Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V3) (Rank changes are over until ORAS)

[Durant]

Scald can be switched for hydro if you really want the status,psyshock is nice as it gets stab but its only really used for venusaur as ice beam is enough to cover grass types, I don't think starmie needs recovery as its job is to get hazards off the field and hit hard with analytic boosted hydro pumps.

Isn't scizor the only thing hp fire hits that the other moves dont as
252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Mega Scizor: 264-312 (76.9 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
the bulky set cant switch in.

Hidden Power Fire hits Ferrothorn which otherwise walls Starmie. Outside of that and Scizor it doesn't hit that much though.

On a side note I really think Tyranitar should stay A. Like I know it is versatile and it provides OMG sand but in practice I never really found it that useful. Smooth Rock Tyranitar is pretty mediocre in my opinion as it isn't that strong and doesn't do anything besides set up rocks and sand from my experience. Choice sets are pretty good though and I have been trying some weirder sets like Expert Belt which aren't that good but they are still pretty cool.

 

[theV8man]

I dont agree with excadrill not being a sweeper, and you have limited your explanation to the 3 attacks + rapid spin, but a sd set can easely sweep, and blast through walls. It can sd on the switch into lando or rotom, and with just a bit of prior damage break through them. So while i agree with exca being a excelent revange killer, and ttar that dont need smooth rock to support it, i also belive that exca is a excelent sweeper, and 8 turns of sand support it a lot better tbh.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 222-263 (58.1 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So with about 30% prior damage on lando and with sr, it will become a very shakky check.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 170-201 (55.9 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
The same thing as for lando

further examples

and with every other bulky mon:
Hippodown: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 415-489 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Slowbro: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 324-382 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Skarmory: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 136-161 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (go for a +4)

Mandibuzz: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 367-434 (86.7 - 102.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Chansey: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 636-749 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

And finally gliscor: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 317-374 (90 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Couple this with a nice 30% flinch chance and you have good chance of deffeting those.

So excadrill can sweep on its own.

I'm sorry but when I think of Excadrill I don't think of a Pokemon that "can blast though walls." Some of the calcs you posted are a bit fishy. If you're trying to show how great Exca's power is, you're not gonna convince me with calcs against specially defensive Gliscors and Hippowdons. Getting past Skarmory is still a pain, as it will Counter/Whirlwind. Not to mention the ever common Lando-T and Rotom-W which still wreck it. And there is of course more niche options like Chesnaught. Overall, Sand Rush Exca is great for revenge killing and cleaning weakened teams, but walling it is quite easy, not to mention its weakness to priority seriously hampering extended sweeps.

 

[x MAD AXES x]

It's more useful for ferro n_n

I completely forgot about ferrothorn lol, but still running a move just to hit 1 pokemon isn't worth running imo

 

[WideTomato]

I'm sorry but when I think of Excadrill I don't think of a Pokemon that "can blast though walls." Some of the calcs you posted are a bit fishy. If you're trying to show how great Exca's power is, you're not gonna convince me with calcs against specially defensive Gliscors and Hippowdons. Getting past Skarmory is still a pain, as it will Counter/Whirlwind. Not to mention the ever common Lando-T and Rotom-W which still wreck it. And there is of course more niche options like Chesnaught. Overall, Sand Rush Exca is great for revenge killing and cleaning weakened teams, but walling it is quite easy, not to mention its weakness to priority seriously hampering extended sweeps.

I didnt try to put it as a wallbreaker, and blast through walls is maybe a little much, then lets say: get past some walls, ones they have taken some prior damage. And if played correctly it can get past skarmory. the reason i chose spdef gliscor and hippo, is because they are more common than their physical counterparts. I just tried to show that it is not checked just by adding a landorus, rotom or skarmory to your team, not that it could wreck them completely n_n

 

[Baharoth]

I dont agree with excadrill not being a sweeper, and you have limited your explanation to the 3 attacks + rapid spin, but a sd set can easely sweep, and blast through walls. It can sd on the switch into lando or rotom, and with just a bit of prior damage break through them. So while i agree with exca being a excelent revange killer, and ttar that dont need smooth rock to support it, i also belive that exca is a excelent sweeper, and 8 turns of sand support it a lot better tbh.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 222-263 (58.1 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So with about 30% prior damage on lando and with sr, it will become a very shakky check.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 170-201 (55.9 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
The same thing as for lando

further examples

and with every other bulky mon:
Hippodown: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 415-489 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Slowbro: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 324-382 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Skarmory: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 136-161 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (go for a +4)

Mandibuzz: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 367-434 (86.7 - 102.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Chansey: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 636-749 (90.3 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

And finally gliscor: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 317-374 (90 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Couple this with a nice 30% flinch chance and you have good chance of deffeting those.

So excadrill can sweep on its own.

Your calcs pretty much prove his point. I mean lets be real here, even if Exca manages to come in unharmed with a decent amount of sand turns left AND manages to SD on a target that switches out (thats quite a thing considering that basicly every mon in the meta can hit him for SE damage or do 50%+ with neutral attacks) he is still stopped cold by anything with decent physical defense. Flinch hax aside you wont get a sweep of with Lando-T or Rotom-W still alive, not to mention things like Gliscor, Hippo (nobody uses full spD hippo nowadays), Skarm or Quagsire. And even if there is nothing physical defensive on the opponents team, Excadrill can still be stopped fairly easily with priority Mach Punch Breloom, Aquajet from Azumarill, Bravebird from Talonflame and Suckerpunch from Bisharp, they all do ~50% and more. Not to mention the opponents ability to play around Exca with smart switches, stalling out sand turns or if lando-T is involved simply negating his atk boosts with Intimidate.

Getting a sweep with Exca in the current meta is next to impossible, there will be 2 or more things on most teams that prevent you from doing it. Sure you might be able to pull it of here and there but not often enough to warrent SD usage over rapid spin. Because of that it makes more sense to use spin and use Exca for what he is best at, revenging.

 

[WideTomato]

Your calcs pretty much prove his point. I mean lets be real here, even if Exca manages to come in unharmed with a decent amount of sand turns left AND manages to SD on a target that switches out (thats quite a thing considering that basicly every mon in the meta can hit him for SE damage or do 50%+ with neutral attacks) he is still stopped cold by anything with decent physical defense. Flinch hax aside you wont get a sweep of with Lando-T or Rotom-W still alive, not to mention things like Gliscor, Hippo (nobody uses full spD hippo nowadays), Skarm or Quagsire. And even if there is nothing physical defensive on the opponents team, Excadrill can still be stopped fairly easily with priority Mach Punch Breloom, Aquajet from Azumarill, Bravebird from Talonflame and Suckerpunch from Bisharp, they all do ~50% and more. Not to mention the opponents ability to play around Exca with smart switches, stalling out sand turns or if lando-T is involved simply negating his atk boosts with Intimidate.

Getting a sweep with Exca in the current meta is next to impossible, there will be 2 or more things on most teams that prevent you from doing it. Sure you might be able to pull it of here and there but not often enough to warrent SD usage over rapid spin. Because of that it makes more sense to use spin and use Exca for what he is best at, revenging.

Even if lando checks it, lets say this scenario: you lead with chomp, he lead with lando, you exchange rocks, you dragon claw, he uturns (...) tyranitar on your side dies to lets say greninja, you send in exca, predict lando to come in sd and after dragon claw, rough skin and sr, you can KO him. im not trying to say that you can then also beat a skarmory and a rotom, only that you will be able to get past one of them, ones again WITH PRIOR DAMAGE! and i did not say that it could 6-0 teams or anything, just that it is a good sweeper (who even mentioned breloom, lol)

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 308-363 (73.3 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - the same goes here, after lets say a crunch from ttar at some point.

 

[Baharoth]

Everything can sweep with enough prior damage on all his checks. I am not saying its absolutely impossible, but its unrealistic to a point where it will hardly ever happen. Getting 40% prior damage on one check might be possible somehow but there are so many checks to Exca around that you will usually see 2 or even 3 of them on your opponents team and wearing them all down to the point where you can sweep is very very difficult. If your looking for a sweeper there are better things in the A+ ranks that dont need that many conditions met to do their job.

 

[Jayd]

Want to mention here that Mega Alakazam is probably the best user of Future Sight in the metagame. Put it over one of your coverage moves, and use it when you force a switch (not hard for zam), What your opponent switches in probably won't be afraid of it, but then you switch in your counter and now he has to make a switch that can take on both the mon that you just switched in and a STAB 120 base power attack off max 175 SAtk. It's a hell of a lot of a pressure on the opponent's team, especially at multiple times during a match.

Illustration in case that was a confusing sentence up there:

Mega Alakazam comes in on Keldeo.
Keldeo switches out in fear of its life. Chansey comes in as Megazam uses Future Sight.
Conkeldurr switches in on Chansey.
Either Azumarill switches in and takes a Knock Off and then Future Sight or Chansey stays in and takes a Knock Off and a Future Sight.

And just like that a team that should have had a solid counter for both of your mons no longer does. Boom bang, Future Sight is awesome. It also doesn't suffer from low BP like was mentioned before. Megazam has almost as many niches as he's got spoons, promote that man.

P.S. I'd like to bring it to someone's attention that the Showdown damage calculator doesn't have Future Sight. Not sure if there's a reason for that or if it's an oversight but I don't know who to PM about this or where to find out so I'll just tag alexwolf as he's in charge of this thread and hope the message gets passed on.

 

[WideTomato]

Everything can sweep with enough prior damage on all his checks. I am not saying its absolutely impossible, but its unrealistic to a point where it will hardly ever happen. Getting 40% prior damage on one check might be possible somehow but there are so many checks to Exca around that you will usually see 2 or even 3 of them on your opponents team and wearing them all down to the point where you can sweep is very very difficult. If your looking for a sweeper there are better things in the A+ ranks that dont need that many conditions met to do their job.

Everything have it's counters obviously, and exca is a really good sweeper, though it do have a lot of counters, I don't agree with you about a lot of better sweepers in the A+ Excadrill is also unique in the fact that it outspeeds the entire unboosted and even scarfed meta. I am also not saying that it can get past all pokemon on the opposing team, rather that it can get a kill or two. Also getting 30% on pokemkn is not hard whit stealth rocks. Again I'm not saying that excadrill can get a easy sweep just because of a sd, rather that it is an excellent pokemon, that does a great job weakening teams.

 

[Jaroda]

Why exactly is Mega Gyarados suggested to drop again? It is a prime A+ candidate. It is one of the absolute best DDers in the tier and its only relevant competition (Char X and Mega Tyranitar) are both ranked equally or higher as is. Mega Gyara's advantage over the other's is the ability to go mono-STAB, Mold Breaker, Taunt and typing. Thanks to Mold Breaker Gyarados is often capable of crapping over many teams only answer to DDers which is Unaware pokemon. Do not underestimate a set of Waterfall/Taunt/DDance/Substitute as the combination makes it insanely easy to prevent stall from screwing him with status or offense KOing him through the sub. And even then Gyara's defenses (coupled with Intimidate) are so great it's really hard to revenge this guy with priority, especially when he resists Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, Sucker Punch(!) and doesn't mind Flying priority too much. Not to mention Mach Punch is really rare. But it also has access to Mold Breaker Ice Fang to quickly handle Dragonite, Landorus and Mega Venusaur as an option, as well as MB Earthquake for Rotom-W. It also really doesn't need much support. While SR weak initially, it sure handles it better than Charizard does, and Gyarados is bulky enough to benefit from a Healing Wish/Wish and try again later. It is not outclassed as a DDer, it offers several unique benefits for choosing it and is a mon I have personally found to pull it's weight at a very consistent rate.

Mega Gyarados stays A+

 

[AM]

Why exactly is Mega Gyarados suggested to drop again? It is a prime A+ candidate.

It was suggested because the reality of the situation is that things like M-Cham, M-Garde, and others are rising in prominence which are somewhat threatening to M-Gyarados, which makes sense that alexwolf wanted to discuss it. It doesn't change the fact that it's a serious threat worthy of A+.

 

[Karxrida]

Quick question: what the fuck does Celebi deal with? No, seriously, it loses to so much it's not funny.

Dealing with Waters? Um, Crocune still beats you and you can't touch AV Azumarill. You can counter Keldeo, but better Keldeo answers exist like Amoonguss and Azumarill. Rotom-W will burn you as you switch in or just Volt Switch out. Slowbro and Alomomola are bulky enough to not care, have Regenerator so they care less, and Slowbro can hit you back with Flamethrower.

Dealing with Electrics? Your ability to check Thundurus is entirely dependent on what spread you are running and Thundy's set, Mega Manectric runs Flamethrower, and Raikou runs HP Ice with Specs or CM sometimes.

Checking Lando-I? CBBnite and Gliscor can already do that while not getting shit on by Flyspam and giving out loads of free switches, and they can deal with random Knock Offs, U-turns, and CM.

Ground resist? The most popular Ground-types run secondary STAB and/or coverage that can hit you hard. You give Lando-T a free switch so he can kill/cripple you with U-turn, get up rocks, or Knock Off something. Garchomp runs Fire Blast sometimes and Outrage does a load. Excadrill has Iron Head and you're just boned if Sand's up. Mamoswine has Ice STAB. Lando-I (which are supposed to be checking in the first place) can fucking switch into you.

Running Mono-Grass for offense gives tons of free switches in general and you can't threaten much with it.

If anything, Celebi should move down because it doesn't deal with anything significant outside of Keldeo (which you can still lose to!) and... that's pretty much it. You lose to the rest of S and a shit ton of A ranks.

 

[Red Cat]

I agree with most of alexwolf's proposed rank changes, so I'll just discuss the ones I disagree with.

Keep Mega Charizard X in S rank: Mega Charizard X is still one of the best sweepers in OU. Only Azumarill and Heatran resist its STABs and Zard X can run EQ to get rid of Heatran if you really want it dead. It still has a variety of sets it can run from its offensive DD to bulky DD to its defensive set, so Mega Charizard X can fit on all kinds of teams. There is also the Swords Dance set to demolish stall teams without Quagsire. Also, Zard X is superior to its other mega evolution which is A+ rank, so unless Zard Y drops, Mega Charizard X should stay in S.

Keep Raikou in B rank: It still faces too much competition from Thundurus which is more powerful, has Prankster Thunder Wave, is immune to Ground type attacks, and can boost its special attack faster with Nasty Plot. Raikou has Calm Mind going for it, but it is still revenge killed by Scarf Garchomp, Scarf Lando-T and Scarf / Sand Excadrill and is walled by Chansey and Unaware Quagsire / Clefable.

Keep Mega Manectric in B rank: If facing competition for the mega slot is a reason to potentially drop Mega Venusaur, then it should definitely be a reason not to raise Mega Manectric any further. There are at least 10 better options for your mega slot. Mega Manectric is weak and is frail even with Intimidate. Stall teams can wall Mega Man without any effort. Mega Manectric can grab some momentum with Intimidate and Volt Switch, but it doesn't do much besides that.

Keep Mega Aerodactyl in B rank: Same as above; there is a lot of competition for the mega slot, even on stall teams which have to give up Zard X, Mega Venusaur, and Mega Scizor to use it. Mega Aerodactyl can check a lot of dangerous threats, but it can't counter much. Its offensive presence is a bit lacking. If it runs Aerial Ace and Aqua Tail as its attacks, Gyarados, Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, Rotom-W can basically switch in for free. Mega Aerodactyl isn't a great stallbreaker with Taunt because it doesn't get Knock Off or Wisp which means bulky Waters like Slowbro, Mola, and Suicune can come in and start spamming Scald on it.

Keep Mega Gardevoir in A rank: I don't think it is as good as Mega Heracross which can do its job more consistently against offensive and defensive teams due to having more raw power, better coverage, and better overall bulk and defensive typing (and Mega Heracross doesn't have to rely on Focus Miss).

 

[Celticpride]

Scizor: B+ ---> B: Support this. Scizor has lost his edge. He seems badly outclassed by his Mega and everything seems to have Fire coverage to deal with Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor. He's still ok, and the Band set can be effective, but he honestly belongs more in the B/B- range. He fits more with Rhyperior, Sableye and Weavile then Quagsire and Torn-T. CB Bullet Punch is strong priority, but there are better sources out there, most of them with better typing. Azu Aqua Jet, Talonflame BB and Mamo Ice Shard are more viable mons with priority, and none of them run restrictive Choice items.

 

[Zebstrika]

Quick question: what the fuck does Celebi deal with? No, seriously, it loses to so much it's not funny.

Dealing with Waters? Um, Crocune still beats you and you can't touch AV Azumarill. You can counter Keldeo, but better Keldeo answers exist like Amoonguss and Azumarill. Rotom-W will burn you as you switch in or just Volt Switch out. Slowbro and Alomomola are bulky enough to not care, have Regenerator so they care less, and Slowbro can hit you back with Flamethrower.

Suicune loses to Perish Song if it's that big of a deal. It's not like other grass types beat Crocune effortlessly either. M-Venusaur can straight up lose, Amoonguss needs Clear Smog, Ferrothorn and Chesnaught don't always run grass stabs and they and Breloom all risk Scald burns.

Giga Drain does enough to AV Azumarill, considering Celebi has recovery and Azumarill doesn't, Celebi will win.

How are Amoonguss and Azumarill better keldeo answers? They don't like Scald burns. Amoonguss is as good of an answer but Azumarill is far worse.

Why should I give a shit if Rotom-W burns Celebi? Natural Cure. And Rotom-W Volt Switches on like all of its counters except Lanturn.

Alomomola gets set up on by any Nasty Plot / Sub set (baton pass sets) and can't do anything back because Celebi just heals off Toxic and Scald burns. Also Giga Drain 2hkos physically defensive and is basically a free Recover at the same time because Alo's HP is so big.

Celebi beats slowbro because Giga Drain 2hkos Slowbro and it can't 2hko back even if it's running super effective.
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 194-230 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 64.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Slowbro Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 130-154 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Quick question: what the fuck does Celebi deal with? No, seriously, it loses to so much it's not funny.

Dealing with Waters? Um, Crocune still beats you and you can't touch AV Azumarill. You can counter Keldeo, but better Keldeo answers exist like Amoonguss and Azumarill. Rotom-W will burn you as you switch in or just Volt Switch out.

Crocune loses to Perish Song. Amoonguss and Azumarill hate getting burned by Keldeo's Scald while Celebi has Natural Cure and takes everything Keldeo can throw at it, it's by far a better Keldeo answer. You hard counter Rotom-W, even W-o-W is irrelevant because of Natural Cure. Only AV Azumarill is really problematic for Celebi.

Dealing with Electrics? Your ability to check Thundurus is entirely dependent on what spread you are running and Thundy's set, Mega Manectric runs Flamethrower, and Raikou runs HP Ice with Specs or CM sometimes.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 120-143 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- 18.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 146-174 (36.1 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 130-154 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO

Pretty much a hard stop to special Thundurus barring Nasty Plot HP Flying as well as Mega Manectric and Raikou.

Checking Lando-I? CBBnite and Gliscor can already do that while not getting shit on by Flyspam and giving out loads of free switches, and they can deal with random Knock Offs, U-turns, and CM.

What if you don't want to use those pokes to check Landorus? If Celebi can do it (albeit not doing the best job due to U-turn, Sludge Wave and Knock Off) that's a bonus for Celebi.

Ground resist? The most popular Ground-types run secondary STAB and/or coverage that can hit you hard. You also give Lando-T a free switch so he can kill/cripple you with U-turn, get up rocks, or Knock Off something. Garchomp runs Fire Blast sometimes and Outrage does a load. Excadrill has Iron Head and you're just boned if Sand's up. Mamoswine has Ice STAB.

Fair enough (although Celebi beats the almighty Quagsire).

If anything, Celebi should move down because it doesn't deal with anything significant outside of Keldeo (which you can still lose to!) and... that's pretty much it.

How is Celebi ever losing to Keldeo? .-. Nobody runs HP Bug anymore and CM sets don't even stand a chance... Also Celebi does more than just countering Keldeo, it also deals with stuff like Amoonguss (yes even with STAB Sludge Bomb to show how bulky it is), Breloom, Gyarados, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham, Lati@s, Thundurus/Landorus (some sets), Suicune, Raikou, Mega Manectric etc. It also gets cool support moves like SR, U-turn and T-Wave and it absorbs status moves.

 

[Red Cat]

How is Celebi ever losing to Keldeo? .-. Nobody runs HP Bug anymore and CM sets don't even stand a chance... Also Celebi does more than just countering Keldeo, it also deals with stuff like Amoonguss (yes even with STAB Sludge Bomb to show how bulky it is), Breloom, Gyarados, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham, Lati@s, Thundurus/Landorus (some sets), Suicune, Raikou, Mega Manectric etc. It also gets cool support moves like SR, U-turn and T-Wave and it absorbs status moves.

I don't really care whether Celebi moves up or not, but Celebi needs Psychic / Psyshock to do anything to Amoonguss, Gyarados can just set up DD on Celebi before it mega evolves and kill it with Ice Fang, and Mega Medicham just flat out 2HKOs with HJK and Ice Punch. Like you said, it only counters some Thundy and Lando sets (and Lando usually carries at least one of Knock Off, Sludge Wave, or U-turn making Celebi a very shaky answer to Lando). So while Celebi deals with a few key threats, it doesn't stop a ton of threats. Celebi's main strength is its versatility, but it faces a lot of competition from Mew in that department.

 

[Srn]

Everything have it's counters obviously, and exca is a really good sweeper, though it do have a lot of counters, I don't agree with you about a lot of better sweepers in the A+ Excadrill is also unique in the fact that it outspeeds the entire unboosted and even scarfed meta. I am also not saying that it can get past all pokemon on the opposing team, rather that it can get a kill or two. Also getting 30% on pokemkn is not hard whit stealth rocks. Again I'm not saying that excadrill can get a easy sweep just because of a sd, rather that it is an excellent pokemon, that does a great job weakening teams.

The argument here isn't that everything has its counters and everything sweeps when said counters are worn down, nobody is really arguing that. But how often is both lando-t /rotom-w/billions of other checks going to be weakened, sand going to be up, priority users going to be gone, and a free turn for excadrill to SD up going to come by against a skilled player? Definitely not often enough to warrant serious use.

 

[Karxrida]

Suicune loses to Perish Song if it's that big of a deal. It's not like other grass types beat Crocune effortlessly either. M-Venusaur can straight up lose, Amoonguss needs Clear Smog, Ferrothorn and Chesnaught don't always run grass stabs and they and Breloom all risk Scald burns.

Giga Drain does enough to AV Azumarill, considering Celebi has recovery and Azumarill doesn't, Celebi will win.

How are Amoonguss and Azumarill better keldeo answers? They don't like Scald burns. Amoonguss is as good of an answer but Azumarill is far worse.

Why should I give a shit if Rotom-W burns Celebi? Natural Cure. And Rotom-W Volt Switches on like all of its counters except Lanturn.

Alomomola gets set up on by any Nasty Plot / Sub set (baton pass sets) and can't do anything back because Celebi just heals off Toxic and Scald burns. Also Giga Drain 2hkos physically defensive and is basically a free Recover at the same time because Alo's HP is so big.

Celebi beats slowbro because Giga Drain 2hkos Slowbro and it can't 2hko back even if it's running super effective.
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 194-230 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 64.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Slowbro Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 130-154 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Celebi doesn't have room for Perish Song (you want to have Baton Pass, Recover, Thunder Wave, and damage move), and that's literally one thing you'd use it for.

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 102-120 (29.5 - 34.7%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO

You take over 60% from Knock Off, lose your Lefties, and are forced to use Recover as Azumarill switches out to whatever Grass resist your opponent has. Or a T-Tar.

Amoonguss has Regenerator and can take an HP Flying. Azumarill is a check since it resists everything and last time I checked Scald is considered hax for the definition of a check/counter so it technically is a counter anyway.

You give a shit because it negates Lefties and are forced to switch out.

Never said Alomomola won, I just said it didn't care.

Slowbro can hit you and switch out because Regenerator is awesome.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 120-143 (29.7 - 35.3%) -- 18.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 146-174 (36.1 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 130-154 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO

Pretty much a hard stop to special Thundurus barring Nasty Plot HP Flying as well as Mega Manectric and Raikou.

How is Celebi ever losing to Keldeo? .-. Nobody runs HP Bug anymore and CM sets don't even stand a chance... Also Celebi does more than just countering Keldeo, it also deals with stuff like Amoonguss (yes even with STAB Sludge Bomb to show how bulky it is), Breloom, Gyarados, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham, Lati@s, Thundurus/Landorus (some sets), Suicune, Raikou, Mega Manectric etc. It also gets cool support moves like SR, U-turn and T-Wave and it absorbs status moves.

Thundy has mixed sets which beat you, hence why I mentioned you can only check depending on what it's running. You're nowhere near a hard check.

Mega Manectric and Raikou can just Volt Switch out, or in Raikou's case set up on you with CM.

If Celebi is physically defensive for some reason it is 2HKO'd by HP Flying (I only bring this up because someone in the last thread bought up how physically defensive could check Azumarill and Phyiscal/Mixed Thundy better). A bit of prior damage and SR means it can still lose if Specially Defensive.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 142-168 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[WideTomato]

The argument here isn't that everything has its counters and everything sweeps when said counters are worn down, nobody is really arguing that. But how often is both lando-t /rotom-w/billions of other checks going to be weakened, sand going to be up, priority users going to be gone, and a free turn for excadrill to SD up going to come by against a skilled player? Definitely not often enough to warrant serious use.

Billions of other checks? Priority users, talonflame can to a chunk, true but breloom is often used as a lead, and if not exca can't sweep. Both rotom and lando is often used as offensive pivots, meaning chip damage is easy to get, especially when pare with TTar, where they will often come in and take a bit from crunch or stone edge, leaving them in range for exca to kill ones they come into rocks again.

I feel like your assuming that every team has all of lando, rotom, quagsire, breloom and talonflame e_e when they honestly never really have more than one or two.

 

[Zebstrika]

Celebi doesn't have room for Perish Song (you want to have Baton Pass, Recover, Thunder Wave, and damage move), and that's literally one thing you'd use it for.

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 102-120 (29.5 - 34.7%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO

You take over 60% from Knock Off, lose your Lefties, and are forced to use Recover as Azumarill switches out to whatever Grass resist your opponent has. Or a T-Tar.

Amoonguss has Regenerator and can take an HP Flying. Azumarill is a check since it resists everything and last time I checked Scald is considered hax for the definition of a check/counter so it technically is a counter anyway.

You give a shit because it negates Lefties and are forced to switch out.

Never said Alomomola won, I just said it didn't care.

Slowbro can hit you and switch out because Regenerator is awesome.

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Perish Song
- Giga Drain
- Heal Bell
- Recover

The set I use and it beats every water type you mentioned, all while giving Heal Bell support (which was the dealbreaker for me, why I used Celebi over other grass types). If you run a more offensive team you could probably use Thunder Wave over Heal Bell since that type of support benefits offense more. I skipped Baton Pass because Celebi is physically defensive, so it can actually take on some Pursuit Tyranitar.

Physically defensive is also why I can take on Azumarill. Recover off the first boosted Knock Off, and after that it does 38% max.

Amoonguss takes a tiny bit more from HP Flying regardless of EV spread so that's kind of irrelevant?

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 146-172 (36.1 - 42.5%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%)

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 162-192 (37.5 - 44.4%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Amoonguss: 234-276 (54.1 - 63.8%)

Meanwhile "hax" in the definition of checks and counters is about the hax you can't really do anything about. Almost no Weavile counter can do anything about Ice Punch's freeze, so we disregard it. But you can do something about Keldeo's Scald by running a counter that doesn't mind burn. So Azumarill is an ass Keldeo counter 30% of the Scalds where Celebi / Amoonguss is not, you can't deny that. Also, it's technically "hax" to not get burned if Azumarill switches into Scald twice (only 49% to avoid burn both times), and it has no recovery to switch in all day anyways, forcing Azumarill to paired with a second good answer to Keldeo.

About Rotom-W, I really don't give a shit about lefties being negated for like two turns. If that damage meant anything, Rotom-W would be better off just staying in and Hydro Pumping because that does more than 13% per turn. And I'm not "forced" to switch out of the burn, I simply have the option. Like if Amoonguss, another good Rotom-W counter, gets burned by it, it's burned whether it stays in or switches out. But Celebi has the opportunity to get rid of its burn by switching and now it's "forced" to like that's a bad thing?

Not like Celebi was walling whole teams, it was gonna switch out anyways, and it's one of the few defensive Rotom-W counters that can double switch it because Rotom-W risks eating a Giga Drain if it Volt Switches.

Also if you don't care about Celebi recovering on your Alomomola, setting up on it, and/or taking away half it's health, good for you. Most people care about that.

Slowbro hits Celebi and switches out, meanwhile, Celebi recovers all that damage on the switch out turn, assuming it even predicted the Celebi switch in. It's not getting anywhere.

 

[Clone]

Mega Garchomp should stay at B+ (Or even go to A-, like I've been pushing for for months).

Why? Because he's the best mixed wallbreaker in the tier. Same attacking stats as Kyubes, and a much better movepool. He's got ground STAB and Fire Blast and Stone edge for coverage. Draco just nukes shit not named chansey. He decimates stall that doesn't Carry SpDef Gliscor or cress, and with sand support, can completely dismantle it. Speaking of sand support, it's not useless outside of it like most people make it out to be. It just makes him a fuckton more powerful than he already is. And speaking of sand, sand offense is everywhere right now, and Megachomp can take advantage of opposing sand.

And people say he's useless against offense. No. He's as useless as Medi or Hera against offense (ie not very). 108/115/95 bulk makes him no pushover. It's better than heras ffs (special I'd debatable tho cuz of naive/rash nature on chomp). He's also got a better defensive typing, as well as more speed. He even resists rocks. A 4x weakness to ice sux, but so does heras 4x weakness to flying (Birdspam says hi). In fact, non LO Jolly Mamo can't even OHKO With ice shard. I'm not buying the argument of offense reeks him, because it really doesn't. If it does, then the three wallbreaker megas who are god now are weak against offense too. Garde cuz every non 4x resisted physical attack does a fuckton (LO Latios 2HKOes w/ Psyshock unless Garde uses 24 def EVs). Her special bulk is nice tho. But a base 68 HP is pathetic. Medis bulk is just shit period. Hera has good bulk, but is slow. Garchomp has good bulk and is somewhat slow, but not very. This argument really doesn't seem that informed in all honesty. Garchomp is on par with the other wallbreaker megas against offense (bulk/speed is similar, and no safe switch ins).

I don't see a reason to drop him. Mawile is now gone, Aegislash is now gone, and nothing else changed. And Garchomp beat both unlike the other three. He has competition for the mega slot, but so do the others. And he's worth it 99% of the time. So keep him in B+, or rise him to A- the hate he gets isn't warranted, and imo he's on par with the other breakers.

 

[effyouzion]

Mega Garchomp should stay at B+ (Or even go to A-, like I've been pushing for for months).

Why? Because he's the best mixed wallbreaker in the tier. Same attacking stats as Kyubes, and a much better movepool. He's got ground STAB and Fire Blast and Stone edge for coverage. Draco just nukes shit not named chansey. He decimates stall that doesn't Carry SpDef Gliscor or cress, and with sand support, can completely dismantle it. Speaking of sand support, it's not useless outside of it like most people make it out to be. It just makes him a fuckton more powerful than he already is. And speaking of sand, sand offense is everywhere right now, and Megachomp can take advantage of opposing sand.

And people say he's useless against offense. No. He's as useless as Medi or Hera against offense (ie not very). 108/115/95 bulk makes him no pushover. It's better than heras ffs (special I'd debatable tho cuz of naive/rash nature on chomp). He's also got a better defensive typing, as well as more speed. He even resists rocks. A 4x weakness to ice sux, but so does heras 4x weakness to flying (Birdspam says hi). In fact, non LO Jolly Mamo can't even OHKO With ice shard. I'm not buying the argument of offense reeks him, because it really doesn't. If it does, then the three wallbreaker megas who are god now are weak against offense too. Garde cuz every non 4x resisted physical attack does a fuckton (LO Latios 2HKOes w/ Psyshock unless Garde uses 24 def EVs). Her special bulk is nice tho. But a base 68 HP is pathetic. Medis bulk is just shit period. Hera has good bulk, but is slow. Garchomp has good bulk and is somewhat slow, but not very. This argument really doesn't seem that informed in all honesty. Garchomp is on par with the other wallbreaker megas against offense (bulk/speed is similar, and no safe switch ins).

I don't see a reason to drop him. Mawile is now gone, Aegislash is now gone, and nothing else changed. And Garchomp beat both unlike the other three. He has competition for the mega slot, but so do the others. And he's worth it 99% of the time. So keep him in B+, or rise him to A- the hate he gets isn't warranted, and imo he's on par with the other breakers.

The problem with mega Garchomp is that he's a mixed attacker who doesn't have the stats to make use of both:

4+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 250-295 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

He needs sand to 2hko Chansey. That means, without sand, he does the exact same thing as mixed KyuB... except takes a mega slot and doesn't have leftovers.

I've used mega Garchomp and he's always been extremely underwhelming. If you're going to give sand support to something, use Excadrill. And if you need a mixed wall breaker, use KyuB -- or hell, even regular Garchomp with a life orb and swords dance + fire blast.

 

[Jayd]

Mega Garchomp should stay at B+ (Or even go to A-, like I've been pushing for for months).

Why? Because he's the best mixed wallbreaker in the tier. Same attacking stats as Kyubes, and a much better movepool. He's got ground STAB and Fire Blast and Stone edge for coverage. Draco just nukes shit not named chansey. He decimates stall that doesn't Carry SpDef Gliscor or cress, and with sand support, can completely dismantle it. Speaking of sand support, it's not useless outside of it like most people make it out to be. It just makes him a fuckton more powerful than he already is. And speaking of sand, sand offense is everywhere right now, and Megachomp can take advantage of opposing sand.

And people say he's useless against offense. No. He's as useless as Medi or Hera against offense (ie not very). 108/115/95 bulk makes him no pushover. It's better than heras ffs (special I'd debatable tho cuz of naive/rash nature on chomp). He's also got a better defensive typing, as well as more speed. He even resists rocks. A 4x weakness to ice sux, but so does heras 4x weakness to flying (Birdspam says hi). In fact, non LO Jolly Mamo can't even OHKO With ice shard. I'm not buying the argument of offense reeks him, because it really doesn't. If it does, then the three wallbreaker megas who are god now are weak against offense too. Garde cuz every non 4x resisted physical attack does a fuckton (LO Latios 2HKOes w/ Psyshock unless Garde uses 24 def EVs). Her special bulk is nice tho. But a base 68 HP is pathetic. Medis bulk is just shit period. Hera has good bulk, but is slow. Garchomp has good bulk and is somewhat slow, but not very. This argument really doesn't seem that informed in all honesty. Garchomp is on par with the other wallbreaker megas against offense (bulk/speed is similar, and no safe switch ins).

I don't see a reason to drop him. Mawile is now gone, Aegislash is now gone, and nothing else changed. And Garchomp beat both unlike the other three. He has competition for the mega slot, but so do the others. And he's worth it 99% of the time. So keep him in B+, or rise him to A- the hate he gets isn't warranted, and imo he's on par with the other breakers.

There is truth here, people forget that Mega Garchomp is bulkier than Mandibuzz and try to use it like a sweeper. It already naturally outspeeds most walls it's supposed to break so you can invest in bulk and tank and kill lots of stuff in offence (if played right it should force stuff out first and get big nasty dents. And its use against balance and stall isn't in question. It shouldn't drop.

 

[Clone]

The problem with mega Garchomp is that he's a mixed attacker who doesn't have the stats to make use of both:

4+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 250-295 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

He needs sand to 2hko Chansey. That means, without sand, he does the exact same thing as mixed KyuB... except takes a mega slot and doesn't have leftovers.

4+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 250-295 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 250-295 (35.5 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

she cant switch in if shes taken any prior damage. she needs to have over 90% of her health left to switch in with the 252 HP spread (96% to be exact). otherwise, even min damage both times will kill after rocks. not hard to do if shes constantly being pressured by special attacks throughout the match.

56 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 189-223 (26.8 - 31.6%) -- 55.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

meanwhile chansey can wall kyubes to death much easier. and thats if hes running dragon claw (mixed LO usually doesnt cuz roost is more important and bolt beam cuz of fusion bolt, (which still 4HKOes)

I've used mega Garchomp and he's always been extremely underwhelming. If you're going to give sand support to something, use Excadrill. And if you need a mixed wall breaker, use KyuB -- or hell, even regular Garchomp with a life orb and swords dance + fire blast.

great. im not sure how mixed LO SD regular garchomp is even viable lol. Blast is a 2HKO at best, and SD would much rather have SE instead, or even sub. also LO chomp isnt even that great to begin with. hed much rather have yache or lum so he kills more than one thing.

as for excadrill, hes basically limited to HO only and needs sand to do what he does best. as i already stated, megachomp can work without sand. the power boost it grants is amazing, but its not like a a STAB base 100 attack and base 100 coverage move coming off of a base 170 attack stat is weak or anything. also megachomp works best on Bulky offense or offensive balance.