Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[captainpokemon]

alexwolf merci for the clarification.

 

[Jukain]

wait wait wait was tyranitar really dropped to a LOL

this was the #4 used pokemon in the tier in wcop and for a reason...the tars need to be together. scarftar is the best pursuiter in the tier and excellent check to bird spam among plenty of other things. the smooth rock set is a very customizable, solid rocks setter that lure things like landt and skarmory while outspeeding the likes of bisharp if you need it to or a reliable latis talonflame check/trapper THAT brings sand for one of the most threatening playstyles in the tier, sand offense. this pokemon is literally the reason sand offense can exist (almost nobody uses hippowdon on sand offense the literal definition of passive). ttar in a is ridiculous.

 

[Nabilla Benattia]

Lucario is one of very few sweepers that DGAF about talonflame or thundurus once it is at +2, and I also fail to see how a reliance on Extremespeed is a problem. Bisharp has to rely on sucker punch to beat anything faster than it, and that's simply a 50/50.

Lucario also has the ability to choose what walls it, which you mentioned, making it extremely unpredictable. There are top-tier sweepers that struggle to find set-up opportunity, notably mega-pinsir, the key to setting up is to scare something out, threatening to KO it, and set-up.

Lucario's bulk is simply bad, but it's typing is still pretty good, and it has the ability to pick apart weakened offensive pokemon without a boost, and smash slower things with close combat.

He also recently lost one of his best counters in aegislash, freeing up that critical last move slot somewhat.

Lucario should stay in B. His ability to pressure offense with extremespeed and defensive teams with Close Combat, as well as busting through some pokemon that would put other sweepers in a dead stop makes him good enough for B rank, nothing more.

I agree with everything you said in theory, but in practice the lack of bulk and the fact that even though it can chose it's counters, they are generally counters, without ice punch it's hard walled by gliscor without billet punch it auto loses to almost any fast threat that resists normal etc. b- is a good place for a mon that does have niches like you said but a lot of problems interfering with its niche in my opinion.

 

[Gloating]

Yeah Tyranitar can be EV'd to however you want to fit your team needs, Jukain pretty much said everything that needed to be said. Tyranitar needs to go back to A+ as seeing the amount of likes Jukain's post and mine got and other posts saying Tyranitar should be A+ I think an overwhelming majority agrees.

 

[Ropeburn]

I don't believe Tyranitar should not be separated from its mega at all. Part of the reason that Mega Tyranitar is so godlike is that its base form is also extremely viable. It's not like with Charizard, where if you see it..you KNOW it's the mega. It checks so much shit, it provides sand support, it has an expansive movepool, can run so many items, is a potential mega, and is even a great lead.

Frankly, I don't see what changed for Tyranitar that convinces me that a drop was necessary. Aegislash, one of the pokemon Tyranitar struggled to deal with is gone, and now the Lati@s twins have spike in usage...and guess who literally feasts upon them.

Tyranitar is A+ because of it's amazing support that it provides. On every team I've ever built on Tyranitar, he is literally the one pokemon that ALWAYS does something. Whether he sets up Sand Stream up for Exca, Pursuit trapping Lati@s, or providing scarf support, or just setting up rocks. Who exactly was arguing for it to drop in the first place?

 

[Baharoth]

As far as i remember the main reason why tar was moved up to a+ was because of Sand Rush teams where he is the primary choice as a sand setter forming an incredibly strong core with excadrill and imo the viability of Sand Rush hasnt changed at all, if anything its gotten more viable.

But even if we put Sand Rush aside, ttar is still an amazing mon and incredibly versatile. The band set is strong as hell, scarf is a decent revengekiller, it might not be the fastest out there but its bulk somewhat compensates that. And probably its biggest strength is his ability to pursuit trap. Its the most reliable choice to deal with the Latis as he is the only trapper who isnt ohkoed by their coverage moves, with the Latis now beeing more viable than ever the need for a good pursuit trapper is higher than ever, all the more with Bisharp losing alot of its value with the removal of Deo-Ds hazards and Aegislash.

Imo dropping it was a mistake and it should go back to A+.

 

[alexwolf]

Why exactly was Tyranitar dropped to A? Tyranitar should not be separated from its mega at all. Part of the reason that Mega Tyranitar is so godlike is that its base form is also extremely viable. It's not like with Charizard, where if you see it..you KNOW it's the mega. It checks so much shit, it provides sand support, it has an expansive movepool, can run so many items, is a potential mega, and is even a great lead.

Frankly, I don't see what changed for Tyranitar that convinces me that a drop was necessary. Aegislash, one of the pokemon Tyranitar struggled to deal with is gone, and now the Lati@s twins have spike in usage...and guess who literally feasts upon them.

Tyranitar is A+ because of it's amazing support that it provides. On every team I've ever built on Tyranitar, he is literally the one pokemon that ALWAYS does something. Whether he sets up Sand Stream up for Exca, Pursuit trapping Lati@s, or providing scarf support, or just setting up rocks. Who exactly was arguing for it to drop in the first place?

Mega Tyranitar being great has nothing to do with its regular Forme also being great. Yeah, you might manage to get a chance to boost on a forced switch, bluffing a Scarf Tyranitar or whatever, but those scenarios are rare and not worth taking into account.

And Tyranitar struggled with Aegislash? Tyranitar commonly carried both Fire Blast (to get by King's Shield and hit Steel-types) and Crunch, so it could 2HKO Aegislash, while surviving Sacred Sword with a physically defensive spread. While Tyranitar was a shaky check to Aegislash, in no way did Tyranitar struggle with Aegislash.

I already explained that nobody argued for Tyranitar to drop in this thread, but a lot of players i talked with wanted this to happen, so it did.

Finally, one of the reasons that regular Tyranitar is not as great as it used to be is because a lot of Pokemon it used to hard check or counter adapted to deal with it, such as Mega Charizard X (both SD + Tailwind and WoW mess up Tyranitar), Talonflame (WoW and less CB sets), and even Latios, which doesn't need to carry Hidden Power Fire or Earthquake to deal with Aegislash anymore, and can carry Hidden Power Fighting or Surf, both of which mess up Tyranitar badly.

I may be underselling Sand Stream's support or Tyranitar's offensive prowess, so let's see some more Tyranitar discussion with hopefully good arguments, to determine where Tyranitar really belongs.

 

[Gloating]

and even Latios, which doesn't need to carry Hidden Power Fire or Earthquake to deal with Aegislash anymore, and can carry Hidden Power Fighting or Surf, both of which mess up Tyranitar badly.

This can go either way because what if I predict Latios to use Surf or HP Fighting and just stay in with whatever I have in? The fact that Tyranitar is in your team makes them think twice before spamming Draco Meteor or going for Defog/Psyshock. Tyranitar can take Surfs anyways and can take an HP Fighting or multiple if it's vest.

Also:
-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 254-300 (70.7 - 83.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock so Mega Charizard X has to be at 100% and even then it can't Roost as Stone Edge will do more than 50% so it's forced out.

Talonflame just get's OHKO'd outright if it tries to WoW.

So both are taking a risk WoWing this thing.

 

[procrastinat]

I agree with everything you said in theory, but in practice the lack of bulk and the fact that even though it can chose it's counters, they are generally counters, without ice punch it's hard walled by gliscor without billet punch it auto loses to almost any fast threat that resists normal etc. b- is a good place for a mon that does have niches like you said but a lot of problems interfering with its niche in my opinion.

The only problems you listed that interfere with it's performance are it's 4MSS and lack of bulk, the first of which is actually a benefit, as you can choose your move based on your team's needs, and the second has never really stopped Lucario from doing his job. Lucario has always been a Late-Game sweeper, and a damn good one too. If your opponent's team is heavily weakened, all you need is to get lucario in safely, whether by double switch or sacking or anything else, and it can be gg right there. It can outpace practically any opposing priority in OU and finish off the pokemon before it gets the chance to use it. Nothing completely eclipses Lucario in what it can do, and the support it provides can be invaluable. Lucario's niche is large enough to justify being in B rank.

Moving on...

Staraptor needs to move up, I don't care if it moves to B or all the way to B+, but after the banning of slash, The Pigeon of Divine Wind lost it's best (and possibly only) counter. This thing is so powerful and ridiculously easy to use, the comprehensive guide to using it is "Click Brave Bird. If there is a somewhat bulky electric type present, click Double-Edge. If there is a rock or steel type, click Close Combat."

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Time for another nomination!

->B

I believe Entei to be worthy of B rank. I believe it is B not because of its AV set, but because of its CB set. The CB set has a combination of being able to wall break, support, and clean all in one slot. It's able to wall breaker with Sacred Fire, which also makes it incredibly hard to switch into, as most of its checks/counters are physically based. (Azumarill, Garchomp, Gyarados etc.) by virtue of the fact it can spread burns, it is a decent support, albeit not a great one. It is also able to clean with Extreme Speed, which can also be used to pick off weakened threats. Entei also possesses decent bulk: 115/85/75 is not to shabby for an offensive mon, especially considering it can spread burns with Sacred Fire. And comparing it to the B mons, it is either as good or better. As per usual, I need to make comparisons, and the best comparison to be made is Conkeldurr. Both are bulky pokemon with high attack stats. Entei has the clear advantage of speed, power, and move pool. Conkeldurr has the advantage of bulk, lack of SR weakness, and resistances. I should also note that Entei faces competition from Dragonite: Both are bulky CB users with access to Extreme Speed. Dragonite is clearly better when it comes to power and bulk, but Entei has the advantage of spammable STAB and speed. It is also worth noting that Entei is immune to burns, which gives it even greater incentive to spam its STAB. After it has broken down the opposing team with Sacred Fire, burns from Sacred Fire, and (hopefully) SR, it can clean up with Extreme Speed. I personally believe Entei can rise to B. I feel it is on par with most of the B mons when it comes to performance. Of course, I don't expect everyone to agree, but its worth a shot, right?

Also, something that I feel is long overdue:

->B

Victini is worthy of B because it can check/counter a unique range of threats. StallTini is a phenomenal stall breaker with great checking potential. With Will-O-Wisp, it is able to somewhat circumvent its Pursuit weakness, as it is faster than Bisharp and it doesn't want to risk taking a V-Create. Did I mention this things ridiculous power even without a boosting item? V-Create is the strongest non-sacrificial move in the game. After STAB, it has 270 base power after STAB. It literally smokes any non-resist and dents most resists, which are taken care of by Bolt Strike. It, of course, needs to be compared to something, and I feel like it is comparable to Mega Aerodactyl. Both are great general checks to the meta, can stall break quite well, and can beat big threats. Victini has the advantage of bulk, lack of weaknesses to priority(well sucker punch, but you can burn users of sucker punch)and power. Aerodactyl has speed and recovery. I feel Victini is B, as is Entei.


Also support Staraptor to B.

 

[alexwolf]

This can go either way because what if I predict Latios to use Surf or HP Fighting and just stay in with whatever I have in? The fact that Tyranitar is in your team makes them think twice before spamming Draco Meteor or going for Defog/Psyshock. Tyranitar can take Surfs anyways and can take an HP Fighting or multiple if it's vest.

Also:
-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 254-300 (70.7 - 83.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock so Mega Charizard X has to be at 100% and even then it can't Roost as Stone Edge will do more than 50% so it's forced out.

Talonflame just get's OHKO'd outright if it tries to WoW.

So both are taking a risk WoWing this thing.

You WoW Ttar on the switch.

 

[Pikachuu]

I agree with Victini moving up as I have a lot of experience in using him, it's a really underrated threat. It's also great against Stall because it beats the Chansey/Skarmory/Quagsire core with V-create and Grass Knot. It's great base 100 speed lets it still outspeed a lot of things after a powerful V-create.
Also support Tyranitar to A+ and Staraptor to B.

 

[Nabilla Benattia]

Mega Tyranitar being great has nothing to do with its regular Forme also being great. Yeah, you might manage to get a chance to boost on a forced switch, bluffing a Scarf Tyranitar or whatever, but those scenarios are rare and not worth taking into account.

And Tyranitar struggled with Aegislash? Tyranitar commonly carried both Fire Blast (to get by King's Shield and hit Steel-types) and Crunch, so it could 2HKO Aegislash, while surviving Sacred Sword with a physically defensive spread. While Tyranitar was a shaky check to Aegislash, in no way did Tyranitar struggle with Aegislash.

I already explained that nobody argued for Tyranitar to drop in this thread, but a lot of players i talked with wanted this to happen, so it did.

Finally, one of the reasons that regular Tyranitar is not as great as it used to be is because a lot of Pokemon it used to hard check or counter adapted to deal with it, such as Mega Charizard X (both SD + Tailwind and WoW mess up Tyranitar), Talonflame (WoW and less CB sets), and even Latios, which doesn't need to carry Hidden Power Fire or Earthquake to deal with Aegislash anymore, and can carry Hidden Power Fighting or Surf, both of which mess up Tyranitar badly.

I may be underselling Sand Stream's support or Tyranitar's offensive prowess, so let's see some more Tyranitar discussion with hopefully good arguments, to determine where Tyranitar really belongs.

I'd argue that even if it doesn't
Check the meta as well as it used to (and I'm sure some may disagree but I don't have an opinion in this) it deserves the rank for its support qualities- it's the best pursuit trapper in the game, slaughtering keldeo terrakion and just about anything walled by latias' checks and counters while also beating birds (will o isn't quite enough as illustrated above) and being a decent revenge killer is extremely important support. It's more defensive set still checks a very good chunk of the meta and sets up rocks reliably as well as creating sand offense essentially. It's almost more important than dyoxes (I'm sorry I haven't a clue how it's spelled) was to hyper offense because there's only one alternative and it really isn't an offensive pokemon at all. It does all this while still posing an offensive threat, and can tailor it's move set to fit any need for a team. I'd argue that these supporting roles are enough to warrant A+ for the Goliath.

 

[chive]

I may be underselling Sand Stream's support or Tyranitar's offensive prowess, so let's see some more Tyranitar discussion with hopefully good arguments, to determine where Tyranitar really belongs.

One thing I feel hasn't been stressed enough is TTars ability to beat common pokes that would otherwise wall or beat it. Both Ferrothorn and Gliscor are able to 2HKO it while the standard physical TTar can't do jack shit in return, but it 2HKO's Ferro with Flamethrower/Fire Blast and OHKO's Gliscor with Ice Beam after SR, and people have been running both on TTar along with a STAB of choice or EQ. Some might say it has 4MMS, but I'd rather say there's barely a Pokemon that can be tailored to fit the needs of your team as well as TTar. How many Mons can be a reliable Stealth Rock setter, weather inducer, Setup sweeper, tank, birdspam check, Pursuit trapper and have that flexible of a movepool? TTar can do so many things and is good at every single one of them, often performing multiple roles at a time. There's so much room for error when predicting TTar and it can make you pay so dearly. That's A+ if I've ever seen it.

 

[Ender Wiggin]

You WoW Ttar on the switch.

So pokemon that "adapted to beat it" only beat it when it switches in on them and then still are forced out? Not sure I'd call that beating.

 

[alexwolf]

So pokemon that "adapted to beat it" only beat it when it switches in on them and then still are forced out? Not sure I'd call that beating.

Pokemon that Tyranitar used to beat effortlessly can now beat it in the long run or seriously cripple it as it switches in, which is further exploited by Tyranitar's lack of Leftovers. Basically, Tyranitar handles reliably very few threats in today's metagame. Not taking a side btw, just pointing out facts.

 

[Flamer]

Honestly, I feel dropping TTar on the account that the Smooth Rock set isn't the best SR setter is pretty flawed. One of the biggest draws to using TTar (apart from sand support) is the amazing versatility it has. You want an amazing hole puncher and trapper? CB TTar is for you. You want a situational revenge killer and cleaner? ScarfTar is here. Heck, you want a bulky mon that has a gigantic offensive and support movepool (Baril TTar anyone?) that can be tailored to you're every need? TTar could probably fill the role. That wasn't even taking into consideration the overall support that it provides with Sand Stream, becoming the backbone to an entire playstyle that isn't useless outside of setting weather, like Toed, Tales and Snow are.

tl;dr TTar is amazing and very versatile even without sand and if Sand is an A+ playstyle, TTar must be an A+ mon

 

[malomyotismon]

I agree with alex. Tyranitar is not the behemoth he once was, his typing is a complete liability defensively, more so than ever with many of the top threats and all of the s ranked pokemon with some way of crippling or outright killing him. A colourful note of what tyranitar is weak to (mainly a reminder for myself)

x4

x2

x2

x2

x2

x2

x2, thats a whopping 7 weaknesses with 5 maybe 6 being very common attacking types. With tyranitar offerign sand support to his team mates it can be difficult to build around for excess weaknesses especially since excadrill the primary recipient of sand, shares his fighting, ground and water weakness. Compare this to hippowdown, who only shares a water weakness, has access to reliable recover, greta physical bulk which allows him to forfeit leftovers without much fuss for a sand rock and thus extra turns of sand you quickly see tyranitar isn't the sand/supporting god he once was. However he still maintains, very impressive bulk to offset these short comings, the lati are back in the frame and are his favourite ordour in a succulent rabbit sause. sorry for the briefness but I am gettign tiered being up so late XD.

 

[xSilentDeviL]

I believe regular Tyranitar deserves to move back to A+.

Lets look at Mega Pinsir, who currently resides in A+. Pinsir runs one set, the SD set and does so with great success. When you see Pinsir in the team preview, you know what to expect and plan accordingly. This SD set is all it needs, and is for sure by definition, an A+ set.

Now lets look at Heatran and Excadrill. Heatran has the specially defensive set, scarf, and specs. Excadrill has scarf, mold breaker, Stealth rocks set, and the sand rush. While all of these sets are great and viable, I wouldn't consider any of them as dangerous as pinsir's SD set. What puts them all in the same rank is the versatility of Heatran and Excadrill running different sets that each require some different checks. Maybe none of their sets individually deserve an A+ rank, but the pokemon's unpredictability and options as a whole provide just as much threat in the team preview as seeing a pinsir. This all applies to Tyranitar, who may not have one single set the screams A+ as alexwolf has previously stated, but the unpredictability of Ttar having an SR set, an AV set, band, scarf ( or being a mega ttar if using another possible candidate like scizor) etc. is what makes Tyranitar A+ in my book

 

[Clone]

I support TTar to A+

I'm not sure what warranted the drop. he has many sets, including, but not limited to: support PhysDef, support SpDef, Band, Scarf, sash lead, and AV, which gives him versatility other mons would kill for. To top it all off, his movepool is as expansive as the Pacific. He's one of the few mons that gets access to the elemental beams that has the moveslots and special attack stat to use them. Lando giving you trouble? Ice Beam him to death. Scizor or Ferrothorn? Roast em with Fire Blast. He also gets STAB rock moves, which very few pokes in OU can boast, which helps against BirdSpam, something that runs rampant right now. He can also checkmate shit with Pursuit.

Next, his support sets are awesome. PhysDef becomes an excellent mixed tank that can live even super effective hits. He doesn't need much attack investment thanks to his meaty base 134 attack stat, which means he can focus his EVs elsewhere. He's one of 3 pursuit users in OU (Sciz, Tar, and Sharp iirc), and has the ability to not be fucked over by a surprise Surf/EQ/HP Fighting from the Lati twins with a SpDef spread. Speaking of which, Sandstorm raises his SpDef to godly levels when invested, making him almost impenetrable from the special side. Greninja's Hydro Pump is barely a 2HKo with the right investment. This also applies to neutral and resisted hits - they simply can't touch him on the special side. And even uninvested, Tyranitars defense is still great. Base 110 def backed by invested base 100 HP gives him some serious staying power, so long as he isn't eating any fighting type moves. He even has Phys Def sets that simply won't die without the use of super effective moves. With Sand Stream granting him a SpDef increase, he turns into one of the best mixed tanks in the tier.

I know I've mentioned Pursuit twice already, but it needs to be mentioned again. With the banning of Aegislash, the Lati twins went from being really good to really really good, as one of their primary checks was removed. These two are the premier defoggers on offensive teams, and they boast great offensive presence to complete the package. All teams need a way to deal with them, with Pursuit support being the best option. Like previously mentioned, there are only 3 users of that move in OU: Bisharp, (Mega) Scizor, and Tyranitar. Bisharp gets fucked over by HP Fighting on the switch, while Scizor is roasted by HP Fire. Of course, the twins can't run both of these, but they're common choices. ScarfTar is only 2HKOed by HP fighting, which allows him to Checkmate Latios. Latias can't even Touch him and has to Healing Wish to escape Pursuit if she wants to contribute to the team. This doesn't even mention the fact that if either one uses Draco when TTar switches in, then they're checkmated right then and there. Aside from these two, pursuit is useful against things like TFlame locked into Brave Bird, getting chip damage on Chansey, and killing Gengar. I mentioned Scarf earlier, and while a base 61 speed is less than stellar, it's enough to outsped base 115s by one point, allowing TTar to surprise kill things like Mega Pinsir, Thundurus, the aforementioned Latis should they stay in, Gengar, Garchomp, Landorus, and Starmie.

I'd go on, but I (think) I made my point clear. TTar should never have dropped (if anything his mega should have but that's another post for another day) as his versatility surpasses that of Aegislash (who was argued pro ban for being too versatile). From spearheading Sand Offense to surprise killing shit with Scarf, TTar is a top tier threat and belongs with the other mons who run the meta. He has his flaws, but they're simply outshines by all of his positive traits. He's in the top ten (and sometimes even top five) in use age for a reason. He's a top tier threat and should be ranked accordingly.

TTar to A+

 

[Tressed]

alexwolf Can we please just move Tyranitar to A+? everyone disagrees with you and I'd like to see more discussion on other Pokemon.

The problem is that not everyone disagrees, alexwolf is talking to people privately as well.

I'm really not really liking all these private discussions, though. The whole point of having this thread is to gauge, as a community, how a Pokemon fares. I'd personally like to see a rule where, if you have an opinion on a ranking, you need to put something in either this thread or the VR one. A couple lines explaining your thoughts doesn't take very long, and keeps controversial surprises like this from happening. Having most of the discussions and decisions done privately really sucks for anyone who isn't a tournament player, seeing as they can neither take part in the discussion nor see why these others people disagree with their opinion (never mind who these people are in the first place). Obviously, a tournament player's opinion matters more than your average poster's, but let's pretend Smogon is slightly democratic, okay? :)

 

[AM]

Pokemon to discuss:

Mega Houndoom rising to C+
Terrakion rising to A+
Staraptor rising to B
Lucario rising to B+
Conkeldurr falling to B-
Jirachi getting ranked to C- / C
Slowbro rising to A-
Cresselia rising to C+

Going to just bring up this post I had about my opinions on Conk and Lucario cause it hasn't changed for me for those two.

(B down to B-): Ok so Conkeldurr I feel has become more and more irrelevant. Like...you see this thing in the mid 1500s cause that's where it works but after that its usefulness diminishes. Teams are for the most part either too offensive for Conkeldurr to keep up with it, or in the case of stall, can't hope to ever break it. It's role as a status absorber is not even that great either as any competent player knows not to just willingly throw out status effects when this thing is around. Too easily exploited and I think it should drop.

(B down to B-) I understand the premise of why this is here. It makes for a good sweeper cleaner, has solid priority, solid typing, etc. but when does this actually pull off everything it needs to do consistently? It only has benefits against frailer offensive teams and that's only the case of getting a +2 boost and over dependance on priority at that point. There are just too many threats that overshadow it for Lucario to truly shine and be useful to reflect its current rank. I guess I never seen it used well so maybe I'm just wrong about this but Lucario doesn't seem as viable as it's made out to be in this rank.

I would like to add Lucario's effectiveness I believe is highly overrated and I haven't been convinced that it ever really warrants a slot on a team unless you're trying to go out of the norm. I'm more leaning towards this dropping than actually moving it up.

Slowbro should rise. It's one of the more consistent checks to Ddance ZardX, M-Cham, Excadrill, M-Gyarados, and just a plethora of physical attackers that either don't like stuff such as Scald, Fire Blast, or Foul Play. It can actually run solid sets to cater to the teams need pretty easily. Regenerator is just soooo good to. A properly played Slowbro can out stall a lot and if nothing on the team is left to break Slowbro it's usually gg for the team facing it. It's really effective at what it does similar to the A- ranked mons.

Imo move Cresselia up. It's not some sort of amazing mon but it does have some notable selling points in check things like the Latis, Lando-I, M-Cham, and in general is just a fantastic wall that can generally beat some others in the long run due to its stellar bulk + moonlight or just general wish support.

Everything else I'm generally ok with or I don't have enough experience with them to give an opinion on them.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

No, I think Lucario is fine where it is. Lucario, to be frank, isn't overrated at all; in fact, I'd venture to say that Lucario is underrated. You basically stated why it's good; it has a solid typing and great priority. Not to mention it has Swords Dance to sweep nicely as well. +2 ExtremeSpeed means Lucario does fantastically against offensive teams, and hits many faster Pokemon very hard. In addition to this, having a +2 priority move means Lucario is one of the few setup sweepers that isn't owned by Talonflame or Thundurus; in fact, it OHKOes both with ExtremeSpeed, which is awesome. I don't know why you say it only does well against frailer offense, because with its access to Iron Tail and Close Combat, it can hold its own against stall, balance, and bulky offense. It's pretty strong after a boost; for example, it OHKOes Skarmory with Close Combat after Stealth Rock. Iron Tail hits everything that resists Close Combat, hitting Fairy-types for hard damage and doing a bit to Landorus-T. Its Close Combat mauls anything slower than it.

The fact that Lucario sweeps like a boss isn't all there is to it. In addition to its excellent sweeping capabilities, it checks a lot of common Pokemon like Bisharp, Choice Tyranitar, Mamoswine (those with Adamant nature, ofc), Chansey, Heatran, and Mega Scizor thanks to its great Steel-typing. Being able to force out Chansey, Bisharp, and Tyranitar is a neat aspect of it as well. It has a bit of a hard time setting up and relies on forced switches to do so; but that's always been the case with it since DPP; hasn't it?

Overall, Lucario is actually a very effective and underrated sweeper. It is much better than anything currently sitting in B- atm and is quite good at what it does. Aegislash getting banned definitely helped it as well. It should stay in B Rank imo. If it moves up to B+ I wouldn't be opposed, but B suits it quite nicely.

 

[effyouzion]

Ttar is A+ easily. I don't need to rehash the arguments.

One thing people haven't mentioned is assault vest. Assault vest Ttar is the best trapper (takes less damage from the Latis than even scarf Ttar), and is an excellent all-around check to any special attacker without a fighting move. It even beats Greninja 1 on 1.

 

[AM]

No, I think Lucario is fine where it is. Lucario, to be frank, isn't overrated at all; in fact, I'd venture to say that Lucario is underrated. You basically stated why it's good; it has a solid typing and great priority. Not to mention it has Swords Dance to sweep nicely as well. +2 ExtremeSpeed means Lucario does fantastically against offensive teams, and hits many faster Pokemon very hard. In addition to this, having a +2 priority move means Lucario is one of the few setup sweepers that isn't owned by Talonflame or Thundurus; in fact, it OHKOes both with ExtremeSpeed, which is awesome. I don't know why you say it only does well against frailer offense, because with its access to Iron Tail and Close Combat, it can hold its own against stall, balance, and bulky offense. It's pretty strong after a boost; for example, it OHKOes Skarmory with Close Combat after Stealth Rock. Iron Tail hits everything that resists Close Combat, hitting Fairy-types for hard damage and doing a bit to Landorus-T. Its Close Combat mauls anything slower than it.

The fact that Lucario sweeps like a boss isn't all there is to it. In addition to its excellent sweeping capabilities, it checks a lot of common Pokemon like Bisharp, Choice Tyranitar, Mamoswine (those with Adamant nature, ofc), Chansey, Heatran, and Mega Scizor thanks to its great Steel-typing. Being able to force out Chansey, Bisharp, and Tyranitar is a neat aspect of it as well. It has a bit of a hard time setting up and relies on forced switches to do so; but that's always been the case with it since DPP; hasn't it?

Overall, Lucario is actually a very effective and underrated sweeper. It is much better than anything currently sitting in B- atm and is quite good at what it does. Aegislash getting banned definitely helped it as well. It should stay in B Rank imo. If it moves up to B+ I wouldn't be opposed, but B suits it quite nicely.

Fair enough, I didn't get a detailed reply last time that explained its effectiveness so that makes sense now. B is fine for it then.