Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Sergeant Spooky]

LOL, more like the other way around. Sand teams are a huge annoyance to Drizzle teams and Tyranitar is everywhere which kind of makes it hard to be effective. Drizzle teams would rather face a weather less team.

Uh have you ever used a Rain team? Half of the team, at minimum, will naturally beat T-Tar 1v1. It's not beating Kabtuops, as much special bulk as it has it's not switching in to Specs Hydro Pump, Scald is everywhere, Ferrothorn is on a lot of rain teams as an Azumarill check and you don't beat that without Fire Blast, Tornadus-T has Focus Blast, Mega Sheep has Focus Blast... and of course, Rain is not so rigid an archetype, like Sand, so it's not like they can't just use a dedicated T-Tar check (which just comes naturally but whatever.)

T-Tar doesn't "make it hard to be effective." It's just kind of annoying at best, mostly because it cancels out Rain and stops a Swift Swim sweep (even if that usually means it sacs itself) which can lose you the game if you don't have any other way of setting it back up.

Oh and if that weatherless team is stall then yeah I'd rather vs. Sand.

 

[Jukain]

any good rain eats up stall, idk what you're talking about...

rain has matchup issues with sand because it's hard-pressed to handle exca. synergy-wise just not much fits. zong i guess, maybe land-t? outside of those it's hard. drill is a big pain for those teams. plus, sand teams commonly carry pokemon such as av azumarill, ferrothorn, and amoonguss, which are major pains for rain. many standard-ish sand teams cause issues for rain.

 

[Gloating]

Uh have you ever used a Rain team? Half of the team, at minimum, will naturally beat T-Tar 1v1. It's not beating Kabtuops, as much special bulk as it has it's not switching in to Specs Hydro Pump, Scald is everywhere, Ferrothorn is on a lot of rain teams as an Azumarill check and you don't beat that without Fire Blast, Tornadus-T has Focus Blast, Mega Sheep has Focus Blast... and of course, Rain is not so rigid an archetype, like Sand, so it's not like they can't just use a dedicated T-Tar check (which just comes naturally but whatever.)

T-Tar doesn't "make it hard to be effective." It's just kind of annoying at best, mostly because it cancels out Rain and stops a Swift Swim sweep (even if that usually means it sacs itself) which can lose you the game if you don't have any other way of setting it back up.

Oh and if that weatherless team is stall then yeah I'd rather vs. Sand.

My bad, I'll admit my other post was bad but to say it flat out destroys sand teams is just completely false and laughable. Tyranitar doesn't even need to take any hits as it only needs to be sent out to set up sand and offense will now have an easier time against them because now Politoed has to be sent out again because Kabutops or Kingdra need their speed boost to stand a chance which totally ruins their momentum. Also I've found rain teams to be pretty weak to CB Talonflame which is like very common and Politoed has to be kept healthy or stuff like Tyranitar and Bisharp can just Pursuit it. So yes Tyranitar does indeed make it harder to be effective. Then there's also Stall which without Mega Mawile it's going to be harder to break trough and Gothitelle that's used on some stall teams completely shits over Politoed so I don't think Politoed should move up.

 

[MilkyWay]

any good rain eats up stall, idk what you're talking about...

rain has matchup issues with sand because it's hard-pressed to handle exca. synergy-wise just not much fits. zong i guess, maybe land-t? outside of those it's hard. drill is a big pain for those teams. plus, sand teams commonly carry pokemon such as av azumarill, ferrothorn, and amoonguss, which are major pains for rain. many standard-ish sand teams cause issues for rain.

Ive used rain extensively and i think you have it backwards, any good rain team does pretty well against sand while it struggles a lot more against stall. Excadrill is checked/countered by many pokemon that you'd want on a standard rain team. Defensive Politoed, any Swift Swimmer, Tornadus-T with Focus Blast or Superpower, Ferrothorn, Thundurus with Focus Blast or Superpower, even Defensive Mega Scizor does well as it can bring in another poke with a slow u-turn. You can apply apply all of what i just said to Tyranitar too, which is really nice. And even if these pokes are still a problem for your rain team, you could still add something like Landorus-T or Garchomp to help out.

Stall, on the other hand, can be quite a nuisance to rain. Taunt Thundurus, Tornadus-T, Specs Omastar, and Mega Heracross are the only (sorta) standard stall breakers on rain teams and even with these guys stall can still be a huge pain in the ass. I suppose Encore Politoed deserves a special mention as well, but often times you need to be running Encore Politoed, Tornadus-T, and a specs swift swimmer to even have a chance vs stall unless you are using mega heracross.

 

[Flamer]

Nominating Ferrothorn for A+

Ferro is a complete monster atm. Well distributed stats in tandem with godlike typing and amazing movepool make this guy one of the best grass types in OU. Grass/Steel typing shits on over 50% of the best offensive mons and setup sweepers, including Azumarill, Excadrill, Gyarados(Mega), TTar(Mega), Dragonite, Mega Zor, Manaphy, Kabutops, Chomp and the list goes on (I only skimmed through the S-B+ mons). Not only that, due to his bulk, Ferrothorn also can check many other prominent mons as a last resort, including Bisharp, the Lati Twins, Lando-T and Mamoswine. Even though this typing does give Ferro several crippling weaknesses, especially Fire, Ferro has the bulk to avoid getting OHKOed by almost every mon that Uses HP Fire as coverage (the exception being Greninja) and even some STAB SE moves.

Ferrothorn also has an extensive support movepool that can be tailored to your every need, including SR, T-Wave, Leech Seed and Spikes. And if all that wasn't enough, Ferrothorn can fit on almost any team as a SR setter and overall glue just by virtue of it's amazing attributes. He doesn't cost a mega slot and doesn't rely on his ability/item. The steel type may have lost a lot in the transition to XY, but Ferrothorn most definitely hasn't.

tl;dr Ferro is gud, move to A+

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Nominating Ferrothorn for A+

Ferro is a complete monster atm. Well distributed stats in tandem with godlike typing and amazing movepool make this guy one of the best grass types in OU. Grass/Steel typing shits on over 50% of the best offensive mons and setup sweepers, including Azumarill, Excadrill, Gyarados(Mega), TTar(Mega), Dragonite, Mega Zor, Manaphy, Kabutops, Chomp and the list goes on (I only skimmed through the S-B+ mons). Not only that, due to his bulk, Ferrothorn also can check many other prominent mons as a last resort, including Bisharp, the Lati Twins, Lando-T and Mamoswine. Even though this typing does give Ferro several crippling weaknesses, especially Fire, Ferro has the bulk to avoid getting OHKOed by almost every mon that Uses HP Fire as coverage (the exception being Greninja) and even some STAB SE moves.

Ferrothorn also has an extensive support movepool that can be tailored to your every need, including SR, T-Wave, Leech Seed and Spikes. And if all that wasn't enough, Ferrothorn can fit on almost any team as a SR setter and overall glue just by virtue of it's amazing attributes. He doesn't cost a mega slot and doesn't rely on his ability/item. The steel type may have lost a lot in the transition to XY, but Ferrothorn most definitely hasn't.

tl;dr Ferro is gud, move to A+

Ferrothorn should stay A. It can't reliably stop many of the Pokemon you have listed. CB Azumarill OHKOes with Superpower, Mega Gyarados doesn't give a damn about Gyro Ball variants (4MSS much?), Mega TTar has Fire Punch, some Mega Scizor run Superpower for things such as Bisharp and Excadrill, Kabutops threatens with Low Kick, especially after a Swords Dance. Chomp has Fire Fang/Blast and +2 Earthquake can OHKO. Bisharp resists both Power Whip and Gyro Ball lol. Some Landorus-T and Mamoswine run Superpower.

I do agree with the support movepool, however, and add Knock Off to that list. But that's not enough in my opinion to move it to A+, especially since rain is not that good anymore and there are a lot of higher-ranked Pokemon that can threaten Ferrothorn. Keep Ferro A

 

[trc]

So I've been away for a bit but I feel like some changes are worth happening, so lets talk about them

Tyranitar stays in A Rank

I personally believe Tyranitar is fine in A Rank, and while I'm not too opposed to it being in A+ rank, I prefer A Rank for it. There are too sets that regular Tyranitar commonly runs, Choice Scarf and Smooth Rock / Focus Sash support leads for Excadrill sand offense. Obviously sand offense is one of the most powerful playstyles in the game, and was once dominating both the ladder and Smogon Tour. It's slightly been adapted to I think, and while it is still an amazing Pokemon, able to setup Stealth Rocks easily, while simultaneously bearing support to a powerful playstyle, that playstyle isn't strong and dominant enough anymore for Tyranitar to maintain it's A+ Rank. I'm by no means saying it's bad, A Rank means it is a solid choice on almost any team, but Tyranitar isn't the devastating sweeper on sand, it's the Pokemon we must keep alive so that Excadrill can sweep. Like I said, I can easily be swayed, but I believe this ranking is fine for now. I'm not including Choice Scarf Tyranitar as a potential bolster to its rank as the set is very slow for a revenge killer, and while it takes on many Pokemon well, it is incredibly to easy to setup on. You just Pursuited a Latios so Mega Charizard Y can wallbreak easier? Cool, but now my Mega Gyarados / Tyranitar can setup a DD and beat your team. I just can't compare it to the powerful threats in A+ at the moment.

Gothitelle moves down to B- Rank

Honestly, the Gothitelle phase is over. Everyone and their mothers was running Choice Scarf Gothitelle for a while with the most retarded suboptimal set you could run, but it gave it hype and then people started using the Choice Specs set. With Aegislash gone and some Mega Pokemon on the rise, Gothitelle's average at best stallbreaking role has been eclipsed by the likes of actually powerful offensive stallbreakers, such as Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, and Mega Gardevoir. It is also very easy to play around, regardless of the fact that eliminates the switching dynamic, as double switching against it is so easy to predict. Its role in the metagame just isn't that valuable at the moment, but it can still potentially help a setup sweeper beat a Pokemon, so it should be in the same rank as Magnezone, which performs similarly.

Mega Scizor moves down to A Rank

Jukain convinced me pretty well on this one, but other accomplished players have also said this as well. Make no mistake, it is still a great bulky utility check to a lot of Pokemon, such as Azumarill, Will-o-Wisp-less Mega Gardevoir, and Bisharp, while also having a decent Swords Dance set, but it fares pretty badly against many of the top threats at the moment. Some of the ones Jukain mentioned are pretty obvious: Rotom-W, Talonflame, Keldeo, Mega Charizard X and Y, Thundurus, Landorus, regular Gyarados, and Heatran are all really common and often prevent Mega Sciaor from actually sweeping, while also being great Pokemon found on most teams. Things like Latios and Greninja are being commonly seen with Hidden Power Fire for Ferrothorn, which indirectly affects Mega Scizor too. However, I find myself paraphrasing Jukain again when I say that I cannot compare Mega Scizor to other Pokemon in the A+ Rank, Mega sweepers such as Mega Gyarados, Mega Tyranitar, and Mega Pinsir, all devastating sweepers. I cannot place Mega Scizor with them.

Terrakion moves up to A+ Rank

In the Aegislash-less metagame, Terrakion is clearly tremendously better, and is a fantastic Pokemon more than worthy of A+ Rank. It has an amazing offensive Stealth Rock set, with almost flawless coverage in its STAB moves, and also having Taunt as well. It is a great lead for offensive teams and sees a lot of usage. The offensive LO set is even more devastating and has amazing coverage and amazing power and is honestly just a great offensive Pokemon, lol. I feel like I'm rambling, but when a physical Pokemon has enough coverage just to run HP Ice for Landorus-T / Physically Defensive Gliscor, it's bound to be an offensive threat. I've been running a Substitute + Swords Dance set with a Salac Berry and it's pretty great, it absolutely cleans through slightly weakened teams while being safe from revenge kills and pretty damn fast. Terrakion is still a solid Choice Scarf user though, with the raw stats and STAB combination to revenge kill all of the best Mega sweepers (Gyarados / Tyranitar / Pinsir / Charizard X). Then of course there's the absurdly powerful CB set. I can't see why this wouldn't be in A+ Rank.

Slowbro and Amoonguss move up to A- Rank, Alomomola moves up to B+ Rank

I'm grouping these Pokemon together because they're very similar: they wall a lot of shit and never die. Seriously, that's essentially it. They're all bulky as fuck and Regenerator is such an amazing ability for a defensive Pokemon that these all deserve a raise. Slowbro is a pretty good answer to a lot of Pokemon, such as Mega Gyarados, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Charizard X, Excadrill, Talonflame, Mamoswine, and it also has a reliable recovery move in addition to Regenerator. However, two of the biggest threats at the moment (Mega Medicham and Terrakion) are also walled by it, conveniently enough, so it has even more merit in this metagame. Amoonguss is an amazing defensive Pokemon that serves as an answer to three S Rank threats (Keldeo, Azumarill, and Thundurus), also never dies, and has the immensely useful Spore. It fares pretty well against a large amount of top-tier threats, and is a pretty reliable Pokemon just to put on any team. Alomomola is something I've used and loved all through XY OU, way before WCOP and even Branflakes's RMT lol, it's a great Pokemon that was supremely underrated. It's HP is absolutely massive, it has the best typing of the three Pokemon here, and takes on a variety of popular threats (a lot are the same as Slowbro). However, its offensive presence is much smaller so it can be taken advantage of with Substitute Pokemon and the like, hence a placement one rank below the other two.

The C Rank Revamp

I agree with Jukain's proposed C Rankings (for reference: Hawlucha, Bronzong, Jirachi, Goodra, Cresselia, Slowking, Alakazam, Omastar, and Mega Houndoom). I'd talk about them but I'd just end up saying the same things that he does so I'll just quote him:

i realize this is a rather massive overhaul, but i think this should be c rank if we want to operate under the definiton of 'pokemon with a niche that has a bit of merit in the meta' (as it was described to me by trc). hawlucha, nice sweeper with aegi gone. p damn strong, damn near impossible to outspeed after unburden. sub can even avoid revenge kills! bronzong, p nice check/counter to different things (sand drill, mega gard, lati@s, kyub, mamoswine, megatar, lando [kinda], pinsir [if def spread]) and sets rocks. jirachi isn't ranked but is better than these other mons anyways. nice answer to some different things too, mainly gard and lati@s, also nice against the likes of greninja, tons of utility between wish, mexican strategies, rocks, possible hw even, etc. scarf is great, can cripple a mon with trick or use the ever-valuable healing wish, able to revenge kill different things and even more with some luck plus u-turn to keep momentum in its user's favor (btw moveset: iron head / u-turn / zen headbutt / healing wish or trick). other sets like ebelt/shuca lure have been useful in my experience as well as a rocker and lure for various threats to offense. av goodra gets a lot of hate but it's alright, excellent check to various electrics and char y and beats like every non-gard/fable special attacker 1v1 (not even 2hkoed by ninja w. no rocks bc bulk). cress walls cham and lando nice n ez, reflect so dgaf about pursuit, also handles stuff like terrak, drill, and thund because it's just that fat. plus has decent recovery at least (outside of sand). slowking has a nice niche as a slowbro that actually beats keldeo basically. av set checks/counters like every special attacker every and has good coverage/spatk to boot, + regen so it stays healthy easily. sash zam is a p alright revenge killer, plus it's fast and significantly threatening offensively (though generally inferior to megazam). mg protects it from hazards/ss damage, so its sash is practically guaranteed intact at any point in the game should you keep zam out of harm's way. omastar hits really really hard in rain, 2hkoes even water resists with specs because it's just that strong. it literally only needs its water stab and maybe uses ice beam once in a blue moon, 3x water stab + ib is a very legit moveset. lo smash actually 2hkoes chansey after a boost lol, which is p cool. only issue is it competes with kabutops for a teamslot and it's kinda slow, so scarfers 100+ range can easily revenge kill it (chomp, rak, keld). megadoom can stallbreak nicely and is fast as fuck with strong stabs so matches up decently vs offense (wisp lures the counters av azumarill and tyranitar).

C- is the Rank where we see the Pokemon that we wouldn't use unless we were being very specific about what we wanted, I think C Rank is the link where we can put these things on a team if we want without it being TOO disadvantageous if not completely built around.

The rankings are pretty close to ideal at the moment, even with the new meta shifts, which is great. After this, the C rankings shouldn't need too much ironing out, all we need to wait for is Mawile to be gone

 

[theV8man]

Ferrothorn should stay A. It can't reliably stop many of the Pokemon you have listed. CB Azumarill OHKOes with Superpower, Mega Gyarados doesn't give a damn about Gyro Ball variants (4MSS much?), Mega TTar has Fire Punch, some Mega Scizor run Superpower for things such as Bisharp and Excadrill, Kabutops threatens with Low Kick, especially after a Swords Dance. Chomp has Fire Fang/Blast and +2 Earthquake can OHKO. Bisharp resists both Power Whip and Gyro Ball lol. Some Landorus-T and Mamoswine run Superpower.

I do agree with the support movepool, however, and add Knock Off to that list. But that's not enough in my opinion to move it to A+, especially since rain is not that good anymore and there are a lot of higher-ranked Pokemon that can threaten Ferrothorn. Keep Ferro A

I don't think we can undermine the viability of a Pokemon based on moves that what it checks/counters can sometimes run. The CB Azumarill/Garchomp thing is correct (in some cases). However, pretty much any Ferrothorn will beat Mega-Gyarados with a combination of Leech Seed, Protect, Iron Barbs, especially Power Whip, and with some Dragon Dances up, Gyarados will give a damn about Gyro Ball.
Mega Tyranitar can run Fire Punch, but it would much rather run Ice Punch so it can beat things that tend to threaten its sweep more commonly, like Lando-I and Gliscor.
Mega-Scizor's Superpower doesn't actually do that much damage even with full investment, and with the Attack drops/Leech Seed Ferrothorn is having a good time. If Scizor is SD'ing it's most likely running Bullet Punch and Knock Off as attacking moves... Also, the most common Scizor set doesn't have problems with Bisharp or non-LO Exca, so it doesn't really need to sacrifice a moveslot for superpower. This sort of goes for Lando-i and Mamo as well, who in most cases don't like running Superpower at the cost of utility and such.
Kabutops is running Stone Edge/Aqua Jet/SD/Waterfall. I don't think I'm wrong about this, but you need Waterfall for smashing things, Stone Edge for water resists (e.g. azumarill), and Aqua Jet for priority in/out of rain.
I don't know if I agree with Ferrothorn moving to A+, but it's a pretty reliable switch in to all the stuff above with the exception of Azu/Chomp.

 

[JMach]

While I agree that my choice of words was really poor, there is no denying that Talonflame has had a major impact on Choice Scarf users and they are not nearly as common as last gen.

No offence but I really don't agree with that statement. Most competitive teams these days still run a scarfer. I dunno, perhaps Talonflame has somewhat discouraged the use of things like Scarf Keldeo and Scarf Terrakion but let's be honest - Lando-T, Exca, Rotom-W, Diggersby, Chomp etc... There are plenty of viable Scarfers around that are incredibly common. I really don't feel TFlame's shaped the meta in that sense as much as you make out (although I agree it's a meta-defining force for sure).


I do, however, agree with regular Venu not being ranked. Sun just isn't that threatening anymore compared to the other weathers and it's far too niche of a playstyle to warrant Venu moving in.

I also support Toxicroak getting ranked somewhere. I know TFlame has him firmly under threat but one 'mon shouldn't totally stop another from being ranked. As is always said, teambuilding is there for a reason and you shouldn't be leaving Croak in vs TFlame in like 99% of situations that aren't to sack. Croak provides a cool answer to Crocune, gets relevant setup, can even use AV (although don't in OU lol), has a good movepool and has a number of handy resistances that allow it to come in and do some damage. I'd say at least somewhere in the D ranks to begin with but he has some very useful roles to play in OU and can function as a solid member of many teams.

TOXICROAK FOR D-/D

 

[procrastinat]

No offence but I really don't agree with that statement. Most competitive teams these days still run a scarfer. I dunno, perhaps Talonflame has somewhat discouraged the use of things like Scarf Keldeo and Scarf Terrakion but let's be honest - Lando-T, Exca, Rotom-W, Diggersby, Chomp etc... There are plenty of viable Scarfers around that are incredibly common. I really don't feel TFlame's shaped the meta in that sense as much as you make out (although I agree it's a meta-defining force for sure).

Talonflame has somawhat discouraged scarfers, that's true. Why use a scarf when Talonflame will revenge kill it while holding a choice band? Scarfer usage has declined significantly this generation, But Talonflame wasn't the sole cause. If anything, it was the combination of the introduction of talonflame and the unbanning of Thundurus that caused so many pokemon to ditch the scarf. The only users of the choice scarf that are used to handle boosted pokemon are usually both moderately bulky, to take a Brave Bird if needed, and are immune to Thunder Wave, like garchomp, Lando-T, Excadrill, and Rotom-W. I'm not saying scarf is a bad item this generation, only that it is more predictable, and requires a specific pokemon to be useful.

Onto other things...

I support Terrakion for A+,

Slowbro and Amoonguss to A-,

And Mega-Heracross to A.

Also on the fence about Alomafish.

 

[Baharoth]

I don't think we can undermine the viability of a Pokemon based on moves that what it checks/counters can sometimes run. The CB Azumarill/Garchomp thing is correct (in some cases). However, pretty much any Ferrothorn will beat Mega-Gyarados with a combination of Leech Seed, Protect, Iron Barbs, especially Power Whip, and with some Dragon Dances up, Gyarados will give a damn about Gyro Ball.
Mega Tyranitar can run Fire Punch, but it would much rather run Ice Punch so it can beat things that tend to threaten its sweep more commonly, like Lando-I and Gliscor.
Mega-Scizor's Superpower doesn't actually do that much damage even with full investment, and with the Attack drops/Leech Seed Ferrothorn is having a good time. If Scizor is SD'ing it's most likely running Bullet Punch and Knock Off as attacking moves... Also, the most common Scizor set doesn't have problems with Bisharp or non-LO Exca, so it doesn't really need to sacrifice a moveslot for superpower. This sort of goes for Lando-i and Mamo as well, who in most cases don't like running Superpower at the cost of utility and such.
Kabutops is running Stone Edge/Aqua Jet/SD/Waterfall. I don't think I'm wrong about this, but you need Waterfall for smashing things, Stone Edge for water resists (e.g. azumarill), and Aqua Jet for priority in/out of rain.
I don't know if I agree with Ferrothorn moving to A+, but it's a pretty reliable switch in to all the stuff above with the exception of Azu/Chomp.

While this is all true, the fact remains that Ferro is never a save switch in. Pretty much everything it wants to check often enough runs coverage moves to fuck it up. Superpower on Azu, Fireblast on Chomp/TTar (Mega ttar has fire Punch, so does Dragonite), Latis can run hp fire to deal with him and Scizor, Greninja often has hp fire since there is no reason for dark pulse anymore, hell even KyuB often runs Hp Fire. You can never rely on Ferro to deal with anything. During teambuilding you cant slap him on your team and consider these threats covered, you always need to have other switchins/checks for them. Even Gyarados can break him with taunt, all the more if he lacks power whip.

Its a nice utility mon to slap on your team that can also serve as a unreliable secondary check to some things but its just not consistent enough to go anywhere near A+ imo.

 

[Tainic]

I dunno about Ferro, but keep in mind that the amount of Pokes running coverage just for it (Well, and Zor/Skarm.) shows how a threat it is and how it needs to be taken care of, since it can do so much by itself if not taken into account, hence more or less justifying the A+.

Slowbro/Amoongus both should go up, don't really know about Luvdisc2 since it's a setup fodder in most cases, but the formers are solid answers to several top tiers (Reliably stopping Azumarill/Keldeo without using a mega slot for Venu is a huge thing going for them.), Amoongus can even Sleep a Pokemon that could be dangerous to neuter it, like Charizard. Also shouldn't need to mention Slowbro (Can't wait for his mega.) reliably stops a lot of other physical threats, among whom most of the Fighting types, Talonflame, most Ground types etc. Also both pack Regenerator, which probably is one of the best abilities a Defensive Pokemon could ask for. A- is appropriate.

I also support TTar back to A+, I won't really develop since everything has been said earlier, but I have to repeat it's really versatile and can take a lot of roles.

Also yes to Terrakion for A+, with Aegislash gone, his STAB combo is back to its former glory, making it insanely hard to switch into, being able to Wallbreak, Clean, Revenge Kill while also having a ton of sets, be it Bander, Scarf, Dancer, Rock Polish, Double Boost, Lead, Sub + Boost move etc, it's dangerous and versatile, its only major flaw being that his type makes him vulnerable to a lot of prios in OU.

and yes to Staraptor rising as well, with its only true hard counter gone it became the most annoying piece of shit lying in the ladder, so hard to take hit from it.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

About Sun, it's not dead because of Talonflame alone. In fact, Talonflame is even more unviuable oin sun teams because stacking SR weakness.

The problem with sun is that if you want a sun team, you have to use Ninetales, who apart of setting Sun is a very bad pokemon. Other problem is to use Ninetales, you have to have a dedicated sun team because otheriwse, Ninetales is not worth it (it's not like Sandstorm, where with Tyranitar + Excadrill is more than enough).

Also, because Ninetales is shitty, you are forced to run at least 2 weather setters and in many cases, you have to run 3 weather setters (Ninetales + MCharizard Y + Manual sun setter).

And the other problem is that there aren0't many Grass types that can abuse sun apart of Mega Venusaur.

With all of this, if weather teams (specially rain teams) are relatively common, Ninetales could have a niche because Sun destroys Rain hard and Ninetales is the only setter of sun. I think that Ninetales and Venusaur belong to D rank.

Also, I will note that unlike Mega Charizard Y, Ninetales gives to the team 4 more turns of sun.

Also, If you are using a sun team, I recommend using:
-Ninetales
-If you aren0t using Mega Houndoom or Mega Venusaur, Mega Charizard Y.
-A Grass type.
-Possibly a fourth abuser of Sun. If the pokemon isn't weak to Rocks, better. And if you use
-One of the two earlier mon could have Sunny Day to use when needed.
-It's recommended to have a Spinner/Defogger, like Excadrill, Lati@s, Mandibuzz, etc.
-And a pokemon that cover the weakness of your team. Please not use weak SR mons.

 

[Prinz]

Greninja for S Rank

I feel like Greninja deserved the S Rank, it's one of the best pokèmon right now, being able to outspeed a big portion of the metagame and to hit it hard. It's also quite unpredictable because of the Hidden Power he's running, which let it to bypass some of his checks like Azumarill with HP Grass and Ferrothorn with HP Fire. It can also run Shadow Sneak which can turn on some mindgame against Conkelduur, Excadrill (on the Rapid Spin) or on Diggersby to make some examples, it can also run U-Turn to keep momentum and to put pressure on the specially defensive wall that should switch on Mawile. Example: Greninja uses U-Turn on Chansey and Mawile takes advantage of that. It can also run Spikes to support pretty offensive teams now that both Deoxys-S and D are gone, and thats a really cool niche. Another cool niche is to run Substitute to bypass Sucker Punch users like Bisharp or Mawile or to sub in the face of your opponent when do you want it is switching his Choice Scarf mon on a resisted move (against Scarf Heatran for example, which is becoming more and more common). In summary, I think Greninja deserves the S Rank because of its unpredictability alongside with his power and speed and as well as the ability to run some interesting supporting moves, that allows it to be one of the best offensive mons right now, which are very few counters as well (I guess Chansey / Blissey are the only very switch in on this mon, since other mons like Azumarill or Ferrothorn can be shot down by the right move). I guess that the A+ rank could be fine as well, but I definitely think that Greninja quite deserves the S-Rank as well, so lets see what you guys think about that.

 

[Scubasage]

Greninja for S Rank

I feel like Greninja deserved the S Rank, it's one of the best pokèmon right now, being able to outspeed a big portion of the metagame and to hit it hard. It's also quite unpredictable because of the Hidden Power he's running, which let it to bypass some of his checks like Azumarill with HP Grass and Ferrothorn with HP Fire. It can also run Shadow Sneak which can turn on some mindgame against Conkelduur, Excadrill (on the Rapid Spin) or on Diggersby to make some examples, it can also run U-Turn to keep momentum and to put pressure on the specially defensive wall that should switch on Mawile. Example: Greninja uses U-Turn on Chansey and Mawile takes advantage of that. It can also run Spikes to support pretty offensive teams now that both Deoxys-S and D are gone, and thats a really cool niche. Another cool niche is to run Substitute to bypass Sucker Punch users like Bisharp or Mawile or to sub in the face of your opponent when do you want it is switching his Choice Scarf mon on a resisted move (against Scarf Heatran for example, which is becoming more and more common). In summary, I think Greninja deserves the S Rank because of its unpredictability alongside with his power and speed and as well as the ability to run some interesting supporting moves, that allows it to be one of the best offensive mons right now, which are very few counters as well (I guess Chansey / Blissey are the only very switch in on this mon, since other mons like Azumarill or Ferrothorn can be shot down by the right move). I guess that the A+ rank could be fine as well, but I definitely think that Greninja quite deserves the S-Rank as well, so lets see what you guys think about that.

Shadow Sneak doesn't do anything on Diggersby, since unless it's scarfed it'll switch out, and if it's locked into anything other than Return it'll kill you anyways. You also do no damage to Diggersby with Shadow Sneak, since he's normal type. Conkeldurr carries Knock Off anyways, so it doesn't help against him either much.

Spikes isn't much of a niche, as there are lots of other spikes users that do the job better, even if it means running a bulky mon on HO (Deoxys-D was ran for spikes WAY more often than Deo-S on HO for example). Substitute isn't a niche, literally all pokemon that can learn TMs (except for Wobbuffet, Wynaut, Kricketot, Burmy, Tynamo and Spewpa) learns Substitute. It's subs are also incredibly weak, and if you switch Greninja into a Sucker Punch user, you'll still be part Dark type and therefore resist the Sucker Punch anyways.

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 228-269 (79.7 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Even at +2 and with SR, the strongest Sucker Punch in OU doesn't guarantee a KO. So using Sub to avoid Sucker Punches is a pretty moot point, and not really a niche.

U-turn is nice, but it's hard to fit onto movesets because it really, really wants Hydro Pump, Extrasensory, Ice Beam and a Hidden Power (Grass or Fire).

Greninja is an alright revenge killer, but it's not much of a wallbreaker or sweeper, it's utility looks great on paper but is actually quite limited in practice, a lot of bulky pokemon that aren't weak to one of its moves can easily deal with it, and frankly, its paper thin defenses means you can only switch it in on resisted hits, and it can't take more than two of those anyways.

 

[Albacore]

I honestly think Greninja may well be worth putting in S rank. Greninja has always been very good, but the fact that we've decided to lower the standards of what it takes to be an S rank means that Greninja may well be worthy of said rank, this may be just me, but I don't really see Keldeo as being S but not Greninja.
Anyway, Greninja ia a nightmare for offense without Azumarill which even fails to counter HP Grass variants (even the AV set can't properly switch in after rocks), is really hard to switch into, probabaly more so than Keldeo, and outspeeds basically the enite unboosted metagame. The most a lot of offensive teams can do is just paralyze it with Thundurus which dies in the process. Yes, it is frail, but that doesn't matter that much since the only common things that can outpace it are priority users like Talonflame and Breloom, and Scarfers like Garchomp and Terrakion, neither of which are particularly difficult to switch into. Needs basically no supporty at all besides I guess pursuit for Chansey, easy to put on a team, low-risk, guarantees an improved matchup vs offense, yeah, this seems S-worthy to me.

I really dissagree with Mega-Scizor moving down, it's still a great pivot that doubvles up as a win condition which is pretty unique in this metagame. Yes, it is stopped cold by a few things, but that's compounded by the fact that it's possibly the easiest Pokemon to setup with. MScizor just sets up over such a large portion of the metagame it's absurd, and the ability to chip away at its counters really helps pull of a lategame sweep.

Alomomola fits right at home in B+. Not much to say about it other than the fact that it's a ridiculously good wishpasser, and if I need one I usually pick Alomomola since it's so blatantly good at it.
I also think Quagsire might need to be dropped to B. Simply put, it suffers too much competetion from Alomomola and Slowbro who I find to be usually the better picks. Sure, Unaware is great, but Stall seems to have moved away from Unaware stacking to Regen stacking, hence the popularity of Alomomola atm, and Quagsire is simply not the token bulky water on stall anymore.

 

[Srn]

I don't think greninja deserves the S rank personally:

Its super frail, and needs to come in after a sack or predicted double; its very difficult to switch into nearly anything and has zero bulk.
Its not even amazingly strong, I mean it is pretty strong but even with STAB on everything 103 base sp. att only goes so far
Its fast but offense commonly carries scarfers or has sand rush exca to check it even without azu, and basically any dragon dancer at +1 outspeeds it. Hell mega ttar even sets up on it O_O.
Finally, its kind of predictable as to what its going to do: just be a special attacker. Sure you have to scout for hp fire or hp grass, but that's pretty much the only relevant variation that you even have to worry about

Its really fast and pretty strong and stuff, but it can't perform many roles, can't take a hit, and isn't incredibly powerful, so I personally see it at home in A+

 

[theV8man]

Kind of irrelevant, but as a Trick Room user Greninja gets destroyed every time xD.

I don't think greninja deserves the S rank personally:

Its super frail, and needs to come in after a sack or predicted double; its very difficult to switch into nearly anything and has zero bulk.
Its not even amazingly strong, I mean it is pretty strong but even with STAB on everything 103 base sp. att only goes so far
Its fast but offense commonly carries scarfers or has sand rush exca to check it even without azu, and basically any dragon dancer at +1 outspeeds it. Hell mega ttar even sets up on it O_O.
Finally, its kind of predictable as to what its going to do: just be a special attacker. Sure you have to scout for hp fire or hp grass, but that's pretty much the only relevant variation that you even have to worry about

Its really fast and pretty strong and stuff, but it can't perform many roles, can't take a hit, and isn't incredibly powerful, so I personally see it at home in A+

I agree with all of the above but have some more things to say: Greninja can really only run one type of set. If were gonna put something in S rank that can only do one thing it better be goddamn amazing at what it does. Mega Pinsir was in S rank even though it only did one thing because it was fantastic at that one set it ran. Greninja, on the other hand, while being great at it's, isn't amazing. Depending on the HP it gets completely walled, and against Pokemon with high special defense even super effective hits don't hit hard enough.

Greninja poses a great threat to offense, but by slapping AV Azumarill, Talonflame, or a scarfer, you always have a check. Against other playstyles, including any kind of weather, balance or stall, I find Greninja's power underwhelming. With hazards and LO recoil I feel like this thing does half the job for me every game just by firing off measly attacks that I can wall over and over again with my Porygon 2 and even Cresselia.

 

[Inflikted]

Shadow Sneak doesn't do anything on Diggersby, since unless it's scarfed it'll switch out, and if it's locked into anything other than Return it'll kill you anyways. You also do no damage to Diggersby with Shadow Sneak, since he's normal type. Conkeldurr carries Knock Off anyways, so it doesn't help against him either much.

Shadow sneak prevents Diggersby from revenge killing a weakened Greninja, as you can use Sneak on a predicted Quick Attack to change your type to ghost and force out / ko the Diggersby in the following turn, and it also trolls scarfed variants (and scarf staraptor locked into double edge). It also allows Greninja to act as an emergency spinblocker against Excadrill under sand, wasting 1 turn of sand if you predict the spin right and forcing the Excadrill to attack; this is p cool if you absolutely need to keep rocks up.

I'm aware that it's very situational but it's not like it has zero utility, I will edit in a replay of shadow sneak working when I won't be on mobile

Regarding Greninja for S Rank, I'm not sure if I agree with that, as while Greninja poses a huge threat to any offensive team, it's not a threat that lasts long. Its reliance on life orb coupled with its frailty means that it will end up being in range of many priority moves very quickly; so while most offensive teams are weak to Greninja they will rarely end up getting swept by it if they pack decently strong priority moves. Its bad bulk also means that almost every scafer can revenge kill it.

Tl;dr it's a big threat but its flaws look slightly worse to me if compared to those of S Rank mons

 

[Baharoth]

Dont know about Greninja... normally i wouldnt consider this thing to be S rank worthy but with the meta as it is, offense only, its kinda amazing because it fucks those teams up realy realy bad. It outspeeds everything they usually have and offensive teams have a hard time switching something into it. Then there is Keldeo, if we put Keldeo into S rank i cant realy see why Greninja shouldnt. Both have basicly just 1 set but are kinda amazing at it. Greninja is arguably even more difficult to deal with for most teams because of its better coverage and ability to switch moves. Not to mention the far better speed tier.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Not really sure about Greninja. The meta is exactly what it wants: offense being the most viable play style, and it fucks offense sideways. On the other hand, it can really only get 1 kill at a time because it's really frail, and it takes a fuckton of chip damage from LO+SR. It can't switch into shit, and offense has means to cripple it via paralysis. I will say that Greninja has lots of options it can run and the fact that all of its coverage gets STAB and its incredible coverage means that every time it gets in vs offense it gets a kill. Also, in base type, its only weak to mach punch, which is worth noting. I'm overall neutral on Greninja going to s.

 

[Scubasage]

Shadow sneak prevents Diggersby from revenge killing a weakened Greninja, as you can use Sneak on a predicted Quick Attack to change your type to ghost and force out / ko the Diggersby in the following turn, and it also trolls scarfed variants (and scarf staraptor locked into double edge). It also allows Greninja to act as an emergency spinblocker against Excadrill under sand, wasting 1 turn of sand if you predict the spin right and forcing the Excadrill to attack; this is p cool if you absolutely need to keep rocks up.

If you're switching Greninja into Sand Excadrill, it either means the spin gets off anyways or you get KO'd by the Earthquake. Also, if Excadrill is in the sand, it outspeeds you and KOs you anyways, why would he bother with Rapid Spin?

And okay, so you Shadow Sneak, which does no damage to Diggersby and then his Quick Attack does no damage to you. Okay, now what? The two of you spam SS/QA? It also only trolls scarfed variants already locked into Return, if they are looked into Wild Charge or Earthquake then it doesn't do anything. Even if they are Scarf and locked into Return, the second you DON'T Shadow Sneak, you die, and you're not even damaging Diggersby while you're doing this. So you're just gonna PP stall it?

And if it's scarfed Diggersby coming in to revenge, it doesn't even need Quick Attack, so Shadow Sneak doesn't do anything there either.

And if you're coming in to revenge Diggersby then all he has to do is spam Quick Attack if he was SD, again, the second you stop using Shadow Sneak (and remember, you're not doing anything but PP stalling it by spamming Shadow Sneak) you just die.

Revenging Agility Diggersby? Forget about it.

 

[AsynchronousIO]

Ninja frog in S isn't that bad an idea. I've always been on the fence about Keldeo getting an S Rank (Keld is a monster, but I find its movepool kinda off-putting), but it can be argued that Greninja is almost as good. Greninja may not have Keldeo's raw power, nice bulk, or the ability to screw up its counters with Scald burns (well you can do that but that's not a good use of ninja frog), but it's blazingly fast, and has much better coverage with an awesome movepool that's always backed by STAB. It's a brilliant cleaner, the best user of Hidden Power in the game, and with Aegis gone it no longer really needs to run Dark Pulse which is nice neutral but not super-effective coverage and really hits just one mon. That way it can spike, use U-Turn to grab momentum, or even run Grass Knot to break other water-types. Ice Beam / Hydro Pump / Grass Knot / HP Fire just hits so much in OU super-effectively. Heck, you can even run Extrasensory if you're THAT afraid of Mega Venusaur.

Ninja frog is great. I dunno if it's Azumarill-great (Azu should've been S forever) but it's great. What it lacks in power and bulk it makes up for in sheer coverage and blazing speed, and being able to change your type in the clutch is a nice little bonus. It runs one set and exactly one set, but it does it pretty darn flawlessly.

 

[Prinz]

Shadow Sneak doesn't do anything on Diggersby, since unless it's scarfed it'll switch out, and if it's locked into anything other than Return it'll kill you anyways. You also do no damage to Diggersby with Shadow Sneak, since he's normal type. Conkeldurr carries Knock Off anyways, so it doesn't help against him either much.

Spikes isn't much of a niche, as there are lots of other spikes users that do the job better, even if it means running a bulky mon on HO (Deoxys-D was ran for spikes WAY more often than Deo-S on HO for example). Substitute isn't a niche, literally all pokemon that can learn TMs (except for Wobbuffet, Wynaut, Kricketot, Burmy, Tynamo and Spewpa) learns Substitute. It's subs are also incredibly weak, and if you switch Greninja into a Sucker Punch user, you'll still be part Dark type and therefore resist the Sucker Punch anyways.

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 228-269 (79.7 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Even at +2 and with SR, the strongest Sucker Punch in OU doesn't guarantee a KO. So using Sub to avoid Sucker Punches is a pretty moot point, and not really a niche.

U-turn is nice, but it's hard to fit onto movesets because it really, really wants Hydro Pump, Extrasensory, Ice Beam and a Hidden Power (Grass or Fire).

Greninja is an alright revenge killer, but it's not much of a wallbreaker or sweeper, it's utility looks great on paper but is actually quite limited in practice, a lot of bulky pokemon that aren't weak to one of its moves can easily deal with it, and frankly, its paper thin defenses means you can only switch it in on resisted hits, and it can't take more than two of those anyways.

As Inflikted said, Protean lets you being ghost-type so you can bypass Quick Attack and attack it with Hydro Pump / Ice Beam and you can prevent Sand Rush Excadrill's Rapid Spin for at least 1 turn, and 1 turn can be crucial against a sand offense matchup, that needs as many turns of sandstorm up as possible. Conkelduur can Knock Off thats right, but with Shadow Sneak you can force him at one 50 / 50 since you can just Extrasensory on the Knock Off, then you can do Shadow Sneak on the probably Mach Punch and kill it at the following turn.

Also I think that Spikes is a niche, they were always really important for hyper offense teams and with the ban of Deoxys-S and D there are almost 0 pokèmons that can use them effectively. Greninja can carry them quite well, providing for a good Spikers and a good heavy hitter as well. About Substitute, that is used against Sucker Punch users when you are at low health and they doesnt expect you to have Substitute and that means often a free kill. It's also nice, as I already mentioned before, when you predict the switch of opponent's scarfer on a resisted move like Heatran on a Ice Beam / Hidden Power or Keldeo on everything bar Extrasensory or HP Grass. The fact that almost every mon can carry it, doesnt mean every pokèmon is a good Substitute user, and even if Greninja has to not carry another coverage move when it uses Substitute, it's a good choice on it.

I know very well that Greninja is a super frail pokèmon, but Keldeo isn't used to switch on things as well. Of course it has better defenses overall, but it has also lower Speed and it's much more predictable, being its much used set Choice Specs or Choice Scarf (I have also seen some Substitute set with Petaya/Salac berry but it doesnt mean much imo), while Greninja can run lots of moves at his 4th slot that let it be very threatening to deal with. Also while it's very frail, you guys should admit that it can hits really hard everything bar Chansey / Blissey, and it's one of the best pokèmon in hyper offense overall.

 

[Zebstrika]

If you're switching Greninja into Sand Excadrill, it either means the spin gets off anyways or you get KO'd by the Earthquake. Also, if Excadrill is in the sand, it outspeeds you and KOs you anyways, why would he bother with Rapid Spin?

And okay, so you Shadow Sneak, which does no damage to Diggersby and then his Quick Attack does no damage to you. Okay, now what? The two of you spam SS/QA? It also only trolls scarfed variants already locked into Return, if they are looked into Wild Charge or Earthquake then it doesn't do anything. Even if they are Scarf and locked into Return, the second you DON'T Shadow Sneak, you die, and you're not even damaging Diggersby while you're doing this. So you're just gonna PP stall it?

And if it's scarfed Diggersby coming in to revenge, it doesn't even need Quick Attack, so Shadow Sneak doesn't do anything there either.

And if you're coming in to revenge Diggersby then all he has to do is spam Quick Attack if he was SD, again, the second you stop using Shadow Sneak (and remember, you're not doing anything but PP stalling it by spamming Shadow Sneak) you just die.

Revenging Agility Diggersby? Forget about it.

you don't have to spam shadow sneak. You use it once on the quick attack and you stay ghost type until ninja's next attack. If diggersby tries to qa again you will still be ghost type and now you can hit it with a super effective attack. Same for scarfed return

Shadow sneak is still niche as hell but know how to use it...