Don't use that, Use this
Approved by Jellicent
Approved by Jellicent
Throughout the gens, we have seen our fair share of pokemon. There are pokemon that dominate the metagame with an iron fist and theres pokemon that flat out suck. There are also pokemon that suck but people still use them anyway. The purpose of this thread is to educate newer players about which Pokemon are good, which Pokemon aren't, and why, ultimately leading to a better playerbase. Here is an example of how you should format your responses:
ADV
Don't use this:
Lapras @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 SpA
Bold Nature
- Ice Beam
- Roar
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Why it's bad:
Lapras was never all that good. While its ice typing is a great offensive type, its a bad defensive typing. It is weak to the common rock slide, and tbolt. It lacks a reliable recovery outside of rest talk and water absorb. All it really can do is tank hits and its ice typing is not doing it any favors. While it can actually pose of a threat to all cunes lacking hp grass/electric with its tbolt, its ultimately outclassed by other pokemon offensively and defensively. One such example is...
Instead, use this:
Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 SpD
Bold Nature
- Surf
- Haze
- Wish
- Ice Beam
Why it's better:
Other than heal bell, vaporeon is able to do anything lapras can do with greater effect. It is able to tank hits better thanks to his mono water typing. Its lower defense stat is not much of an issue since vaporeon lacks a physical weakness. It has a reliable recovery with wish and is able to support the team much more than lapras could. It can run haze over roar to keep pokemon like roar + calm mind suicune from being setting up while keeping you from roaring it away. Finally it benefits from the same ability making it a solid suicune switch in.
Conclusion:
While lapras is able to threaten switch ins with surf, tbolt and ice beam, lapras is not able to do the job its made to do which is tank hits from certain threats while supporting the team like vaporeon can. Lapras's higher defense is negated by its ice typing and it is not able to take as many hits as vaporeon because of its lack of a more reliable recovery.
Don't use that:
Venusaur
- Sleep Powder
- Razor Leaf
- Swords Dance
- Hyper Beam
Why it's bad: Venusaur just doesn't hit hard enough. Even after a Swords Dance, it struggles to OHKO Alakazam. Its set is also 100% predictable since this exact set is basically all it can do (maybe Body Slam instead of Hyper Beam if you're a total retard).
Use this instead:
Victreebel
- Sleep Powder/Stun Spore
- Razor Leaf
- Swords Dance
- Hyper Beam
Why it's better: Victreebel hits significantly harder than Venusaur on the physical side, guaranteeing an OHKO on Alakazam with +2 Hyper Beam and even sometimes OHKOing Chansey. The lower Defense isn't that big a deal since they'll typically be taking hits on their gaping special weaknesses anyway, and the lower Speed is largely irrelevant (the only difference is that Venusaur outspeeds Cloyster while Victreebel only ties with it). Victreebel also has the movepool to run a set without Swords Dance (Stun Spore + Wrap), which means you might take an opponent by surprise when what they thought was a tame Wrap supporter suddenly threatens to rain destruction.
Another for RBY OU, split into two cases:
Don't use that:
Hypno
- Hypnosis
- Psychic
- Thunder Wave
- Counter/Seismic Toss/Rest
Why it's bad: Hypno's role is pretty obvious; it's a bulky sleeper. The problem is, it's not very good at that. Hypnosis is only 60% accurate, so the whole point of a bulky sleeper - to ensure that sleep lands - is undermined. Hypno also has a grand total of 1 relevant resistance - Psychic - and somewhat underwhelming bulk in general. There's also the issue of "but what does it DO?" - after it's thrown sleep, Hypno's kinda derpy since it can't break other Psychics or Chansey (so no offensive use), can't Recover (so it doesn't stick around), and can't Explode (so it can't be used to wallbreak) - as such, it struggles to do any better than going one-for-one with Hypnosis.
I occasionally also see people leading Hypno. Don't do this. Just don't. It's complete garbage as a lead since it loses outright to Jynx and Gengar (which will simply sleep it) and will often get smacked around pretty hard by Starmie and Alakazam thanks to Hypnosis' terrible accuracy (most Alakazam leads run Seismic Toss). That's all four of the common leads.
Use this instead:
Exeggutor
- Sleep Powder
- Psychic
- Stun Spore
- Explosion
Why it's better: You want a reliable sleeper? Here's your mon. Exeggutor has a more accurate sleep move, at 75% accuracy, and is bulkier on both sides than Hypno. It is weak to the common Blizzard, but in exchange it resists the common Earthquake as well as the rarer Thunderbolt and Surf. More importantly, Exeggutor can Explode. This means that it doesn't just trade 1-for-1, it can go 2-for-1 - and its STAB Psychic serves it very well here as it hits all the Normal-resists very hard. The amazing combo of reliable sleeper, Ground switch-in, and reliable Exploder makes Exeggutor one of the best Pokemon in RBY.
Alternatively, use this:
Jynx
- Lovely Kiss
- Blizzard
- Psychic
- Counter/Mimic
Why it's better: This is for the specific case of people leading Hypno. Jynx has Lovely Kiss, which is more likely than Hypnosis to land sleep immediately and avoid taking repeated, unanswered Seismic Tosses from an opposing Alakazam (additionally, Jynx forces out a sleeping Alakazam immediately with Blizzard, while Zam can just stay in on Hypno and try to wake up, starting the whole matchup over again). Jynx's Ice typing also makes things very awkward for an opponent; it means that a Starmie lead can't freeze it (by contrast, Starmie's got about a 14% chance to freeze Hypno with Blizzard before getting slept), but more importantly, Jynx's STAB Blizzard forces very defensive plays after sleep lands, and it stands a good chance of scoring a freeze before going down, again getting 2-for-1 (it's also just about the best Exeggutor counter in the game, if you want to play it as such). Jynx is also faster than Hypno; while this doesn't matter in most cases, it means that an opposing Jynx has an 83% chance to sleep Hypno first, while the Jynx ditto is obviously 50-50. Jynx does do fairly badly against a Gengar lead (67% chance of getting slept first, and Gengar can guarantee a tie with Explosion), but Hypno also does quite poorly with a 72% chance of being slept first if it goes for Hypnosis, or 81% if it goes for Psychic. So with better matchups against three of the four common leads (Alakazam, Starmie, opposing Jynx) and a similarly bad matchup against the fourth (Gengar), along with having something to do afterward (playing for a freeze with STAB Blizzard) Jynx is a far better choice for a sleep lead.
GSC
Don't use: Kingdra
It seems fine and dandy, a Pokemon with pretty much no weaknesses. Until you realize that its mediocre HP renders it 3HKOed by any decently strong STAB. Seriously, it takes a lot of damage from everything even remotely good at offense, even (especially) the stuff it's supposed to wall as a Water.
Use instead: Suicune
Suicune is better in almost every situation. Sure, it's weak to Electric, but no non-STAB Thunderbolts outside Gengar's can 3-shot, and I'd rather play for Thunder misses against, say, Nidoking than take 32-38% from its more spammable STAB like Kingdra does. I'd also rather be 3HKOed by Giga Drain than by Psychic from Egg, and take near-3HKO damage from Ttar Tbolt than Ttar Rock Slide. I think the only matchups where Kingdra does better are against Vap (and it only really matters if it's a weird HP Electric set), Gengar (which is convenient, but not a matchup you really need a water for), and Electrics (where it gets slightly less stomped, hardly a favorable matchup).
The one way you might get Kingdra to do something worthwhile is by using it as a Rain Dance + Hydro spam user. 288 SpA is just enough to possibly 3HKO Snorlax after the boost, and the lack of Thunder weakness means Electrics doesn't 2HKO, giving you time to 2HKO them in return. Even then, no coverage and the aforementioned disappointing bulk leave a lot to be desired.
ADV:
Don't use this:
Ninjask
-substitute
-baton pass
-silver wind
-swords dance
While ninjask's ability to set up subs and gain speed automatically is alluring, the fact that it is pretty much useless vs any phazer means its use should really be limited only to full baton pass teams (which you shouldn't use anyway) which have a way around this such as mr. mime. If running a pseudo baton pass team...
Use this:
Zapdos
-Agility
-Baton Pass
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power Grass
With stab tbolt and hp grass coming off of a ridiculous special attack, zapdos can scare off a number of phazers including swampert, suicune, skarmory, and even enemy roar zapdos (although to a lesser extent). It may not be able to get off the agility against every poke, as some force it out with attacks, but if you get it in against a poke you force out you can easily pass off an agility without having to worry about phazers.
ADV OU:
Don't use that:
Donphan @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Ghost] / Rest
- Rapid Spin
Why it's bad: Donphan can be good when played to its strengths, but this set (which is also commonly seen) utilizes none of them. I mean the concept is good, a spinner that can take on DDtar, hit Dusclops hard and resist Rock Slides from Aerodactyl. The problem with the above set is that:
a) DDtar is almost always used with Spikes support and Gengar spinblocker. This set fails to threaten bulky Gengar even with HP Ghost, and you can't really afford switching out from it more than two times, taking 2 layers of Spikes worth of damage each time.
b) Dusclops doesn't really enjoy the usage it once did. People managed to find ways around SkarmBlissClops cores ever since the BOAH era. As a consequence you'll never be able to take advantage of that strong EQ.
c) Even without a spinblocker you are still losing the Spikes war. Toxic Skarmory is all the rage these days and you can't really deal with it, other than passively resting.
Use this instead:
Claydol @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Psychic / Rest
- Rapid Spin
Why it's better: Claydol is the best spinner in OU for a reason. It resists both Rock Slide and Earthquake, doesn't take Spikes damage and poses an immediate threat to the most common spinblocker, Gengar. It also forces out Flygon/DDMence on the spot, both of which are common Spikes abusers. The fact that it doesn't take Spikes damage allows you to win the Spikes war most of the time, and while it can be said that neither Claydol can get through Toxic Skarmory, the Spikes immunity allows it to switch in with twice the frequency, as opposed to Donphan.
Final thoughts: Donphan has two niches that you should opt for instead:
1) Choice Bander with Rapid Spin. Can hit Gengar for serious damage this time, allowing you to spin more frequently (however this might need Wish support from Vaporeon/Blissey/Jirachi to have lasting power).
2) Phazer. Donphan can learn Roar, use it. Allows it to abuse Spikes itself and also buys it an extra Leftovers turn to make up for its lack of reliable recovery. Counter is also good in a Roar set as well for those Zapdos who think they can stay in to HP Grass you.
ADV:
Don't use this:
Crobat @ Choice Band
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Aerial Ace
- Hidden Power Fighting/Hidden Power Ground
- Shadow Ball
Why It's Bad: Although Crobat has a great speed stat and decent attack stat, it's main STAB is terrible in OU. Poison is useless or resisted by many commonly-used pokemon in the tier, such as Metagross, Jirachi, Gengar and Swampert, and none of Crobat's moves can even dent Skarmory, which means Magneton support is required. Ironically, Magneton is a good switch-in to Crobat, taking pitiful (or no) damage from 3 of Crobat's moves. Sludge Bomb's 30% chance of poison may seem like a great option to wear down bulky waters, but Swampert resists the move, defensive Suicune run rest (while some offensive variants are paired with Jirachi), and Milotic gets a boost in its defense with Marvel Scale. Unfortunately, Sludge Bomb just sucks, and Crobat's other moves just don't deal enough damage to warrant its use.
Use this:
Aerodactyl @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power Flying
Why it's better: On the other hand, Aerodactyl's main STAB, Rock Slide, is a lot more threatening than Crobat's. Rock Slide can 2HKO all flying-types and Gengar, while Aero's other moves can 2HKO everything else besides bulky waters and Skarmory. However, Aero can even break through said waters and Skarm in a pinch with that nice 27% chance of flinching. Unlike Crobat, Aerodactyl doesn't require Magneton to be effective, as most Skarmory cannot touch Aerodactyl bar Toxic, allowing Aero to fish for the crucial flinches with ease. Even good checks such as Swampert and Flygon get worn down by Double Edges over time, making Aerodactyl a lot more difficult to wall and/or play around than Crobat. With the same great speed stat, a better attack stat, and better moves and coverage, Aerodactyl can do everything Crobat does better.
ADV
Don't use this:
Salamence @ Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Hidden Power Flying
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
Why it's bad:
It's not a bad set as Fire Blast hits its main counter Skarmory, however it leaves it to be easily walled in general. Skarmory can easily be taken care of by Magneton anyway if you're really worried about that. DD FBlast mence just tries to do too many things at once imo.
Instead, use this:
Salamence @ Lefovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hidden Power Flying
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Dragon Dance
With Rock Slide, DD Mence becomes a lot harder to check. Things like Aerodactyl, Zapdos and even an opponent Salamence can't check you anymore. This set takes full advantage of Salamence's sweeping capabilities and as long as you can eliminate Skarmory and weaken Water types it will be a threat.
ADV
Don't use this:
evs: whatever
-whatever
-whatever
-willowisp
-whatever
Why it's bad:
Dusclops on paper looks pretty great, rapid spin blocker that has some actual bulk? count me in! It has the ability to spinblock against starmie which is kinda nice, but all of its drawbacks make this not really worth it. dusclops has no way to threaten anything other than willowisp, which means the opponent gets to choose what takes the wisp. On the flipside, its whole bulk thing isn't even that great. its hp is abysmal, which means even strong neutral attacks do good damage to it, it's weak to both spikes and sand, none of its resistances really do a whole lot for it, as the things that possess the moves it resists have other ways around it, and it has no reliable recovery. Even if you run restalk, it's so slow, and there are so many things that can 3hko it, that it can be really hard to get it back in the game once it goes to sleep. if you can even get it to rest in the first place. These traits combined make it so you're basically playing 5-6, just so you can spinblock starmie and claydol to an extent. I don't think any team needs spikes badly enough to make this worthwhile, especially since there is a decent chance that either, A they don't have a starmie/claydol, or B you can't get spikes up.
Use this instead:
evs: bulky
-thunderbolt
-ice punch
-whatever
-whatever
Why it's better:
Gengar unlike dusclops is fast, and has some pretty great coverage to back up its great spA. This means that not only can it clean up lategame, but also that it actually takes advantage of spikes by forcing switches. It's unpredictable unlike dusclops, it can rely on status moves such as willowisp AND hypnosis to scare off otherwise good counters such as metagross and snorlax, it can increase its coverage with fire punch and giga drain, or even explode/ destiny bond to get a surprise kill on something that was giving its team trouble. This means that it is useful even if spikes don't get down, and that it is even more useful than clops when spikes are up since it actually abuses them. The other huge advantage gar has over dusclops is levitate, which means that even though it is fairly frail, it can actually have greater longevity. Its speed also makes it better at avoiding attacks as it can dish out damage before taking it, unlike dusclops who is always going to have to take an attack to dish out a willowisp. It can't spinblock effectively vs starmie, and claydol is a bit shakey, but thanks to its other advantages, it is by far the superior spin blocker.
Rules:
-Don't use this thread just to bash certain Pokemon.
-Don't post obviously bad examples.
-Try to refrain from posting about a Pokemon if it isn't receiving much usage in OU at the moment, since the purpose of this thread is to inform about bad or outclassed Pokemon or sets that get more usage than they deserve.
-Please stay on topic.
-Make sure to back up your arguments with relevant information. As in more than just a sentence or two.
-All usual rules of the OU subforum still apply.
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