np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]

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I just registered here because I'm very worried about this.

I use Mega Mawile all the time. This is my favorite Pokemon and him Mega. Formerly, I was a little hard to control but since I'm getting there. I won a small tournament and the only Mega Mawile lost was against ... Aegislash precisely. I must say that Aegislash is banned for reasons of his glory in OR.

But good. I worry so much because I did not want it (the Mega hmm) see banned. If banned, I will have less chance of winning in a tournament (even if I could use another Pokemon that can evolve Mega). So here goes. I would like to tell you about his shots.

- Heatran is a great Pokemon. If Sucker Punch of Mega Mawile can spend, his Fire Fang does not pass on Heatran (Flash Fire). Its Play Rough and Iron Head are less hurt him. Besides, Heatran has Fire Blast and Will-O-Wisp...
- Arcanine is also a good example to do. Intimidate and Will-O-Wisp.
- Will-O-Wisp to lose its power (Rotom-W can learn, for example).
- The Breloom's Spore.
- Taunt to eliminate Swords Dance.
- The maximum number of Sucker Punch is 8. Fragile (Victim of Encore or Pressure).
- And finally, his HP and speed (despite Sucker Punch) is bad so fragile despite its double type.

That's it. It is true that Sucker Punch Swords Dance + makes abuse, but you can avoid the big problem with Skarmory and him Whirlwind (it will be a sacrifice, it's agreed). As many said, him Sucker Punch is 50/50. And despite his attack, we can not say if it is abused. Obviously, banning Aegislash makes it stronger. But as fragile as it is, it will kill easily without improvement.

So for me, I am against his banishment. Not because it's my favorite Pokemon, but because otherwise, if we banned his Mega Mawile remain down NU in all his life and that, I think it's disgusting. At worst, if I were you, I would have preferred to remove his Swords Dance makes it less abuse.

(I don't know where I can introduce myself know. If someone could help me, that would be nice.)
 
I just registered here because I'm very worried about this.

I use Mega Mawile all the time. This is my favorite Pokemon and him Mega. Formerly, I was a little hard to control but since I'm getting there. I won a small tournament and the only Mega Mawile lost was against ... Aegislash precisely. I must say that Aegislash is banned for reasons of his glory in OR.

But good. I worry so much because I did not want it (the Mega hmm) see banned. If banned, I will have less chance of winning in a tournament (even if I could use another Pokemon that can evolve Mega). So here goes. I would like to tell you about his shots.

- Heatran is a great Pokemon. If Sucker Punch of Mega Mawile can spend, his Fire Fang does not pass on Heatran (Flash Fire). Its Play Rough and Iron Head are less hurt him. Besides, Heatran has Fire Blast and Will-O-Wisp...
- Arcanine is also a good example to do. Intimidate and Will-O-Wisp.
- Will-O-Wisp to lose its power (Rotom-W can learn, for example).
- The Breloom's Spore.
- Taunt to eliminate Swords Dance.
- The maximum number of Sucker Punch is 8. Fragile (Victim of Encore or Pressure).
- And finally, his HP and speed (despite Sucker Punch) is bad so fragile despite its double type.

That's it. It is true that Sucker Punch Swords Dance + makes abuse, but you can avoid the big problem with Skarmory and him Whirlwind (it will be a sacrifice, it's agreed). As many said, him Sucker Punch is 50/50. And despite his attack, we can not say if it is abused. Obviously, banning Aegislash makes it stronger. But as fragile as it is, it will kill easily without improvement.

So for me, I am against his banishment. Not because it's my favorite Pokemon, but because otherwise, if we banned his Mega Mawile remain down NU in all his life and that, I think it's disgusting. At worst, if I were you, I would have preferred to remove his Swords Dance makes it less abuse.

(I don't know where I can introduce myself know. If someone could help me, that would be nice.)
A few points to make.

-How a pokemon fairs in other metas is irrelevant to this discussion. Keeping a toxic pokemon around just because it would never get played otherwise is not how you build a competitive playing field.
- Swords Dance is not the issue here, some sets don't even run Swords Dance and they are just as effective if not more depending.
- Substitute means the very few pokemon that can even check M-Maw slightly can't even do that anymore.
 
I just registered here because I'm very worried about this.

I use Mega Mawile all the time. This is my favorite Pokemon and him Mega. Formerly, I was a little hard to control but since I'm getting there. I won a small tournament and the only Mega Mawile lost was against ... Aegislash precisely. I must say that Aegislash is banned for reasons of his glory in OR.

But good. I worry so much because I did not want it (the Mega hmm) see banned. If banned, I will have less chance of winning in a tournament (even if I could use another Pokemon that can evolve Mega). So here goes. I would like to tell you about his shots.

- Heatran is a great Pokemon. If Sucker Punch of Mega Mawile can spend, his Fire Fang does not pass on Heatran (Flash Fire). Its Play Rough and Iron Head are less hurt him. Besides, Heatran has Fire Blast and Will-O-Wisp...
- Arcanine is also a good example to do. Intimidate and Will-O-Wisp.
- Will-O-Wisp to lose its power (Rotom-W can learn, for example).
- The Breloom's Spore.
- Taunt to eliminate Swords Dance.
- The maximum number of Sucker Punch is 8. Fragile (Victim of Encore or Pressure).
- And finally, his HP and speed (despite Sucker Punch) is bad so fragile despite its double type.

That's it. It is true that Sucker Punch Swords Dance + makes abuse, but you can avoid the big problem with Skarmory and him Whirlwind (it will be a sacrifice, it's agreed). As many said, him Sucker Punch is 50/50. And despite his attack, we can not say if it is abused. Obviously, banning Aegislash makes it stronger. But as fragile as it is, it will kill easily without improvement.

So for me, I am against his banishment. Not because it's my favorite Pokemon, but because otherwise, if we banned his Mega Mawile remain down NU in all his life and that, I think it's disgusting. At worst, if I were you, I would have preferred to remove his Swords Dance makes it less abuse.

(I don't know where I can introduce myself know. If someone could help me, that would be nice.)
First off, it is commonly accepted that Mega Mawi is a low risk/high reward pokemon in the hands of a good player. So everyone who use it will have to change their teams. People wanted the suspect test because it is so ludicrously powerful. Huge power is a pretty ridiculous ability in itself and turns otherwise piss-poor pokemon like Diggersby and Azumarill into powerhouses despite their really low attack stats, Mega Maw has about twice as much attack stats as them so as you can imagine, it hits like a wrecking ball (it's actually the hardest hitting pokemon in the game!! o.o) and should not be a accepted standard in the ou tier.

Secondly, your points aren't really valid arguments because:
- The Subpunch set lets Mega Maw trash Heatran
- Arcanine is a outclassed pokemon who really only has niche in ou as a Mega Maw counter nowadays.
- Most smart players won't stay on a obvious WoW so they switch out, and even then it has Swords Dance to boost it's already sky-high attack so even if you burn Mega Maw you are most likely only put a timer on it.
- Most pokemon also fear Breloom's spore so not really a good arguments since it can let another poke take the spore and activate sleep clause.
- If you are encored into a undesirable move you switch out, it's just throwing away a awesome poke to have it stay in.
- Also Pressure? Who with pressure can stand Mega Maw's onslaught and is not in the ubers?
- And even with low hp it has awesome defensive typing and good defense stats so it won't be easily ohko'd and sucker punch helps it despite it's low speed.

Mega Maw is a horrifying pokemon and even with two mandatory moves (play rough and sucker punch) it still has many sets to take on it's would-be counters and checks so it is really hard to be anti-ban on this one. Sure, it isn't invincible by any means and can be worn down but all it really needs is a free opening and it will break something no matter what you do.

Also, while how regular Maw performs has no influence on the suspect test I think the new fairy typing will make it a decent pokemon in the lower tiers but we'll just have to wait and see about that.

Also, welcome to Smogon, I'm new as well so I hope we can get along ^_^
 
I just registered here because I'm very worried about this.

I use Mega Mawile all the time. This is my favorite Pokemon and him Mega. Formerly, I was a little hard to control but since I'm getting there. I won a small tournament and the only Mega Mawile lost was against ... Aegislash precisely. I must say that Aegislash is banned for reasons of his glory in OR.

But good. I worry so much because I did not want it (the Mega hmm) see banned. If banned, I will have less chance of winning in a tournament (even if I could use another Pokemon that can evolve Mega). So here goes. I would like to tell you about his shots.

- Heatran is a great Pokemon. If Sucker Punch of Mega Mawile can spend, his Fire Fang does not pass on Heatran (Flash Fire). Its Play Rough and Iron Head are less hurt him. Besides, Heatran has Fire Blast and Will-O-Wisp...
- Arcanine is also a good example to do. Intimidate and Will-O-Wisp.
- Will-O-Wisp to lose its power (Rotom-W can learn, for example).
- The Breloom's Spore.
- Taunt to eliminate Swords Dance.
- The maximum number of Sucker Punch is 8. Fragile (Victim of Encore or Pressure).
- And finally, his HP and speed (despite Sucker Punch) is bad so fragile despite its double type.
- Heatran being a primary counter, people tend to run sub punch.
- Pairing M-Mawile with something that renders Arcanine obsolete isn't that hard.
- Will o wisp is not really a solid solution, considering the rise of sub M-Mawiles to deal with status.
- Breloom won't like Play Rough.
- Even without SD it hits hard.
- Relying on encore is shaky. Quagsire could, but it would not benefit his walling abilities.
- I'm not sure what Pressure user has the mettle to stall it out. Ghosts that can run spite, usually don't have the space to include it in their moveset. Grudge is a bad idea because you're sacrificing one pokemon on your team.
- M-Mawile's bulk is deceptive. It doesn't get faster but it has Sucker Punch. It doesn't like being hit on the special side of the spectrum but it's sp def stat isn't that bad. Note that the blows are also softened by that typing. It's defense allows it to stay in on strong physicall threats like Lando-T, and it doesn't need Ice Punch to hurt it.
 
After reading the arguments, I don't think mawile is the problem, though to be fair I never thought mawile was the problem. I think we should be examining focus punch on mawile specifically. Why are we trying to use an axe where a scalpel would be a more effective tool? It's silly and, I am about fed up.
Smogon has always avoided complex bans like allowing Mega Mawile but only with portions of the move pool it has. For one thing it can lead to dicey-er decisions as Focus Punch isn't strictly the culprit. We could just say no Sucker Punch instead. Or no Swords Dance. Pick what you want but the combination of all the elements of a Pokemon is what causes it to be broken. Picking and choosing which ones to remove over others is not something that can be done easily, without bias, and without way too much petty arguing. Kangaskhanite could be unbanned and Kangaskhan could be barred from using Power Up Punch and Seismic Toss. Blazekin could be allowed but only without Speed Boost and Baton Pass. And this extends to everything! Arceus could be allowed in OU if you limit it's move pool and hold items enough. Micro dictating that many elements of that many guys at once is too big a challenge and will definitely leave MANY MANY people displeased with a bunch of super tiny decisions that could have worked out either way anyways. Either the mon in it's entirety is broken or it isn't but it's not worthwhile to try an isolate specific elements that are broken.
 
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Smogon has always avoided complex bans like allowing Mega Mawile but only with portions of the move pool it has. For one thing it can lead to dicey-er decisions as Focus Punch isn't strictly the culprit. We could just say no Sucker Punch instead. Or no Swords Dance. Pick what you want but the combination of all the elements of a Pokemon is what causes it to be broken. Picking and choosing which ones to remove over others is not something that can be done easily, without bias, and without way too much petty arguing. Kangaskhanite could be unbanned and Kangaskhan could be barred from using Power Up Punch and Seismic Toss. Blazekin could be allowed but only without Speed Boost and Baton Pass. And this extends to everything! Arceus could be allowed in OU if you limit it's move pool and hold items enough. Micro dictating that many elements of that many guys at once is too big a challenge and will definitely leave MANY MANY people displeased with a bunch of super tiny decisions that could have worked out either way anyways. Either the mon in it's entirety is broken or it isn't but it's not worthwhile to try an isolate specific elements that are broken.
Honestly, you don't even need to argue your point. If anyone ever suggests Smogon do complex bans in the future, just show them this video:


So no, we're not going to ban Focus Punch on Mawile. We'll ban Mawilite, or nothing at all.
 
Not sure if I'll really have time to ladder on this one since I'm going to be so busy the next few days and I procrastinated on OU since I was more concerned about the ubers suspect test, but honestly I think Mawile needs to go. Its typing and coverage is too good and it's too powerful for OU. I used it to get reqs for Ubers and it was hard to stop there even, especially once you get an SD up. I don't know why its usage stats aren't better. I know that this is anecdotal, but in my experience laddering in OU so far its usage goes up the higher you get on the ladder, implying that its usage stats are probably misleading. I guess you have to be a little bit knowledgeable to play it correctly, but only because of its speed and lack of reliable priority. I pretty much always carry a pokemon with knock off on a team with mawile because every time I use it and knock off a choice item I know there's at least one pokemon I can guarantee a hit with sucker punch.
 
So, I've been reading up on Mega-Mawile some more, hoping to finally come to some sort of conclusion on my personal feelings on whether or not I think it should be banned. If you read my earlier posts, I've avoided actually taking a firm stance in the discussion one way or another, but I feel that has to change.

What I'm going to do is explain what I came up with when I posed the question to myself of how exactly to deal with Mega-Mawile, in the hopes that somewhere in my train of thought, the rest of you might notice or remember something that'll help you with your own decisions. Most of my thoughts are going to be a little vague and hypothetical, and that's entirely intentional; I don't like just bringing up hard damage figures out of context and trying to justify a position based on the simple math of a specific attack against a specific pokemon. Not to say those points aren't valid, it's just not the way I prefer to critique a pokemon's effect on the meta. I prefer to consider things from a purely theoretical viewpoint, in hopes that some spark of creativity will reveal something that can't be determined from hard figures alone. Again though, that's just my personal philosophy; I don't want to start a math vs. theory argument, I'm just explaining what I'm basing my reasoning on.

Okay, so the first and most obvious answer I came up with is status conditions. Burns are especially helpful, as they reduce Mawile's massive attack stat, and help to turn any future 2HKOs into OHKOs. Of course, that has been brought up as an answer before, and most people counter that by mentioning that sub sets can avoid status and counter hard with possible boosted strikes from behind the sub. To that, I say that the likelihood of Mawile anticipating the status and getting a sub up beforehand with it's low speed is unlikely, and that the prediction battle goes both ways. If both players know that a status attack is coming, it's a game of prediction between you and your opponent. A lot of people also like to bring up that Mawile will often use it's sub on the switch, which would leave it temporarily immune to status. This is another good point, but again, that street runs both ways. If you suspect that mawile is going to attempt a boost or a sub as you switch out... don't switch out. Use the pokemon you have, even if it won't be the most effective choice. Sometimes you've gotta sack stuff, and that's not a Mawile thing, that's just a pokemon thing. Anyway, the status method is fairly effective, but definitely not a sure thing, it all depends on prediction and timing.

The second thing that came to mind was somehow taking away the advantage of Mawile's ability, which is the true source of it's strength. There are no shortages of options there, but i found that going through the list of pokemon that could use gastro acid, skill swap, simple beam, entrainment, or worry seed, that none of them really served as good counters to Mawile, and that the opponent would likely see such a strategy coming a mile away, except maybe a worry seed coming from a Mega-Venusaur. Heck, the only physical threat that gets access to skill swap to steal mawile's ability is Gallade, and he'll still get creamed by a play rough, even WITHOUT huge power doubling mawile's attack, so that's not an option at all. Plus, even with it's ability temporarily nullified, all Mawile would have to do is switch out or use SD and poof, it's back to full power, so that's really not a good option, in my opinion.

The next thing I thought of was just going full-out aggressive on it with super effective moves from common pokemon. This method would probably work the best, but wouldn't always check Mawile in time to secure a win. Even by filling an entire team of checks such as garchomp, heatran, mega char-x, and the like, there would never be a clear time when you could take Mawile out with no risk. You could take it out, sure, but it'd usually cost you a sweeper that could end up being the only answer to the rest of the opponent's team. This all comes down to timing, when the opponent uses mawile, when you choose to attack it... If everything doesn't line up perfectly, you basically lose right then and there.

Pretty much the only thing I think would actually have any success would be a combination of my first and third ideas. Make sure to always bring a pokemon capable of quickly and safely inflicting burns on Mawile, and carry a few heavy hitters with ground and fire moves. With the proper amount of prediction, you could have an answer for mawile, and have a good chance to win.

So, with all that said, I have to say that even that kind of strategy wouldn't always work. To a certain extent, I want to just shrug and say, 'well, that's just pokemon', but really, that's not an option here. When I REALLY think it out like this, Mawile certainly starts to show itself for the overwhelming threat it truly is. There are ways to check it, but in the hands of a skilled player, Mawile is a game-changing pokemon that can destroy even prepared teams under the right circumstances. It's typing combined with power and priority, even hit-or-miss priority, makes it a dominating presence on the field. I don't think there's any way to escape the inevitable conclusion here: Mawile needs to be banned for the meta to continue on the road to being well-balanced.

Well, those are my thoughts on the subject. Thanks for listening, everyone, and sorry for the long post; I like to fully explain my reasoning when it comes to topics like this.
 
Just obtained requirements for this suspect test and will be voting against M-Mawile getting the boot from OU. I may be somewhat biased as Mega-Mawile is my favourite mega but I just can't see how it is broken. It's a mon of prediction and skill.
In a meta riveted with status and naturally fast mons (alot faster than slow ass Mega-Mawile atleast), I have never found Mega-Mawile to be overpowered...just really good. It's an extremely fun poke to use and would be pissed if it left OU.
 
I don't see why people are saying that Spore or Will-O-Wisp won't do any good. First of all, if you are forced out by a move you are obviously weak to it. By that logic, and if you believe some moves can check Pokemon, Spore can be considered a Mega Mawile check. What it provides the user of the Spore is a free switch-in to the "fresh" Mega Mawile without any boosts. This allows Heatran to then come in, live Sucker Punch (252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 157-185 (41.6 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) and then destroy Mega Mawile with a Lava Plume (216+ SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 290-344 (95.3 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock). Yes, you can counter this statement by saying that if there's a Heatran on the opposing team you can just not switch into Mawile, but just like I said, it's considered a check that ways.

Second of all, the Will-O-Wisp part. The only viable Will-O-Wispers in the OU metagame right now are all easily faster than Mega Mawile, and if are switched in on an obvious attack or Sucker Punch, can easily force it out. You can't just say the user of the Mega Mawile is bound to using Substitute on every possible switch, which means that this argument does indeed make sense. The SubPunch set is easily checked by Sleep- and Burn-inducing moves when Mega Mawile isn't in a Substitute.

However, this is true that Mega Mawile is best and perhaps good only if coming in on situations where the opposing Pokemon is unable to deal damage to it, or put a dent on it. For all those saying that it doesn't care about burns and can just Swords Dance its way out, it can not. After a Will-O-Wisp, it pretty much is forced out by any other Pokemon access to a useful Substitute and is unable to cause any more havoc. And seeing how Breloom has other uses along with Spore and Heatrans do run sets with Will-O-Wisp and Modest Lava Plumes, Mega Mawile is then only a niche, providing destruction, but at the same time being vulnerable to two most used status inflicting moves in the metagame. If we compare everything with skillful or good players every time when we suspect something, then we should also bare in mind that the other player is skillful as well. Otherwise, there is no need to.

I apologize if this post is bullshit and includes false accusations, but that is clearly my opinion and I have made these points while being aware to other facts as well as these to cause no further confusion. And a tl;dr is: Will-O-Wisp and Spore are Mega Mawile "checks" as they force it out so if anyone comes trying to say they are phazed out by Sleep clause or can be prevented by switching out, we are looking for Mega Mawile checks and counters to prove if it should be banned or not, and thus these two moves should be considered checks. The only situation is where it's already behind a Substitute, which is caused only by the other player's wrong predictions or faults. For if the Mega Mawile user is a skillful player, the other should be assumed as one as well.
 

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So, I've been reading up on Mega-Mawile some more, hoping to finally come to some sort of conclusion on my personal feelings on whether or not I think it should be banned. If you read my earlier posts, I've avoided actually taking a firm stance in the discussion one way or another, but I feel that has to change.

What I'm going to do is explain what I came up with when I posed the question to myself of how exactly to deal with Mega-Mawile, in the hopes that somewhere in my train of thought, the rest of you might notice or remember something that'll help you with your own decisions. Most of my thoughts are going to be a little vague and hypothetical, and that's entirely intentional; I don't like just bringing up hard damage figures out of context and trying to justify a position based on the simple math of a specific attack against a specific pokemon. Not to say those points aren't valid, it's just not the way I prefer to critique a pokemon's effect on the meta. I prefer to consider things from a purely theoretical viewpoint, in hopes that some spark of creativity will reveal something that can't be determined from hard figures alone. Again though, that's just my personal philosophy; I don't want to start a math vs. theory argument, I'm just explaining what I'm basing my reasoning on.

Okay, so the first and most obvious answer I came up with is status conditions. Burns are especially helpful, as they reduce Mawile's massive attack stat, and help to turn any future 2HKOs into OHKOs. Of course, that has been brought up as an answer before, and most people counter that by mentioning that sub sets can avoid status and counter hard with possible boosted strikes from behind the sub. To that, I say that the likelihood of Mawile anticipating the status and getting a sub up beforehand with it's low speed is unlikely, and that the prediction battle goes both ways. If both players know that a status attack is coming, it's a game of prediction between you and your opponent. A lot of people also like to bring up that Mawile will often use it's sub on the switch, which would leave it temporarily immune to status. This is another good point, but again, that street runs both ways. If you suspect that mawile is going to attempt a boost or a sub as you switch out... don't switch out. Use the pokemon you have, even if it won't be the most effective choice. Sometimes you've gotta sack stuff, and that's not a Mawile thing, that's just a pokemon thing. Anyway, the status method is fairly effective, but definitely not a sure thing, it all depends on prediction and timing.

The second thing that came to mind was somehow taking away the advantage of Mawile's ability, which is the true source of it's strength. There are no shortages of options there, but i found that going through the list of pokemon that could use gastro acid, skill swap, simple beam, entrainment, or worry seed, that none of them really served as good counters to Mawile, and that the opponent would likely see such a strategy coming a mile away, except maybe a worry seed coming from a Mega-Venusaur. Heck, the only physical threat that gets access to skill swap to steal mawile's ability is Gallade, and he'll still get creamed by a play rough, even WITHOUT huge power doubling mawile's attack, so that's not an option at all. Plus, even with it's ability temporarily nullified, all Mawile would have to do is switch out or use SD and poof, it's back to full power, so that's really not a good option, in my opinion.

The next thing I thought of was just going full-out aggressive on it with super effective moves from common pokemon. This method would probably work the best, but wouldn't always check Mawile in time to secure a win. Even by filling an entire team of checks such as garchomp, heatran, mega char-x, and the like, there would never be a clear time when you could take Mawile out with no risk. You could take it out, sure, but it'd usually cost you a sweeper that could end up being the only answer to the rest of the opponent's team. This all comes down to timing, when the opponent uses mawile, when you choose to attack it... If everything doesn't line up perfectly, you basically lose right then and there.

Pretty much the only thing I think would actually have any success would be a combination of my first and third ideas. Make sure to always bring a pokemon capable of quickly and safely inflicting burns on Mawile, and carry a few heavy hitters with ground and fire moves. With the proper amount of prediction, you could have an answer for mawile, and have a good chance to win.

So, with all that said, I have to say that even that kind of strategy wouldn't always work. To a certain extent, I want to just shrug and say, 'well, that's just pokemon', but really, that's not an option here. When I REALLY think it out like this, Mawile certainly starts to show itself for the overwhelming threat it truly is. There are ways to check it, but in the hands of a skilled player, Mawile is a game-changing pokemon that can destroy even prepared teams under the right circumstances. It's typing combined with power and priority, even hit-or-miss priority, makes it a dominating presence on the field. I don't think there's any way to escape the inevitable conclusion here: Mawile needs to be banned for the meta to continue on the road to being well-balanced.

Well, those are my thoughts on the subject. Thanks for listening, everyone, and sorry for the long post; I like to fully explain my reasoning when it comes to topics like this.
While you make some good points which I mostly agree with, there is one aspect many people in this thread isn't taking into consideration; Mawile can always switch out when it's threatened. Since nothing is switching into Mawile without getting severly hurt or straight up OHKOd, it basically gets a kill every time it's able to come in. After you have sacked your poke, you bring in your status afflicter in Breloom or Rotom-W, or your revengekiller in Keldeo or Garchomp. Then you go for your status move and attack respectively, but what does your opponent do? As the opposing team is built with Mawile, it most likely has something to take on the most common revengekillers, and probably a status fodder to take pressure off of it.

Nearly every Pokemon in this game is taken on by a spesific revengekiller. The same went for Mega Lucario; there were no safe switchins, so you had to let something got killed or crippled every time it got to attack, but it was suspectable to revenge killing. This fact didn't hinder Lucario from being considered broken and unhealthy, and it was banned from OU. In my opinion, the same goes for Mawile, and the fact that it can be revengekilled or crippled by status is not something that is gonna make me change my mind on whether to ban it or not.
 
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Just obtained requirements for this suspect test and will be voting against M-Mawile getting the boot from OU. I may be somewhat biased as Mega-Mawile is my favourite mega but I just can't see how it is broken. It's a mon of prediction and skill.
In a meta riveted with status and naturally fast mons (alot faster than slow ass Mega-Mawile atleast), I have never found Mega-Mawile to be overpowered...just really good. It's an extremely fun poke to use and would be pissed if it left OU.
I agree on that one with you Mega-Mawile is extremely strong and has a really good typing, but it is very slow has low HP-stats, can't switch safely into attacks and doesn't take them too well.
(for example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-152962308 )
And if the opponent using M-MAwile is predicting a switch... dont switch, even though it might not seem as the right thing to do.


Edit: SomeKidfromJohto didn't saw your post earlier
 
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I don't see why people are saying that Spore or Will-O-Wisp won't do any good. First of all, if you are forced out by a move you are obviously weak to it. By that logic, and if you believe some moves can check Pokemon, Spore can be considered a Mega Mawile check. What it provides the user of the Spore is a free switch-in to the "fresh" Mega Mawile without any boosts. This allows Heatran to then come in, live Sucker Punch (252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 157-185 (41.6 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) and then destroy Mega Mawile with a Lava Plume (216+ SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 290-344 (95.3 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock). Yes, you can counter this statement by saying that if there's a Heatran on the opposing team you can just not switch into Mawile, but just like I said, it's considered a check that ways.

Second of all, the Will-O-Wisp part. The only viable Will-O-Wispers in the OU metagame right now are all easily faster than Mega Mawile, and if are switched in on an obvious attack or Sucker Punch, can easily force it out. You can't just say the user of the Mega Mawile is bound to using Substitute on every possible switch, which means that this argument does indeed make sense. The SubPunch set is easily checked by Sleep- and Burn-inducing moves when Mega Mawile isn't in a Substitute.
The thing is, Mawile will never come in on Breloom or Heatran or any other obvious Will-o-Wisper. You'll need to switch those pokemon in on Mawile, and that makes all the difference. If it's SubPunch, the status route won't work. If it's Swords Dance, then yes, you can get a status off...unless Mawile switches out. In the case of Breloom with spore specifically, they'll switch to something else to take the Spore to activate sleep clause, and then they don't need to worry about it when they bring Mawile back in later.

I mean, no offense to you, but you're falling into a trap that many people on the anti-ban side are falling into. Assuming the Mawile user is a bad player. Obviously a bad player won't be able to make proper use of such a powerful threat. Give a bad player E-Killer Arceus or Geomancy Xerneas, two of the strongest sweepers Pokemon has ever seen and they can still fail miserably with them.

I agree on that one with you Mega-Mawile is extremely strong and has a really good typing, but it is very slow has low HP-stats, can't switch safely into attacks and doesn't take them too well.
(for example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-152962308 )
And if the opponent using M-MAwile is predicting a switch... dont switch, even though it might not seem as the right thing to do.
Case in point, that replay right there. The Mawile user was a really, really bad player. Leaving Ferro in on CharX to set up Stealth Rock when your team isn't particularly weak to it, and then leaving it in to set up spikes? That's just terrible pokemon. Even then, that replay doesn't showcase how Mawile is or isn't broken. He used it as a last ditch effort to try and stop your rampaging CharX. A better replay to show would be one where Mawile comes in on a favorable situation and you deal with it without having lost a single pokemon.

For example, using my own replay here:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-149685785

His Play Rough at the end didn't matter whether it missed or not, Bronzong would have survived the hit. And with Victini:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 140 HP / 0 Def Victini: 330-390 (87.7 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

There was a 75% chance I'd be able to survive and take out his sub, then cripple him with Will-o-Wisp, as unless he switched out expecting that (which a player who knows what Victini does on stall probably would have), I'd still be faster even with the speed drop. So even then, it's not a great replay as it's still a "bad" player...in the sense that he wasn't aware of Stalltini being a thing, but otherwise he made the right plays with Mawile. Had I been Band or Scarf Victini, I would have died to Sucker Punch.
 
The thing is, Mawile will never come in on Breloom or Heatran or any other obvious Will-o-Wisper. You'll need to switch those pokemon in on Mawile, and that makes all the difference. If it's SubPunch, the status route won't work. If it's Swords Dance, then yes, you can get a status off...unless Mawile switches out. In the case of Breloom with spore specifically, they'll switch to something else to take the Spore to activate sleep clause, and then they don't need to worry about it when they bring Mawile back in later.

I mean, no offense to you, but you're falling into a trap that many people on the anti-ban side are falling into. Assuming the Mawile user is a bad player. Obviously a bad player won't be able to make proper use of such a powerful threat. Give a bad player E-Killer Arceus or Geomancy Xerneas, two of the strongest sweepers Pokemon has ever seen and they can still fail miserably with them.



Case in point, that replay right there. The Mawile user was a really, really bad player. Leaving Ferro in on CharX to set up Stealth Rock when your team isn't particularly weak to it, and then leaving it in to set up spikes? That's just terrible pokemon. Even then, that replay doesn't showcase how Mawile is or isn't broken. He used it as a last ditch effort to try and stop your rampaging CharX. A better replay to show would be one where Mawile comes in on a favorable situation and you deal with it without having lost a single pokemon.

For example, using my own replay here:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-149685785

His Play Rough at the end didn't matter whether it missed or not, Bronzong would have survived the hit. And with Victini:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 140 HP / 0 Def Victini: 330-390 (87.7 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

There was a 75% chance I'd be able to survive and take out his sub, then cripple him with Will-o-Wisp, as unless he switched out expecting that (which a player who knows what Victini does on stall probably would have), I'd still be faster even with the speed drop. So even then, it's not a great replay as it's still a "bad" player...in the sense that he wasn't aware of Stalltini being a thing, but otherwise he made the right plays with Mawile. Had I been Band or Scarf Victini, I would have died to Sucker Punch.
My point was that the slowness and the overreliance on S-Punch can ultimately be M-Wile's biggest weakness. But you're point makes more sense of course, since I'm pretty new to competitive battling.
 

Bummer

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Will-O-Wisp and Spore are Mega Mawile "checks" as they force it out so if anyone comes trying to say they are phazed out by Sleep clause or can be prevented by switching out, we are looking for Mega Mawile checks and counters to prove if it should be banned or not, and thus these two moves should be considered checks. The only situation is where it's already behind a Substitute, which is caused only by the other player's wrong predictions or faults.
Status can most certainly aid in subduing Mega Mawile, or if anything, make her more manageable. But just like with revenge killing, both sides weigh the pros and cons of each turn and need to decide for themselves whether or not they should switch, attack, or do anything else based on their predictions. It should also be mentioned that your opponent would be pretty short-sighted to bring in Mega Mawile on something that could carry either of those status moves, given its low speed and how Sucker Punch won't matter in such a situation.

As for your Substitute argument ..... how does one predict a Substitute set? Or rather, for what reasons do you feel comfortable blaming Mega Mawile's opponent for letting it set up a Sub? Anyone using her would make sure to bring her onto the field in a favourable position, where they either can severely dent their opponent's answer to her or provide an opportunity to Swords Dance or sub. Sure, the responsibility lies with the player, and there's always some hints to go by from team structure, but I find it weird how you don't seem to consider that Mega Mawile has several qualities that enable set-up opportunities, and instead just pins the blame on the player facing her.


And seeing how Breloom has other uses along with Spore and Heatrans do run sets with Will-O-Wisp and Modest Lava Plumes, Mega Mawile is then only a niche, providing destruction, but at the same time being vulnerable to two most used status inflicting moves in the metagame.
Any physical attacker would find Spore and Will-o-Wisp to be a thorn in their side, and Mega Mawile is no different in that regard. But by the looks of it, this meta doesn't seem to be running short on physical attackers despite those risks. Furthermore, if you believe that those two status moves can degrade Mega Mawile into a destructive niche, then I recommend reading this thread again. Or for the first time, if you haven't already.

it is very slow has low HP-stats, can't switch safely into attacks and doesn't take them too well.
(for example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-152962308 )r
It's great that you provide counter-arguments to show that M-Mawile isn't unreasonably bulky, but ..... a +1 M-Charizard X KOing it with Flare Blitz is a terrible example, most things weak to fire wouldn't have the slightest chance to survive that.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 432-510 (142.1 - 167.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (this is without the attack boost and Jolly nature, mind you)

It does make for a good example of how to handle the looming threat of a Sucker Punch, but as we've concluded earlier, predictions are a two-way street. If the Mawile user had opted for Play Rough instead ...

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 255-300 (85.5 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (guaranteed with Stealth Rock)

So in that example video, Char X would have gone down if Mawile predicted the Roost. Food for thought.


Just obtained requirements for this suspect test and will be voting against M-Mawile getting the boot from OU. I may be somewhat biased as Mega-Mawile is my favourite mega but I just can't see how it is broken. It's a mon of prediction and skill. In a meta riveted with status and naturally fast mons (alot faster than slow ass Mega-Mawile atleast), I have never found Mega-Mawile to be overpowered...just really good. It's an extremely fun poke to use and would be pissed if it left OU.
I wouldn't expect anyone participating in this discussion to only favor one side of the poll, we all have different amount of skill and experience that gives us an unique perspective. However, given the number of people who advocate for its ban, it wouldn't be wise to assume that it's all because of personal preferences or lack of motivation to adapt. The purpose of this thread is not to force everyone into a particular mold. The purpose of this thread is to have the anti-ban people think:

I personally want it to stay, but I understand why others consider it too much of a threat.

Reversably, the pro-bans would benefit from seeing the other side as well and reach the following conclusion:

I want to see it banned, even though I can see why others find it manageable.

Understand =/= Agree. It's all fine and dandy if you've achieved the requirements and is planning to vote to have it stay, but if your current knowledge about Mega Mawile doesn't even let you see why others want it gone, then that should be a sign that you don't fully understand its impact.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
I don't see why people are saying that Spore or Will-O-Wisp won't do any good. First of all, if you are forced out by a move you are obviously weak to it. By that logic, and if you believe some moves can check Pokemon, Spore can be considered a Mega Mawile check. What it provides the user of the Spore is a free switch-in to the "fresh" Mega Mawile without any boosts. This allows Heatran to then come in, live Sucker Punch (252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 157-185 (41.6 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) and then destroy Mega Mawile with a Lava Plume (216+ SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 290-344 (95.3 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock). Yes, you can counter this statement by saying that if there's a Heatran on the opposing team you can just not switch into Mawile, but just like I said, it's considered a check that ways.

Second of all, the Will-O-Wisp part. The only viable Will-O-Wispers in the OU metagame right now are all easily faster than Mega Mawile, and if are switched in on an obvious attack or Sucker Punch, can easily force it out. You can't just say the user of the Mega Mawile is bound to using Substitute on every possible switch, which means that this argument does indeed make sense. The SubPunch set is easily checked by Sleep- and Burn-inducing moves when Mega Mawile isn't in a Substitute.

However, this is true that Mega Mawile is best and perhaps good only if coming in on situations where the opposing Pokemon is unable to deal damage to it, or put a dent on it. For all those saying that it doesn't care about burns and can just Swords Dance its way out, it can not. After a Will-O-Wisp, it pretty much is forced out by any other Pokemon access to a useful Substitute and is unable to cause any more havoc. And seeing how Breloom has other uses along with Spore and Heatrans do run sets with Will-O-Wisp and Modest Lava Plumes, Mega Mawile is then only a niche, providing destruction, but at the same time being vulnerable to two most used status inflicting moves in the metagame. If we compare everything with skillful or good players every time when we suspect something, then we should also bare in mind that the other player is skillful as well. Otherwise, there is no need to.

I apologize if this post is bullshit and includes false accusations, but that is clearly my opinion and I have made these points while being aware to other facts as well as these to cause no further confusion. And a tl;dr is: Will-O-Wisp and Spore are Mega Mawile "checks" as they force it out so if anyone comes trying to say they are phazed out by Sleep clause or can be prevented by switching out, we are looking for Mega Mawile checks and counters to prove if it should be banned or not, and thus these two moves should be considered checks. The only situation is where it's already behind a Substitute, which is caused only by the other player's wrong predictions or faults. For if the Mega Mawile user is a skillful player, the other should be assumed as one as well.
Spore and Will-O-Wisp cannot check because lol Subsitute. The only thing able to inflict a Burn consistently is Inflitrator Chandelure, who's very easy to take advantage of because of its poor speed and bulk, can't switch in EVER, and can still die to a Sucker Punch since it's weak to it.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 151-178 (57.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power BURNED Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 179-211 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


It can get OHKO'd by Sucker Punch after SR if Mawile's been burned and loses more than half to a resisted Play Rough when switching in. That's a pretty bad answer to Mega Mawile.

(Also fuck phones)
 
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Spore and Will-O-Wisp cannot check because lol Subsitute. The only thing able to inflict a Burn consistently is Inflitrator Chandelure, who's very easy to take advantage of because of its poor speed and bulk, can't switch in EVER, and can still die to a Sucker Punch switch it's weak to in.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 151-178 (57.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power BURNED Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 179-211 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


It can get OHKO'd by Sucker Punch after SR if Mawile's been burned and loses more than half to a resisted Play Rough when switching in. That's a pretty bad answer to Mega Mawile.
LMAO... thanks for putting into perspective how stupid powerful M-Mawile is... this is one of the many reasons why I wouldn't be shocked, nor mad, if he gets a place in the Hall of Origin (Ubers).

At this point, I don't know why people keep mentioning Spore and WoW as a check to him. SubPunch is arguably its most prominent set because ppl are aware of Mawile's presence in the meta and need at least one, even two pokemon to carry a status inducing move to mitigate it.

So at this point, can we STOP mentioning WoW and Spore as viable solutions to Mega Mawile already; its becoming pretty redundant.
 
Well, on some level you can guess a set based on team support, but not every M-Mawile is SubPunch, that's part of the reason it's dangerous, it's not viable with just one move set.

However I think you can still call bull on both those status move for deeper reasons. Every Mawile that isn't SubPunch has Swords Dance. And if you've read enough posts here you know +2 burnt M-Mawile still 2HKOs basically everything (while only getting hit once itself thanks to Sucker Punch.) So even if it's not behind a Sub and you burn it. Now your Will-o-Wisper is dead, or you switched it out in which case what ever you switched in is dead. Burning it doesn't prevent it from netting 2 KOs on you (or at least netting one and basically incapacitating 2 other things) in addition to the fact that many times it's operating from behind a sub.

Spore is a terrible argument becasue if that's what you need to beat M-Mawile it means you failed team building the moment you didn't put one of two specific pokes on your team which is just... about as restrictive as team building gets.. it's like playing in Ubers......
 

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just might as well post some thoughts having got reqs for the past few suspects, but i'll only focus on my experiences last suspect test and this one. i used on team last suspect test, which i felt was weak to mawile, and i used that team again along with another team, which wasn't as weak to mawile

a big thing that sticks out to me about mawile is its ability to easily create opportunities against some common pokemon, notably mandibuzz, conkeldurr, chansey/blissey, sylveon, being able to switch into all of these pokemon and pressure it, allowing it to set up sd or sub, or just straight up attack (the choice typically isn't too hard to predict, you won't try to sd if the opponent has strong ground type healthy like lando-t or garchomp (or just anything that can take sucker punch and retaliate with another attack, charizard x fits the bill too), it would be better to straight up play rough. but if there is a healthy skarmory, using sd is probably a better option). mawile can also take advantage of ferrothorn, clefable, scizor, venusaur and latias/latios to an extent. the best ferrothorn can do to sd mawile is to leech seed it to do residual damage along with iron barbs and allow something else to revenge kill it, it won't like taking a fire fang, max phys def being ohko'd by it 50% of the time. the fact mawile can run sub punch as well makes it harder for ferrothorn to predict against it as well, as it needs to gyro ball to break its sub (which will usually break, unless mawile comes in vs ferrothorn before mega evo, intimidating it, and mawile has max hp). mawile can def be a nuisance if it gets a sub up, and it may cause problems to teammates as well, notably heatran (i run scarf heatran + ferro on my more mawile weak team). clefable is kinda shaky, it needs flamethrower to do any significant damage to mawile, and mawile is still capable of getting up a free sd or just using play rough on the clefable doing heavy damage. honestly mawile probably takes advantage of clefable most of the time (also mawile will usually have more than enough speed for clefable unless it's max hp, but i think running speed on mawile is better). scizor is pretty shaky as well, sd is generally needed if it wants to do notable damage to mawile, and mawile is easily capable of ohkoing with fire fang. if mawile switches into scizor as scizor sets up sd, it is capable of doing solid damage to mawile, and it may allow another pokemon to take out mawile more easily, but scizor really isn't necessarily winning against mawile. offensive venusaur are usually ok as they can 2hko and they generally run more speed than max speed mawile, but defensive sets struggle and may have to resort to sleep powder or leech seed, while mawile can setup sd and still threaten defensive venusaur with a boosted play rough. latias and latios typically need to rely on good prediction to beat mawile, latias struggles more as 2 attacks + defog + roost/healing wish is more common on latias, while latios generally runs 3 attacks + defog, and the 3rd attack can 2hko mawile, so it will need to predict mawile switch-in and then predict it not to sucker punch, and predicting both may be difficult, so latios and latias generally find themselves on the losing side. there are still others which mawile can take advantage of, but not to as great of an extent, such as azumarill, dragons locked into outrage (the presence of mawile can really annoy dragonite as it makes it unsafe for dragonite to use it's best move, outrage), tyranitar, breloom etc. it's really important to note how easily mawile can create opportunities and poke holes into the opponent's team if it switches in safely (not to mention mawile's solid bulk potentially allowing it to get a free kill if it can come in safely against offensive teams).

i'd also like to compare and discuss my experiences on the last two suspect tests with the teams i used. when i played against mawile last suspect test, i generally needed to rely on correctly predicting the set to beat it, and in a few games a straight up lost to sd sets because i misplayed against it, but in multiple games vs it i would almost always lose at least one pokemon. despite this the team was really successful and i performed well on the suspect ladder. however this team, despite the biggest single threat on my team not being allowed on the suspect ladder, the team performed with less success. i think this may be attributed to the fact mawile made things tough for stall, and now stall is better without mawile. im not necessarily seeing this as a bad thing, as there are still ways to keep stall in check, but the mawile weak team i used struggled against some stall teams, which led me to using the other team, which i felt had a better chance against stall (it's just a trend i've noticed, it's definitely not an argument to keep mawile in the tier because stall teams are better without it).

also i'll just discuss the two sets it can a bit more and how it may cause problems. heatran is def seen as the best mawile check there is, taking a +2 sucker punch while damaging it with lava plume, or straight up burning it or even roaring it out, but if it switches into a subpunch set, it'll lose. it makes it difficult to play around mawile due to the fact it can run both of these sets to great success, and it's harder to read what set it may be running by looking at team preview (as opposed to charizard being charizard x or y, or if tyranitar is scarf smooth rock or mega, etc) as they both fit into offensive teams well, so if you mispredict you may easily lose more pokemon that you anticipated to lose.

sorry if i repeated stuff said by others, but that's just my thoughts on why i feel mawile is too much for the tier.
 
Well, on some level you can guess a set based on team support, but not every M-Mawile is SubPunch, that's part of the reason it's dangerous, it's not viable with just one move set.

However I think you can still call bull on both those status move for deeper reasons. Every Mawile that isn't SubPunch has Swords Dance. And if you've read enough posts here you know +2 burnt M-Mawile still 2HKOs basically everything (while only getting hit once itself thanks to Sucker Punch.) So even if it's not behind a Sub and you burn it. Now your Will-o-Wisper is dead, or you switched it out in which case what ever you switched in is dead. Burning it doesn't prevent it from netting 2 KOs on you (or at least netting one and basically incapacitating 2 other things) in addition to the fact that many times it's operating from behind a sub.

Spore is a terrible argument becasue if that's what you need to beat M-Mawile it means you failed team building the moment you didn't put one of two specific pokes on your team which is just... about as restrictive as team building gets.. it's like playing in Ubers......
You basically agreed with my assessment. I prefaced my comment by saying it is arguably its most prominent set, not its only set.

However, even with that being said, like someone mentioned earlier, if I run SD and know my opponent is about to retaliate with Spore, you simply switch into a mon that could absorb the Spore and then bring in Mawile afterwards since the Sleep Clause is now in effect and you can't put Mawile to sleep... what then?

I tell you, you get swept unless you have a Fire or Ground type that can do the following:

1. Reliably switch in and absorb a Play Rough-Sucker Punch Combo. Not very likely, and for the love of everything holy, please don't mention Arcanine here.

OR

2. You sac a mon, which mean you already down 0-1 in the battle and give your Fire/Ground mon a clean switch to go 1v1 against Mawile, however, what stops the opponent from switching into their counter to a Fire/Ground mon as per the fact that they just built their entire team around Mawile's seeping capabilities.

Either way you slice it, Mawile brings so many advantages, not just from an battling standpoint, but from a team building standpoint as well.
 
Ok people here are over reacting mega mawile is strong as A LOT of you have said but what poeple dont get is that there are counters heatran isnt the best anymore but sucker punch is not that much of a problem i have faced mega mawile with a latios normal set scarfed no defensive evs and it did 59% to it what poeple arent saying is that people could counter it with taunt to stop swords dance and maybe torment so it cannot spam sucker punch.
i also like using landorus-i earth power from that thing is a guarenteed OHKO 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 476-562 (156.5 - 184.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Also people say sucker punch is a problem pp stall it or find a way around it because sucker punch is not in any way unpredicatble
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Ok people here are over reacting mega mawile is strong as A LOT of you have said but what poeple dont get is that there are counters heatran isnt the best anymore but sucker punch is not that much of a problem i have faced mega mawile with a latios normal set scarfed no defensive evs and it did 59% to it what poeple arent saying is that people could counter it with taunt to stop swords dance and maybe torment so it cannot spam sucker punch.
i also like using landorus-i earth power from that thing is a guarenteed OHKO 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 476-562 (156.5 - 184.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also people say sucker punch is a problem pp stall it or find a way around it because sucker punch is not in any way unpredicatble
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 303-357 (94.9 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after SR)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 357-421 (111.9 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Lando cannot switch in period. Sub can just smack it with Play Rough while SD will probably be boosted by the time you come in.
 
It seems to me that while MMaw is certainly very,very strong, the problem lies in the Physical aspect of the metagame.


There is a strong lack of special attack counters/checks in almost every scenario listed. This can probably be attributed to stealth rock presence (fire types like volcarana, charizard) and a deficit of special-based ground attacks in general (I think only earth power?), and the lack of a pokemon who can take a suckerpunch or PR in order to at least 2HKO this womanb

Has anyone done calculations involving SpaNido taking hits or dishing them out?
 
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 303-357 (94.9 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 357-421 (111.9 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


0/10 Troll harder next time.
Who says i was trolling true that could happen but what pokemon is faster what pokemon wouldnt be able to set that up on it due to earth power tell me and 0/10 u were the one trying to counter my argument while trolling yourself (that combo never seems to work)
 
It seems to me that while MMaw is certainly very,very strong, the problem lies in the Physical aspect of the metagame.


There is a strong lack of special attack counters/checks in almost every scenario listed. This can probably be attributed to stealth rock presence (fire types like volcarana, charizard) and a deficit of special-based ground attacks in general (I think only earth power?).

Has anyone done calculations involving SpaNido taking hits or dishing them out?
dude nidoking probably wouldnt live a attack from it but sash earth power may be able to take it out 252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 300-354 (98.6 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
 
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