np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]

[Zebstrika]

Is the Geomancy ban a better comparison then? I could argue that it was to save smeargle (well, try to save smeargle anyways, since it was the first thing retested) since smeargle is the only pokemon that got it, and it doesn't function any different than quiver dance other than working twice as fast with a power herb.

 

[Machi]

Is the Geomancy ban a better comparison then? I could argue that it was to save smeargle (well, try to save smeargle anyways, since it was the first thing retested) since smeargle is the only pokemon that got it, and it doesn't function any different than quiver dance other than working twice as fast with a power herb.

I think the difference here is that unlike Victini Smeargle encouraged a style of play altogether, a mechanical one, whereas the same cannot be said for Victini. Which is what they aimed to examine with Smeargle whether said play style, since he was such a key member, would still be broken with or without Geomancy - of course Smeargle got the boot so can't say Geomancy would end up being a precedent. Course this is more under a support characteristics than a sweeper/wall breaker but it can't be denied how vital Smeargle was to a particular team archetype and play style, that again is under the question of competitiveness with regard to responding to the type of teams it created than simply being overpowered (because you either had the moves/mons necessary to stop the chain).

 

[kokoloko]

i don't know about Calloflochie, but im open to banning v-create tbh. you guys should know by now i don't mind doing unprecedented shit to balance the tier.

 

[Jvasss]

i messaged calloflochie on showdown, and he was against it, i didnt ask him why

 

[Nysyr]

Banded Tini was never a problem, the issue was mixed sets that bop switchins with an Energyball/Grass Knot.

I still think SOMALIA's words from gen 5 still apply to Victini as it is now, even more so since there are more/better ways of checking it/other fire tyes.

 

[KM]

On one hand, I object to the banning of V-create as a matter of setting a precedent we can't possibly mean to keep up. In the same vein, we could retain Staraptor without Reckless, Crawdaunt without Adapatability, Zygarde without Dragon Dance or Coil, etc. Furthermore, it opens up the possibility of further tier manipulations, like taking existing Pokemon and making them stronger or weaker to fit some sort of viability mean that all pokemon fall into to have a truly "balanced" metagame.

Of course, it doesn't necessarily lead to this, it only creates precedent that makes it harder to argue against these ideas in the future.

There is also the issue of inconsistency - a series of complex requirements to use certain pokemon will confuse someone new to the tier. This, one could argue, is analogous to when Shadow Tag was banned - Gothitelle was still usable, but not the way it was in OU! However, this is a false conflation, as Gothitelle was practically unviable in the tier, and the purpose of the shadow tag ban wasn't to make it viable, merely to remove the offending playstyle.

I think that banning V-create is really just not worth it for the precedent it sets. Getting to use a V-createless Victini is nice, but it would signify a shift from banning to make the tier more balanced to nerfing to make the tier more balanced, and that's a shift I don't think will pan out well in the long run. What if our nerfs to Victini cripple it so much that it goes down below 3.41% usage and into RU? Are they meant to retain the V-create ban and further add a "Blue Flare" ban in order to retain Delphox's niche? It just seems a bit silly.

 

[The Quasar]

My little cent. I think right place for Victini is BL. It's easy to change its role with you are building around (Life Orb, Choice Band or Scarf), its STABs are lethal for the best UU pokemon. It outspeeds Hydreigon and it's so simply to calculate what it can do,:

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 441-520 (118.2 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 304-358 (84.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Victini Bolt Strike vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 265-312 (74 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Victini Bolt Strike vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Blastoise: 309-364 (86.3 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 577-680 (88.4 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 328-386 (91.1 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 811-954 (260.7 - 306.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Forretress: 951-1123 (269.4 - 318.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 728-860 (180.1 - 212.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 634-749 (156.9 - 185.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 320-376 (79.2 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's what I can do vs UU high rank pokemon.

That's too much to bear for UU. It's broken and force to build around a bulky Slowbro....anymore.

PS: No complex ban, thanks.

 

[kokoloko]

that's quite the slippery slope falqcy

On one hand, I object to the banning of V-create as a matter of setting a precedent we can't possibly mean to keep up. In the same vein, we could retain Staraptor without Reckless, Crawdaunt without Adapatability, Zygarde without Dragon Dance or Coil, etc. Furthermore, it opens up the possibility of further tier manipulations, like taking existing Pokemon and making them stronger or weaker to fit some sort of viability mean that all pokemon fall into to have a truly "balanced" metagame.

Of course, it doesn't necessarily lead to this, it only creates precedent that makes it harder to argue against these ideas in the future.

There is also the issue of inconsistency - a series of complex requirements to use certain pokemon will confuse someone new to the tier. This, one could argue, is analogous to when Shadow Tag was banned - Gothitelle was still usable, but not the way it was in OU! However, this is a false conflation, as Gothitelle was practically unviable in the tier, and the purpose of the shadow tag ban wasn't to make it viable, merely to remove the offending playstyle.

I think that banning V-create is really just not worth it for the precedent it sets. Getting to use a V-createless Victini is nice, but it would signify a shift from banning to make the tier more balanced to nerfing to make the tier more balanced, and that's a shift I don't think will pan out well in the long run. What if our nerfs to Victini cripple it so much that it goes down below 3.41% usage and into RU? Are they meant to retain the V-create ban and further add a "Blue Flare" ban in order to retain Delphox's niche? It just seems a bit silly.

this is way off base, though. there's a difference between banning "x on y" and simply banning x. if we were to ban v-create, it would be a blanket move ban, just like we had on swagger and (for a short while) geomancy. banning v-create isn't setting a precedent, as we have banned moves in the past for the betterment of the metagame. you can argue semantics all you want about "broken" vs "uncompetitive" but in the end its all the same thing, you're banning something to better the metagame--which banning v-create would do.

 

[DiscoDucky]

On one hand, I object to the banning of V-create as a matter of setting a precedent we can't possibly mean to keep up. In the same vein, we could retain Staraptor without Reckless, Crawdaunt without Adapatability, Zygarde without Dragon Dance or Coil, etc. Furthermore, it opens up the possibility of further tier manipulations, like taking existing Pokemon and making them stronger or weaker to fit some sort of viability mean that all pokemon fall into to have a truly "balanced" metagame.

Of course, it doesn't necessarily lead to this, it only creates precedent that makes it harder to argue against these ideas in the future.

There is also the issue of inconsistency - a series of complex requirements to use certain pokemon will confuse someone new to the tier. This, one could argue, is analogous to when Shadow Tag was banned - Gothitelle was still usable, but not the way it was in OU! However, this is a false conflation, as Gothitelle was practically unviable in the tier, and the purpose of the shadow tag ban wasn't to make it viable, merely to remove the offending playstyle.

I think that banning V-create is really just not worth it for the precedent it sets. Getting to use a V-createless Victini is nice, but it would signify a shift from banning to make the tier more balanced to nerfing to make the tier more balanced, and that's a shift I don't think will pan out well in the long run. What if our nerfs to Victini cripple it so much that it goes down below 3.41% usage and into RU? Are they meant to retain the V-create ban and further add a "Blue Flare" ban in order to retain Delphox's niche? It just seems a bit silly.

Addressing points:

I can see where you're getting at with the complex bans to keep things in UU, which I agree is absolutely stupid. However, Victini stands out differently as the sole user of V-Create currently in the tier.

Going back to your examples stated in the first paragraph, every single one of these Pokemon are because they are broken in their own character. By character, I mean that their typing, stats, and/or abilities in conjunction with their moves make them broken. There are a number of Pokemon that carry Reckless, such as Hitmonlee and Mienshao. What makes Staraptor toxic is its Brave Bird, speed tier, and Base 120 attack.

Essentially, the question becomes this: Is (ability/move) broken on the majority of Pokemon that have it? If the answer is no, then the Pokemon itself is inherently broken. IF the answer is yes, then we have a completely different issue altogether.

A good example of this would be the Gen V Sand Veil/Snow Cloak ban. As long as you could maintain and win the weather war, every Pokemon that had Sand Veil had an uncompetitive advantage over the opponent. Likewise, Shadow Tag is also pretty much broken on every single Pokemon that have it. Let's be honest here, when Goth was OU, we all had the great idea to use Gothorita with humongous success. Hell, even shit like Wynaut can be useful to fill a similar niche Wobuffet would have held if that thing was still UU.

Addressing V-Create, the move is broken on 100% of the Pokemon that have it in UU (Victini hur durr and Smeargle doesn't count), therefore it's not an inherent Victini problem (100s across the board, Fire/Psychic psh). The problem comes from the cancerous Base 180 Power that makes it ridiculously hard to handle. So no, it's technically still banning broken aspects of the game and not just nerfing and tweaking Pokemon.

Finally, I'm not quite getting where you were going with the "Ban Blue Flare" example. First off, Victini's Blue Flare is comparatively similar to Delphox's Fire Blast in power output:

252 SpA Choice Specs Victini Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 132-156 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 123-145 (32.8 - 38.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO

Essentially, Delphox is faster and Victini is bulkier. No one is trying to beat out anyone's niche. Besides, your point about retaining Delphox's niche is highly irrelevant. the Smogon hivemind bans things that are broken, not things that are usurping others niches. UU didn't ban Victini because it minimizes Darmanitan's niche. It's almost similar to saying that we should ban Darmanitan because it minimizes Arcanine's niche as a hard-hitting Flare Blitz attacker.

 

[Patrick1088]

Regarding V Create, i think the problem lies more in Victinis versatility. If it were just an issue with V Create, then Chandy, Houndoom, Arcanine, Rhyperior, Suicune and Alo are all great counters and checks. But, its the coverage in Bolt Strike, Grass Knot. zen Headbutt, Thunder that push it over thee dge. People may try to argue that Infernape has just as good coverage with better attacking stats and speed. But, the BP of Victinis moves allows it to plow through its usual checks and counters since it can safely spam bolt strike (equivalent of thunder, but physical) with relative ease wbile still having its phenomenal coverage and access to Flare Blitz as a physical move.option, which is still hard hitting and doesnt affect its coverage at all, since youll still need a fire check that isnt maimed by tinis coverage moves. So, banning V create is just masking the symptom, when the actual problem is Tini.

Thats just my opinion though...

 

[Machi]

Addressing points:

Addressing V-Create, the move is broken on 100% of the Pokemon that have it in UU (Victini hur durr and Smeargle doesn't count), therefore it's not an inherent Victini problem (100s across the board, Fire/Psychic psh). The problem comes from the cancerous Base 180 Power that makes it ridiculously hard to handle. So no, it's technically still banning broken aspects of the game and not just nerfing and tweaking Pokemon.

I don't exactly consider his stats or the fact that he is Fire type (STAB) as minor details as they are what makes Tini's V-Create so lethal. That said I don't believe it is necessarily that difficult to have an answer to V-Create, it has only 8 PP, when for most part it can be walled well by water types and inadvertently leaves Tini vulnerable to any revenge kills due to having his defenses and speed reduced. It may have power as a move but it certainly has drawbacks that essentially require it to be hit and run, which in turn can be exploited, that as powerful as it is as a move I don't feel the drawbacks are anything to scoff at when precisely it arguably balances the move. What is more irksome about Tini is as I mentioned earlier his coverage moves, especially Bolt Strike, which as noted by Patrick1088 allows him to muscle past would be counters into checks with very little opportunity cost towards his offense, Bolt strike is significant in this regard.

Honestly, if V-Create was as easy to spam as Scald or Knock off I'd be more for such a ban. However, I find the drawbacks to using the move any more than once to be problematic to even consider it broken, yes it is strong but it leaves you vulnerable and any well built team can easily play around that fact to their advantage.

 

[Pinkin Lark]

V-Create isn't the problem. It has high BP, but has the ability to miss (95 Acc move -- THEY DO MISS), only 8 PP, and a rather nasty recoil effect with the -1 Def/SpD/Spe. The problem is when Victini uses it, it comes from something with straight 100 bulk, speed, and attack; with an ability that completely removes that miss chance.

I'd rather see Vic completely gone, but I guess a ban for V-Create wouldn't be the worst.

 

[kokoloko]

victory star, friend. victini doesn't miss v-create. not that it would be relevant in the slightest though lol

 

[Karxrida]

that's quite the slippery slope falqcy

this is way off base, though. there's a difference between banning "x on y" and simply banning x. if we were to ban v-create, it would be a blanket move ban, just like we had on swagger and (for a short while) geomancy. banning v-create isn't setting a precedent, as we have banned moves in the past for the betterment of the metagame. you can argue semantics all you want about "broken" vs "uncompetitive" but in the end its all the same thing, you're banning something to better the metagame--which banning v-create would do.

It's actually not. Setting new precedent is a legitimate concern for the all reasons Kitten Milk stated on top of not being guaranteed to even make Victini balanced (see the first Baton Pass clause in OU).

 

[Mazz]

I like the idea of banning V-Create as a compromise to banning Victini.

I've spoken tons in the past as to why I think it should be banned, the majority of those arguments focusing on the bottleneck effect Victini has on teambuilding. The idea of a "nuclear disarmament" however, I think is the better idea. Seeing things with tons of options for coverage moves is old hat for this tier. There's nothing Victini can do that Mew couldn't, and in my own opinion, Mew was the much bigger threat since it had access to boosting moves and didn't have a Stealth Rock weakness. What separates Victini from Mew in terms of being a suspect is V-Create, and taking that away from Victini makes it more manageable at the very least.

During Victini's absence, I noticed on the ladder that teams were becoming much bulkier, and that most players in the UU Room on Showdown found this an excellent reason to complain. I like this idea of compromise simply because neither side gets what they want; players that want their nuke back will get it at the cost of its strongest move, and the players that want it gone will still have to deal with it, but it won't be as difficult. It's impossible to please both sides to this argument, and we've all seen this every time Victini has come up in suspect discussions.

I'm not big on the "complex ban" counter-arguments either, since this isn't one. kokoloko put it beautifully; getting rid of this stupid of a move is probably only going to make the metagame better. I understand that it could open the can of worms regarding other Pokemon and their respective moves, but nothing in this tier has that strong of a move with such a piss-poor recoil coming off that decent of an Attack stat. Would Victini be as difficult to deal with if it only got Flare Blitz instead of V-Create? Obviously not, which would suggest it might be something about V-Create rather than Victini itself.

EDIT: 1k :]

 

[Nas]

On one hand, I object to the banning of V-create as a matter of setting a precedent we can't possibly mean to keep up. In the same vein, we could retain Staraptor without Reckless, Crawdaunt without Adapatability, Zygarde without Dragon Dance or Coil, etc. Furthermore, it opens up the possibility of further tier manipulations, like taking existing Pokemon and making them stronger or weaker to fit some sort of viability mean that all pokemon fall into to have a truly "balanced" metagame.

Of course, it doesn't necessarily lead to this, it only creates precedent that makes it harder to argue against these ideas in the future.

Except this wouldn't be the case at all, because a blanket ban on V-Create is very different from a V-Create + Victini ban in terms of the precedent it sets. If we do ban V-Create, we ban it on the basis that it makes Victini broken. (Since Victini accounts for 100% of V-Create users in UU) Same reason we would ban any other move.

However, is V-Create really what makes Victini broken? It's a factor, for sure, but definitely not the entire reason. Would Victini be broken without it? Probably not. But do I like the idea of using V-Create as a scapegoat to keep Victini UU if it isn't the entire (or major) reason it's broken? No, because THAT would set a bad precedent.

 

[Patrick1088]

Mazz Victini can still dismantle most of the meta with just Flare Blitz as opposed to VCreate thanks to its fantastic coverage in high BP moves. Do we have any examples specifically showing tini stll cant be a nuke with Flare Blit and its usual coverage moves? A base 120 fire STAB is still going to hurt a good chunk of the meta... add in its coverage and its still doing thesame thing just without Vcreate...

 

[Mazz]

Mazz Victini can still dismantle most of the meta with just Flare Blitz as opposed to VCreate thanks to its fantastic coverage in high BP moves. Do we have any examples specifically showing tini stll cant be a nuke with Flare Blit and its usual coverage moves? A base 120 fire STAB is still going to hurt a good chunk of the meta... add in its coverage and its still doing thesame thing just without Vcreate...

Again the difference is 60BP, which is a fair bit honestly. And then there's the factor of real recoil, which would significantly wear Victini down with or without Stealth Rock on the field. OHKOing Pokemon means Victini could take up to 50% passive damage if just Stealth Rocks were in play, which puts it in range of Lucario's unboosted Extremespeed iirc. Tell me that isn't significantly easier to deal with.

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 337-397 (85.5 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 225-265 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I tried to pick something that can't really eat a neutral V-Create to rid any chance for bias (neither move does jack shit to things like Swampert, and things like Lucario get bodied regardless), and I'd like to think I found a pretty good example. Umbreon basically loses 10/10 to CB V-Create with any prior damage, whereas it could eat a Flare Blitz and retaliate with Foul Play, ending Victini's existence, or recover and let the recoil damage be Victini's undoing. The drop of 60BP accounts for ~33% of Umbreon's HP, which is a disgusting amount.

Bringing this back out of simple theorymons, banning V-Create would push Victini to running Blue Flare most likely, something Umbreon is much more adept at stomaching. Simply getting rid of such an absurdly powerful move allows things like Umbreon or Snorlax (gennerally fat mons with decent or great bulk on both sides) to become more than one-time checks to Victini. I want to bring back a point in my above post; taking V-Create away from Victini makes it a lesser Mew, which to me spells out that Victini becomes much more manageable than it currently is.

 

[GULLY]

I've been using a volt turn core of sp.def gligar av raikou and band tini and its been working really well. Its mostly centered around spdef gligar which checks mega amph and hydra well giving vic the ability to spam v create with out much retribution. Av raikou also benefits from it as mega amph counters the set so raikou has more free rain to swutch into things like blast or cune and get a volt switch off or fire a hp grass to bop things like pert. Try it.

 

[Patrick1088]

Personally, I dont think recoil should be brought up regarding Tini and FlareBlitz. Recoil was even worse on Staraptor just with its two STAB moves in DE and BB and it was SRweak as well with much less bulk and resist. granted reckless pushed it over the edge, but the argument that recoil hampers it or weakens in is kind of pointless. That luc calc shows that some other mon needs to take significant damage or be sacked in order to let luc rk with espeed.

Vcreate tini cqn be reliably checked by pursuit users even after stomaching a Vcreate like Snorlax and Mega Aero as you said before. Recoil FB lets Espeed luc RK , while the defense droplets bulky waters, fire resist and priority/pursuit RK vcreate tini.

Whether the HP is down or the defense is lowered by one stage, Tini is most vulnerable only after it destroys a poke.

Regarding Umbreon, its a chech at best since it cant switch in even on Flare Blitz. Victini can always U turn out (53% to umbreon) and just pick it off later. Flare Blitz may not hit as hard, but Victini is still literally 2hko the entire tier.

252 Atk Choice Band Victini Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 134-158 (41.1 - 48.4%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Flare Blitz vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 134-158 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Physically defensive swampy only takes 14% more damage with VCreate. I get it that its a big power difference, but when Tini is still doing almost the same amount of damage and still 2hkoing the same pokes with some having a little more wiggle room as your calc above showed, then why are we just considering banning its strongest move if very little will change?

 

[Thisbemyalt]

Well Patrick I have to disagree with you there Tini will not being doing the same old thing as a matter of fact its play style will change. The problem with tini now is that its gets off a huge hit and switches out with no problems (unless you trap it of course). With FB he can not do that tini will rack up recoil so there is a huge drawback in nuking a mon. Victini has no recovery and unlike raptor is hit by all hazards not just rocks. Also Tini is hit super effectively by ghost and dark type priority with no access to its own priority. Also raptor hit much harder than even tini does with a base atk 20 points higher, reckless, 120 power base dual stab, and even stab priority in Quick attack(idk how common QA is on raptor but it is still a decent priority). Overall Tini without V create is no where near as strong as raptor. You are also over looking one thing that I think would be interesting to look at, will tini stay a standard CB set if it can not nuke as well? Just think how much potential Tini could have if Nuking wasnt the best set anymore. I'm no trend setter so I can not sit here and give you a list of amazing sets but Im sure some very creative and skilled members of the community could make tini have a plethora of viable sets. I want the V create ban because without it I think tini would be a healthy addition to the meta game. Btw if anyone has cool new tini sets I would love to hear them.

 

[President Shinra]

Life Orb V-Create is stronger than CB Blitz, and gives you access to those coverage moves. I would honestly be for banning V-Create, because it basically has no risk associated with it (unless big ol' Rayquaza finds his way here) and lets us see if non V-Create Tini is still BL worthy.

Also, Victini and Raptor are not even close. No matter how strong Tini was, he's nowhere near Raptor, even with V-Create.

 

[Shiruba]

I'd like to think that these things are different.

Swagger was banned because it makes the game based on luck, whereas Geomancy would be good on practically anything that learned it unless it was named Ledian or something because of how amazing the effect is (not that it's banned anymore either, iirc, and I personally didn't really agree with that ruling to begin with), but V-Create is a very strong move that Victini gets STAB on (and Rayquaza uses to round out its coverage) - it's not inherently uncompetitive and its effects aren't inherently OP, either. This is a lot like the "Ban King's Shield" argument which would be used solely to have Aegislash remain in OU; this was overturned because King's Shield wasn't the single thing that broke Aegislash, just like no actual component of the BP chain was banned because they alone weren't the thing that broke the tier, and just like V-Create isn't the thing that breaks Victini, though it's a part of it. I'm aware that they're different tiers, but the thing is, there isn't really similar precedent anywhere else, and the situations themselves remain similar. Victini, if you believe it to be broken, is more broken for its sheer versatility and massive amount of sets than it is solely for its V-Create. While V-Create isn't negligible in terms of its importance (like King's Shield or Espeon), as V-Create has a lot of nuking potential, as we all know, V-Create isn't inherently broken on its own - its formerly UU abuser is.

 

[Patrick1088]

Recoil is a terrible argument to make saying FB Victini is less broken than VC Tini, thats my comparison to Staraptor who was on a different level altogether. But, the argument still stands that Tini can 2hko the entire tier with the appropriate move. Is VC spammable? Not really since the drops force him out pretty quickly and can be checked by speed creepers in base 70 and up. Is FB spammable? more easily than VC, but hp loss does force it out and wear it down.

People tried arguing recoil and SR wear down the other BL mons (staraptor, thundy-t, salamence, volc, etc..) but these arguments are completely irrelevant when we have good defoggers and wish support from aromatisse, florges, blissey, jirachi and alomomola. Every single one has good synergy with Victini.

Whether Victini is running VC or FB, you still have to answer the following questions..
1. Do you have a fire resist?
2. Do you have a fire resist that isnt 2hko by Victinis coverage move (bolt strike, thunder, grass knot)?
3. Do you have a poke that can check Victini (pursuit, sucker punch, rk)?

You still have to deal with these questions in a VCless meta. Its still going to hit hard and 2hko most of the tier where there are no safe switch ins.

VC is one aspect why tini is broken, not the sole reason. This is the argument im trying to make..

Edit: Thisbemyalt the only priority user that can cleanly Ohko tini is LO Honch. The rest of them (including mega absol) are close, but odds are in Tini's favor

 

[Nysyr]

252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 247-292 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 225-265 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Since when was it V-create that was broken? Stop joking, its the threat of being bopped by mixed sets that puts Victini on the edge.

Also I don't find Victini inherently broken, the drops from V-create and its weakness to pursuit/sucker punch and rocks are a great balancing factor. It is entirely your fault if you don't have a check to fire types (would you cry if you got smashed by LO/CB Arcanine/Darmanitan?). Victini punishes playing far too defensively and safe with switches, which I absolutely love.

And for the record, I rarely use Victini.