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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread V2
- Thread starter KM
- Start date
- Status
No offense, but I find this logic to be flawed.
You just admitted that Smeargle is integral to a broken playstyle, and yet you insist to rank it no higher than B+ because it is a niche playstyle. Why? I understand that GeoPass requires a team built around it to an extent and that it is also not a playstyle we wish to encourage, but ignoring it just because it is niche does not seem like a good approach. After all, this is the UU Viability Ranking Thread. If Smeargle is absolutely necessary for the best team archetype in the tier to succeed, (one that is FAR more consistent than something like Swagger ever was by the way,) then we can't just ignore it and call it a B rank Pokemon just because we feel it an unhealthy presence.
Due to the massive team support that Smeargle gives right now, A rank does not seem like a stretch to me, even if S rank is a bit ridiculous due to team support being necessary. I can certainly understand that if the council intends to take action in regards to GeoPass soon, people might be hesitant to raise Smeargle's ranking, but otherwise we can't turn a blind eye to it just because we want it to go away.
Do you guys think Jolteon should be considered to move up to B or B+ ranked? With Togekiss and the likes dropping, I feel Jolteon has a niche over Raikou in the sense that it can speed tie Crobat, hit relatively hard (Can go specs as well), and has good coverage. It also has Volt Absorb which stops Victini from locking itself in Bolt Strike and the likes.
The most important reason is because Jolteon beats most Togekiss, especially with Rocks up.
The most important reason is because Jolteon beats most Togekiss, especially with Rocks up.
As much as smeargle is a very crucial member to this playstyle, you can't just place it in a rank because of this. Smeargle has several flaws that hold it back from supporting its reciepent that other teammates would need to mitigate to let it set up and pass reliably. 55/35/45 bulk is awful, and can't run a sash if it's using geomancy. Its base 75 speed isn't all that impressive either. It would need support such as memento, screens, and tailwind, which are common on geopass teams. Because of this, you shouldn't judge it on its Geomancy set, since it's too unreliable to set up without support. Smeargle should be judged on its more reliable role as a lead set with spore/dark void, rocks, sticky web, and smash pass.
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Still outsped by Adamant Megadactyl and highly susceptible to Scarfers, on top of being ridiculously physically frail. If you're looking for more coverage, Heliolisk is a better option, since it gets Surf, Grass Knot and Focus Blast, which are definitely more useful coverage moves in the UU tier. Raikou can wall Togekiss, has much more bulk by comparison and can run a much wider variety of sets.
Keep Jolteon C, thanks.
Well I came here to make a post about Rhyperior but it turns out it's already sitting at B+ rank, well-deserved imo, checking Fire-types (with emphasis on checking), Crobat, most of the new electric-types (even those that run HP Grass to an extent), and Togekiss if you don't get too unlucky means it's really not as overshadowed by Swampert as it was in the previous metagame.
Another Pokemon I could see rising is Goodra, it's still a pretty "meh" tank that kinda sits there don't get me wrong but I've found myself running it lately if only because of the increasing popularity of Shaymin and Roserade. Having a special tank that doesn't die to Specs Seed Flare / SubSeed Shaymin and isn't set up fodder for Sleep Powder + Spikes Rose is pretty damn niche if you ask me, not to mention the immunity to Smeargle's Spore. It also has a pretty cool and overlooked 100 base speed stat that lets it do cool stuff like creeping those popular fast Mega Blastoise and Nidoqueen. I think it blends in well with the B- crowd, a lot of which are niche counters to stuff (Cacturne, Esca...)
Another Pokemon I could see rising is Goodra, it's still a pretty "meh" tank that kinda sits there don't get me wrong but I've found myself running it lately if only because of the increasing popularity of Shaymin and Roserade. Having a special tank that doesn't die to Specs Seed Flare / SubSeed Shaymin and isn't set up fodder for Sleep Powder + Spikes Rose is pretty damn niche if you ask me, not to mention the immunity to Smeargle's Spore. It also has a pretty cool and overlooked 100 base speed stat that lets it do cool stuff like creeping those popular fast Mega Blastoise and Nidoqueen. I think it blends in well with the B- crowd, a lot of which are niche counters to stuff (Cacturne, Esca...)
I'm sorry but what happened to the "usage doesn't matter" argument?
And where do we draw the line between a legitimate playstyle and a gimmick if both are equally successful?
Gimmicks tend to be heavily matchup based and/or require your opponent to be a complete moron. They're also dependent on the surprise factor and probably won't work twice on an opponent if you battle them again.
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Usage doesn't equal viable, but it can be a sign of viability. Compare 4th Gen Ambipom in UU to Heatran in OU. Ambipom was shit-tier, but you still saw it an inordinate amount, while Heatran was #1 in usage at the end of HGSS and was probably the best Pokemon in the tier. However, just because a Pokemon isn't common does not mean that it isn't good. Deoxys-D was UU for a time and broken in OU, so it essentially merited an A+ or even S ranking despite having such extremely low usage in OU.
Alternately: Kitten, Lochie, and whoever else that I can't think of at the moment are in charge now instead of Limitless and to them, if a Pokemon isn't common/doesn't fit in a large amount of team archetypes then they think it isn't viable.
All in all, I'm torn between Kitten's stance and people who think Smeargle deserves A+/S. A broken Pokemon is broken regardless of how niche its one broken set is, but is that enough for a high ranking? I think this conversation in general is pretty pointless since Kitten has made it clear nothing is going to change his mind.
Alternately: Kitten, Lochie, and whoever else that I can't think of at the moment are in charge now instead of Limitless and to them, if a Pokemon isn't common/doesn't fit in a large amount of team archetypes then they think it isn't viable.
All in all, I'm torn between Kitten's stance and people who think Smeargle deserves A+/S. A broken Pokemon is broken regardless of how niche its one broken set is, but is that enough for a high ranking? I think this conversation in general is pretty pointless since Kitten has made it clear nothing is going to change his mind.
I think people really overblow the objective brokenness (e.g. the chance that if you use the denis team, you'll win) of that playstyle, and I feel as though some of you might have misunderstood me when I said it was broken.
It's broken in the same way that Venomoth Baton Pass is broken - elements of the playstyle lend itself to an unreasonable expectation in order to hard counter it, but in practice it's also not 100% effective, nor does it work a ridiculous amount of the time. The amount of 50/50s and lack of counterplay that VenoPass and GeoPass bring to UU make the playstyle broken because it doesn't rely on any form of skill,not broken because it's "overpowered", per say.
As such, a B+ ranking recognizes Smeargle's niche in the tier, as a B ranking recognized Venomoth's in the tier. On the ladder, GeoPass is incredibly fucking annoying, but over the long haul it's not going to perform infinitely better than any other team - in fact, it's not all that good in the long run. However, the element of luck and matchup rather than skill that it exemplifies makes it nearly uncounterable in many situations, and this is what leads to it being effective. This extreme effectiveness is super showy, getting a 6-0 sweep with espeon or togekiss makes the opponent feel like that's broken as shit, whereas managing to beat the playstyle does very little to convince you otherwise. If you break through with a crit, or guess correctly on a 50/50, or something of that ilk, and that allows you to win, your immediate reaction isn't "I just beat them because their team isn't good", its "wow, i'm so lucky that I managed to break through that". In this sense, GeoPass appears more objectively broken than it truly is.
So then, a B+ ranking accurately places Smeargle's role (and, if this were his only role, it'd probably be even lower). GeoPass is a niche and ultimately not wildly successful playstyle that relies entirely on luck and matchup. It's annoying, it's broken, but it's not overpowered, and I won't pretend that smeargle is some godsend that will allow you to win all of your games, because it won't.
Moreover, just because a Pokemon is integral to a playstyle does not mean it is that playstyle. Abomasnow allowed Hail last gen, but it didn't make it S rank by itself. If Sand were very good (as it is right now), Hippowdon wouldn't be immediately moved to S because of that. We have to analyze a pokemon's viability outside of its niche, mostly.
It's broken in the same way that Venomoth Baton Pass is broken - elements of the playstyle lend itself to an unreasonable expectation in order to hard counter it, but in practice it's also not 100% effective, nor does it work a ridiculous amount of the time. The amount of 50/50s and lack of counterplay that VenoPass and GeoPass bring to UU make the playstyle broken because it doesn't rely on any form of skill,not broken because it's "overpowered", per say.
As such, a B+ ranking recognizes Smeargle's niche in the tier, as a B ranking recognized Venomoth's in the tier. On the ladder, GeoPass is incredibly fucking annoying, but over the long haul it's not going to perform infinitely better than any other team - in fact, it's not all that good in the long run. However, the element of luck and matchup rather than skill that it exemplifies makes it nearly uncounterable in many situations, and this is what leads to it being effective. This extreme effectiveness is super showy, getting a 6-0 sweep with espeon or togekiss makes the opponent feel like that's broken as shit, whereas managing to beat the playstyle does very little to convince you otherwise. If you break through with a crit, or guess correctly on a 50/50, or something of that ilk, and that allows you to win, your immediate reaction isn't "I just beat them because their team isn't good", its "wow, i'm so lucky that I managed to break through that". In this sense, GeoPass appears more objectively broken than it truly is.
So then, a B+ ranking accurately places Smeargle's role (and, if this were his only role, it'd probably be even lower). GeoPass is a niche and ultimately not wildly successful playstyle that relies entirely on luck and matchup. It's annoying, it's broken, but it's not overpowered, and I won't pretend that smeargle is some godsend that will allow you to win all of your games, because it won't.
Moreover, just because a Pokemon is integral to a playstyle does not mean it is that playstyle. Abomasnow allowed Hail last gen, but it didn't make it S rank by itself. If Sand were very good (as it is right now), Hippowdon wouldn't be immediately moved to S because of that. We have to analyze a pokemon's viability outside of its niche, mostly.
Okay, I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate because there's a few flaws in your argument.
First: What in the world is luck-based about GeoPass? Sleep turns? Hoping your opponent doesn't carry one of the few hilariously scarce foolproof counters? As for being match-up reliant, arguing against a Pokemon or playstyle because of team match-up is a bullshit argument in this day and age because there will ALWAYS be match-up. This isn't HGSS anymore, it is physically impossible to account for every possible ladder-viable team combination with one six-Pokemon team. Ironically, Denis' GeoPass team is one of the very very very few teams that has virtually no problems with match-up. The only difference is whether or not they're carrying a Pokemon with Roar or Dragon Tail, and guess what, it has an answer to that too in having two BP recipients who negate both moves.
Second: It clearly HAS been proven to work in the long-run. People are taking this team and slapping the shit out of good players high on the ladder. Players wouldn't be pushing past 1600 and higher if it weren't working.
Third: Yes, if a Pokemon is integral to a playstyle, that means it is that playstyle. Ignoring the obvious examples of weather, what is Deoxys HO without Deoxys? People tried to use other Rock layers and Spike stackers, and they simply didn't work. Do you mean to imply that GeoPassing can happen without Smeargle?
First: What in the world is luck-based about GeoPass? Sleep turns? Hoping your opponent doesn't carry one of the few hilariously scarce foolproof counters? As for being match-up reliant, arguing against a Pokemon or playstyle because of team match-up is a bullshit argument in this day and age because there will ALWAYS be match-up. This isn't HGSS anymore, it is physically impossible to account for every possible ladder-viable team combination with one six-Pokemon team. Ironically, Denis' GeoPass team is one of the very very very few teams that has virtually no problems with match-up. The only difference is whether or not they're carrying a Pokemon with Roar or Dragon Tail, and guess what, it has an answer to that too in having two BP recipients who negate both moves.
Second: It clearly HAS been proven to work in the long-run. People are taking this team and slapping the shit out of good players high on the ladder. Players wouldn't be pushing past 1600 and higher if it weren't working.
Third: Yes, if a Pokemon is integral to a playstyle, that means it is that playstyle. Ignoring the obvious examples of weather, what is Deoxys HO without Deoxys? People tried to use other Rock layers and Spike stackers, and they simply didn't work. Do you mean to imply that GeoPassing can happen without Smeargle?
first:
match-up is absolutely crucial for geo pass teams as compared to other teams. while another team might have an unfavorable matchup, geopass straight up loses if it's against a competent player with something like spd rachi, mega aggron, taunt tornadus, etc. this acts as a permanent wall against its ubiquity and usability in the meta - these hard counters are always here to ensure that geopass loses, in a way that you can't just automatically counter teams like standard HO and bulky offense with just one pokemon.
second:
geo pass is not that good in the long run. if it were truly as overpowered as people make it out to be, the entire top of the ladder would be swarming with people who won all but a couple games in a sample size of hundreds, but this isn't the case. many teams, if played correctly, can work around geopass. it's hard as shit, but correct prediction and thinking ahead as well as the elements of luck involved in terms of speed ties / crits / 50/50s makes geo pass teams not even close to unbeatable. people pushing past 1600 with it is really not that impressive. I've gotten past 1650 with a team with fucking four weakness policy pokes. that doesn't make it good. it's not. it feeds off surprise factor, matchup, and anti-meta strategies, in a way similar to how geopass works.
third:
why are we ignoring the "obvious" examples of weather when they're absolutely the most relevant? Abomasnow or Snover is 100% necessary for a 5th gen hail team, "Deoxys HO" can easily adapt and use another, lesser, suicide hazard lead. I mean to imply the opposite of GeoPass being able to happen without Smeargle. It absolutely can't, that's why the main concept for dealing with it is to outright ban Smeargle. Howeer, just because thing A is necessary for event B to happen does not equate thing A with all of the effects of B. Without receivers like espeon and togekiss to pass to, GeoPass would be infinitely worse. Are we then meant to rank Espeon as high as possible because it sweeps at +2 / +2.5 / +2 / +2 while ignoring the fact that it requires immense support to get there? Of course not. The same applies for Smeargle.
the purpose of a viability thread is to measure the viability of individual Pokemon, not every single implication of every single one of their roles. it's that same reason that niche, but incredibly-good-with-team-support pokemon like dugtrio aren't ranked higher. this has been the policy for multiple generations across multiple tiers, and i'm not about to change it for one fleeting, niche playstyle that's overhyped and mostly irrelevant
match-up is absolutely crucial for geo pass teams as compared to other teams. while another team might have an unfavorable matchup, geopass straight up loses if it's against a competent player with something like spd rachi, mega aggron, taunt tornadus, etc. this acts as a permanent wall against its ubiquity and usability in the meta - these hard counters are always here to ensure that geopass loses, in a way that you can't just automatically counter teams like standard HO and bulky offense with just one pokemon.
second:
geo pass is not that good in the long run. if it were truly as overpowered as people make it out to be, the entire top of the ladder would be swarming with people who won all but a couple games in a sample size of hundreds, but this isn't the case. many teams, if played correctly, can work around geopass. it's hard as shit, but correct prediction and thinking ahead as well as the elements of luck involved in terms of speed ties / crits / 50/50s makes geo pass teams not even close to unbeatable. people pushing past 1600 with it is really not that impressive. I've gotten past 1650 with a team with fucking four weakness policy pokes. that doesn't make it good. it's not. it feeds off surprise factor, matchup, and anti-meta strategies, in a way similar to how geopass works.
third:
why are we ignoring the "obvious" examples of weather when they're absolutely the most relevant? Abomasnow or Snover is 100% necessary for a 5th gen hail team, "Deoxys HO" can easily adapt and use another, lesser, suicide hazard lead. I mean to imply the opposite of GeoPass being able to happen without Smeargle. It absolutely can't, that's why the main concept for dealing with it is to outright ban Smeargle. Howeer, just because thing A is necessary for event B to happen does not equate thing A with all of the effects of B. Without receivers like espeon and togekiss to pass to, GeoPass would be infinitely worse. Are we then meant to rank Espeon as high as possible because it sweeps at +2 / +2.5 / +2 / +2 while ignoring the fact that it requires immense support to get there? Of course not. The same applies for Smeargle.
the purpose of a viability thread is to measure the viability of individual Pokemon, not every single implication of every single one of their roles. it's that same reason that niche, but incredibly-good-with-team-support pokemon like dugtrio aren't ranked higher. this has been the policy for multiple generations across multiple tiers, and i'm not about to change it for one fleeting, niche playstyle that's overhyped and mostly irrelevant
Goodra's got Base 80 Speed, man. But I still cosign with you on this, it's kinda cool for stopping any special attackers that aren't Dragon or Fairy type. Honestly thing I hate most about Goodra is its physical Defense is so poor you can't even invest in it to comfortably sponge hits, unlike how Ampharos can. You know something's wrong when a resisted Flare Blitz from Scarf Darmanitan can still 2HKO you
I was suggesting Jolteon because a.) it benefits from coming in on thunder waves/electric movs, therefore it deters opponents from spamming Tbolt or the like, b.) it speed ties max speed jolly Crobat which is a great speed tier since it outspeeds most of the meta barring scarfers and mega-aero, but to compare a non boosted mon to scarfed mons isn't really fair.
Helo gets better coverage and an immunity to water, but always having to take a hit from raikou, azelf, etc really sucks.
*shrugs* I guess I think jolteon is a lot better than people give it credit for.
a) I guess it's okay at absorbing paralysis, but Jolteon's Electric immunity is all but nil considering that there aren't many Electric types (Pokemon or moves) flying around UU. Even if there were, Jolteon can't really do much back to them.
b) It's also good to mention that most Crobat do not run max speed Jolly and can beat un-Mega Evolved Aerodactyl
Jolteon does work well on a Volt Turn core with its existing niches, but frailty and lack of passable coverage prevents it from sitting in the B rank
Flygon for B- -> B or even B+
Flygon, personally, is an extremely underrated threat. Boasting amazing STAB combinations, access to coverage in the form of the Elemental Punches (not Ice Punch), and the ever-helpful U-turn, can be used to alleviate momentum from its team. Also, with Levitate, it is RESISTANT to all forms of hazards, meaning it can switch in over and over again, meaning it is one of the best Choice users in the game, and one of the most solid Defog users as well. However, all pokemon has its faults. Its 4x weakness to Ice, competition with other dragons and choice users, and Togekiss being IMMUNE to both its STABs, it doesn't have a lot on its side. It also can bring upon its access to EdgeQuake, meaning that it can hit Togekiss super effectively, which can 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 3HKO's bold variants with a small chance to 2HKO. To add to this, after a Defog use, it'll have near-perfect accuracy, meaning that Stone Miss becomes a whole lot more useful. It can also use Roost, boosting its longevity on a Defog set.
Plus, its shiny is so cool.
Here's the set I recommend using:
Flygon @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (Adamant for Scarf)
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Outrage / Dragon Claw
- Fire Punch
-or-
Flygon @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge / U-turn
- Defog
- Outrage / Roost
- Earthquake
Flygon, personally, is an extremely underrated threat. Boasting amazing STAB combinations, access to coverage in the form of the Elemental Punches (not Ice Punch), and the ever-helpful U-turn, can be used to alleviate momentum from its team. Also, with Levitate, it is RESISTANT to all forms of hazards, meaning it can switch in over and over again, meaning it is one of the best Choice users in the game, and one of the most solid Defog users as well. However, all pokemon has its faults. Its 4x weakness to Ice, competition with other dragons and choice users, and Togekiss being IMMUNE to both its STABs, it doesn't have a lot on its side. It also can bring upon its access to EdgeQuake, meaning that it can hit Togekiss super effectively, which can 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 3HKO's bold variants with a small chance to 2HKO. To add to this, after a Defog use, it'll have near-perfect accuracy, meaning that Stone Miss becomes a whole lot more useful. It can also use Roost, boosting its longevity on a Defog set.
Plus, its shiny is so cool.
Here's the set I recommend using:
Flygon @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (Adamant for Scarf)
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Outrage / Dragon Claw
- Fire Punch
-or-
Flygon @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge / U-turn
- Defog
- Outrage / Roost
- Earthquake
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Jacks0n
formerly grassycow
sorry but w/ toge everywhere flygon simply isn't that good.Flygon for B- -> B or even B+
Flygon, personally, is an extremely underrated threat. Boasting amazing STAB combinations, access to coverage in the form of the Elemental Punches (not Ice Punch), and the ever-helpful U-turn, can be used to alleviate momentum from its team. Also, with Levitate, it is RESISTANT to all forms of hazards, meaning it can switch in over and over again, meaning it is one of the best Choice users in the game, and one of the most solid Defog users as well. However, all pokemon has its faults. Its 4x weakness to Ice, competition with other dragons and choice users, and Togekiss being IMMUNE to both its STABs, it doesn't have a lot on its side. It also can bring upon its access to EdgeQuake, meaning that it can hit Togekiss super effectively, which can 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 3HKO's bold variants with a small chance to 2HKO. To add to this, after a Defog use, it'll have near-perfect accuracy, meaning that Stone Miss becomes a whole lot more useful. It can also use Roost, boosting its longevity on a Defog set.
Plus, it's shiny is so cool.
Here's the set I recommend using:
Flygon @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (Adamant for Band)
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Outrage / Dragon Claw
- Fire Punch
-or-
Flygon @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge / U-turn
- Defog
- Outrage / Roost
- Earthquake
Dugtrio for B+ --> A-
Seriously, that thing is so good now. Paired up with Togekiss, it can remove almost every check to it. And CB STAB Earthquakes are not something to play around with, especially when the opponent can't switch out. I know B+ is like "the rank to recognize a niche", but I think Trio is better than a niche.
Seriously, that thing is so good now. Paired up with Togekiss, it can remove almost every check to it. And CB STAB Earthquakes are not something to play around with, especially when the opponent can't switch out. I know B+ is like "the rank to recognize a niche", but I think Trio is better than a niche.
1) Hmmm... I was expecting Tini, Rachi and Bliss to be S Rank, what happened?
2) And why are Toge and Luke S Rank?
3) I nominate Doublade for B- or B because of it's ability to literally sit pretty in front of Fighting-types and Fairy-types that are eveywhere in this meta (it's hilarious to see opposing Fight and Fairies mindlessly launching attacks just for you to Rest up again), as well as having its weaknesses easily covered and even taken advantage of (Chandy for Fire, Luke for Dark, Pory/Toise/Krow for Ghost, Toge/Krow for Ground and Blissey for special attacks overall. It can even form nice cores in HydraBlade for bulky offense and BlissBlade for stall. Just takes this as a grain of salt, though.
2) And why are Toge and Luke S Rank?
3) I nominate Doublade for B- or B because of it's ability to literally sit pretty in front of Fighting-types and Fairy-types that are eveywhere in this meta (it's hilarious to see opposing Fight and Fairies mindlessly launching attacks just for you to Rest up again), as well as having its weaknesses easily covered and even taken advantage of (Chandy for Fire, Luke for Dark, Pory/Toise/Krow for Ghost, Toge/Krow for Ground and Blissey for special attacks overall. It can even form nice cores in HydraBlade for bulky offense and BlissBlade for stall. Just takes this as a grain of salt, though.
The really good Flygon set right now is the Defog set, but it struggles a little bit still. It looks like a great somewhat-Togekiss-resistant defogger + dragon, with its access to Stone Edge, high speed, and immunity to Thunder Wave. However, the problem is that it has incredible 4MSS if it runs Stone Edge and Defog - it really wants roost, but then this leaves it forced to run Earthquake and Stone Edge and forgo U-turn or a Dragon STAB, which disadvantages it over other defoggers like Crobat.Flygon for B- -> B or even B+
Flygon, personally, is an extremely underrated threat. Boasting amazing STAB combinations, access to coverage in the form of the Elemental Punches (not Ice Punch), and the ever-helpful U-turn, can be used to alleviate momentum from its team. Also, with Levitate, it is RESISTANT to all forms of hazards, meaning it can switch in over and over again, meaning it is one of the best Choice users in the game, and one of the most solid Defog users as well. However, all pokemon has its faults. Its 4x weakness to Ice, competition with other dragons and choice users, and Togekiss being IMMUNE to both its STABs, it doesn't have a lot on its side. It also can bring upon its access to EdgeQuake, meaning that it can hit Togekiss super effectively, which can 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 3HKO's bold variants with a small chance to 2HKO. To add to this, after a Defog use, it'll have near-perfect accuracy, meaning that Stone Miss becomes a whole lot more useful. It can also use Roost, boosting its longevity on a Defog set.
Plus, its shiny is so cool.
Here's the set I recommend using:
Flygon @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (Adamant for Band)
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Outrage / Dragon Claw
- Fire Punch
-or-
Flygon @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge / U-turn
- Defog
- Outrage / Roost
- Earthquake
It's definitely a cool and somewhat anti-meta mon at the minute, but I don't really see it being pivotal enough to warrant a higher B rank yet.
100% agreement with this, I should have done this a while ago. I've recently been running Baton Pass Togekiss + Dugtrio, and it's just ridiculous. As Jirachi / Mega-Amph / Raikou / whatever switches in, you BP out, trap them, and open the door for a shit-ton of other stuff to sweep. Moreover, it lessens the pressure Victini puts on offensive teams. It's still niche, but it's increasingly common and increasingly more useful, so the rankings should definitely reflect that. Dugtrio will be moved to A-.
1) Victini is S Rank. Jirachi is close to S rank, and I think an argument could be made for it moving up, but it's still a little very much a reactionary Pokemon that struggles with a number of threats in the tier. It did get significantly better, though, and that's why it moved up to A+. Bliss isn't S Rank because of how confining it is on teambuilding - its a massive momentum suck and set-up fodder for any team other than the most defensive, which makes it useful, but dangerous to use.
2. Togekiss is S Rank because it's the most versatile and threatening Pokemon in the tier. It has limited counters, and 90% of the counters it has are easily trapped and disposed of. It can run offensive sets with its great coverage, run standard NP sets with T-Wave and Roost, run defensive sets with options like Defog, Heal Bell, and Wish - it's basically Mew 2.0, except for with Serene Grace. Lucario is S rank due to how much better it got after the drops. It has even fewer defensive counters and checks now, and isn't forced to run dark coverage on either its physical or special set, allowing it to hit more things harder.
3. While Doublade is sort of a cool-ish Togekiss check, its super low speed and relatively low damage keep it from being a threatening offensive Pokemon. It isn't the defensive and offensive powerhouse it is in RU, it just falls short of taking the right hits and dealing the right amount of damage in practice. Also, the shift from Slowbro to mono-water types and Swampert really didn't help Doublade, who struggles to damage them at all. He also lost one of his main niches as a good Heracross set.
My mindset has been changed from "why the fuck is Toge there" to "holy fuck, it's Toge, run for the hills"
I totally agree with you. However, the fact that it is completely resistant to all forms of hazards means it can consistently use Defog without it actually being harmed by hazards over time is a HUGE plus. Other defoggers in the tier generally take a solid 25% off their health (most flying users) or lose to spikes damage (empoleon). Also, with its immunity to ground AND electric (which most other pokes share) it is able to get free turns to switch if a choice-locked electric type uses Volt Switch. Also, with many people going to Togekiss after flygon comes out, it is able to earn ANOTHER free turn to use Defog; meaning that it can reliably remove hazards off the field.
Crobat and Togekiss are considered the better option in terms of typing and stat distributions, but they need to be conserved throughout the match. Hence, resulting to use Roost. Flygon is more of an offensive defogger -- being able to remove them and possibly pivot out or take its luck on denting holes in the opponent, if not faint it. Defog / Stone Edge / U-turn / Earthquake is a solid coverage set, and considering the amount of fairies about (and like 6-7 dragons), it shouldn't rely on a Dragon Move to supply coverage ON THE DEFOG SET.
But damn, does Outrage hit hard.
Let's start more discussion, then.
Entei for B+ -> A-/A
Entei is arguably the best physical fire type in the tier right now. Its 115 / 95 / 100 offensive stats means that it is better than other fire types when comparing stats (such as Arcanine) and its got decent bulk to take a hit or two. It's main selling point is Sacred Fire -- a base 100 move with a 50% chance to burn is nothing to laugh about, considering that burns can completely make or break a game. It's also got access to ExtremeSpeed, which is always helpful in picking off threats.
The only thing REALLY letting it down is its coverage moves (only main ones are Iron Head and Stone Edge), but they still provide decent coverage. It still gets walled by Bulky Water types such as Jellicent and Blastoise because it can't hit them super effectively, unlike Arcanine, who gets Wild Charge. If you don't have a bulky water to take hits, it's very hard to wall Entei. It really began to shine after Slowbro left.
tldr: In summary, Entei is really underrated and it has the power and speed to be in the higher rank. The only thing that lets it down is its typing (horrid defensively, okay offensively) and its coverage, which is sub-par.
Entei @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Iron Head
- Stone Edge
- ExtremeSpeed
Entei for B+ -> A-/A
Entei is arguably the best physical fire type in the tier right now. Its 115 / 95 / 100 offensive stats means that it is better than other fire types when comparing stats (such as Arcanine) and its got decent bulk to take a hit or two. It's main selling point is Sacred Fire -- a base 100 move with a 50% chance to burn is nothing to laugh about, considering that burns can completely make or break a game. It's also got access to ExtremeSpeed, which is always helpful in picking off threats.
The only thing REALLY letting it down is its coverage moves (only main ones are Iron Head and Stone Edge), but they still provide decent coverage. It still gets walled by Bulky Water types such as Jellicent and Blastoise because it can't hit them super effectively, unlike Arcanine, who gets Wild Charge. If you don't have a bulky water to take hits, it's very hard to wall Entei. It really began to shine after Slowbro left.
tldr: In summary, Entei is really underrated and it has the power and speed to be in the higher rank. The only thing that lets it down is its typing (horrid defensively, okay offensively) and its coverage, which is sub-par.
Entei @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Iron Head
- Stone Edge
- ExtremeSpeed
- Status