Greninja [QC: 2/3]

[trc]

Overview
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Greninja is one of the best Pokemon in the OU tier, and it has always maintained high usage and viability regardless of the many metagame shifts that have occurred. With the introduction of Gunk Shot and Low Kick to its movepool, Greninja becomes an incredibly threatening offensive monster with few reliable answers. There are several factors that contribute to Greninja's dominance. The first, Greninja's impressive 122 Speed, is the most notable, as it enables Greninja to outspeed most of the metagame easily. The unique Protean is the second; an amazing offensive ability which gives all of Greninja's moves effective STAB, which means it doesn't face one of the typical problems of offensive Pokemon: weak coverage. Greninja's base Speed, Protean, and great coverage make it a very large threat to offensive teams, which typically don't possess Pokemon that can outspeed and OHKO it and most of the Choice Scarfers that do can't switch in, for example, Heatran and Landorus-T are weak to its most powerful move. Greninja is also the best offensive Spiker in OU, which gives it a valuable niche against defensive teams as well as offensive ones, as Spiking on predicted Chansey / Clefable switchins makes it harder for them to switch-in against Greninja's teammates. Greninja isn't unstoppable though, as the four attacks set can usually be taken on by common specially defensive walls, while the Spikes set can be taken on by the Pokemon that deal well against its three coverage moves of choice. Offense can also take it out with almost any Choice Scarf user as well as priority (Protean can actually hinder it in this regard). Regardless of these minor flaws, Greninja is arguably the best Pokemon in the tier, and it will always be threatening against offense.

Offensive
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name: Offensive
move 1: Ice Beam
move 2: Gunk Shot
move 3: Low Kick / Hydro Pump
move 4: Dark Pulse / Grass Knot / Hidden Power Fire
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb
evs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Naive

Moves
========

• Hydro Pump is Greninja's most powerful move against neutral targets and hits common Pokemon like Heatran and Tyranitar super-effectively, as well as being the best option against random Pokemon neutral to its other attacks like Skarmory and Gengar.
• Ice Beam gets Latios, Latias, Zapdos, Mandibuzz, 2HKOes offensive Mega Venusaur after some prior damage, and is useful against Ground-types like Gliscor and defensive Landorus-T as risking Hydro Pump missing is not recommended.
• A grass move is wanted, Grass Knot is stronger against Suicune and Mega Gyarados, Hidden Power Grass is better against Rotom-W. Both hit Azumarill for equal damage, a common check.
• Hidden Power Fire is an OHKO on Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor.
• Dark Pulse hits Psychic-types like Mew, Jirachi, and Slowbro.
• Extrasensory is cool to OHKO non-Choice Scarf Keldeo and 2HKO Mega Venusaur regardless of spread.
• U-turn allows Greninja to pivot out of Chansey and other switch-ins but inflicts LO recoil and is a pretty bad option overall.

Set Details
========

• Life Orb is the standard option for offensive Pokemon that aim to switch moves; without it Greninja is weak and with a Choice Specs Greninja loses all of its appeal.
• The EV spread and Timid nature are completely standard for a fast attacker.

Usage Tips
========

• Probably the simplest Pokemon to use.
• Get in, start spamming coverage.
• There is barely any need for prediction since you're fast.
• I guess use Ice Beam > Hydro Pump against Gliscor / defensive Landorus-T?
• What usage tips does this thing have ugh ;~;.

Team Options
========

• Things that can exploit Chansey or Clefable like Mega Heracross, Terrakion, Keldeo, Jirachi, or Heatran.
• Standard offensive Pokemon ;~;.

Spikes
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name: Spikes
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Hydro Pump
move 3: Ice Beam / Dark Pulse
move 4: Dark Pulse / Hidden Power Grass / Grass Knot
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

• Spikes is great to use on forced switches.
• Hydro Pump + Ice Beam gives pretty good coverage against a lot of Pokemon.
• Dark Pulse hits Mew, Jirachi, and other bulky Psychic-types.
  
• Hidden Power Grass hits Azumarill, Mega Gyarados, other Water-types.
• Grass Knot is stronger vs Suicune, Mega Gyarados.
• Ice Beam + Dark Pulse vs Dark Pulse + HP Grass / Grass Knot

Set Details
========

• Standard EVs + Standard item + Standard nature

Usage Tips
========

• When Greninja forces a switch, use Spikes.
• Against offensive teams wrecked by Greninja, just spam coverage because Spikes won't be necessary.
• Against defensive teams, use Spikes against Chansey / Clefable switch-ins, it helps them get worn down and helps the team.

Team Options
========

• Pokemon to capitalize on Spikes I guess (SD Scizor, SD Bisharp, other setup sweepers with priority).
• General offensive Pokemon oh my god this thing can be on any team.

Other Options
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• Shadow Sneak
• Torrent Physical
• Water Shuriken
• TSpikes

Checks & Counters
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• Chansey
• Blissey
• Clefable 96+ SpD
• VestZu
• Empoleon
• If HP Fire:
  • Mega Venusaur (bulky variants)
  • SpD Rotom-W
  • Cresselia
  • SpD Mew
  • Bulky Water-types such as Slowbro, Manaphy, Mega Gyarados, and Suicune
• If Grass move:
  • Mega Venusaur (bulky variants)
  • Cresselia
  • Ferrothorn
  • SpD Jirachi
  • SpD Mew
• If Dark Pulse:
  • Ferrothorn
  • Mega Venusaur (bulky variants)
  • SpD Rotom-W
  • Bulky Water-types such as Manaphy, Mega Gyarados and Suicune
• If Extrasensory:
  • Ferrothorn
  • SpD Rotom-W
  • Cresselia
  • SpD Jirachi
  • SpD Mew
  • Bulky Water-types such as Slowbro, Manaphy, Mega Gyarados, and Suicune
• AV Raikou
• AV Goodra
• AV Kyurem-B
• Mega Manectric
• Choice Scarf Keldeo
• SE priority depending on type

 

[trc]

yeah yeah ill finish this like tomorrow or day after, dont be a bitch pls Jukain :3

ill be more diligent now

 

[aim]

I feel extrasensory should be slashed on the final slot as well since that slot determines if you wanna hit slowbro/ferro/venu

 

[alexwolf]

Extrasensory is more appropriate for Moves imo. It's nice to OHKO Scarf Keldeo (a common check on offensive teams) and have an easier time against Mega Venusaur, but that's it. Not to mention that Ice Beam already 2HKOes offensive Mega Venusaur, so it's not like it walls you without Extrasensory.

 

[Albacore]

Mention that Grass Knot is a guaranteed OHKO on Defensive Starmie while HP Grass is not, and is also a more reliable option for hitting Tyranitar and Terrakion.

 

[SylveonIsCute]

Extrasensory definitely deserves a slash somewhere. It's greninja's best option against keldeo, utility gengar, conkeldurr, all mega venusaur variants, terrakion, and mega heracross.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Extrasensory definitely deserves a slash somewhere. It's greninja's best option against keldeo, utility gengar, conkeldurr, all mega venusaur variants, terrakion, and mega heracross.

Terrakion isn't a great example, as it is smacked by hydro pump and grass knot. Gengar has a chance to get OHKOd after rocks with hydro iirc, and ice beam 2hkos offensive mega venusar as alexwolf said. Yeah, conkeldurr is hit harder by extrasensory but I don't think it's a relevant enough target for a slash.

 

[Jukain]

esensory is really only to beat slightly weakened venus 1v1 which is pretty situational as well as revenge killing mega heracross. it's moves material at best.

trc add the spikes set and finish this skeleton ~_~

 

[SylveonIsCute]

Terrakion isn't a great example, as it is smacked by hydro pump and grass knot. Gengar has a chance to get OHKOd after rocks with hydro iirc, and ice beam 2hkos offensive mega venusar as alexwolf said. Yeah, conkeldurr is hit harder by extrasensory but I don't think it's a relevant enough target for a slash.

but if terrakion is sashed (which most are i find) then extrasensory is the best because it resists close combat and is more accurate then hydro pump, gengar has a chance to be OHKOd by hydro pump, but extrasensory is by far more reliable, i offensive venusaur can giga drain to avoid the 2hko so extrasensory is much more consistant, and how dare you say conk is not relevant D: Conkeldurr has feelings too ya know :'(

 

[boltsandbombers]

but if terrakion is sashed (which most are i find) then extrasensory is the best because it resists close combat and is more accurate then hydro pump, gengar has a chance to be OHKOd by hydro pump, but extrasensory is by far more reliable, i offensive venusaur can giga drain to avoid the 2hko so extrasensory is much more consistant, and how dare you say conk is not relevant D: Conkeldurr has feelings too ya know :'(

The point about venusaur is that if it switches into ice beam, it will be 2hkod most likely.
I mean, it's just not as common as it used to be - the meta has changed quite a bit.

 

[trc]

Jukain

 

[boltsandbombers]

Isnt grass knot more useful than HP grass (on the spikes set)? HP grass is really just for rotom-w, so idk :P

 

[Jukain]

slash grass knot on spikes

your c&c section needs some serious expansion, including ferro if you scout hp fire, scarf keldeo, kyurem-b in general espec av, spdef mew, venu assuming no esens, spdef gyarados, spdef rotom, mega manectric, manaphy, spdef jirachi, cresselia, and av raikou/goodra.

1/3

 

[Alfalfa]

Extrasensory is more appropriate for Moves imo. It's nice to OHKO Scarf Keldeo (a common check on offensive teams) and have an easier time against Mega Venusaur, but that's it. Not to mention that Ice Beam already 2HKOes offensive Mega Venusaur, so it's not like it walls you without Extrasensory.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 140-166 (38.9 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 140-166 (38.9 - 46.2%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[trc]

yeah i got to the end and become lazy

ready for 2/3

 

[Poek]

I think HP Fire deserves a slash on Spikes as it allows you to OHKO Skarmory after rocks most of the time + reks defog scizor and ferro ofc. Thoughts?

 

[Valentine]

2/3, close enough. i'm with aim in that, i think you're underselling extrasensory, but i don't mind.

 

[trc]

Hmm, I think I'll tack it on in the 4th slot, thanks n_n

 

[havokchomp123]

I think you are underestimating the potential of a torrent set. Here’s the one that I use:

Greninja: Suicide shinobi

#########

Name: suicide shinobi

Move 1: spikes/toxic spikes

Move 2: taunt

Move 3: water shuriken

Move 4: Surf/Hydro pump

Item: focus sash

Ability: torrent

Ev’s: 252 attack, 252 speed, 4 special attack

Nature: naïve

Moves:

Greninja’s high speed, access to taunt, and access to both spikes makes him a great suicide lead. The choice of either spikes or toxic spikes comes down to preference. Spikes are overall the better of the two, but toxic spikes can be useful for some more defensively based teams to stall. Taunt is there to shut down other hazard setters and taunters. The reason torrent is great on this set is because when u combine the focus sash and torrent, greninja can act as a decent revenge killer with a boosted water shuriken, surf, or hydro pump. The classic surf vs. hydro pump is entirely up to preference, although hydro pump is probably the better of the two since it secures more KO’s or damage, and greninja will not be staying in long so the lack of PP isn’t a serious issue. However, if you are shaky about the accuracy, surf can still be used for some moderate damage. And finally, while a protean greninja isn’t suited to use water shuriken, the torrent boost and ev’s provided can give greninja the ability to pick off some weakened foes and break opposing substitutes and sashes respectively. Some other options could include scald and ice beam. Scald gets the torrent boost and has the nifty chance of burning, but the power of hydro pump and surf makes scald inferior in this set. Ice beam is a good choice to allow greninja deal some damage to opposing grass types, and dent foes such as garchomp and gliscor, but without more special attack investment and the protean ability it is overall a subpar option.

Set details:

The ev’s provided are to make greninja maximize water shuriken’s power. The naïve nature is there to make it so that neither physical or special attacks made by greninja are hindered. Alternatively, some more special attack could be used to secure some KO’s with hydro pump or surf if there is a desire to do so.

Usage Tips:

Since Greninja are always protean, it’s important to keep that in mind while using this set. Protean greninja forces a lot of switches, so try to use this bluff to your advantage by setting up spikes on the switch. The focus sash will enable greninja to get off at least 2 spikes for the most part, and using the proper bluff will enable greninja to possibly get off 3. If greninja’s health is low or activates the focus sash, you can use either of your two attacking options to deal as much damage as possible. However, preserving greninja isn’t a bad choice, as the power provided by torrent can make greninja a great revenge killer with water shuriken. However, this should be done when hazards are off the field otherwise you should just try to set up more spikes or try pick off a weakened foe that is already on the field.

Please keep in mind this is not my full analysis as I still haven’t done enough damage calculations for water shuriken. And on a side note, ORAS is confirmed to have endeavor as a tutor move. Of course this will not apply to an analysis but it’s just something to keep in mind as we are transitioning into ORAS. And before one of you comments that i am wasting my time, I have used this set many times with great success. It might not be as good as protean, but it certainly is less predictable.

 

[boltsandbombers]

I think you are underestimating the potential of a torrent set. Here’s the one that I use:

Greninja: Suicide shinobi

#########

Name: suicide shinobi

Move 1: spikes/toxic spikes

Move 2: taunt

Move 3: water shuriken

Move 4: Surf/Hydro pump

Item: focus sash

Ability: torrent

Ev’s: 252 attack, 252 speed, 4 special attack

Nature: naïve

Moves:

Greninja’s high speed, access to taunt, and access to both spikes makes him a great suicide lead. The choice of either spikes or toxic spikes comes down to preference. Spikes are overall the better of the two, but toxic spikes can be useful for some more defensively based teams to stall. Taunt is there to shut down other hazard setters and taunters. The reason torrent is great on this set is because when u combine the focus sash and torrent, greninja can act as a decent revenge killer with a boosted water shuriken, surf, or hydro pump. The classic surf vs. hydro pump is entirely up to preference, although hydro pump is probably the better of the two since it secures more KO’s or damage, and greninja will not be staying in long so the lack of PP isn’t a serious issue. However, if you are shaky about the accuracy, surf can still be used for some moderate damage. And finally, while a protean greninja isn’t suited to use water shuriken, the torrent boost and ev’s provided can give greninja the ability to pick off some weakened foes and break opposing substitutes and sashes respectively. Some other options could include scald and ice beam. Scald gets the torrent boost and has the nifty chance of burning, but the power of hydro pump and surf makes scald inferior in this set. Ice beam is a good choice to allow greninja deal some damage to opposing grass types, and dent foes such as garchomp and gliscor, but without more special attack investment and the protean ability it is overall a subpar option.

Set details:

The ev’s provided are to make greninja maximize water shuriken’s power. The naïve nature is there to make it so that neither physical or special attacks made by greninja are hindered. Alternatively, some more special attack could be used to secure some KO’s with hydro pump or surf if there is a desire to do so.

Usage Tips:

Since Greninja are always protean, it’s important to keep that in mind while using this set. Protean greninja forces a lot of switches, so try to use this bluff to your advantage by setting up spikes on the switch. The focus sash will enable greninja to get off at least 2 spikes for the most part, and using the proper bluff will enable greninja to possibly get off 3. If greninja’s health is low or activates the focus sash, you can use either of your two attacking options to deal as much damage as possible. However, preserving greninja isn’t a bad choice, as the power provided by torrent can make greninja a great revenge killer with water shuriken. However, this should be done when hazards are off the field otherwise you should just try to set up more spikes or try pick off a weakened foe that is already on the field.

Please keep in mind this is not my full analysis as I still haven’t done enough damage calculations for water shuriken. And on a side note, ORAS is confirmed to have endeavor as a tutor move. Of course this will not apply to an analysis but it’s just something to keep in mind as we are transitioning into ORAS. And before one of you comments that i am wasting my time, I have used this set many times with great success. It might not be as good as protean, but it certainly is less predictable.

No. No. No. After over a year of xy competitive play, why do people still think torrent is a viable option on greninja? I'm sorry you put a lot of work into writing that up, but any greninja without protean is bad.
Also, TRC I would honestly remove torrent and physical greninja from oo, but maybe keep water shuriken as a gimmick to hit talonflame.
Edit: if a mod deletes the above post for obvious reasons, go ahead and remove this too, that's fine.

 

[Valentine]

monotype coverage on such a diverse pokemon is a sin. i really do applaud your efforts, as well as detailed analysis, but the current spikes build is better than your suggested set, havokchomp123. however, i do think you bring up important points, like how taunt and toxic spikes can both potentially work on utility greninja. the reality is that the more coverage you drop, the less threatening and viable inja becomes. you really only have room to run one utility move, which is why you only see taunt and spikes on separate sets.

 

[havokchomp123]

Man has it already been a year since those games came? I feel old. I get where the both of you are coming from and I will still admit that protean greninja is a better option, however, this set has one important aspect over the protean set: It's deception. I may not have ice beam, grass knot, etc. for coverage, but my opponent doesn't know that. This can greatly be used to your advantage along with water shuriken to get more layers of spikes off and get some surprise KO's with water shuriken. The amount of times I would have lost a game had it not been for water shuriken are abundant and that is why I feel this set is a viable option for greninja.

 

[SylveonIsCute]

havokchomp123 sorry man i tested your set but it's just not as good as the regular spikes set :(
even with the boost from torrent, the lack of any coverage whatsoever is just not very helpful for greninja

torrent-boosted water surikan it does have some merits in taking out fastter water-weak pokemon such as scarfdrill and adamant talonflame.

 

[Reymedy]

I'd mention Shadow Sneak, since it CAN be good in a pinch. Like, this way you can spinblock on a SandRush Exca, screw a Keldeo locked into Secret Sword, deal some damages to MAlak, ruin a Diggersby trying to RK you with Quick Attack, mess with Sucker Punches, get an immunity to Mach Punch vs Breloom/Conkeldurr, troll Medicham...
It's by no mean one of the best moves, but it actually has some merits so I think that it's worth a mention in the other options.

I also feel like Spikes + Dpulse + Hpump + HP Grass is a really good Spikes set, by dropping Ice Beam, you only lose the ability to threaten Dragonite and Breloom which are pokemons that are able to bypass Greninja's speed with their priorities anyway. You also hit Mandibuzz (and Venusaur on the switch, but who would be dumb enough to make reckless plays like that) less hard, I think that it's a good sacrifice for the Grass (or Fire) coverage.

I also think that the Spikes set should be the main one because it covers all the matchups (never a dead weight), while the 4 atks is mainly to shit on Bulky/Hyper Offense. Granted, the Spikes set kinda forces you to gear your team towards Hazards protection.

My 2 cents, hope it helped!

 

[havokchomp123]

I was thinking about shadow sneak and it can actually be pretty useful on greninja especially with the surprise factor. However, I think that spikes should be slapped on the main offensive set since the spikes set is essentially just the offensive set With spikes added, and i think it's a subpar option on an offensive set, a waste of a moveslot, and there are a lot of other spikers that could be used like klefki, froslass, and accelgor who have priority, better typing, more support moves, and speed respectively. In the other options I would put that greninja can function well as a suicide or anti-lead with high speed and access to spikes, toxic spikes, and taunt, which has some niches over the previously mentioned pokemon. Overall, this analysis is fine