Yeah, I think that pretty much defines what we're trying to accomplish here: give the meta more diversity. If we discover that after banning a pokemon, new and different strategies start to emerge, we know that we made the right choice banning that particular pokemon. I would personally love to see some previously unknown or unused strategies start to take off, or at the very least, new pokemon using old strategies, possibly in slightly different ways. That's what it all boils down to, and why we take the time to discuss things like this: to make battling more fun.
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Wrecking Ball [Read Post 423 for Posting etiquette]
- Thread starter Nachos
- Start date
- Status
haunter
Banned deucer.
Please do not derail the topic of this thread. We're not going to test Mega-Gardevoir, Heracross, Medicham anytime soon. They're not remotely centralizing or overpowered to the point where a Suspect Test is needed. As I told Bloo the other day, I think that if Mawile gets banned, we'll give the metagame a few weeks to stabilize, then maybe consider new potential suspects.
As for Aegislash, I'm all for retesting it. However, this is not the time nor the place to discuss it.
Oh and, yeah, tehy's stall team has no problems with Mega-Cham or Heracross, with the former being completely stopped by Sableye.
The problem is after Magnezone comes in on a Play Rough, it will get picked off by a Sucker Punch, so it does not counter Mawile. In fact Mawile has little to no counters, as even Heatran fear a possible Focus Punch. If Tran was weakened before hand it could even be killed by Sucker (unless you're that guy that runs Wisp tran lol)
This, Mega Mawile can muscle past practically all it's checks and counters, making it nearly impossible to reliably beat due to the different sets it can run. On another note, the suspect ladder allows for really creative teams with Mawile gone, and things like Kyu-B are much better with it out of the picture. I feel like Mawile is a bit too overpowered and centralizing in the Meta and should probably be banned.
Ok so since the suspect is going to end, I would like to share what I think about Mawile. Its an extremely powerful pokèmon, which a stellar statistic of attack (considering Huge Power) that every mon dream to have, a solid defense statistics of 125 / 95 and although it has low HP points, its defenses still being it able to tank lot of hits, especially because it has an extremely non-mega trait in Intimidate which allows it to setup even easier. Its typing is also very good and has lot of useful resistances and the STAB fairy is rly strong since it hits lot of things neutrally and that just 3 resistances (and consider that poison-types are very very uncommon, and the only common fire-types are the Zards, but the X one takes neutrally damages from Play Rough because of its dragon-type) and it has lot of coverage moves as well like Iron Head, Fire Fang, Knock Off and Focus Punch that used with Substitute allows it to beat Heatran which is considerated its probably mentionted as its best counter/check. It has also a strong priority move in Sucker Punch (how some people can call it a weak priority, it OHKOs Garchomp that has a solid 108 and 95 defenses). Also the few mons that can counter it are rly unreliable in general, things like Weezing and Arcanine are bad mons that are used nowadays just to beat somewhat Mawile, from that we can see how centralizing it's. For all these reasons I think that it should get banned from the OU tier, it's rly 2 much strong for it and it's centralizing as fuck. Not that it's amazing pokèmon against all the playstyles (from HO to stall) and it needs 0 support to work well, unlikely things like Char-X or Pinsir that while are rly strong as well, they still need Defog support for example so they arent broken as Mawile is.
With most of the suspects that we have come to examine I've had some sort of mixed feeling about their status in the tier and whether removing them is a good idea. They have had some positive and negative factors that made the decision worth careful consideration. With Mega Mawile I do not have those feelings as it is one of the few suspects that we have looked at where I can safely say it needs to be sent to ubers. It is far too powerful for the tier and has no form of reliable switch in. A Mega Mawile with an unknown set is probably the greatest threat in the metagame right now and even after scouting and knowing its move set it remains an extremely dangerous force that can rip apart nearly any pokemon. Because of its ability to pack a move to beat any of its common switch ins it is very much uncounterable. While there are a few other pokemon that are like that and are healthy for the game Mega Mawile is different in that is is also extremely difficult to check. Its biggest flaw is its low speed, which may make it easy to revenge kill and check by offense. However it also has an extremely powerful sucker punch that can devastate most of the offensive threats that can revenge kill it. Its other main flaw that would normally open it up to revenge killing, its mediocre defenses, are also undermined. Its unique Steel/Fairy typing gives it a number of great resistances and immunities, while its base form having intimidate can also patch up its defense to an extent while also creating a number of good set up opportunities.
Overall there really isn't too much left to be said. Mega Mawile is ban worthy because its obscene power makes not only countering it nigh-impossible, but also checking it to be incredibly awkward and centralizing.
Overall there really isn't too much left to be said. Mega Mawile is ban worthy because its obscene power makes not only countering it nigh-impossible, but also checking it to be incredibly awkward and centralizing.
I have to fully disagree with this argument about versatility = broken, and I'll take another post shortly after this one regarding M-Luke into account also. Versatility is a part of poke'mon and one of the defininig traits of the game that make it interesting and keep it interesting. If strange sets became viable for about a half dozen to a dozen mons would they become broken? I mean powerful mons with under-used moves that are still viable coming into play for some reason(metagame changes, player choice, etc) would they suddenly become broken? Due to Smogon sets and other sites with suggestions, many sets have become staples and it's even rare to see truly innovative, strange sets that show the versatility of each mon. However, this isn't to say that most mons could be a bit more versatile than they show. Thundy has to be one of the most versatile OU mons, capable of pretty much anything, but that isn't what makes it a potential future suspect. It's it's unique speed tier mixed with power that could potentially put it over the top. In poke'mon, versatility is what makes the game for me personally, but it's also what keeps the game fresh and unique. It is an inherent part of the game, and to say versatility makes a mon broken is to say the game of poke'mon is inherently broken.
M-Luke had two great sets and if you "guessed wrong" it could cost you, but if you chose to flat out kill it off the bat then it wouldn't be too much trouble and that would remove it's aspect of versatility from the picture entirely. Once you see the set of a "versatile mon" it poses less of a threat unless it's too late, but it really was M-Luke's speed and attacking stats that sent it to ubers more than it's versatility. After it gained it's speed as a mega it was just too much for most people to handle. Jirachi could potentially use icy wind and energy ball to counter some things and no one would see it, but we see the flinch set so often the average player doesn't really consider these possibilities or think of how versatile it really is or how devastating it could be to guess wrong against a jirachi. In closing, versatility is simply a part of the game and trying to stall out or figure out every mon, in the end, is going to be tough no matter what given the nature of the game and how many moves each mon has despite how many go unused that are still viable. When it comes to these versatile mons you're better off killing them right away or keeping the pressure on to minimize their room for operation rather than consider them broken because you choose to take the more difficult route of figuring it out and then countering it.
M-Mawile can be killed and plenty of popular OU mons kll it quite well even despite the strong non-boosted sucker punches. When it comes to the sub-sets, don't a lot of OU mons cause destruction with a free sub? I'm not sure how unique M-Mawile is when it comes to versatility considering one set is it's bread and butter and the other is a sub set, which is a universal set many mons can pull off well and do tons of damage with.
tl;dr Versatility is part of the game and M-Maw really isn't that versatile with a bread&butter set and a universal set of using a sub to cause destruction.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
VS stall: A bit slow, but can deal good damage. VS offense, physical moves it's fine, but even with an sd if you compare it to mega pinsir, pinsir can sweep better but it does nice damage. However, is it broken? Nah. It can't sweep teams unless they are really week to sucker. If we ban it mega venusaur stall will be even better.
He never said that. He said that versatility CAN be broken on a pokémon (Aegislash, for example. None of its sets were broken, but it had so many amazing sets and free moveslots its versatility actually ended up being broken), not that it IS broken
From what I've read, versatility is not the broken characteristic on Mega Mawile, but more like the icing on the cake
That's the thing. Mawile isn't meant to sweep teams. Its main job is to force a switch and then hit something hard that switches in on it.
Just wanna point this out, I just tried and noticed that +4 MegaMaw 252+ Attack can only OHKO 31.3% of the time on 0h/0d terrakion after Stealth Rock, so that's a guaranteed check to the SD set, compounded by the fact that most people wouldn't be able to go to +4. Terrakion is way faster, so the SD set has to leave the field. I'm assuming this is a revenge kill of course.
Also, the argument that MegaMaw guarantees a kill or two when played right is absurd, because that applies to every viable offensive mega (played right is a key factor here), and I don't think banning all the megas is a good idea. However, that is aside from my point.
Finally, a SubPunch set works well with everything if it can get a substitute up. For example, take Breloom or Conkeldurr. The only thing MegaMaw has over them is resistance to the Sub-Bypassing Hyper Voice. However the point is that if you let them get a substitute in, any SubPuncher would be powerful.
Mega-Maw is versatile, sure. But what is Pokemon without versatility? If versatility was ban-worthy Smeargle would've been QuickBanned. Mega-Maw is slow, can only run 2 sets with few variations, and overall is powerful but not broken.
Therefore, I say No Ban.
Also, the argument that MegaMaw guarantees a kill or two when played right is absurd, because that applies to every viable offensive mega (played right is a key factor here), and I don't think banning all the megas is a good idea. However, that is aside from my point.
Finally, a SubPunch set works well with everything if it can get a substitute up. For example, take Breloom or Conkeldurr. The only thing MegaMaw has over them is resistance to the Sub-Bypassing Hyper Voice. However the point is that if you let them get a substitute in, any SubPuncher would be powerful.
Mega-Maw is versatile, sure. But what is Pokemon without versatility? If versatility was ban-worthy Smeargle would've been QuickBanned. Mega-Maw is slow, can only run 2 sets with few variations, and overall is powerful but not broken.
Therefore, I say No Ban.
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...No.
+2 252+ Atk Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 528-624 (163.4 - 193.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That's almost double Terrakion's health at only +2, and Play Rough is a staple on the SD set.
lol, what?
+4 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 1818-2138 (562.8 - 661.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
based on above I'm assuming you were talking about Sucker Punch right?
Either way the Pokemon you came up with only works if one of your Pokemon was KOed, so why is it so absurd that Mega Mawile garantees KOs? Not to mention nothing is stopping the Mega Mawile from switching out on the EQ to one of many ground immune mons and then coming back in later for another KO. Which you plan to stop by, what? switching in Terrakion? If you switch that into a Play Rough it dies at +0... so you have to lose another Pokemon just to force it out again with the Terrakion. If Terrakion is your best answer to M-Mawile then it can pretty much grantee more than 2 KOs on you.
Smeargle is not something you can compare to M-Mawile in any way. Like... at all. in fact Smeargel's stats means it has next to no versatility. I mean, sure, you could put any 4 moves you want on a set but its stats are so low that it will accomplish virtually nothing with any of its moves besides inflicting status (Spore) or setting up hazards. If you see a Smeargle in OU there should be no doubt in your mind it's Sashed and going to be the lead. If it isn't then you can laugh at whatever it's trying to do while you KO it. Versatility isn't even the reason for the ban. It's the shear lack of things you can do to handle Mega Mawile successfully, and then sprinkled on top of that is the fact that even though there might be 1 or 2 surefire ways to stop one of its sets it might be running the other set.
Everything in the game is dangerous from behind a Sub. but Mega Mawile forces more switches than everything, and the already very limited number of things that could try to switch into it and beat it becomes even more limited once it's behind a sub.
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Not guaranteed:
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 234-276 (85.4 - 100.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So 56.2% of the time (Barring a crit from either) Mega Mawile Sucker Punches twice (Or uses Play Rough) and goodbye Terrakion
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Uh just wanna point out that terrak no longer run eq as aegislash is out of the tier and was the only reason to use eq in the first place; close combat hits 180 after stab and nearly as strong as an SE eq (200) so even if you were still running it for some reason it would be pretty sub-par.
So with that in mind:
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 208-247 (75.9 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Remember this isn't even factoring in intimidate, so mega mawile is pretty safe to go for play rough and has no need to rely on sucker punch.
Not to mention that most terrakion are scarfed or lead, so they won't even be doing that much.
So with that in mind:
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 208-247 (75.9 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Remember this isn't even factoring in intimidate, so mega mawile is pretty safe to go for play rough and has no need to rely on sucker punch.
Not to mention that most terrakion are scarfed or lead, so they won't even be doing that much.
The way I see it, at this point the meta is dominated by 2 overpowered circles:
the mega wall fuckers: mawile, char x, char y, cross, cham, gard, pinsir. If I don't get at least 2 kills a game using one of these, I'll be pissed.
^seriously these things are all obscenely "broken" under gen4-5 pretense, without exception
the non-mega assholes of the tier: thundurus, landorus, keldeo, terrakion, azumarill, latios, (maybe gengar). Fast, powerful, and overly fast and powerful
^spammed on nearly every team, and are on their own tier of powerful. maybe not broken, but overpowered yes.
the entire meta can be defined by the struggle to live by these 2 circles of pokemon. You have the over-reliance on speedy pokemon to check these, including a super anti-meta use of mega dactyl, zam, and manectric (I've seen all of these used to good effect at 1800+), and the over-usage of choice scarf revengers in the tier (tyranitar, mamoswine, diggersby, heatran, magnezone) as well as greninja + talonflame. You have stall that beats teams that beat wall breaker teams, which beat stall teams. Diversity is increasing after post-aegi, but decreasing as well. Pokemon such as manaphy, hippowdon, chansey, etc are phasing into irrelevancy, as we reach a "super A/A+/S" tier that will represent 90% of OU.
Staying on topic... I think mawile is much less broken than other likes (Charizard, I'm looking at you), but still broken to the point of deserving a ban, much like staraptor of gen5 UU which was simply too strong. But then I wonder, in a post-aegi meta that is offense oriented, I don't think it's broken. We could, in theory, get used to a new offensive type meta that revolves around momentum, and sweeps. After all, stuff like gen4 stall was stupid as hell, and hazard wars were also stale. I'm a believer of pokemon to be a naturally offensive game, with stall being only a niche strategy.
Like basketball, it's about who scores faster. Not like soccer per se, which can be about keeping it 0-0 till one person breaks through at the end to make it 1-0 (Cringe analogy, but I hope you get the point). In a meta all about attacking and killing at the most efficient and strategic way (yes, there is strategy in this. HO vs HO is one of the toughest-on-the-brain match ups), I don't see mawile broken at all.
But if we want to go back to a meta like gen4/5, with reasonably balanced offense and defense, then you're being slow. You're going to have to ban like 5-8 pokemon (see above), which at this rate, will take 2-3 years. GL with that, especially with like 10 more new megas coming.
the mega wall fuckers: mawile, char x, char y, cross, cham, gard, pinsir. If I don't get at least 2 kills a game using one of these, I'll be pissed.
^seriously these things are all obscenely "broken" under gen4-5 pretense, without exception
the non-mega assholes of the tier: thundurus, landorus, keldeo, terrakion, azumarill, latios, (maybe gengar). Fast, powerful, and overly fast and powerful
^spammed on nearly every team, and are on their own tier of powerful. maybe not broken, but overpowered yes.
the entire meta can be defined by the struggle to live by these 2 circles of pokemon. You have the over-reliance on speedy pokemon to check these, including a super anti-meta use of mega dactyl, zam, and manectric (I've seen all of these used to good effect at 1800+), and the over-usage of choice scarf revengers in the tier (tyranitar, mamoswine, diggersby, heatran, magnezone) as well as greninja + talonflame. You have stall that beats teams that beat wall breaker teams, which beat stall teams. Diversity is increasing after post-aegi, but decreasing as well. Pokemon such as manaphy, hippowdon, chansey, etc are phasing into irrelevancy, as we reach a "super A/A+/S" tier that will represent 90% of OU.
Staying on topic... I think mawile is much less broken than other likes (Charizard, I'm looking at you), but still broken to the point of deserving a ban, much like staraptor of gen5 UU which was simply too strong. But then I wonder, in a post-aegi meta that is offense oriented, I don't think it's broken. We could, in theory, get used to a new offensive type meta that revolves around momentum, and sweeps. After all, stuff like gen4 stall was stupid as hell, and hazard wars were also stale. I'm a believer of pokemon to be a naturally offensive game, with stall being only a niche strategy.
Like basketball, it's about who scores faster. Not like soccer per se, which can be about keeping it 0-0 till one person breaks through at the end to make it 1-0 (Cringe analogy, but I hope you get the point). In a meta all about attacking and killing at the most efficient and strategic way (yes, there is strategy in this. HO vs HO is one of the toughest-on-the-brain match ups), I don't see mawile broken at all.
But if we want to go back to a meta like gen4/5, with reasonably balanced offense and defense, then you're being slow. You're going to have to ban like 5-8 pokemon (see above), which at this rate, will take 2-3 years. GL with that, especially with like 10 more new megas coming.
I don't think you would go for Sucker Punch twice. Wouldn't the first Sucker Punch activate Justified, causing Terrakion to OHKO Mega Mawile? Play Rough seems to be the best choice here. And to be technically correct, you have to factor in the 90% accuracy of Play Rough. So, it's pretty close to 50-50, but yeah Terrakion not a great check.
Just to point out, your calc uses regular Mawile.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 608-716 (188.2 - 221.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You have really good points, but I think that even compared to other megas, Mega Mawile has something that sets it apart. When you see Cross, Cham, Gard, and Pinsir, you pretty much know which sets you are facing and can plan checks and counters (to keep alive) ahead. Mega Mawile can run so many different sets effectively. While versatility in itself may not be broken, the prediction game (or guessing game) is heavily in favor of the Mega Mawile user. If you guess the right set, Mega Mawile may switch out. If you guess wrong, it may just sweep your entire team. Mega Mawile also doesn't need much support compared to other megas. Char, Pinsir really need hazard removers, etc. Mega Mawile, on the other hand, can tailor its set to what your team needs.
The way I see the whole meta game right now is that GameFreak really tried to eliminate defensive play this gen and I'm not happy with it. While stall wars are boring, certain aspects of strategic plays in more defensive teams are worth preserving in my opinion. The risk/reward decisions in defensive teams offer an alternative to "If I use move A and my opponent switches to X, I kill X, but if he doesn't switch and uses move B, I die" typically found in more offensive playstyle. A metagame that is centralized around offensive threats alone will be very match-up dependent and intensify the effects of luck based on rock paper scissors and coin flips. I think the community should ban all it needs to in order to achieve a fun, diverse metagame.
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I kinda agree and kinda disagree.
You're right that the metagame is defined by the new powerhouses this generation, but that's the way Gamefreak designed this generation and I personally enjoy it very much. I'm not a fan of stall-teams either so a more offensive meta is pretty fun imo.
That said, I am against banning all powerhouses to make stall more viable. I don't want to ban Pokemon because some people think certain playstyles should be more played and the meta should be less offensive. We should only ban Pokemon who are truly broken by themselves and not to balance out playstyles.
To the topic:
The difference between Mawile and the other Megas ist that all of them have a great flaw that prevents them from being too perfect.
CharizardX has no priority and a medicore bulk (DD-set) which makes it way easier to revenge-kill than Pokemon like Dragonite.
CharizardY is only really powerful under the sun, that means it turns to be on the field are limited, making Stealth Rock a pain.
Mega-Gardevoir ist not that fast and its physical bulk is pretty low. Easy to revenge-kill.
Mega-Medicham is frail and not really fast either. Its prioritys are very weak too.
Just to name these few megas, but I think you get the point. Mawile is different, because it has EVERYTHING:
- boosting move in form of SD
-good typing for alot of switch in opportunities
-great power even before boosting
-strong priority, which gives you more coverage (not like Aquajet from Azumarill which doesn't increase your coverage if you're using Waterfall too)
-great bulk even with 50/125/95 (it is more than it looks like)
-good movepool (elementary fangs, Knock Off, Focus-Punch)
-resistence to Stealth Rock
-not weak to priority
The only way this thing could be better is if it had Extreme Speed instead of Sucker Punch. The problem with Mega-Mawile is its ridiculous strength combined with its flawless design. If even one of her ability wouldn't exist than maybe nobody would complain (for example no priority or a typing with Stealth Rock weakness).
Last but not least:
Reading through all the arguments I have decided to stay pro-ban. The reasons are all said and Mawiles very small flaws are just overshadowed by its very great traits. It can support offensively, sweep by itself if necessary and decides who walls it. Long story short, ban it.
Alright, here's the problem.
The great bulk it has, although mediocre in some areas, is over all great. Its typing is damn good offensively and defensively. It has some hard raw power, and not too many things want to be face to face with such a menacing 'mon, especially when it resists most common priority barring one.
With this description. Who am I talking about? Is it clear I'm talking about mega wile? Or could i be talking about quite a few pokemon in the OU tier?
Because the answer is Keldeo.
Let's stop beating around the bush. The only reason this thing is up for this suspect is simply its power. Point blank. Stop trying to justify and just come out and say it hits too hard.
The great bulk it has, although mediocre in some areas, is over all great. Its typing is damn good offensively and defensively. It has some hard raw power, and not too many things want to be face to face with such a menacing 'mon, especially when it resists most common priority barring one.
With this description. Who am I talking about? Is it clear I'm talking about mega wile? Or could i be talking about quite a few pokemon in the OU tier?
Because the answer is Keldeo.
Let's stop beating around the bush. The only reason this thing is up for this suspect is simply its power. Point blank. Stop trying to justify and just come out and say it hits too hard.
I don't think it only hits too hard. If that would be the sole reason I wouldn't agree to ban it. Like you said, there are many Pokemon that deal alot of damage, banning them would be stupid.
The problem of Keldeo is that it has no priority, a bad offensive typing (Water/Fighting is not a good offensive typing in this metagame, Azumarill and Mega-Venusaur are everywhere) and has a really useless ability.
My reason for the ban is its overall good traits and the lack of flaws. Its low HP is backed up by high defenses, its low speed can be ignored thanks to Sucker Punch. Its raw power is not enough, a good typing is not enough either of course. But this and all the other traits IN ONE Pokemon make it a bit too good imo.
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First off, water/fighting is not bad, by any means whatsoever. There's a reason Keldeo is on so many teams. And I can promise you, it's not because of its badd offensive typing. But this isn't about keldeo, my point was that this has become an offensive meta, and will continue to be so even after ORAS is released as we can see by the new megas coming our way. I am not saying mawile isn't a problem. It is, much like thundy, and lando are. But it isn't some mindlessclick the win button Pokemon like (nearly) everyone makes it out to be. It requires much more than that. Yes, 50/125 is good when coupled with its typing, much like 91/95/100 when coupled with multi scale. The thing is, both rely on their ability to have such bulk. And there are times where intimidate makes no difference, there are special mon out there believe it or not.
The problem is, people make arguments here that can be said for pretty much any other mon. Which is why i made the statement i did. Yes, it scares things daring to come in on it. However, That can be said about damn near all Pokemon in the OU tier, it's just what OU has and will continue to become. Along with the "Well, Mawile can just switch out". Switch your Chansey in? Well, Landorus-I can just switch out.
Many Pokemon in the OU tier have more good traits than they do flaws, the entire S tier is a prime example of that. However, I don't see any of those Pokemon, aside from Zard (simply because it forces you to potentially sac something or let it set up to see what mega it is) as inherently broken. They ALL hit hard as shit, and they ALL have nice bulk, stupid attack power, and amazing typing. that's just the way the meta will be going from here on out.
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Then we seem to totally agree. It is a offensive meta, I like that and there is nothing wrong with that. Raw power should never be a reason to ban something. I used Mawile once and it is definitely not a win-button, it takes skill and a good team around it to make it effective. My main point is (and there you can freely disagree) that it is just WAY EASIER to make said teams. CharX cannot switch in and out that often because it doesn't like Stealth Rock. It can be revenge-killed reliably. Pinsir has only one effective set, 99% of the time you know what is coming at you. I can see flaws in every of these powerhouses which keeps them from being broken, but Mawile doesn't have them. That makes it not a win-button, but an easy Pokemon to use with little to no drawbacks. It can threaten its revenge-killers, has good switch-in opportunities and has a great spammable STAB. Every other offensive monster can only dream of all these traits, and this in one Pokemon is imo too much.
I hope everybody votes based on their objective opinion about Mawile and NOT for biased reasons like "stall could be more viable". I'm against banning non-broken Pokemon, and this hasn't changed here. The 50/50 arguments finally stopped, I hope the banning for the sake of other Pokemon/playstyles will stop too.
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