XY UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

[Sage]

Alright nice job Kitten getting this running, I'm gonna fire off some noms I have for the new meta. This post is focusing on S rank since that is most important atm.

Jirachi: S rank: to put it simply Jirachi is a god in this meta game. Faster than Togekiss who it walls to no end, it has like 7 viable sets,
U-turn, stealth rocks, we all know it's one of the most dominating threats. Sub toxic, choice scarf,
calm mind, it does everything.

Lucario: stay S rank Nasty Plot no longer had to run dark pulse, Swords Dance doesn't need Crunch thanks to Mew and Slowbro leaving the tier, it can use ice punch for Gligar and Nidoqueen, Bullet Punch for Mega Aero and Sableye, and Flash Cannon to actually break fighting resists. Still best set up sweeper in tier.

Mega Aerodactyl: S rank It can revenge kill so many threats, it has amazing coverage between Stone Edge, Earthquake, Aerial Ace, Aqua Tail, and Crunch. It can stop Bulky Waters who attempt to switch in by taunting on the switch in or just Defogging, Roosting, or getting up Stealth Rocks and switching. The support capabilities are what pushes the offensive mon into S rank imo. Also Pursuit is based and just annihilates Chandelure, -1 Victini, Alakazam, and even Espeon if it didn't get reflect up.

Suicune: S rank? Idk Slowbro gone is amazing for it. In the Nect Best Thing thread, people discussed it and realized it can run more than Crocune. Tailwind offensive, Specs, they can ruin usual checks like Toxicroak, Shaymin, and deters set up bait on those expecting a rest. I'm not sure if this is enough for S, but I think it could be.

Togekiss: A+ rank: It is very mega defining, somewhat deterring Hydreigon and Haxorus (double dance Hax is dead, and Scarf Hydreigon is walled), but the 4MSS syndrome is killer. It can Defog, NastyPass, T-wave flinch, but it any so them all, considering Roost and Air Slash are necessary on all sets (bar NP 3 attacks, but that needs web support imo) leaving you 2 slots for Nasty Plot, Dazzling Gleam, Thunder Wave, Drfog, Baton Pass, and Aura Sphere. Also there are Togekiss counters no matter the set one of which being Jirachi, also less common but decent mons like Diancie, with good checks like Raikou, NidoRoyals, and Mega Aggron. It's great, but not S imo.

 

[KM]

Alright nice job Kitten getting this running, I'm gonna fire off some noms I have for the new meta. This post is focusing on S rank since that is most important atm.

Jirachi: S rank: to put it simply Jirachi is a god in this meta game. Faster than Togekiss who it walls to no end, it has like 7 viable sets,
U-turn, stealth rocks, we all know it's one of the most dominating threats. Sub toxic, choice scarf,
calm mind, it does everything.

Lucario: stay S rank Nasty Plot no longer had to run dark pulse, Swords Dance doesn't need Crunch thanks to Mew and Slowbro leaving the tier, it can use ice punch for Gligar and Nidoqueen, Bullet Punch for Mega Aero and Sableye, and Flash Cannon to actually break fighting resists. Still best set up sweeper in tier.

Mega Aerodactyl: S rank It can revenge kill so many threats, it has amazing coverage between Stone Edge, Earthquake, Aerial Ace, Aqua Tail, and Crunch. It can stop Bulky Waters who attempt to switch in by taunting on the switch in or just Defogging, Roosting, or getting up Stealth Rocks and switching. The support capabilities are what pushes the offensive mon into S rank imo. Also Pursuit is based and just annihilates Chandelure, -1 Victini, Alakazam, and even Espeon if it didn't get reflect up.

Suicune: S rank? Idk Slowbro gone is amazing for it. In the Nect Best Thing thread, people discussed it and realized it can run more than Crocune. Tailwind offensive, Specs, they can ruin usual checks like Toxicroak, Shaymin, and deters set up bait on those expecting a rest. I'm not sure if this is enough for S, but I think it could be.

Togekiss: A+ rank: It is very mega defining, somewhat deterring Hydreigon and Haxorus (double dance Hax is dead, and Scarf Hydreigon is walled), but the 4MSS syndrome is killer. It can Defog, NastyPass, T-wave flinch, but it any so them all, considering Roost and Air Slash are necessary on all sets (bar NP 3 attacks, but that needs web support imo) leaving you 2 slots for Nasty Plot, Dazzling Gleam, Thunder Wave, Drfog, Baton Pass, and Aura Sphere. Also there are Togekiss counters no matter the set one of which being Jirachi, also less common but decent mons like Diancie, with good checks like Raikou, NidoRoyals, and Mega Aggron. It's great, but not S imo.

Actually, Jirachi would probably be S rank if it weren't for the fact that it can't reliably wall Togekiss. Fire Blast does a hefty chunk, 2HKOing specially defensive variants. This makes Jirachi fairly easy to wear down. And, on sticky web, where togekiss thrives, it makes Jirachi nothing more than another body to add to the count.

Mega aero is impressive, but not quite strong enough to be S rank. While it can check much of the offensive tier, it also unfortunately is checked by quite a lot of the defensive tier - stuff like Swampert, Hippo, and most other bulky waters can switch in without much fear and scare it out. Also, its status as a Mega makes it confining to teambuilding and its lackluster pre-mega makes it sometimes hard to get in the field.

Suicune is quite good in this meta, but whether its S rank has yet to be seen. There's a lot of reactionary Suicune checking in the form of Roserade, Raikou, and hard counters like Taunt Jellicent becoming a lot more popular - and while this is indicative of Suicune's effect on the metagame, it's not the only reason people are using these pokemon.

Togekiss is absolutely S rank. It doesn't have 4MSS as much as you'd think, as it gets amazing coverage with just Air Slash - the ability to run great sets with two or three attacks is just a bonus. Anything as versatile as Togekiss (nasty pass, np + 2 + roost, np + 3, np + air slash + roost + healbell / thunder wave) that threatens such a large part of the tier and can singlehandedly force stall to run 200 Spe Jirachi (i'm still salty about this) should absolutely be S.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

I will say Togekiss is great, probably one of the best Mons in the tier right now, but I do not think it should be S ranked. Unlike Lucario and Victini, Togekiss can run defensive or offensive sets; however, the offensive sets are only dominate against a stall or bulky offensive play-style, and even then it has trouble with things such as Mega Amp and Rachi.

Lucario and Victini can effectively destroy any type of team, whether it be offensive or defensive thanks to its neigh perfect stats. Lucario can set up NP or SD to sweep teams with its prority, or destroy fat teams with STAB CC. Victini can run a special or lure set which can really screw over stall teams that switch in answers to Physical Victini.

Togekiss can only beat slow teams. If it wishes to beat offensive teams, it needs paralysis support. This sounds simple, but the things that do beat Togekiss generally cannot be paralyzed. Pokemon such as Raikou and Jolteon can switch into Togekiss with relative ease, outspeed, and KO if rocks are up. If you run a pokemon dedicated to spreading paralysis, you are vulnerable to heal bellers, such as Umbreon, Florges, and Blissey.

Relying on the para-flinch is a powerful strat indeed, but Togekiss the power to set up a NP if the team puts on offensive pressure. With things like Jirachi being more and more popular, I can't see Togekiss being something that is as dangerous as Lucario, which can basically sweep late game if it gets +2. Togekiss has a tougher time getting to +2 because Kiss 1.) Is weak to SR 2.) Has average speed, and 3.) can't fullfill a utility role as much as people make it seem.

If you run a bulky sweeper, you need Roost, NP, Air slash, and Heal Bell. You HEAVILY rely on that 60% chance which is never a good thing.

If you want to run a sweeper for late game, you need NP, Air Slash, Fire Blast, and Grass Knot. You lose the ability to switch into powerful hits.

If you want to run a defogger set, you need to run Roost, Air Slash, Defog, and filler. If you run Heal Bell, you lose to Rachi and Mega Amp, two very meta-defining mons. If you run Dazzling gleam, you lose to random shit like Toxic Florges and Swampert.

I think Togekiss is a menace, but not S-ranked. Feel free to disagree *shrugs*

 

[Sage]

Actually, Jirachi would probably be S rank if it weren't for the fact that it can't reliably wall Togekiss. Fire Blast does a hefty chunk, 2HKOing specially defensive variants. This makes Jirachi fairly easy to wear down. And, on sticky web, where togekiss thrives, it makes Jirachi nothing more than another body to add to the count.

Mega aero is impressive, but not quite strong enough to be S rank. While it can check much of the offensive tier, it also unfortunately is checked by quite a lot of the defensive tier - stuff like Swampert, Hippo, and most other bulky waters can switch in without much fear and scare it out. Also, its status as a Mega makes it confining to teambuilding and its lackluster pre-mega makes it sometimes hard to get in the field.

Suicune is quite good in this meta, but whether its S rank has yet to be seen. There's a lot of reactionary Suicune checking in the form of Roserade, Raikou, and hard counters like Taunt Jellicent becoming a lot more popular - and while this is indicative of Suicune's effect on the metagame, it's not the only reason people are using these pokemon.

Togekiss is absolutely S rank. It doesn't have 4MSS as much as you'd think, as it gets amazing coverage with just Air Slash - the ability to run great sets with two or three attacks is just a bonus. Anything as versatile as Togekiss (nasty pass, np + 2 + roost, np + 3, np + air slash + roost + healbell / thunder wave) that threatens such a large part of the tier and can singlehandedly force stall to run 200 Spe Jirachi (i'm still salty about this) should absolutely be S.

Sounds good i was tryna get some discussion, I guess I'm a little too lenient with S rank mons lol. I still think Mega Aero has a decent shot, but it's your call.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Togekiss is completely deserving of S Rank. It crushes stall with just Nasty Plot and Air Slash, and its bulk in tandem with Roost makes it relatively hard for stall teams to handle it. As for offensive teams, don't forget that Togekiss can do the paralysis duty itself. A set of Nasty Plot/Thunder Wave/Air Slash/Roost (aka the classic set from last gen) is incredibly useful, being able to set up reliably against slower mons while its bulk allows it to spread paralysis. Let's not forget about its lovely typing, which allows it to come in on things like Hydreigon for almost free and proceed to do work. Once Togekiss gets going, it can be quite hard to stop. In fact, the only way to reliably stop it is 1: Run an Electric-type or 2: Run Rhyperior. Even then, Togekiss has a lot of other ways to be used effectively. NastyPass is awesome, as always, and Togekiss can easily turn a special attacker like Mega Ampharos into a complete menace by simply passing a Nasty Plot boost to it. It is very versatile, and even though you do rely on that 60% chance for the bulky stallbreaker set, that's a pretty high chance and can easily be extremely clutch in many situations, even helping to take down a mon that would be tough for your team otherwise. You can easily handpick the moveset for your team's needs, Togekiss can do many roles so much that it's an asset to almost any team, ranging from a bulky sweeper, an offensive mon, a team supporter, etc.

So in a nutshell, Togekiss is the most versatile Pokemon in UU, is impressively bulky, threatens stall and in many cases offense, and thanks to its bulk and offensive presence is a threat in many circumstances. It is most certainly an S Rank Pokemon, and is pretty much the king of the tier.

 

[Jellied Eels]

Especially since almost all the pokes mentioned as counters to Kiss are trapped and killed by Dugtrio, can't switch into certain moves like Dazzling Gleam (Mega Ampharos) or Thunder Wave (Mega Aerodactyl), etc... Togekiss' ability to paraflinch its way through would-be hard counters simply cannot be compared with Jirachi, which may benefit from higher Speed, but has no way to boost its attack.

Obviously if you're trying to sweep or wallbreak with Togekiss (and although those sets are naturally going to appear more dangerous the Defog ones really offer stellar support) then you're gonna need some team support. But I don't think requiring team support means it's not S rank, I mean even Luke throngs best when it's used on Spikes stacking teams or when paired with Pursuit support or whatever. At the end of the day, very few Pokemons on any given team (and yes, against any team archetype) can actually stand up to Togekiss with proper team support ; generally you just have to Paralyze or wear down a one or two Pokemons. I fought a guy a while back that was supporting Togekiss with a Volt Switch Forry + BP Vaporeon + Dugtrio trapping core that did a damn good job of luring out and killing my checks to Togekiss. (guess how many times I used a variant of "support" in this paragraph)

Tbh I've always thought the so-called "4mss" was a bit of lame argument as well, I mean would Togekiss be better if it had a bare movepool and one viable set ? It can run a huge variety a 4-move combinations and pull them off really well, it's just a matter of knowing which pokes your particular set can beat and which one it can't, and supporting it from there. One of Togekiss' greatest strength comes from the fact that its counters and checks actually do switch around a lot depending on the set, and 4mss means your opponent is the one doing the guesswork.

 

[Zibbity]

The new UU metagame is nice with the Pokemon I said months ago should be moved up to OU and those few that didn't deserve OU uh....

Just curious why is Mienshao A+ given that Infernape is A? Nape is faster and get duel stabs. Nape's rank was S and A+ beforehand, what's his problem?

I notice at least three UU Pokemon ranked under C. Something like what is in the RU's Viability Thread, why not single them out and say they should move down in usage?

 

[KM]

there's no point singling them out because they deserve c rank, not a lower d rank

mienshao is better than infernape because reckless (or regenerator) LO shao is infinitely stronger than any of infernape's sets, and access to Knock Off and stuff helps too. You could make a case for ape at A+ if you have significant experience using it, but it has a number of flaws that hold it back in this meta (defensive typing, popularity of stuff like jelli and tentacruel, etc)

 

[Zibbity]

Infernape can switch in to Will-o-Wisps while Mienshao cannot. Nape does not get Regenerator however. My history of using Infernape is Jolly nature, Life Orb, Flare Blitz, Close Combat, ThunderPunch + Iron Fist boost, and filler.

and for those water threats, they are not safe switchins:
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 240 HP / 244+ Def Tentacruel: 208-247 (57.6 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Jellicent: 216-255 (53.5 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[silenced]

I'm fairly curious as to how Raikou managed to achieve A- rank when it used to be B- before the shift.

I mean, I get checking togekiss and crocune are great attributes, but I really don't feel that is enough to justify moving up that many places. The only good set it has is E-belt. Anything else...

SubCM. Hippo, swampert or blissey make this set a waste of time against stall or slower teams, while any offensive team is going to give you limited opportunity to ever get safely behind the sub.
Scarf: Far too weak. Unless your goal is to outspeed and KO scarf flygon with hidden power ice, you need a good 30% of prior damage on anything weak to its coverage moves/STAB before its threatened, let alone needing the event rash nature to hit hydreigon/krookodile with aura sphere.
Specs: Decent, but when your main STAB gets you trapped by dugtrio or krookodile, or SR set up fodder, or gives the nido's a free switch, that is not good.
LO: Wearing yourself down when you need the health to check things like togekiss just doesn't work well.
AV: Lacks resistances to utilize effectively, falls under the category of things that should not use this item.
CM + 3 attacks: I would argue this is outclassed by other wall breakers such as mixape, mixed hydreigon, mixed nidoking...

Pivoting is outclassed by both mega-ampharos and/or rotom-H who give a slower switch to something dangerous while having additional resistances through secondary typing.

Really just not seeing what makes Raikou so great when other mons can outperform it. If it must be rated highly, maybe B+ but certainly not A-

 

[Ghostbuster]

Infernape can switch in to Will-o-Wisps while Mienshao cannot. Nape does not get Regenerator however. My history of using Infernape is Jolly nature, Life Orb, Flare Blitz, Close Combat, ThunderPunch + Iron Fist boost, and filler.

and for those water threats, they are not safe switchins:
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 240 HP / 244+ Def Tentacruel: 208-247 (57.6 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Jellicent: 216-255 (53.5 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Suicune shits on nape's life

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Suicune shits on nape's life

+2 LO Grass Knot still does a lot :S

 

[Sean B.]

Suicune shits on nape's life

If Infernape goes for Nasty plot while you switch in Suicune it gets OHKOd by Grass knot.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 429-507 (106.1 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Ghostbuster]

Yeah that's right, i was just talking about the physical set Zibbity was talking about

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Feels like the comparison of Mienshao to Infernape is more of a glorified version of the whole Darm vs. Victini thing. Where one is less versatile (Mienshao/Darmanitan) than the other, it boasts much more raw power off the bat. However, the other (Victini/Infernape) is capable of running a wider range of sets and in turn be able to cut down on the amount of checks/counters it has to deal with immediately.

Like with Mienshao your main sets are Life Orb, Choice Scarf, Choice Band, and I guess some form of Sub/SD Pass if you're feeling bold, with the power of Reckless HJK being strong enough that it could 2HKO a nice chunk of the meta. Infernape on the other hand, while its main viable sets are Choice Scarf and Life Orb (Within Life Orb you have Nasty Plot + 3 Attacks, Swords Dance, All-out attacking, mixed), and the occasional Lead Ape, it's got enough moves to technically have an answer for everything you might want to throw at it after it gets in. Like Tentacruel and Jellicent as mentioned get bapped by Thunder Punch on physical sets, but mixed sets with Grass Knot and/or Nasty Plot manage to get past Suicune and Swampert. And even then, stuff like Earthquake/Stone Edge on all-out attacking sets mean Aerodactyl, Crobat, Victini, Mega Ampharos, and Chandelure aren't absolutely safe either.

It might seem like a big jump but basically (tl;dr): I'm saying Infernape's versatility compensates enough for its lack of power compared to Mienshao that they should probably be the same rank as eachother. (A+) And don't make a case saying Infernape's defensive typing is worse than Mienshao's, they both literally have the defensive stats of a wet paper bag, if you sneeze at one of them hard enough you can land a 2HKO. Only difference being Mienshao can probably live an uninvested Scald from something. And then get burnt and be useless the rest of the game anyway

 

[dodmen]

I'd like to nominate Machamp for A- rank. With both its strongest competitor and one of its best counters gone, this thing should definitely be higher up than B. It is now the only (viable) Guts Pokemon available to use in UU. Boasting a higher base Attack than Heracross and slightly higher overall bulk, Machamp becomes insanely strong with a Choice Band, and even more so after a Guts boost. Unlike it's (shitty) Assault Vest DynamicPunch spamming variant, Banded Machamp can reliably break through its supposed counters. Calcs for this set are shown below.

Clearly, this thing has the ability to smash through almost the entire tier. Again, this thing is stronger than Heracross, and also has the ability to run Adamant nature without fear since Jolly doesn't help it outspeed anything extra that it needs to. All it has to do is run speed to creep the wall of choice - 164 EVs will outspeed Florges, while max speed will outspeed Suicune.

In addition, Machamp can run a decent boosting set somewhat akin to Heracross's Swords Dance set. Using Bulk Up allows it to avoid being KO'd by some of the Pokemon that could potentially check it otherwise. However, the purpose of this set is somewhat diminished by the fact that using its main STAB move resets its Defense boost (and rarely will you ever get to use Bulk Up more than once). Nevertheless, the option is there. Calcs are shown below.

However, there are a couple factors which really hold this 'mon back from being as good as its insect counterpart. The most major of these is its below-average speed for an offensive Pokemon. While Heracross, too, had a middling speed compared to other offensive Pokemon in the tier, it could at least outspeed certain threats like Chandelure, Mega Blastoise, and others, while Machamp can only outspeed Mega Ampharos. Additionally, its lack of secondary typing severely hurts it. While the two main recipients of Heracross's Megahorn are now banished, its bug typing also allowed it to check Pokemon like Mienshao, Shaymin (though you were smashed by its coverage moves most of the time), and Krookodile. Machamp's single typing only really allows it to check Dark moves, although it comes with a handy neutrality to Stealth Rock, and Machamp's got decent bulk anyway.

Anyway, Machamp's actually a solid Pokemon overall now that it can run a Guts set without competition. While it's relatively easy to check offensively, it's extremely hard to switch into especially when burned. It's like Heracross in that with the right coverage move, it can 2HKO almost the entire tier. It can serve as a nice check to certain Pokemon given its usable bulk. Heracross, Slowbro, and Mew all leaving really helped its viability, and though it got a nice check in Togekiss, it should definitely be higher than B. I could see it as A- easily, though A would be cool too.

Choice Banded

Without Guts Boost:
252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 268-316 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 220-259 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 165-195 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 374-442 (100.2 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With Guts Boost:
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 316-373 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 402-474 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 329-388 (108.2 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 213-252 (52.4 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 248-292 (68.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bulk Up

(if you've managed to somehow keep your +1 when the check is brought in)

252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. +1 92 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 246-290 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aerial Ace vs. +1 92 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 236-282 (68.6 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. +1 92 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 200-238 (58.1 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Ununhexium]

Neither of those are relevant sets. If you want to use Machamp AT ALL you use AV. Yes, Heracross is gone, but there is still shit like Mienshao and Infernape.

 

[Sage]

Neither of those are relevant sets. If you want to use Machamp AT ALL you use AV. Yes, Heracross is gone, but there is still shit like Mienshao and Infernape.

Except that the fact that choice band Infernape and Mienshao are garbage sets, Machamp can switch on Willo's and Scalds with impunity, and Guts abuse with good natural bulk, unlike Shao and Nape. It also hits harder with Band than both of them. Choice Band is strong now that it isn't being outclassed by Heracross, the biggest reason Machamp was using Dynamic Pimp Slap and wasting Guts. B+ would be fine for me but I see dodmens argument for A-. Now a relevant threat and Stone Edge smacks Togekiss.

 

[slated]

Yeah I agree with this; mienshao and infernape need to run some sort of life orb set (or in the case of mienshao scarf is good too) but in the case of machamp, it has the bulk to run a choice band set and serve as a devastating offensive tank. When you have a mon which can a) tank hits 2 or 3 times better than most other viable fighting types in the tier and b) hit hard enough with close combat to 2HKO the mon which often serves as a fighting type check (florges) while also serving as a counter to crocune, one of the biggest threats now that its main counter is gone (heracross), that is most definitely viable and I agree it should go A+.

 

[dodmen]

Neither of those are relevant sets. If you want to use Machamp AT ALL you use AV. Yes, Heracross is gone, but there is still shit like Mienshao and Infernape.

I'm not sure if you actually read my post. The key point is that Machamp has passable bulk with which it can easily switch into Scalds and retaliate back with an enormously strong Banded Close Combat or Knock off. Neither Mienshao or Infernape would ever dream of switch into Suicune, for example, and in Mienshao's case, being burned is the last thing it ever wants to do. Neither Mienshao or Infernape really "check" anything, they can be used as scarfers (especially in Mienshao's case) or Life Orb attackers, but both of these items are really subpar on Machamp.

Also, I was kind of holding myself back from saying this in my other post, but Assault Vest Machamp is basically complete shit. You just get worn down, mildly annoy some walls with confusion, and maybe get lucky and roll a 2HKO on a Mega Blastoise.

 

[KM]

Feels like the comparison of Mienshao to Infernape is more of a glorified version of the whole Darm vs. Victini thing. Where one is less versatile (Mienshao/Darmanitan) than the other, it boasts much more raw power off the bat. However, the other (Victini/Infernape) is capable of running a wider range of sets and in turn be able to cut down on the amount of checks/counters it has to deal with immediately.

Like with Mienshao your main sets are Life Orb, Choice Scarf, Choice Band, and I guess some form of Sub/SD Pass if you're feeling bold, with the power of Reckless HJK being strong enough that it could 2HKO a nice chunk of the meta. Infernape on the other hand, while its main viable sets are Choice Scarf and Life Orb (Within Life Orb you have Nasty Plot + 3 Attacks, Swords Dance, All-out attacking, mixed), and the occasional Lead Ape, it's got enough moves to technically have an answer for everything you might want to throw at it after it gets in. Like Tentacruel and Jellicent as mentioned get bapped by Thunder Punch on physical sets, but mixed sets with Grass Knot and/or Nasty Plot manage to get past Suicune and Swampert. And even then, stuff like Earthquake/Stone Edge on all-out attacking sets mean Aerodactyl, Crobat, Victini, Mega Ampharos, and Chandelure aren't absolutely safe either.

It might seem like a big jump but basically (tl;dr): I'm saying Infernape's versatility compensates enough for its lack of power compared to Mienshao that they should probably be the same rank as eachother. (A+) And don't make a case saying Infernape's defensive typing is worse than Mienshao's, they both literally have the defensive stats of a wet paper bag, if you sneeze at one of them hard enough you can land a 2HKO. Only difference being Mienshao can probably live an uninvested Scald from something. And then get burnt and be useless the rest of the game anyway

I have to respectfully disagree with the Darmanitan + Victini / Infernape + Mienshao comparison.

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 120-141 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 114-135 (28.2 - 33.4%) -- 93.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
228 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 142-168 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- 70.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

At this point, victini pretty much directly outclasses Darmanitan, especially in terms of wall-breaking sets. Besides the infinitely better bulk / coverage that Victini boasts, it does more damage with its main stab anyway (and it doesn't kill itself in the process). Comparing this to Mienshao and Infernape's LO sets is kind of silly, given that they both have arguably good coverage, and Mienshao directly outdamages Infernape - and not in a little way, either. While Infernape can technically break through walls with elemental punches / etc, this requires a level of prediction and a potential for punishment that really isn't duplicated in Mienshao (yes, you have to fear missing / protect, but these are mostly uncontrollable variables, not 50/50s).

Is Infernape more versatile than Mienshao? Yes, in terms of sets. However, at this point, both physical and special infernape, LO, NP, SD, whatever, all have the same checks and counters - they have very limited defensive counters, and plenty of offensive ones. This hasn't really changed, other than the lack of the uber-rare psychic mew.

Mienshao just fits better into this metagame than Infernape does. Bulky waters abound, chandelure is increasingly more common, and there are a host of fast, offensive threats. Having a physical wallbreaker that can threaten a 2HKO on the most bulky of waters in the tier is a godsend, having one that does 35-40% is only decent.

I'd like to nominate Machamp for A- rank. With both its strongest competitor and one of its best counters gone, this thing should definitely be higher up than B. It is now the only (viable) Guts Pokemon available to use in UU. Boasting a higher base Attack than Heracross and slightly higher overall bulk, Machamp becomes insanely strong with a Choice Band, and even more so after a Guts boost. Unlike it's (shitty) Assault Vest DynamicPunch spamming variant, Banded Machamp can reliably break through its supposed counters. Calcs for this set are shown below.

Clearly, this thing has the ability to smash through almost the entire tier. Again, this thing is stronger than Heracross, and also has the ability to run Adamant nature without fear since Jolly doesn't help it outspeed anything extra that it needs to. All it has to do is run speed to creep the wall of choice - 164 EVs will outspeed Florges, while max speed will outspeed Suicune.

In addition, Machamp can run a decent boosting set somewhat akin to Heracross's Swords Dance set. Using Bulk Up allows it to avoid being KO'd by some of the Pokemon that could potentially check it otherwise. However, the purpose of this set is somewhat diminished by the fact that using its main STAB move resets its Defense boost (and rarely will you ever get to use Bulk Up more than once). Nevertheless, the option is there. Calcs are shown below.

However, there are a couple factors which really hold this 'mon back from being as good as its insect counterpart. The most major of these is its below-average speed for an offensive Pokemon. While Heracross, too, had a middling speed compared to other offensive Pokemon in the tier, it could at least outspeed certain threats like Chandelure, Mega Blastoise, and others, while Machamp can only outspeed Mega Ampharos. Additionally, its lack of secondary typing severely hurts it. While the two main recipients of Heracross's Megahorn are now banished, its bug typing also allowed it to check Pokemon like Mienshao, Shaymin (though you were smashed by its coverage moves most of the time), and Krookodile. Machamp's single typing only really allows it to check Dark moves, although it comes with a handy neutrality to Stealth Rock, and Machamp's got decent bulk anyway.

Anyway, Machamp's actually a solid Pokemon overall now that it can run a Guts set without competition. While it's relatively easy to check offensively, it's extremely hard to switch into especially when burned. It's like Heracross in that with the right coverage move, it can 2HKO almost the entire tier. It can serve as a nice check to certain Pokemon given its usable bulk. Heracross, Slowbro, and Mew all leaving really helped its viability, and though it got a nice check in Togekiss, it should definitely be higher than B. I could see it as A- easily, though A would be cool too.

Choice Banded

Without Guts Boost:
252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 268-316 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 220-259 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 165-195 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Machamp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 374-442 (100.2 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With Guts Boost:
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 316-373 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 402-474 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 329-388 (108.2 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 213-252 (52.4 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 248-292 (68.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bulk Up

(if you've managed to somehow keep your +1 when the check is brought in)

252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. +1 92 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 246-290 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aerial Ace vs. +1 92 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 236-282 (68.6 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. +1 92 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 200-238 (58.1 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While Machamp did get significantly better, I can't really see it at A-. I might just not have experience with it, but I do believe you're overselling it a little bit. Here's why.


The speed is much more of an issue than you're giving it credit. A speed tier as low as 55 means that Machamp is incredibly easy to revenge kill, and is a lot easier to switch in on. Nidoqueen, for example, can switch in to a weakened Machamp and threaten it. The same goes for a lot of other defensive and utility Pokemon with good speed tiers, as well as offensive Pokemon like Honchkrow and Chandelure. The omnipresence of Togekiss is also a huge factor, as it makes Machamp set-up bait unless it switches in on the Stone Edge.

I'm happy to move up Machamp to B+, but I'm yet unconvinced that it's worthy of A-.

 

[Chronobreak]

Nominating Smeargle for S Rank. This may seem to be be overstating the beagle, but, as of now, it spearheads the most unstoppable playstyle in the meta, named geopass, essentially making it Venomoth Cancer 2.0. While it's support movepool is tremendous, it's the passing of huge buffs + spore/dvoid is really what makes it so broken.

 

[Magcargo]

Nominating Smeargle for S Rank. This may seem to be be overstating the beagle, but, as of now, it spearheads the most unstoppable playstyle in the meta, named geopass, essentially making it Venomoth Cancer 2.0. While it's support movepool is tremendous, it's the passing of huge buffs + spore/dvoid is really what makes it so broken.

Kitten Milk stated on IRC that he wouldn't be moving Smeargle to S-Rank because GeoPass is more of a gimmick than an actual playstyle.

 

[Chronobreak]

Kitten Milk stated on IRC that she wouldn't be moving Smeargle to S-Rank because GeoPass is more of a gimmick than an actual playstyle.

Oh ok, I didn't know, sorry :)

 

[KM]

I strongly disagree with Lucario for S rank. While it's certainly a great pokemon it isn't something you can just slap onto any team and automatically make it better like Togekiss or Victini. I feel the best comparison to Lucario is Mega Absol, both are incredibly powerful sweepers that are also incredibly frail. Now obviously Lucario is much better than Mega Absol due to an amazing typing and reliable priority, but that's why it should go to A+ rather than A.

Also seconding Mega Aerodactyl for S. That thing checks or counters so much of the tier it's not even funny, and is so easy to put on a team.

I've already addressed why Mega Aero is staying A+, so I'll focus on Lucario. Lucario was easily an A+ rank Pokemon before the shifts, and it's only gotten far better in this meta. Not only has its Nasty Plot set gotten a huge boost, now that it's able to run priority and dual STAB, but its SD set also benefitted greatly from the tier shifts. Lucario fares much better against threats like Suicune than it does Slowbro and Mew, and it doesn't have to run dark coverage on its physical set anymore either. It can either opt for dual priority to eliminate Mega Aerodactyl and weaker fairies, Iron Tail to clobber Granbull and Aromatisse, or Ice Punch to surprise Gligar. This freedom makes checks and counters that were once solid far more shaky.

Lucario is especially notable as a Fighting type for its ease in beating Togekiss with any of its new coverage moves. It is very much deserving of S Rank.

I'm fairly curious as to how Raikou managed to achieve A- rank when it used to be B- before the shift.

I mean, I get checking togekiss and crocune are great attributes, but I really don't feel that is enough to justify moving up that many places. The only good set it has is E-belt. Anything else...

SubCM. Hippo, swampert or blissey make this set a waste of time against stall or slower teams, while any offensive team is going to give you limited opportunity to ever get safely behind the sub.
Scarf: Far too weak. Unless your goal is to outspeed and KO scarf flygon with hidden power ice, you need a good 30% of prior damage on anything weak to its coverage moves/STAB before its threatened, let alone needing the event rash nature to hit hydreigon/krookodile with aura sphere.
Specs: Decent, but when your main STAB gets you trapped by dugtrio or krookodile, or SR set up fodder, or gives the nido's a free switch, that is not good.
LO: Wearing yourself down when you need the health to check things like togekiss just doesn't work well.
AV: Lacks resistances to utilize effectively, falls under the category of things that should not use this item.
CM + 3 attacks: I would argue this is outclassed by other wall breakers such as mixape, mixed hydreigon, mixed nidoking...

Pivoting is outclassed by both mega-ampharos and/or rotom-H who give a slower switch to something dangerous while having additional resistances through secondary typing.

Really just not seeing what makes Raikou so great when other mons can outperform it. If it must be rated highly, maybe B+ but certainly not A-

This one's tricky, and I do think a case could eventually be made for B+, but Raikou is an incredible anti-meta poke right now.

Essentially, Raikou has always been the premier fast electric type. It has decent coverage, a great speed tier, and sufficient SpA to be a threat. However, up until recently, its role as a fast electric really just wasn't needed. Dragons were the big threats, not water set-up sweepers and Togekiss - and the flying types that were in the tier easily outsped it (Hawlucha, Mega Aero, Bat to a lesser extent). This forced it to run only its underwhelming Scarf set, which did sorta shit damage.

Now, however, Raikou finds plenty of times to come in and gain momentum - which is exactly what its purpose is. Being able to scare out threats like Togekiss allows it to reset momentum for offensive teams, and this comes into play infinitely more than it did before the jump.

Raikou is more of a reactionary poke to what became good in the meta rather than something that directly benefitted from the meta shift (although it does appreciate all the defoggers being weak to electric! [shut up flygon]), which makes it slightly harder to see how much better it got.

It may be that as the hype around Cune / Toge dies down a little bit (if it does) that Raikou will have a smaller niche, and then I would consider moving it to B+. For now, however, it's a great anti-meta mon that deserves to be in A-.

Nominating Smeargle for S Rank. This may seem to be be overstating the beagle, but, as of now, it spearheads the most unstoppable playstyle in the meta, named geopass, essentially making it Venomoth Cancer 2.0. While it's support movepool is tremendous, it's the passing of huge buffs + spore/dvoid is really what makes it so broken.

Adding onto what Magcargo said, I will not be skewing the rankings to represent Pokemon that are integral to a niche, but broken playstyle. In a similar vein as Walrein being ranked somewhere in the B ranks last gen UU even though it was the figurehead of one of the best (but rare, until the end) playstyles in the tier, I refuse to acknowledge Smeargle as anything more than a niche mon. Ubiquity is a really important aspect when considering overall viability, and I won't factor in a very, very specific and niche playstyle when considering the viability of any pokemon (e.g. I will not be ranking cottonee or moving whimsicott up). Smeargle is B+ because of its hazard set and because of its access to Spore, not because of the implications of its GeoPass set.

P.S. Magcargo i have a dick