The Next Best Thing... [V2]: Set Discussion

[KM]

ok so

i'm not sure exactly how i should approach this, because it's a support set, and its viability can really only be shown by showcasing it with the one Pokemon it's good with so I guess i'll have to do that ?_?

Tornadus (M) @ Damp Rock
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 88 HP / 252 SpA / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rain Dance
- Tailwind
- Hurricane
- Taunt

Blastoise @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Water Spout
- Dragon Pulse
- Dark Pulse
- Aqua Jet

Used this combo on my rain team in the manaphy era a ton, and it wrecked shit up. Essentially, the idea is to set up Rain Dance, Taunt to prevent non-damaging moves and Hurricane to deal impressive damage until the turn where you think you're going to die, where you press Tailwind. Then, the behemoth that is Water Spout Mega-Blastoise comes into the field.

Here is a comprehensive list of the things that can switch in on Mega-Blastoise.

252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey in Rain: 321-378 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic in Rain: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

... that's about it.

Here is a comprehensive list of the things that can outspeed and revenge kill / damage Mega-Blastoise.

252 SpA Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise: 154-183 (51.5 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (scarf)
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise: 240-284 (80.2 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (scarf)


...
...
...

it's sort of good

 

[The Haymaker]

First off, please don't laugh and say "Specially defensive Tornadus LOL noob," as Tornadus is quite sensitive (and he will blast you with STAB Hurrica- err...Air Slashes). Introducing RestTalk Tornadus, aka HAXFlinchmasterFlex-OP, a completely untraditional take on the baddest genie of them all (literally).

Tornadus (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 248 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature (-Atk, +SpD)
- Air Slash
- Dark Pulse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

FlinchmasterFlex is a downright intimidating genie; just look at those muscles. In fact, Tornadus is so intimidating that opponents flinch quite often when he attacks them. Air Slash is the STAB move of choice, since it is pretty accurate, deals consistent damage, and threatens Grass- and Fighting-types. Dark Pulse is unconventional, but when you consider this Tornadus' also unconventional spread, it makes sense. Dark Pulse allows Tornadus to take out the numerous Psychic- and Ghost-types that litter the tier, 2HKO'ing nearly all of them. FlinchmasterFlex has a good chance against faster Pokémon it usually couldn't even dream to beat, such as Alakazam and Starmie. The final two slots are Rest and Sleep Talk, which receive priority from Prankster. Priority recovery is awesome, which lets it deal damage before having to recover against faster threats. Prankster Sleep Talk synergizes amazingly well with the two attacking moves on this set, giving Tornadus a chance to flinch anything lacking faster priority, including Choice Scarf users, as well as functioning as a revenge killer to pick off frail and weakened threats 66.7% of the time while it is asleep, which is pretty cool.

The EV spread maximizes special bulk while still saving 8 EVs for Speed to allow it to outspeed max Speed neutral base 80's, such as Specs Chandelure. Even with no SpA investment, Air Slash still hits just hard enough as it needs to, always OHKO'ing 0/4 Scarf Mienshao, which can't OHKO it first without Stealth Rock, thanks to its HP investment. Tornadus can tank most neutral hits on the special side, especially from weak attackers or walls and flinch thru them or stall them out. 32 Def EVs moved from SpD can be used to take Psyshocks and handle Alakazam a little better, but the reduction in special bulk is noticeable.

This Tornadus loves 3 things: burn, paralysis, and most of all, hazard removal support so it can properly check what it is supposed to. Starmie is an amazing partner to spin and take out Fighting-types packing Stone Edge and threats like Arcanine. Parashufflers to spread paralysis are great to really make the opponent rage when HAXFlinchmasterFlex-OP comes into the fray, while burns allow Tornadus to take hits much more easily on its weaker defensive side.

Notable Calcs

252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Tornadus: 163-193 (45 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tornadus: 180-213 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Tornadus: 172-204 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Tornadus: 159-187 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Tornadus: 177-211 (48.8 - 58.2%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tornadus: 191-226 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (but everyone will use Ice Beam)

252 Atk Mienshao Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tornadus: 284-336 (78.4 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Tornadus: 110-130 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tornadus Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 146-174 (36.1 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tornadus Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mienshao: 294-348 (108.4 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Tornadus Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Houndoom: 108-127 (37.1 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Tornadus Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant: 162-192 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Tornadus Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 152-180 (58.2 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Tornadus Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 160-190 (61 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Tornadus Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

*Remember, if Tornadus survives two attacks, it can switch in, attack, then recover before taking a 3rd hit. It emergency checks threats it can 2HKO but can't switch into by taking a hit, attacking, Resting, and having a 2/3 chance to win with Sleep Talk. This works with a couple of powerful physical attackers, like Hawlucha (even though he is OHKO'ed 75% of the time), for example.*

Take that, Landorus-T.

 

[kokoloko]

SpD tornadus is good..... but with bulk up.

Kitten Milk's set is like super standard lol thats what i used in my rain team. that post sounds more like its promoting water spout megablaster anyway lol

my entry is:

Tornadus @ No Item / Chesto Berry
Prankster
Careful
248 HP / 212 SpD / 48 Spe
- Acrobatics
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Bulk Up

Prankster Bulk Up, Rest, and Sleep Talk makes this a pretty cool set. Chesto is good if you don't mind having to Rest once before attacking, otherwise just use no item. 48 Spe beats Adamant Heracross, but you can go up to Jolly Hera if you don't mind losing a ton of bulk (needs 52 Speed Jolly). You can also dump the 212 into Def to switch into Hera/Mienshao easier, but 1. then you can't set up on bulky waters as easily and 2. Heraross is leaving in 4 days so fuck it.

 

[The Haymaker]

SpD tornadus is good..... but with bulk up.

Kitten Milk's set is like super standard lol thats what i used in my rain team. that post sounds more like its promoting water spout megablaster anyway lol

my entry is:

Tornadus @ No Item / Chesto Berry
Prankster
Nature and EVs to come, I need to calc some stuff.
- Acrobatics
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Bulk Up

Prankster Bulk Up, Rest, and Sleep Talk makes this a pretty cool set. Chesto is good if you don't mind having to Rest once before attacking, otherwise just use no item.

I actually considered this same exact set, so I'm glad someone else entered it. They have two different purposes, and I found that a normal RestTalk set is a bit more reliable for its role than the BU RestTalk set is as a sweeper. It's by no means a bad set, but I felt split between what to invest in, so I'm curious to see your EVs. Nice job! :)

 

[psVoltage]

Tornadus (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Air Slash
- Focus Blast
- Grass Knot

I didn't know what to put other then bulk up or RD Hurricane so heres a specs set that worked for me sorta.
...
:]

 

[Bouff]

voting is now open!

 

[The Haymaker]

I like a lot of these sets, particularly the physical support take on Tornadus, a set purely focused on Tailwind. It's just unique enough to warrant its own separate set. Close 2nd is between CoolStoryBrobat and kokoloko but my vote goes to...

Sage of the 6.

 

[Sage]

Gonna have to go with Kokoloko used that set myself its godly

 

[KM]

kokoloko the idea was that you can run just those two pokes on their own outside of a rain team because of the specific way the two interact with each other. besides, tailwind rain dance tornadus isn't standard at all (because most rain sweepers use swift swim anyway so tailwind is pretty redundant). blastoise is obviously the impressive part of that duo, but i was showcasing it in a support set and that was the best way to actually show why it's good

anyway, i'm voting for kokoloko because that set is almost as good on torn as it is on torn-t, and it's just cool in general.

 

[The Haymaker]

that set is almost as good on torn as it is on torn-t, and it's just cool in general.

It's actually considerably better than on Tornadus-T, solely because of Prankster. In fact, any RestTalk set is better on Incarnate form, save for maybe some kind of defensive pivot set with U-Turn. I feel the reason you don't see this set more often is because of its lack of speed unless asleep and it taking huge chunks from strong special attackers and moderately powerful Thunderbolts and Ice Beams. It does, however, deserve more attention and is underrated as a sweeper. Sorry, just clarifying there.

 

[Aerow]

kokoloko

 

[Ununhexium]

Kokoloko

 

[So Dynamic]

Sage because I've faced tailwind torn paired up with Nidoqueen and it was pretty hard to handle.

 

[Sean B.]

Kokoloko

 

[Xyldaz]

Kitten Milk

 

[Bouff]

Sorry for the delay guys, something came up and I didn't really have time. Our winner is kokoloko!

Next victim is...

Suicune​

 

[KM]

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
- Tailwind
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

I don't have much experience using or fighting against this set, but it's self-explanatory enough. Tailwind supporter for tailwind teams, Calm Mind and decent coverage/SpA turns it into an offensive threat while still utilizing cune's great bulk. 216 Spe outspeeds Scarf Infernape at +2 and outspeeds Modest Chandelure without the boost.

a replay of the set in action: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-19680

You should really really ask user Meru if you want to learn more about this set !!!!! :)( @!

 

[Xyldaz]

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 196 HP / 252 SpA / 60 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]

This offensive Cune set is best when used with sticky web support. Stiky web teams often need a check to Fire Types or to things like Mega-Aero, and offensive Suicune is one of the better offensive bulky Water-type in the tier with like Milotic. The EV spread outspeeds base 100 like Shaymin of Celebi after webs.

replay showing how the set works: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-18693

 

[kokoloko]

cune @ chesto / Leftovers
EVs to come but max HP and mostly SpA
scald sub cm rest/ice beam

:)

 

[Sage]

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
- Tailwind
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

I don't have much experience using or fighting against this set, but it's self-explanatory enough. Tailwind supporter for tailwind teams, Calm Mind and decent coverage/SpA turns it into an offensive threat while still utilizing cune's great bulk. 216 Spe outspeeds Scarf Infernape at +2 and outspeeds Modest Chandelure without the boost.

a replay of the set in action: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-19680

You should really really ask user Meru if you want to learn more about this set !!!!! :)( @!

yay my idea got sniped, although clearly i wasn't the one to come up with it. Suicune's movepool is garbage, hard to come up with something.

Suicune @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Extrasensory
- Shadow Ball
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

Pretty cool surprise factor in my opinion, it can fuck up all the dry skin mons that try to switch into it, Jinx with Shadow Ball, Cacturne with Ice Beam, Toxicroak with Extrasensory. It should only be sued for the surprise factor as a lure as it can beat stuff like Slowbro that usually wins. It also still is bulky has hell with Max HP. This basically is a lure to most normal Crocune switch ins, and is decently powerful in its own right. It can't break stuff like Blissey and Goodra though, so it's not really a wallbreaker. So just basically come in on something Crocune sets up on then smack a switch in with a specs boosted coverage move or hydro pump. It doesn't OHKO Heliolisk but keeps it at a low HP and prevents it from switching in again safely.

On Dry Skin mons
252+ SpA Choice Specs Suicune Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cacturne: 378-446 (134.5 - 158.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Suicune Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Toxicroak: 424-500 (138.1 - 162.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
For all the noobs running AV Croak

252+ SpA Choice Specs Suicune Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jynx: 234-276 (86.3 - 101.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Suicune Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 132-156 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Common Suicune Switchins

252+ SpA Choice Specs Suicune Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 268-316 (68 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Suicune Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 250-296 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

pretty cool lure, it still is strong with Hydro Pump

 

[The Haymaker]

Suicune's got a really nice stat spread, a solid typing, but the one thing that holds it back is its shallow movepool. This set takes advantages of its few good attacking options and two fantastic moves that virtually every Pokémon learns.

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
- Surf/Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Substitute
- Toxic

This SubToxic set, a lá Heatran, takes a page out of his playbook. Although Suicune lacks a plethora of resistances, its naturally high bulk, especially CroCune, threatens to wall opponents and therefore forces switches, much like Heatran in OU. The goal of this set is to take a more offensive approach that capitalizes on these switches. Use Substitute on a predicted switch, then click the appropriate move to use on the switch-in while behind the Sub. Surf is reliable STAB, while Hydro Pump secures several OHKO's, Ice Beam surprises Grass- and Dragon-types that resist Suicune's STAB, and Toxic spreads poison and cripples walls and bulky Waters that can wall Suicune otherwise. Pretty simple yet effective.

EVs maximize Suicune's offensive potential and outspeed max Speed neutral base 80's, with the rest thrown into HP to improve its already excellent bulk a little and make its Substitutes a bit sturdier.

Scald is an option over Surf and Hydro Pump to beat Tentacruel and specially defensive Jirachi that wall this set, as they fail to break Suicune's Subs, even if Tentacruel packs Sludge Bomb, and both are worn down once burned. However, the power drop is noticeable, and it falls just short of having any chance to OHKO Mega Houndoom, Victini, or Choice Band Entei, for example.

I'll post some calcs later.

 

[Bouff]

alright, voting is up. i would wait for koko but the set doesnt need much explanation and ill only ask him to do it if he wins soooo

its also cause hes tl but thats besides the point :^)

 

[totoTavros]

Kitten

 

[newfren]

Kitten

 

[Venduria]

Milk