would really like to know why Kyurem-B is in the A- rank. an in depth reply would be highly appreciated.

 

[Mr James Grey]

I'm nominating Tyranitar back to A+. Dropping Tyranitar to A was a mistake, alexwolf how the hell is it not a good SR setter? it can beat the common deffogers like Skarmory, Mandibuzz and the Lati twins with Stone Ege, Fire Blast and Crunch/Pursuit. Not only that but it has an amazing ability in Sandstream turning Excadrill into a huge threat and it also breaks sashes and does damage every turn to Pokemon that are not immune to sand damage. It provides nice resistances like flying and fire and it's Special Defense lets it even tank things like Greninja's LO Hydro Pump. It also has Pursuit to weaken stuff or killing stuff switching out. Tyranitar is so versatile, it has many effective sets ranging from Scarf, Band, Assault Vest, Stealth Rock setter and has the stats and movepool to threaten things. There's a reason Tyranitar is used so much because it's just that good. I'd even argue for S-rank because it's so easy to fit on a team and brings a lot to the table.

I'd like to second this, adding that it's impossible know what moveset it's using before you see them all used. Seriously, this thing has moves coming out it's ass, and the best part is, it can use them all, physical and special. Also, it's 4x weakness to fighting has largely been mitigated by fairies. Definately A+ material imo, and I wouldn't argue against a move to S, either.

 

[RotomPoison]

Hey, I'm not as versed as many of you in competitive play, but I would really like to know why Kyurem-B is in the A- rank. an in depth reply would be highly appreciated.

It's a powerful mixed attacker with a pretty good Speed tier and no direct counters thanks to a combination of Outrage, Fusion Bolt, Ice Beam, Earth Power, and other moves along with a somewhat changeable EV spread. If you want a more in depth answer you should probably ask if you want to know whether it's not higher or lower, since it will be easier to compare to other Pokemon in that case

 

[captainpokemon]

It's a powerful mixed attacker with a pretty good Speed tier and no direct counters thanks to a combination of Outrage, Fusion Bolt, Ice Beam, Earth Power, and other moves along with a somewhat changeable EV spread. If you want a more in depth answer you should probably ask if you want to know whether it's not higher or lower, since it will be easier to compare to other Pokemon in that case

yeah, sorry for not clarifying. I want to know what it is not higher.

alexwolf EDIT: Removed the part about Ubers, because this is the OU forum.

 

[ShrekisOgre]

Terrakion is really amazing pokemon in the OU tier, even if it comes to the sash lead or LO attacker they both are amazing sets, sash terrakion pretty much a good replacement for suicide lead deoxys-s and its suits on offensive teams very well, also its not forced to use eq which it can now use either taunt or sword dance so terrakion is pretty much a great lead, next up its the lo attacking terrakion which i will admit its scary, 108 speed is very threating that has the speed as keldeo which means it can outspeed many pokemon, LO Terrakion can use alot of moves along with close combat, stone edge, hidden power ice, x scissor, sword dance and quick attack which is a very good move pool and coverage.

Also terrakion has 2 more sets, the choice scarf set and the choice band set tbh while i would rather use the other 2 sets these 2 sets are still threatening, with scarf set terrakion can be a good revenge killer and to out speed latios, latias, starmie and greninja while the choice band set packs real huge punches and not many pokemon wants to switch into however u gotta be careful that u predict right

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 153-180 (42 - 49.4%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 267-315 (83.4 - 98.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 176-208 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 306-360 (85.4 - 100.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

all sets are very threatening, aegi is no more, has 4 sets, incredible speed and good coverage i belive is enough for terrakion to be A+ rank

 

[Salemance]

1) OK.
2) Weavile can kill Terrakion, Heatran, Thundurus (although it risks eating a Thunder Wave), Tyranitar and Landorus much more reliably than Bisharp, which is nice.
3) OK. But do remember Garchomp is OHKOed with SR in play. And neither Bisharp is THAT hard to revenge kill.
4) Mamo cannot really lure Rotom-W since it Freeze-Dry fails against specially defensive variants and then Mamo risks eating a Hydro Pump. Please explain how can it beat Quag... Weavile can also clean late-game, though admittedly it needs slightly more support.
5) I agree with this and it's one of the main reasons Weavile can't get to something like A rank. Mega Zard X loses with SR in play, though, and Mega Gyarados needs to predict between Ice Punch and Low Kick
6) OK.

I also STILL don't get why was Starmie raised just because it lost one counter... I think it should be moved back down to C+ because I don't think it really has a place in this metagame, what with Excadrill, Mega Blastoise, Defog users and Greninja. Read pages 193-194 or something where I posted why imo it should stay there.

Just of a state of my confusion, you state Mamo using Freeze Dry and ask how it can beat Quag in the same point there bud. Freeze Dry is x4 effective on Quag after all (something that is a pain to have to recall when you run into the damn things).

 

[Karxrida]

1) OK.
2) Weavile can kill Terrakion, Heatran, Thundurus (although it risks eating a Thunder Wave), Tyranitar and Landorus much more reliably than Bisharp, which is nice.
3) OK. But do remember Garchomp is OHKOed with SR in play. And neither Bisharp is THAT hard to revenge kill.
4) Mamo cannot really lure Rotom-W since it Freeze-Dry fails against specially defensive variants and then Mamo risks eating a Hydro Pump. Please explain how can it beat Quag... Weavile can also clean late-game, though admittedly it needs slightly more support.
5) I agree with this and it's one of the main reasons Weavile can't get to something like A rank. Mega Zard X loses with SR in play, though, and Mega Gyarados needs to predict between Ice Punch and Low Kick
6) OK.

I also STILL don't get why was Starmie raised just because it lost one counter... I think it should be moved back down to C+ because I don't think it really has a place in this metagame, what with Excadrill, Mega Blastoise, Defog users and Greninja. Read pages 193-194 or something where I posted why imo it should stay there.

Weavile has to be boosted to beat the things you mentioned in 2, and it has a difficult time setting up.
Bisharp might also be easy to revenge kill but it usually smacks something hard before dying (even resisted +2 Sucker Punches do like 50% to Terrakion), and trying to play around Sucker Punch can be a crapshot since it might decide to go with Knock Off or Iron Head instead.
Do people even use SpD Rotom-W? Physically Defensive is the standard set since it can check more stuff.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Weavile has to be boosted to beat the things you mentioned in 2, and it has a difficult time setting up.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 593-702 (173.3 - 205.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 307-361 (79.5 - 93.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 218-257 (72.6 - 85.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 354-416 (109.5 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 660-780 (206.2 - 243.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

ice punch/ice shard/knock off/low kick is the set I run and weavile's best set imo

 

[alexwolf]

"Slowbro is a fantastic defensive Pokemon now that is basically the #1 switch in to Charizard-X"

Besides a twave set, i don't really see what slowbro can do to cripple even a bit Charx, it's basically a set-up fodder for him, there is nothing Slowbro has to prevent CharX to set-up some more DD/SD and rek your stall team.

Toxic takes care of non SD Mega Char X.

Hey, I'm not as versed as many of you in competitive play, but I would really like to know why Kyurem-B is in the A- rank. an in depth reply would be highly appreciated.

It's in A- rank and not any higher because of its Stealth Rock weakness, plethora of common weaknesses carried by most faster Pokemon (Rock, Fighting, Steel, Dragon), its mediocre Speed which causes it to be outsped by most offensive Pokemon, and competition with other wallbreakers such as Mega Mawile, Landorus, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Heracross, Mega Gardevoir, etc.

I'm nominating Tyranitar back to A+. Dropping Tyranitar to A was a mistake, alexwolf how the hell is it not a good SR setter? it can beat the common deffogers like Skarmory, Mandibuzz and the Lati twins with Stone Ege, Fire Blast and Crunch/Pursuit. Not only that but it has an amazing ability in Sandstream turning Excadrill into a huge threat and it also breaks sashes and does damage every turn to Pokemon that are not immune to sand damage. It provides nice resistances like flying and fire and it's Special Defense lets it even tank things like Greninja's LO Hydro Pump. It also has Pursuit to weaken stuff or killing stuff switching out. Tyranitar is so versatile, it has many effective sets ranging from Scarf, Band, Assault Vest, Stealth Rock setter and has the stats and movepool to threaten things. There's a reason Tyranitar is used so much because it's just that good. I'd even argue for S-rank because it's so easy to fit on a team and brings a lot to the table.

Without Speed EVs, Tyranitar is not beating Mandibuzz, which can just stall out Stone Edge's PPs and doesn't care about Ice Beam, and then slowly KO it with Foul Play. I mean, Tyranitar is an ok Stealth Rock user as it can beat some common Defog / Rapid Spin users, but then it also struggles against some other common Defog / Rapid Spin users (Excadrill, Mew, and Mandibuzz). Also, after Tyranitar sets up sand and Stealth Rock, it's utility is limited, unlike other great SR setters, such as Heatran for example, which takes care of a plethora of threats (Latios, Latias, Mega Mawile, Clefable, Mega Scizor, and a ton of defensive threats), has much better survivability, and is a very effective status spreader. Yes, Tyranitar can check a lot of Pokemon, such as Talonflame, Heatran, DD Charizard X, Latios, Latias, and Dragonite, but without any kind of recovery (Smooth Rock) it's incredibly easy to wear down to the point were each of those Pokemon only has to land one hit before being able to get past Tyranitar later on the game (Mega Char X using EQ on the switch, Talonflame using WoW / U-turn on the switch, Heatran with WoW / Toxic). Furthermore, Tyranitar is prone to all kind of status, which makes dealing with Fire-types, for example, much harder in practice. Finally low Speed and all that common weaknesses really do a number to Tyranitar's viability.

As for Tyranitar's versatility... Yes it's versatile, as it has three effective sets (SR setter, Scarf, and Band), and quite a bit of variety in terms of moves on some of its sets. However, there are other versatile threats in A rank, such as Dragonite (Band, DD, SpD) and Gliscor (SpD, SubToxic, physically defensive), and considering how each single of those sets is no more than A rank worthy, Tyranitar can't go to A+.

Basically, Tyranitar's biggest assets on a team are providing sand, Pursuit, setting up SR, and checking some threats. However, it isn't a reliable check to most of the threats it checks due to its plethora of weaknesses (Each FlyingSpam member has a way to cripple Ttar on the switch, Latios and Latias can fuck up Tyranitar with Hidden Power Fighting or Surf + Draco Meteor, and Fire-types also can easily cripple Tyranitar if they predict it switching in), sometimes it isn't a reliable SR setter, and sometimes Pursuit support is not needed (against teams without Latios, Latias, and other Psychic-types basically). So, the only thing that Tyranitar constantly provides that matters is sand support, and while all the other tools of Tyranitar alongside its versatility definitely make it a good Pokemon, they are not enough for A+.

And if it wasn't obvious, i didn't make this change by myself, i first consulted a number of proved good players and most of them agreed with this change, so don't think it was out of the blue just because it wasn't discussed in this thread.

 

[procrastinat]

I'd like to nominate Lucario to move down to B- or even C+ rank. It's not an efficient sweeper in today's meta, with an over reliance on extreme speed to handle offense and many balance threats. It can sweep on occasion but it rarely has the opportunity due to it's frailness and lack of speed. Lucario needs a lot of support to function because it struggles to find free turns to set up, needs anything even slightly fast to be put into espeed range, and needs whatever it chooses to be walled by taken out. It requires too much support for the b ranking, I think B- is more fitting.

Lucario is one of very few sweepers that DGAF about talonflame or thundurus once it is at +2, and I also fail to see how a reliance on Extremespeed is a problem. Bisharp has to rely on sucker punch to beat anything faster than it, and that's simply a 50/50.

Lucario also has the ability to choose what walls it, which you mentioned, making it extremely unpredictable. There are top-tier sweepers that struggle to find set-up opportunity, notably mega-pinsir, the key to setting up is to scare something out, threatening to KO it, and set-up.

Lucario's bulk is simply bad, but it's typing is still pretty good, and it has the ability to pick apart weakened offensive pokemon without a boost, and smash slower things with close combat.

He also recently lost one of his best counters in aegislash, freeing up that critical last move slot somewhat.

Lucario should stay in B. His ability to pressure offense with extremespeed and defensive teams with Close Combat, as well as busting through some pokemon that would put other sweepers in a dead stop makes him good enough for B rank, nothing more.

 

[Karxrida]

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 593-702 (173.3 - 205.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 307-361 (79.5 - 93.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 218-257 (72.6 - 85.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 354-416 (109.5 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 660-780 (206.2 - 243.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

ice punch/ice shard/knock off/low kick is the set I run and weavile's best set imo

Okay fair enough. I never knew Terrakion was that much of a fatass.

I still think B is too high mostly because of its match-ups with the rest of S.